Lady Frances Drake, Aly Fell (2D)

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Old 12 December 2004   #61

what bothers me is the fact that just because some people didn't bash posh for his custom treatment you guys assume that we all don't care what happend in history..and just because he did the custome the way he thought it was fitting for the background story doesn't mean he isnt careing for history or doesn't think what happend in Germany was horrible either..

I hope you got my point FINALLY! I am from Switzerland - I had history and each time I see pictures of war and what not it makes me freaking cry but there was no sign over his painting promoting anything - it was you guys who interpreted things into this piece..

And it was other people who mentioned the likeness in a probably inapprobriate manner but that doesn't justify a bashing or calling the artist insulting names.
"Life beats down and crushes the soul, but art reminds you that you have one."

My website

Old 12 December 2004   #62
Declared for a very long time already.... and now my first post

The picture is very very beautiful. Also the Designe of the uniform is very good.
Do you have also a Wallpaper version from the picture?

Old 12 December 2004   #63
Originally Posted by Bigpet: What are you talking about?
It doesn't belong into an Art forum?
What do you think you learn when studying Art? Just how to paint?
I think it's frightening that so much people show such an ignorant attitude . I don't mean this picture in particular. But just saying talking about what a picture means or could mean for some people doesn't belong into an Art forum. It seems like you guys don't understand Art it's not only about painting beautiful pictures.

once again sorry for bringing this topic up in the thread of this picture and I don't doubt that Poshspices drawing shows artistic talent in some ways

thats the point in this place..its a discussion forum at the end of the day...if you wanna discuss the "piece" then fire away i said everyones entitled to an opinion and i'm sure you're aware not everyone will agree or disagree with yours or mine. debating ethics on an art forum doesn't belong unless its focussed in scope in relation to the piece otherwise it should be general discussion about art...thats all i'm saying really... essentially with emotional subjects like this there is a need to be clear about what people mean hence why politics/hate etc is not encouraged discussion and needs to be focussed to the art. often threads like this get out of hand because of the media type of discussion and misunderstanding rather than the topic being discussed. people are quick to make assumptions or fill in the gaps which is most unhelpful. I think its clear from the artist that the intension was not to offend, she may well have, but at least they posted so we can discuss the work. just because i don't feel like an ethics or history lesson today doesn't mean you can't appreciate my opinion in the same way that i appreciate yours to discuss it. tomorrow i might feel like one thats all...BUT i don't think it you can deny the fact that taken to the bare bones the technique is exceptional...the subject may not agree with you but the work involved is pretty damn good from where i sit.

i'll be interested to see what they come up with for a second image when not based around a competition and at a more leisurely speed etc.

its all're more than free to disagree bud, it the beauty of diversity.
One never knows what each day is going to bring. The important thing is to be open and ready for it.

Henry Moore
Old 12 December 2004   #64

-To Poshspice :
"(...)This is set at a time before the Nazis, 1588, and uses that imagery as inspiration for the aesthetic, not the morality or philosophy. It is a concept, pure and simple!" Even if you use it only for aesthetic, you do know what represents these symbols you're using. Wether you accept it or not, this aesthetic can't be a pure concept, it's an historical fact!

"(...)The danger, as you put it does not come from people like me, but from governments and indivuals that allow ignorance and stupidity to foster." Your "pure" easthetic approach of the subject, the lack of critical sense on SS uniforms (and a little bit of gestapo thanks to leather...) precisely allow ignorance and stupidity to foster : just take a look at some reactions, like "WOW ! your miss hitler rocks !" from the courageous Mr. ???. The fact that you post an explanation very lately shows you have no real intention to avoid such ignorant reactions. Maybe you didn't mind, but that's serious. Unconsciousness can be as dangerous as violent acts.

"Darth Vader - clearly presented as evil? I think his character is probably one of the most ambiguous of all! I use those films as examples because they draw on the imagery, maybe more subtley, but that is all I have done." I never said Darth Vader was not ambiguous, but his dark side is clearly presented as evil ! The sympathy he provokes comes from his past, when he was a "normal" man. Your pict doesn't express any ambiguity : USA has its pin-up, now thanks to you, IIIrd reich has its babes too!

