Losing my mind (Re: Opacity)

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Old 05 May 2009   #1
Losing my mind (Re: Opacity)

So either I don't understand the point of opacity or Painter is trying to make me insane. If I:

- Pick a color, any color
- Set my brush to 25% opacity
- lay down a stroke on the canvas that is full pressure on my tablet

I would expect to have to make 4 strokes on top of each other at full pressure in order to get the color I picked. Instead, the first stroke lays down 100% of the color. So I ask, what is the point of the opacity setting if it doesn't appear to actually lower the opacity of the stroke?
 
Old 05 May 2009   #2
Hi planetaaron,

Try setting Opacity Expression to None (in the Brush Controls' General palette).



Jinny


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Old 05 May 2009   #3
Originally Posted by Jinbrown: Hi planetaaron,

Try setting Opacity Expression to None (in the Brush Controls' General palette).



Jinny


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Hi Jinny,

Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately that didn't help :( It just made the stroke not fade out on either end. This brush is a custom variant I made that is:

Dab type: Circular
Stroke Type: Single
Method: Cover
Subcategory: Flat Cover

Opacity 25%
Expression: Pressure

Resaturation: 50%
Bleed 20%

That's about it. I should mention that I'm using Painter X.1.052 which should be the latest (only?) patch they released.
 
Old 05 May 2009   #4
Yep, there was only one patch released for Painter X.

Sorry, I don't have any solutions other than to try this rather cumbersome (at least setting it up) workaround:

Create a color set from colors at various values to match the values you'd get painting with a range of Opacities. Then paint with these colors at 100% opacity with Opacity Expression, Resaturation Expression, and Bleed Expression set to None.

This subject has come up so often and usually from Photoshop users who are used to a different brush technology. You may not be able to solve this one easily or the way you'd like.

Still, you can try what I described above and add to that, the option to paint on a Layer and adjust the Layer Opacity as needed.

Again, sorry I can't offer a better answer.

Good luck!


Jinny


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Old 05 May 2009   #5
this image may explain everything


Painter is not really good with opacity because the opacity is "linked" to the spacing for all image based brushes. It is unable to produce hard edged low opacity brush stroke excepted with the rendered dab type like the scratchboard tool. If you reduce the opacity, your stroke become too smooth.
In my opinion, this is a complete lack especially when you ever tested some other programs which works like painter. These other programs (in this case ArtRage and PaintTool SAI) introduced something like the dilution which preserves hard edged stroke with low opacity.
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Old 05 May 2009   #6
Mickael - Awesome example! That demonstrates very clearly why Painter users have been asking for a Photoshop-like brush all these years.
 
Old 05 May 2009   #7
Thanks all for the info. The funny thing is that I've barely used photoshop for trying to paint really, well, ever. It just makes sense to me logically that opacity should work the way I described in my first post.

Anyway, thanks again everybody.
 
Old 05 May 2009   #8
Its a shame Painter doesn't have the same opacity functions as Photoshop, opacity in Painter feels to me like flow in photoshop, more or less.

It'd be great to be able to paint in both styles in the same application.
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Old 05 May 2009   #9
Originally Posted by Hecartha:
Painter is not really good with opacity because the opacity is "linked" to the spacing for all image based brushes. It is unable to produce hard edged low opacity brush stroke excepted with the rendered dab type like the scratchboard tool. If you reduce the opacity, your stroke become too smooth.
In my opinion, this is a complete lack especially when you ever tested some other programs which works like painter. These other programs (in this case ArtRage and PaintTool SAI) introduced something like the dilution which preserves hard edged stroke with low opacity.


I suppose this also might explain why some people don't have a problem with Painter's opacity... I paint in Photoshop with an irregular brush tip with opacity at 100% (though modified by tablet pressure) and Flow set at around 10-25%.
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Old 05 May 2009   #10
Originally Posted by JohnMalcolm1970: I suppose this also might explain why some people don't have a problem with Painter's opacity...
Where did you see I wrote "any people will have problem with Painter's opacity"? There is a limitation with opacity, nothing else.
Originally Posted by JohnMalcolm1970: I paint in Photoshop with an irregular brush tip with opacity at 100% (though modified by tablet pressure) and Flow set at around 10-25%.
First, the Photoshop's flow= Painter's opacity. There is no equivalent of the Photoshop's opacity in Painter (I am still talking about image based brush, Photoshop use only this kind of brush)
So, there is no way to use your settings in Painter (opacity set to pressure) you can only set the flow to pressure and if you do that, more you will reduce the flow and smoother will be the edge of your brush stroke.

In OpenCanvas, the pencil brush is really closed of the Photoshop brushes, it can limit opacity per brush stroke to the percentage you want and opacity can be controlled by the stylus pressure.
In PaintTool SAI, as there is no spacing, the opacity you set is the opacity you get. And there is also two kind of brush which are able to make things really precise:
-the marker which is able to make a brush stroke limited to the opacity you set. This one is different of anything else I have seen since if you set 30% opacity (named density in SAI), even if you make multiple brush strokes, you will obtain only 30% opacity on your layer so if you paint with 30% opacity brush over 50% opacity area, you will only modify the color.
-the standard brush which has a dilution setting. If you set the density to 100% (to preserve the hard edge) and you increase the dilution, your brush will react as if you thined down the paint. So you obtain truly transparent brush stroke you can combine to increase opacity on the layer (with the dilution set to 85%, you need a lot brush strokes to reach 100% opacity on your layer)
If you combine that with blending and persistence settings, you can push transparent area of a layer to thin down the paint. And if you add the fringe effect on your layer you have pretty good watercolor engine.
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Old 05 May 2009   #11
Originally Posted by Hecartha: Where did you see I wrote "any people will have problem with Painter's opacity"? There is a limitation with opacity, nothing else.


