View Full Version : character: school project

08 August 2003, 03:31 AM
hello all, im working on my models for my new semester and im trying to get become the best modler in my class. i am working in Maya, and im looking for any help to get it better. id like to shoot for styelized but close to subdued realism. im pretty sure my proportions are right but fresh eyes are always nice. also some things feel off but im not quite sure. thanks all.

ive had to take down some pictures to clear space for others sorry. if you need older images let me know

the picture below is an update- 10/18/03

08 August 2003, 03:32 AM
here are the side and profile

08 August 2003, 03:34 AM

09 September 2003, 06:15 AM
im not sure how i should take this silence

09 September 2003, 06:53 PM
>>> im pretty sure my proportions are right but fresh eyes are always nice. also some things feel off but im not quite sure. thanks all.

Speaking of eyes I think these are too large.. where are the ears?

I'ts a good start.. overall though the head feels a bit blocky.. I think the overall front of the face is too flat.. I dunno I'd like to see a change in the eyes first.

09 September 2003, 10:36 PM
I rhink that you need a reference picture. Like this one:

Photograph yourself from front and left or right and put it on the scene. That will help you.

09 September 2003, 01:14 AM

ok shrunk the eyes, im waiting on the ears to get the eys and nose right. now i think his jaw might be a little to strong.

also any suggestions on how to make him more attractive or more femine. hell have long blond hair.

09 September 2003, 02:23 AM
[>>also any suggestions on how to make him more attractive or more femine. hell have long blond hair.

Was this supposed to be feminine? If so the jaw needs to be much softer and make the nostrils less flared.

09 September 2003, 02:30 AM
no hes defiantly a male but i need him to be an atrractive male. allow me to explain. i see it as men fall into two kinds of attractivness rugged handsom and beautiful. examples of each.
harrison ford would be that rugged kinda of handsom whereas leonardo di caprio would be that beautiful kind. and so he takes on more femine traits.

this character will be an arch angel and so i need him to be male but beautiful as the same time.

09 September 2003, 09:10 AM
Right now the problems that I am seeing deal with the back of the head and the neck. I understand that a lot of people prefer to wait to fix the neck when they do the body, but it feels very thin and cartoonish. Try giving him a little more bulk and definition in this area. Also looking at the side angle he looks very young, boyish young. Take a look at the where the back of the head meets the neck, I think you may be a little low, try raising the back of the neck a little higher and begin to add the muscle. I do think that the jaw is a little too sharp, it seems like you are going for a muscular prettyboy look, but that does not happen all that often, if you want to make him beautiful consentrate more on flawless features and smooth skin, not on strong jaw lines and muscular definition. Also looking at the front of the head it appears too square, play with the temples and give the sides of the head a little more size, concentrate on forming a forehead.

09 September 2003, 10:32 AM
i thickend up the neck a little but i like to wait until i can stick his head on his shoulders. i also tried to soften his jaw line and make his features more smooth. i tried to build up the fore head but i think i may be to timid with it so let me know. im also hoping that i was able to fix the boxyness but ive been looking at this for a while. i tried refrencing justin timberlan for more boyish features but i also tried to keep him strong looking so please hit me with waht you got i would like to start the body soon. also i added ears duh, like you couldnt see that. and rendered in mental ray to make it nicer for you all.
oh and also are my lips looking flat or are they ok? thaks all.

F. Hultqvist
09 September 2003, 04:25 PM
It's getting better and better, but I think the ears are to close to his head, they almost look like they are indented into his skull a bit. Also, try playing around with the line (the opening) between his lips. It's much to straight right now, it looks somewhat unordinary.

Otherwise, it's coming along nicely.

09 September 2003, 04:56 PM
F. Hultqvist i love you, thats whats been bothering me about his lips but i had no clue what it was. i knew something was wrong but i man you hit the nail on the head thanx. ill also pull those ears out a little.

09 September 2003, 07:15 PM
I would like to go back to the topic of eyes.

The eyes look the right height, but they seem to fill the entire socket from side-to-side. While eyes are not perfectly round, I don't think they are that elliptical. Maybe their aren't any shadows in the ducts and thats what I'm seeing. Darken the tear ducts if you can, I think it'll make the eyes look more normal.

On second thought, if you want him to look a little inhuman, leave the eyes at their current size.