"So it's a girl! I like drawing girls! Would you have been more or less offended if I'd portrayed a man, a robot or a chicken as the protaginist?" Come on... Of course I would clearly have be less offended (or not at all, maybe...) if you had paint a black girl, or a gipsy, or a chicken, BUT you choose a beautiful aryan girl, blonde with blue eyes ! Are you so ingenuous?

You think I want to catch you out ? Well check my posts, you'll see I'm the first to recognize great work, and I have no resentment against anybody, so why would you be different?

-To Kyena :
"(...)yet you just make an assumption over a whole country and call a person names and insults yet you don't even know anything about that persons background."
When I said that danger comes from other countries, England for ex., I didn't say that danger IS England. Danger comes from every place where ignorance is spreading, France and Switzerland included of course! So where do I call people names and insults?

Some people complain about a historical lesson : Sorry guys, but an artist can't ignore the power of images, and have the responsability to master his work enough to avoid any unsound propaganda. Advertizers knows that a pretty girl promote their product better than any words...
Old 12 December 2004   #65
Originally Posted by Arctis: -Some people complain about a historical lesson : Sorry guys, but an artist can't ignore the power of images, and have the responsability to master his work enough to avoid any unsound propaganda. Advertizers knows that a pretty girl promote their product better than any words...

we'll i didn't feel in the mood for a history lesson today..but since i can't avoid one it seems.
don't just assume its a propaganda image...i know and understand some very interesting comments you make...but essentially if you want to portray fascism those symbols are the very ones he/she uses..its not like they can use some others. however alot of the points and areas of the image to give that impression. In context with the fact that it was a competition entry using two themes...drake the armada and fascist england then i think it seems less advertorial as to describe. There is use of a single lion passant guardant symbol which is a bit unusual but then if it had been rampant then it could have possibly been said that it was the ensign of the Hebrew Tribe of Judah..."possibly" as it represents scotland on the royal standard currently (but taken from ireland and further afield afaik). maybe symbolism was used to lightly in this image but i don't know at the end of the day i can certainly take it or leave it. maybe the intension was unsound propaganda i don't know only the artist knows that...but since it was there first post and the intent seems not to offend i certainly gave them the benefit of the doubt...but its always good to question.

you do raise an interesting question though how to tackle the subject theme they set themselves...i liked the idea of the female twist to drake..but taking it a step further to something else is also interesting. i wonder if just the cross was removed and her skin colour had been changed whether there would have been as many complaints...dunno but its an interesting thought nontheless. i think also its important to consider drake in this and his legacy on england and the way we view him. we don't know a lot about his personality as his achievements often overshadow this in documentation
whether this fits with a fascist depiction of the character in history i guess the jury is out.

i just hope you guys can keep your crits friendly and as objective as possible to prevent any opinions getting out of hand. interesting discussion though with some varied reactions to it.
One never knows what each day is going to bring. The important thing is to be open and ready for it.

Henry Moore
Old 12 December 2004   #66
Hello Arctis,

And thankyou Flingster for an eloquent and reasoned post.

Right now I'm off to bed to sleep no doubt the sleep of the ignorant and disingenuous, but I am tired. I have made my points many times, but will respond once more. But Arctis, are you really interested in arguments, or just scoring points?

You said earlier:"I can't believe that you dare to say that there is nothing to do with Nazis!" I didn't say that. I said: "And a piece of fiction, as this is, has NOTHING to do with Germany or the Nazis." The operative word being FICTION. Which is what this is. But hey, now we are arguing semantics. But you are arguing against the archetype, and I am defending the product of using that archetype for a piece of work. So in the end we ain't going to agree on this one really. And the stupid thing is you and I DO agree. On the fundamentals of what Naziism represents - no doubt! But for goodness sake this imagery has been used time and time again in so many different ways. Accuse me of unoriginality please, not promoting Facism!