I think you misunderstand my point. I replied to your post because you posted an excellent explanation of the differences between the brush engines. I didn't mean to imply either that you had a problem, or that you said people had a problem. I meant that if one uses flow at a low setting and opacity at 100% in PS, then one will have less of an issue with Painter's brush engine. The main problem I see is people constantly wanting to have something that works exactly like Photoshop's default hard round brush in every way.... in Painter.

I have no problem painting semi-opaquely or transparently in Painter.... or in Photoshop with opacity set to 100%... with or without hard edges... it's just a case of controlling pressure properly with your pen and tablet.
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Old 05 May 2009   #12
Originally Posted by JohnMalcolm1970: I think you misunderstand my point.
I think also
Shame on me, your message meant exactly what you wrote. I suspected irony there, I was wrong, sorry.
Originally Posted by JohnMalcolm1970: The main problem I see is people constantly wanting to have something that works exactly like Photoshop's default hard round brush in every way.... in Painter.
People don't want a Photoshop's feature, people want something that is possible with natural media and as they know photoshop, they use it as example to show a working system. The last time I used natural media with acrylic+brushes and airbrush, I was able to thin down the paint to work with transparency...I can't do that in Painter in a simple way, so I need to cheat.
Now, because I know some people are sensitive when we are talking about Photoshop, I mentionned 3 other programs, ArtRage, openCanvas and PaintTool SAI...that are painting programs and not image editing programs. All these programs can do in their way what we are requesting in Painter.
The reason why a decent system is not inside Painter is in my opinion because it was badly designed (or it wasn't possible in a old time) before Corel buys it. So I am not with all the people complaining about Corel, I mean the "it was better before" thing. The guys from Corel are not perfect, ok, but most of the historical issues in Painter were there when it was metacreation or maybe before...(damn old opacity bug and the non transparent system). Now it seems to be impossible to fix that or maybe it needs a big investment.
If you know well Painter, you probably know that everything has to do with transparency use the crappy gel layer which is a nightmare when you need to merge with a non opaque standard layer.
Originally Posted by JohnMalcolm1970: I have no problem painting semi-opaquely or transparently in Painter.... or in Photoshop with opacity set to 100%... with or without hard edges... it's just a case of controlling pressure properly with your pen and tablet.
See this video

it is not too long (4'21) and it shows precisely what I mean by true opacity control and you will see the poor control you think having with any settings possible in Painter is just...well, I will leave to you the choice of the adjective.
-0'00, PaintTool SAI
-1'20, Painter
-2'04, PaintTool SAI
-4'01, Painter
Compare by yourself

Now another video to show you why I am saying Painter is not really good with transparency, it concerns now the blending engine. The video explain everything (2'12)


*EDIT* added this video about opacity bug on layer in any Painter version since at least version 6 to current version 11.0.017

Another example of limitation using transparency and layers...
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Last edited by Hecartha : 05 May 2009 at 07:52 AM.
 
Old 05 May 2009   #13
Originally Posted by Hecartha: I think also
Shame on me, your message meant exactly what you wrote. I suspected irony there, I was wrong, sorry.
People don't want a Photoshop's feature, people want something that is possible with natural media and as they know photoshop, they use it as example to show a working system. The last time I used natural media with acrylic+brushes and airbrush, I was able to thin down the paint to work with transparency...I can't do that in Painter in a simple way, so I need to cheat.
Now, because I know some people are sensitive when we are talking about Photoshop, I mentionned 3 other programs, ArtRage, openCanvas and PaintTool SAI...that are painting programs and not image editing programs. All these programs can do in their way what we are requesting in Painter.
The reason why a decent system is not inside Painter is in my opinion because it was badly designed (or it wasn't possible in a old time) before Corel buys it. So I am not with all the people complaining about Corel, I mean the "it was better before" thing. The guys from Corel are not perfect, ok, but most of the historical issues in Painter were there when it was metacreation or maybe before...(damn old opacity bug and the non transparent system). Now it seems to be impossible to fix that or maybe it needs a big investment.
If you know well Painter, you probably know that everything has to do with transparency use the crappy gel layer which is a nightmare when you need to merge with a non opaque standard layer.
See this video

it is not too long (4'21) and it shows precisely what I mean by true opacity control and you will see the poor control you think having with any settings possible in Painter is just...well, I will leave to you the choice of the adjective.
-0'00, PaintTool SAI
-1'20, Painter
-2'04, PaintTool SAI
-4'01, Painter
Compare by yourself

Now another video to show you why I am saying Painter is not really good with transparency, it concerns now the blending engine. The video explain everything (2'12)


Thanks.... that was a good explantion of the issue. I use Photoshop way more than Painter... but when I do use Painter I try and switch my way of thinking towards more traditional techniques. I tend to try working on one layer preferably, or if I do create a new layer to try things out I flatten it as soon as possible. Working on one layer means you can use things like the tinting brushes that are reasonably good at laying down washes of colour. Working on two layers with oil type brushes can represent working with wet paint on top of already dried paint.

In an ideal world Corel would fix this issue - But in that ideal world perhaps Adobe would add Painter like blending to their brush engine? It's been a while since they've made any significant changes to the way one can paint in Photoshop.... CS5 maybe?
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Old 05 May 2009   #14
In CS5 there will probably be a color wheel, blending maybe in CS6 then Adobe closes doors since there's nothing to add anymore.
 
Old 05 May 2009   #15
In CS5 there will probably be a color wheel, blending maybe in CS6 then Adobe closes doors since there's nothing to add anymore.


Sorry to go off topic, but where is the logic behind that?
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