Lady Frances Drake, Aly Fell (2D)

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  12 December 2004
I've always had a thing for Nazi SS styled uniforms and gorgeous women. I love the way you put a spin on the uniform. Excellent work~!
If you want to have beautiful eyes, look at beautiful things.
  12 December 2004
Originally Posted by mlkdesign: (it's just it troubles me that she's got the german luftwaffe sign on her necklace and a different armband that the nazis wore... )

I believe that's an "Iron cross", and it could be awarded to just about any kind of soldier, not just luftwaffe personnel. But that's beside the point.

I can see how the motif with all its fascist/nazi symbolism can make people cringe, but it's an interesting take on an alternetive timeline.

Absolutely stunning art. Stunning. =)
2D CG: Lilith
2D WIP: Moon Priestess, GW Warrior
  12 December 2004
is she SS ? I saw a skull on her hat. Super Job
  12 December 2004

I agree that the pict is well rendered, but I feel it's really indecent to present nazi's uniform as nice fashion, that suit well to a nice aryan blonde girl....
Many people in the 30's said "heil Hitler" because all these nazi's parades of that time (1936, Nuremberg...) represents "the Great Germany", with its nice suits, its fierce eagles above their banners. They also massacred jews, homosexuals, tziganes...
You could have introduce a crit of that imagery, but NO! It's just for fun!
Don't you have any sense of historical responsabilities ? Are you proud to have reactions such as "I've always had a thing for Nazi SS styled uniforms(...)" (Decadence, nice name...)
I am shocked that there is so few crits about the symbols you are using! Maybe you, guys, need another genocide to understand that there are things to take seriously.
All I said is twice valid for the moderator that put it on the frontpage !

PS : next time make a pict on BenLaden, just for fun of course...
Linked picture : the liberation of Dachau, a death camp.

Last edited by Arctis : 12 December 2004 at 12:51 PM.
  12 December 2004
Yeah Arctis you got some points.
If this pic was posted in a german forum there would have been no discussion about what those signs mean and nobody would have said that they think nazi uniforms are sexy. There are only very few people in germany who still sypathisze with the Nazi's . Most people would even swear at poeple saying "I've always had a thing for Nazi SS styled uniforms(...)" .
But all other nations don't care if someone of their nartion gives such comments.

I mean the Picture is great but shouldn't you stop talking about nazis being great in any way
I am from germany but I agree fully with Arctis and everyone I know also would.
  12 December 2004
OK. So I take it you don't like it then... I am sorry you are offended, but please keep a sense of perspective. I will re-iterate my previous comments. This an alternate history. The period it is set in is 1588, 350 years before the Nazis. The imagery is DRAWN on the Nazis because the look has become an archetype, and I imagined an alternative world where an Elizabethan superpower which was right wing was setting forth to battle the Armada. This is pretend! The Nazis were abhorrent and obcene, however popular culture has drawn on their imagery (uniforms by Hugo Boss), since the end of the Second World War. And a piece of fiction, as this is, has NOTHING to do with Germany or the Nazis. Please follow this post up with one complaing to the makers or 'Dangergirl', 'Hellboy', 'Raiders of the Lost Ark', 'Star Wars', 'Sky Captain' and 'Ian McKellerns 'Richard III' if this picture genuinely offends, because they are as guilty as I.
Aly's SITE
Aly's BLOG
Rosie Poe

  12 December 2004
You're right Bigpet. Germany has been traumatized by this period, so I really believe you when you say there's not much sympathy for nazis left...
Your reaction shows that there is a real hope for a better future, and I thank you for that.
Finally the danger comes from other countries, England for ex, with PoshPice, who should talk with his grandparents about germans bombing London...
"Great Britain, like Carthago, will be destroyed."(a nazi dignitary...)
  12 December 2004

A little response to Poshpice :
You said for example that StarWars and Raider of the lost Ark are as guilty as you. Well I disagree, because Nazi - or dark side of the force- are CLEARLY presented as evil, and punished at the end...
Well you posted a whole text about the context just now, but there was no clear explanation at all until I wrote you ! Are we supposed to guess ? Am I wrong, but there's no link toward where we can read you story.
I can't believe that you dare to say that there is nothing to do with Nazis! The silver skull on a black german cap, the leather, the shoulder-strap white and red !!!
I don't think you're a nazi, I'm not that naive, but maybe you are a bit shizophrenic : your text and your pict don't speak the same langage. In your (recently posted...)explanation, you said nazis are bad, but in your pict you don't ! Without text, your pict said : I like gorgeous arian blonde girl wearing nice SS suit, and observing an attack. No bad faith about it, please!

Last edited by Arctis : 12 December 2004 at 01:51 PM.
  12 December 2004
lack of history

happy to see some more critical opinions.

I can imagine that it is hard to get hard critique on a piece that you must have worked on for a good time. But the whole story abbout an alternative history doestn exculpate the usage of nazi or even nazi-like symbols.
I think that we as artists are not only responsible of the thechincal side of our work, and your explanation shows that you are not unconsions of this side, as you quote certain history facts and made them your concept.

what I really do not understand is why you come up with 1588. The Montoglfier brothers started there first experiments arround 1785 ... so I dont get the zeppelins in the backround and how they fit in a image showing an alternative history version playing in 1588.

