Losing my mind (Re: Opacity)

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  05 May 2009
Originally Posted by Lunatique: I'm making this thread a sticky, since it's one of the most thoughtful and informative threads we're had around here in a while. I'm also hoping the Corel team will read this thread and really take it to heart--that Painter needs to improve and progress in order to remain relevant in the years to come, as smaller forward-thinking developers are coming up with intuitive and useful tools that artists really need, and some have superior approaches to how transparency and opacity is handled--in ways that are actually helpful towards an artist's workflow instead of limiting it.


Good call. On another forum someone asked, How come there's so much talk of other software products in a Painter forum? I think Corel needs to ask themselves the same question.
 
  05 May 2009
Originally Posted by workbench: About your first issue with Painter, Custom Palettes take care of that, I imagine the point is to load an empty file, try every single brush and move the ones you like to the custom palette.
Sorry, I meant there is an issue when we are looking for a new brush. So even if we have a custom palette, we need to try again all of them (in fact, as I know about the engine, I don't waste my time trying preset brush, I just create the one I want...but if you don't know the brush engine you will be lost as I was before)
Originally Posted by Lunatique: I'm also hoping the Corel team will read this thread and really take it to heart--that Painter needs to improve and progress in order to remain relevant in the years to come, as smaller forward-thinking developers are coming up with intuitive and useful tools that artists really need, and some have superior approaches to how transparency and opacity is handled--in ways that are actually helpful towards an artist's workflow instead of limiting it. That ruler in Manga Studio is also a real eye-opener as well. Even my other thread about the blur brush in Sai and Open Canvas--that's another thing I wish Painter had. And those vector/spline-based inking tools--so flexible and fluid. I wonder if it's even possible for Corel to implement their version of all these awesome tools into Painter.
I don't know if this kind of thread can change their mind about painter, but I know trying to describe precisely an issue will not help so much. Now, if we could share knowledge about software limitation or feature using just video comparison which seems to be the simplest way to communicate with others, lot of people could know about that and they could ask to Corel also, "why your program is not able to do what this cheap other program can do?"...just trying something else as a request list doesn't help~

Now I am not expecting finding everything in one package. The issue with opacity and transparency is also the reason why we have this gel layer, because they seems to be unable to integrate the effect inside the brush, so they use a cheap method changing the layer composite method which limits more the use of layer.
Originally Posted by theanswer07: Hecartha, your bringing up a lot of issues I have known about with Painter, but have sub consiously gone, 'meh, won't try that again then' you know?
I know, I am finishing finding my workflow using SAI and I am feeling so good now. I will use Painter for last step when it will be needed (really few time)
Originally Posted by theanswer07: Theres a fine line between wanting great functionality and balanced features and wanting an 'all-in-one' package, which is unrealistic by any stretch.
It was mostly a christmas wish list showing there are many area where Painter needs to be enhanced before adding more and more...brush?.
But about ruler do you really think it is just a dream to see one day a simple straight line ruler and radial line ruler in a drawing/painting program (not necessarily Painter)? It is not like if it was complicated.
Originally Posted by theanswer07: Sure, in a perfect world there would be a package that takes Painters robust brush system, Photoshop and SAI's Transparency and opacity functionalities, and Manga Studios rulers, among other thingas, but realistically it's a far fetched idea to even hint at wanting that from a developer, as each developer has an individual goal, and idealogy, that may not necessarily reside around creating traditional based tools, or by creating digital tools, this is another thing, as consumers, that we must come to accept, it's a pain in the ass, but that's life!
The consumers who don't accept that buy something else and when too many consumers go away, developers think about changing things...if it is not late anyway
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  05 May 2009
Quote: But about ruler do you really think it is just a dream to see one day a simple straight line ruler and radial line ruler in a drawing/painting program (not necessarily Painter)? It is not like if it was complicated.


It's not a dream, what I was trying to say was, that if the developers don't see their software benefiting significantly from a new straight ruler or whatever, then at the end of the day they just won't implement it, we can't do a whole lot about that.

Quote: The consumers who don't accept that buy something else and when too many consumers go away, developers think about changing things...if it is not late anyway


That's true, and Painter seems to have more hindering features then benefiting ones as of late, so I hope Corel comes to realise the damage they are doing before it is too late, because if they keep trying to please hobbyists with their photo-painting systems, then the Professional artists who are there for the long haul will leave, simple as that, and that's something they can't afford to lose.
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shap00pi
 
  05 May 2009
Drawing aids in digital programs have been tremendously neglected, Manga Studio has a great ruler engine but if you don't do comics it's hard to include the program in your setup.
 