You have repeated at length how I posted an explanation of this picture later in the thread. I have explained how I felt I initially didn't need to because it was merely a concept. An idea. And you again refer to this in your most recent post. How many times must I repeat this? I took the iconography of a right wing totalitarian state, commonly percieved at its most familiar in Nazi Germany and transfered it to a CONCEPT!

I changed the symbols. There are NO swastikas in this picture. I changed it to a TUDOR ROSE, which at the time I smugly though was actually quite clever. The TotenKopf or DeathsHead has long been a symbol of terror. Pirates used it, YES, as did the SS. The Iron Cross is not a Nazi Symbol unless it has a swastika in the middle of it. It was an award for valour before the advent of the Nazis. I even removed the Nazi Eagle and changed that to a lion. You see, I THOUGHT about this! At no point in the history of the Third Reich did anyone dress in Pseudo Elizabethan Costume and fly an airship to see off the Spanish Armada (apologies too, to any Spanish reading this).

Of course I know black, red and white were worn by the Nazis, that is what this picture alludes to, and I haven't diguised this. (Some of them probably wore pink at weekends!) She is based on Third Reich uniforms, but I design many characters for a living and use many historical costumes for inspiration. Recently I designed a future-cowboy, and used 19th century western outfits for inspiration. But this is where you and I have a problem isn't it? I did this as a concept, purely and simply. No political, or ulterior motive. You see it as a symbol despite the completely different historical setting and story. And do you know; as I did this, not once did I think I was drawing a blonde Aryan women. I was thinking I was drawing a cute blonde woman. Someone pointed your observation out to me after I did it. The last girl I had drawn had been brunette... this one was blonde. Should I change her hair colour? Are my personal preferences when it comes to hair colour now being questioned. Should I post the cowboy picture? It might offend Native Americans, or inspire hatred in the mid-west. If you wish to get into a debate about the responsibility of Art to provoke or supress or whatever, I will do, but let's wash that bit of dirty linen in private hey!?

In future I shall keep my work nicely sanitised and fluffy. Think I'll paint a bunny next, maybe two, frolicking in dandelions...

Good night, and may your God go with you!
Aly's SITE
Aly's BLOG
Rosie Poe

Old 12 December 2004   #67
Originally Posted by Arctis: [...]you choose a beautiful aryan girl, blonde with blue eyes ! Are you so ingenuous?

She looks like she has brown eyes . BTW art is art whether you find it offensive or not, if you dont like it or it disturbs you, ignore it, look the other way and pretend it doesn't exist, simple as that.
Silly rabbit, tricks are for kids.

In the year 4016...
Old 12 December 2004   #68
You just put a pretty face on horrible symbols and you turn that into an attractive sexy stuff .
You should take care on what you decide to paint and on what you want to communicate with your art. For me, it looks like bad propaganda .
Don't play with symbols, some of them could hurt much more than words.

I can't appreciate the artwork since the "repulsive Ideology" come first in your picture.

I'm very surprised that so many people like this image. I wonder if it's because immature reasons , lack of respect or simply By ignorance.

BTW, in most countries, specially in europe, it is forbidden to exhibit nazi stuff (except for film or documentary needs and must not serve nazi propaganda )
Old 12 December 2004   #69
Originally Posted by FredMerlos: I'm very surprised that so many people like this image. I wonder if it's because immature reasons , lack of respect or simply By ignorance.

I personally find this much more offending then the picture
"Life beats down and crushes the soul, but art reminds you that you have one."

My website

Old 12 December 2004   #70
I don't know what you guys want to do?

You want to remove this picture from the gallery??

Art is meant to stimulate us in a lot of ways - for good and for bad - aren't we all mature professionals who should understand this?

Censorship has been a problem for artists all through history and now we are bestowing it upon ourselves?