It is a critical discussion here and I see where you point at when you refer to Star Wars (Darth Wador has a very NS appearance) or other movies that use this archetype.
I perhaps wouldnt have replied critically on this thread, if your explanantion of the concept would be more profound, and if there would not have been some "decadent" other members, posting their ignorant and perhaps even pro-nationalistic comments.

My conclusion is, that you were ether a bit unaware of the power of the symbols you are playing with here, or (what I do not presume) you play with this images consciously, out of a certain affection for the ideologies related.

Both ways lack a ignorance of history.

Also I suggest CGtalk to take this image off fontpage ...
how did it get there anyhow ???
  12 December 2004

Hi Arctis,

I am truly sorry you have been offended by this picture, but you assume a little too much about me. It concerns me that you can't see this as a work of fiction, a concept, and divorce it from the reality of the Nazis. This is set at a time before the Nazis, 1588, and uses that imagery as inspiration for the aesthetic, not the morality or philosophy. It is a concept, pure and simple!

I won't go into my personal history, particularly in respect of my grandparents, who you bring up, whose experiences fighting Hitler I am well familiar with. As I am with the history of Hitlers Germany. The danger, as you put it does not come from people like me, but from governments and indivuals that allow ignorance and stupidity to foster.

I didn't post a pre-defence of the picture as I don't really feel as an image or a concept it needs one. As I have said before, I changed the iconography to express the theme of the picture that was done as part of a challenge on another site.

Darth Vader - clearly presented as evil? I think his character is probably one of the most ambiguous of all! I use those films as examples because they draw on the imagery, maybe more subtley, but that is all I have done. Lucas drew on totalinarianism to caricature the Imperial Forces, as have countless artists and writers. It is also patronising to the viewer to have clearly defined areas of black and white, good and evil. Do they need spelling out beforehand? But a closer comparison would be 'Richard III', where Ian McKellern sets the Shakespearean play in fascist 1930's England.

I feel you just want to catch me out somehow. Admit that somehow I glamourise Nazis. And you accuse me of being schizophrenic. Perhaps it is more schizophrenic to be unable to distinguish reality from something set in an impossible world.

So it's a girl! I like drawing girls! Would you have been more or less offended if I'd portrayed a man, a robot or a chicken as the protaginist?

mimo8 - 1588 was the year of the Armada. When the Spanish fleet attacked England and Sir Francis Drake was playing bowls before setting out to meet them. And her costume is Elizabethan. It is not meant to be an accurate portrayal of an historical event, hence the existance of airships.

You are now insinuating I might have sympathies for 'the ideoligies involved. What ideoligies would that be. Tudor/Elizabethan totalinarianism, because that's what the picture represents.

I don't wish to offend anybody. This is my first post here, and I hope to show many more. I chose this because it represents my current style, and is more representative of the way I now work.
Aly's SITE
Aly's BLOG
Rosie Poe

  12 December 2004
I think you got me wrong. I said the picture is great.
I just criticized the comments like "WOW ! your miss hitler rocks !"
I mean you post the pic and some are going like: I always liked nazis and hitler
just exaggerated a little bit but that just looks as if some guys think like that
  12 December 2004
Great answer Poshspice

I had a whole essay written out but I decided not to add to the pot - since after all this is an art forum.

Either way I still want to say this:

"Finally the danger comes from other countries, England for ex, with PoshPice, who should talk with his grandparents about germans bombing London...
"Great Britain, like Carthago, will be destroyed."(a nazi dignitary...)"

You are talking about the responsability of paintings..yet you just make an assumption over a whole country and call a person names and insults yet you don't even know anything about that persons background. Should make you think a bit.

Once more - sorry to add to the discussion which should probably just be left alone but I couldn't help.
"Life beats down and crushes the soul, but art reminds you that you have one."

My website

  12 December 2004
ART...don't you just love a debate about acceptibilities and responsibilities!

nice lighting...nice materials...nice implementation of the subject and its setting...nice concept mix/spin on drake and facism and spin on female it. whats funny about it is no one mentioned the armada's effects on people lives/deaths....but then i don't want a history lesson either. not interested in a debate on ethics on an art forum at the end of the day...its something for general discussion threads..but everyones entitled to an opinion and thats the cool part of cgtalk.

good work is good work at the end of the day...and this is talent whichever way you look at it...whether you like the subject matter or its rendition of a theme is all for debate i guess.

keep up the good work...
One never knows what each day is going to bring. The important thing is to be open and ready for it.

Henry Moore
  12 December 2004
Thumbs up Wow!... and huh?

I absolutely love this painting!
Too bad that some people starts naging about stuff that does not belong on these forums. It´s all about the art if you ask me.

Keep this up, I absolutely love your style! :-)
- Henning

[ digital art by henning ludvigsen ]
  12 December 2004
What are you talking about?
It doesn't belong into an Art forum?
What do you think you learn when studying Art? Just how to paint?
I think it's frightening that so much people show such an ignorant attitude . I don't mean this picture in particular. But just saying talking about what a picture means or could mean for some people doesn't belong into an Art forum. It seems like you guys don't understand Art it's not only about painting beautiful pictures.

once again sorry for bringing this topic up in the thread of this picture and I don't doubt that Poshspices drawing shows artistic talent in some ways
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