  05 May 2009
@theanswer07
ok Luke, I am still thinking we have a little power about forcing them to change their priority
Originally Posted by workbench: Drawing aids in digital programs have been tremendously neglected, Manga Studio has a great ruler engine but if you don't do comics it's hard to include the program in your setup.
Yeah, and it should be a priority with a great brush engine

ooh, and I need to post with all the other videos the one describing this old never fixed bug
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  05 May 2009
This is a very nice thread indeed. Customer support seems to be lacking with Corel these days.

Also in regards to Sai, I think another issue is cross compatibility. Simple programs like this are made and windows users are definitely getting the benefit but Mac users are left out.

Thanks for pointing out the rulers in Manga Studio, I was pointed to it for its inking capabilities but those rulers are amazing. I've also become more of a fan of ArtRage now as they have a good community and better support. I agree the oils are really nice. If it weren't for a certain Imagine FX article I would have never known how well it is for such a low cost.

You can also turn off what brushes you don't need and save it as a workspace in Painter. That's one thing I like in Painter because I can switch workspaces as needed. The problem is now though, this is a slow process. I don't know if you've tried it, but it will lag and you think it's done and it should have something simple like "Switching Workspaces ...please wait" instead of thinking it acted up. In addition...stability issues again.

I'm also really disappointed with the treatment of Corel Sketchpad. Not only is it expensive, but if you got it as part of the package with the intuos4 and tried the download previously, there still isn't a working solution (for windows users, you can't instal the program because it's detecting the trial install). Wacom and Corel are both pointing fingers at each other, and the customer is left in the middle.

I think Baron can tell you how frustrated I am when I'm at the Painter Factory forums awaiting a response from Corel. It's like you're told to go there as a customer, receive no service and people who don't understand the issue and its seriousness if you got a deadline to make.

I also asked if Corel would make a side app so you can browse your various paper and pattern libraries. It's sometimes a pain to have to keep swapping library groups just to find a paper that's stuck in one. Your collection can get quite large so trying to find where you stuck your "Silk paper" can get to become more of a task so a side app to just browse them would be a great help.
 
  05 May 2009
Quote: I think Baron can tell you how frustrated I am when I'm at the Painter Factory forums awaiting a response from Corel. It's like you're told to go there as a customer, receive no service and people who don't understand the issue and its seriousness if you got a deadline to make.


I think the whole idea of redirecting customers to an independent forum for support on their own product is a joke in itself.. it's laughable, Corel's business tactics and customer support, or there lack of, is severely outdated and primitive, especially when a vast majority of users have the internet, making customer support easier than ever, yet they seem to fail so badly at it.

Quote: I'm also really disappointed with the treatment of Corel Sketchpad. Not only is it expensive, but if you got it as part of the package with the intuos4 and tried the download previously, there still isn't a working solution (for windows users, you can't instal the program because it's detecting the trial install). Wacom and Corel are both pointing fingers at each other, and the customer is left in the middle.


Sketchpad is a joke, Corel have just tried to cash in on an increasingly popular sketching software trend (if you will) with the likes of Sketchbook Pro and Art Rage increasing in popularity.

In comparison with the aforementioned packages, Sketchpad is slow, heavy and for a 'hey get your ideas out quick!' idealogy completely unusable because it is so laggy. Although, the GUI is quite attractive, shame P11 didn't have such an attractive one, could have balanced out with the shit they did wrong.

But yeah, Sketchpad just doesn't offer the same streamlined and simplistic approach to sketching while programs like Art Rage and Sketchbook Pro do.
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shap00pi
 
  05 May 2009
Originally Posted by ArshesNei: I think Baron can tell you how frustrated I am when I'm at the Painter Factory forums awaiting a response from Corel.


You mostly hide it pretty well by my standards but yeah, I see it and share it.

It's a liberty to fail to offer a key service and shunt support responsibility onto the very users who are experiencing the problems. There's a thread going on at Painter Factory (as most will know) where people are spending literally days of their time trying to figure out a major bug that stops Painter from loading. And Corel's input? Nothing whatsoever. And that's one thread from many.

Corel either don't realise or don't care what's happening to their user-base. I doubt there was anyone as pro-Painter as I was but the fiasco with P11 made me realise that Painter as a product was not bullet-proof and that relying on it - especially for a career - was no longer viable.