Rule 4: Critiques and responses to images are to be constructive and related to improving the quality of the artwork.
Old 12 December 2004   #71
I hope you are not being serious about removing the image. [I don't think you are, but I'll flame anyway )
What next? A ban on "decadent art"? Is no-one to be allowed to show the movement of light on black leather? (especially when done extremely well, as Poshspice has done). A ban on combinations of black and red? On lions couchant or rampant? On arm bands or garters? Poshspice was right when he says "Accuse me of unoriginality please, not promoting Facism!", because the galleries of the world are full of images from history and pseudo-history like this. The comparison with the RSC production of Richard III is well made.

If there is a crime, then that crime would be to white wash and blank out the fascist era, to pretend it never happened. If Poshspice is to be tried for thought-crime, then the charge is that he reminds us how seductive the images, uniforms, insignia of that era were. Many, many people in England, France, Ireland, Spain, Poland, the Baltics were seduced by it - not just Germany, Austria and Italy.

I think that this work deserves an Editors Choice. If it does not do so, then it will be hard for me to believe that the reason is not that the subject matter is too difficult.
Old 12 December 2004   #72
I'm suprised at the amount of discussion this is generating, this is good to see. I'm thinking that it is all because this piece is so good ,because, there was another entry (page14) titled "Kaiser Wut Spaceship Landing" (not as good) and i thought that it was more Nazish but no one mentioned this issue then, and i think that the piece was front page as well. Poshspice i think you should go to page 14 and look the comments (he he) then reevalueate the situation.....just playing devils advocate over here. Don't take this off if you were thinking of doing so. Is leather Nazi or is leather plus the other symbols Nazi.....i love the leather rendering. Please go to page 14 and tell us what you think. Lastly i think that it is better to consider the impact of strong images before creating but not to back off if you feel strongly about a piece, this is great art, to me, the amount of discussion this is generating is bumping the piece into the 5+ stars range
Old 12 December 2004   #73
Noelt - Oooh! You stirer you! He he he!

Checked out the image. Thanks. Most enlightening! Superb picture and great draughtsmanship. I really like the CONCEPT. Great design of a future spaceship, incorporating PSEUDO NAZI IMAGERY! Er... but whats this? (shock horror)! Gasps! Who can it be praising the image four posts down. Do my eyes decieve me? Blinks! Like duh!! I'm sorry but I am getting really confused here... I think I might faint!
Aly's SITE
Aly's BLOG
Rosie Poe

Last edited by Poshspice : 12 December 2004 at 09:43 PM. Reason: To increase the sarcasm!
Old 12 December 2004   #74
Originally Posted by FredMerlos:
BTW, in most countries, specially in europe, it is forbidden to exhibit nazi stuff (except for film or documentary needs and must not serve nazi propaganda )

This is a really good point actually... this is not the case in England where this artist lives afaik. This doesn't mean you can fly a nazi flag outside your house, but there is certainly less control over the use of the symbol. But it does show differences in cultural perceptions of these particular images, something i elluded to in my earlier comments about impression of the man initially was arrogant type of personality so the pose and gestapo type uniform would fit..certainly the pantaloon type ruffle thing works well, but having read some more about him this may not extirely be the case but. We are brought up in school learning about a romantic version of drake and outside of the uk how you regard drake is probably very different...certainly in spanish schools would be interesting how this part of history is covered. I do think culturally there a big differences in symbolism and there meanings...its certainly the case with colour...symbols like the swastika have been around for a long time before being bastardised by the nazis. to buddhists and hindus its a religious symbol and quite commonly used... so a surfer with these beliefs MAY see things differently. Its clear in this piece that the symbols relate to fascism rather than religion of course, probably because of the black leather gestapo look to the uniform helps the association. certainly in england the swastika is recognised as a nazi symbol but then in the same was it was used in propaganda in germany it was used seen in opposition here. i do think there is an element of cultural differences in perception arisen out of this image being posted...this is no bad reminds us there is more to the world than our own country and that we post on an international forum and should have respect for others opinions.
One never knows what each day is going to bring. The important thing is to be open and ready for it.

Henry Moore
Old 12 December 2004   #75
Yes truly, that other pic is quite interesting, or rather, the responses it recieved. So why was it so well appreciated for what it was when this one was not?
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