This was quite scary because at the time I didn't know of anything that could replace Painter. Of course, now I do, but I know some people still need Painter and it's sad to see them receiving no support from Corel. I think the situation is so grave that if Corel release P12 to the same shoddy standards as P11 then that will be the end of Painter. And if the bugs aren't sorted in 11 then 12 will need to be a rewrite.

When I type something like that I'm always tempted to list the bugs and enhancements that Corel need to address in order to sort this out, otherwise it appears I'm just finding fault without making suggestions. Then I remind myself, what's the point? I've posted them for years and not one has been implemented or specifically acknowledged.
 
  05 May 2009
Originally Posted by theanswer07: I think the whole idea of redirecting customers to an independent forum for support on their own product is a joke in itself.. it's laughable, Corel's business tactics and customer support, or there lack of, is severely outdated and primitive, especially when a vast majority of users have the internet, making customer support easier than ever, yet they seem to fail so badly at it.


I don't mind them using the forum for support, but if you're going to direct us to it. USE IT. Don't tell us it's the best place for support and feedback and let tumbleweeds ravage the posts.

Baron, indeed, like I said if it weren't for that ImagineFX dvd tutorial and even your posts in CA's Painter 11 thread, I wouldn't have thought much of Art rage as it seemed too limited at first. Sai Paint is part of my arsenal still giving Manga Studio a few attempts here and there, and Open Canvas has been something I've used for a while for sketching things out. I do have Sketchbook though.

Also if you're looking for the patch online: http://www.corel.com/servlet/Satell...d=1234450613802

Last edited by ArshesNei : 05 May 2009 at 06:39 PM. Reason: Adding a patch for windows.
 
  05 May 2009
added this video in this post about opacity bug on layer in any Painter version since at least version 6 to current version 11.0.017

Another example of limitation using transparency and layers...
Originally Posted by ArshesNei: Also in regards to Sai, I think another issue is cross compatibility. Simple programs like this are made and windows users are definitely getting the benefit but Mac users are left out.
First, nice to see you here because I forgot mentioning again SAI is Windows only. (and sorry for the late reply)

Few words about cross compatibility. My opinion about that is, it is more important the program is able to save a cross compatible file than the program is able to run on only one OS. Mac users (MacIntel) are not left out, MacOS users are.
In a workflow using Photoshop (MacOS workstation) and SAI (Windows workstation), as SAI uses the same powerful layer system than Photoshop (layer mask, clipping mask, groups and composite methods), when you will open your file in SAI or in Photoshop, your file will remain the same. So you don't need to stop using features available in Photoshop because of limitation inside the program as it is the case using Painter (no clipping mask) or ArtRage (no layer mask, no group, no clipping mask). That's especially true for people who are using Painter as blending program.
Originally Posted by ArshesNei: You can also turn off what brushes you don't need and save it as a workspace in Painter. That's one thing I like in Painter because I can switch workspaces as needed. The problem is now though, this is a slow process. I don't know if you've tried it, but it will lag and you think it's done and it should have something simple like "Switching Workspaces ...please wait" instead of thinking it acted up. In addition...stability issues again.
Thanks for the feedback, I just tested enough to see it is a slow process as you said.
Adding more complexity (so more nice stuff to accomplish what we need) must be balanced by an easy way to deal with this complexity and advanced file managers have done a pretty good job in managing many files using flat view (merge temporary all the brushes categories to only one) and real time filter based on tag name.
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Last edited by Hecartha : 05 May 2009 at 08:40 AM.
 
  05 May 2009
Hey Hecartha,

After watching a few lynda.com vids it was brought to my attention that in Corel Painter 9? (not quite sure) when the Artist Oils were introduced Corel developers coded the brush to deal with transparency more efficiently, the same was as SAI and as Photoshop, instead of blending with the white, or any other colour infact, of the canvas below the artist oils lay opaque strokes down initially and then graduate into transparency, without canvas interaction

Just thought I'd bring this to your attention, because I didn't know it either
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shap00pi
 
  05 May 2009
Yes, artist's oils work exactly like rendered dab type (scratchboard tool uses this dab type) and that's not what I am pointing. The issue is concerning "only" image based brushes like static bristle, circular, captured (lot of brushes...any brush which can use grain and spacing). It is why I used the scratchboard tool with this paintover in this JPerry's wip thread

About blending with transparency that is not correct (or almost). Painter is only able to blend color on current layer. But yes, the issue with the white is not anymore an issue. Now if you want to blend color with bottom layer you need to check the 'Pick Up Underlaying Color' box which pastes pixels from bottom layer to current layer for blending them. In fact Painter needs a system which is able to blend with transparency as if it was a color.

But thanks for pointing that
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Last edited by Hecartha : 05 May 2009 at 10:58 AM.
 
  05 May 2009
Mikael - Thanks for another informative video. Often when it comes to graphics issues, pictures and videos are worth a thousand words.

I was wondering if you could do a video on one of the most annoying problems with Painter, which is the dreaded transparent pixel treated as white pixels during blending on another layer without checking the "pick up underlying colors" box?

IMO, that check box is not a solution and Corel will have to address this issue sooner or later, or else Painter will never be a flexible production tool for demanding professionals that are often asked by clients and employers to keep their images in as many separate layers as possible. With the way Painter works now, I can't even do something as simple as paint a character and keep the hair on a separate layer in case I need to change the color quickly later. Hair very often requires bristle brushes with some Bleed turned up in order to be feathered to look silky and soft--ESPECAILLY against the background, and as soon as we do that, we run into a brick wall with Painter's implementation of treating transparent pixels as white pixels. Forcing us to blend with the colors of the underlying layers just doesn't work--what good is having separate layers for ease and flexibility of a digital workflow if I can't even keep something like hair cleanly on a separate layer for easy editing later? It is for this very reason that I must rely on Photoshop for serious and demanding production work for clients or projects that require a lot of iterations and changes. Painter only really gets used when I really need to emulate the look of traditional mediums or after specific types of brushwork outside of Photoshop's capabilities.
 
  05 May 2009
Originally Posted by Hecartha: Thanks for the feedback, I just tested enough to see it is a slow process as you said.
Adding more complexity (so more nice stuff to accomplish what we need) must be balanced by an easy way to deal with this complexity and advanced file managers have done a pretty good job in managing many files using flat view (merge temporary all the brushes categories to only one) and real time filter based on tag name.


Fair point, it's just that I show Mac users Sai and they are broken hearted, it's not that you can't send them the PSD files but they do want to use the program.

Regarding switching workspaces and library... I don't know if you've done this or had fun one with the brush tracker but one of the more fun bugs that was definitely present in X was that "this brush cannot be built" because you forgot to clear the tracker. I don't mind clearing the tracker but why can't we disable the tracker in the first place? If I want the option I'll turn it on, but the brush tracking seems to hurt me more than help.

Also I don't know if anyone gets this one present in X and 11 switching libraries doesn't happen. Sometimes you have to tell it to switch up to 3 or more times - that's also where you get the stupid error with the Tracker that crashes Painter X.
 
  05 May 2009
Quote: Mikael - Thanks for another informative video. Often when it comes to graphics issues, pictures and videos are worth a thousand words.

I was wondering if you could do a video on one of the most annoying problems with Painter, which is the dreaded transparent pixel treated as white pixels during blending on another layer without checking the "pick up underlying colors" box?

IMO, that check box is not a solution and Corel will have to address this issue sooner or later, or else Painter will never be a flexible production tool for demanding professionals that are often asked by clients and employers to keep their images in as many separate layers as possible. With the way Painter works now, I can't even do something as simple as paint a character and keep the hair on a separate layer in case I need to change the color quickly later. Hair very often requires bristle brushes with some Bleed turned up in order to be feathered to look silky and soft--ESPECAILLY against the background, and as soon as we do that, we run into a brick wall with Painter's implementation of treating transparent pixels as white pixels. Forcing us to blend with the colors of the underlying layers just doesn't work--what good is having separate layers for ease and flexibility of a digital workflow if I can't even keep something like hair cleanly on a separate layer for easy editing later? It is for this very reason that I must rely on Photoshop for serious and demanding production work for clients or projects that require a lot of iterations and changes. Painter only really gets used when I really need to emulate the look of traditional mediums or after specific types of brushwork outside of Photoshop's capabilities.


Now that is something Corel should be worrying about, your one of the most well-known Painter illustrators and if you need to go back to Photoshop to do your work, there is something seriously wrong, but once again, Corel doesn't seem to mind as long as the photo painting pool of customers is happy, needn't worry about the ones who really use the program.
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shap00pi
 
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