09 September 2003, 02:36 AM
ok so i tweaked th elips and i did a close up of the eye so u can see the tearduct area, also render it with more light so let me know if it still feels off to you Grosserfrosch.

also i pulled out the ear and rotatred it a little. ill concetrate on the neck muscles next and the throat. which leads me to my next BIG QUESTIOn

he will be an angel, so should i model an adams apple or not, and further more should i bother with eyebrows and eyelashes since he doesnt have to worry about desease or muturity. hell will look wierd with out them but it could be a cool effect. but with out them he will be less attractive so along with your C&C let me know your opion on this little matter

09 September 2003, 02:48 AM
I really like the way this is coming along. As for the eyebrow/eyelash question, if the angle will have hair I would put in the eyebrows, otherwise it will just look funny. I would leave out the eyelashes alltogether it will give a cleaner yet unhuman look that I think will work very nicely with an angel. As for the adams apple I would add it, typically the angels are known to be male in appearence and thus modeled after god, and that is one of the things that seperates man from woman.

I really like the eye right now and am very curious as to how you will texture and color the skin.

09 September 2003, 02:54 AM

lol, im curius how im gonna texture it also, im a much stronger modler than i am a texture artist.

thanks for the opion im in agreement with you, im planning on coloring him white like a pale white becuase i can really see them having a tan but ill use some blues in it so he not just white itll be intresting to go through the changes.

09 September 2003, 03:39 AM
Can't wait to see it finished. Personally I would like to see it with a very pale blue as well but with a touch of a glow to him. I think it would be a blast to play with the translucence of the skin and show a barely visible golden light from within.

09 September 2003, 07:49 AM
ok kids this is it for the night some last minute fine tunning and the neck, please holler what u like and what ya dont

09 September 2003, 08:53 PM
Try to squeeze him horizontaly a bit like this:

And correct the profile:

looks more natural.

09 September 2003, 01:40 AM
ok i made the changes but im nervous becuase now the proper proportions are off but i think it looks better so any feed back is welcomed. ive put them side by side for easy comparison
let me know if its too thin also they new ones arenot seamed. im not worried about the bieng identical halfs from mirroring infact im counting on it so that way he feels more perfect and less human.

09 September 2003, 07:52 PM
thanks for the tip zarkos, i think i thined him a little to much so i added just a little more width but not too much.

also i thought id freshen things with a concept sketch so hope u enjoy this intermission becuase after this its back to how many units uo should i move these 4 verts, lol.

09 September 2003, 10:12 AM
ok i have just started the abs, and im finding them a little tricky but feedback on the chest and shoulders is much app.

09 September 2003, 11:39 AM
wow the torso is looking really good you might want to spend a bit more time tweaking teh head to bring it up the same level. That said the shoulders could be a bit wider....
Great work overall congrats on really improving the model

09 September 2003, 04:18 PM
thanx, but please elaborate on what you mean about the head. ive been looking at it so long i need a fresh opion. yeeah shoulders need to be wider but im wait to add the arms to fix them.

09 September 2003, 07:13 AM
Can we get a Front/Side Wire of the head of where it stands now?

I know you've moved on from the head, but I think the upper lip looks really thin, and from the profile, the approach from the nose to the upper lip looks wierd. I can't really explain it, but it rounds out, like the bottom lip does. Let me see if I can find a referance...

Look how this guy's upper lip runs down from the nose, its straighter...

Take alook at more the profiles here,

Yeah, thats my biggest suggestion, a fuller upper lip might make him look more pretty as well.

The last thing I am wondering is, what if you gave him a bit more of a stronger brow?

Anyway, really great progression, but when you are modelling, keep a better eye on the perspective view. The front and side look great, but the perspective shot of it it still looks off.

Goodluck with the being the best in your class, remember, someone is only better then you if they are alive. :lightbulb Just kidding, don't kill anyone.

09 September 2003, 07:21 AM
hmmmm yes thats it ill kill everyone MUWAHAHAHAAHA... um

anyways ill get those out to you the side and front with wires. i likethe thought of a heavier brow. and i see what you mean about the lip. fuller lips are more attractive. great website by the way, thanks.

09 September 2003, 07:34 AM
Yeah, he wasn't exactly my example of 'fuller, prettier lips' but more about the smooth curve between nose and upper edge of the top lip. Before it arcs down to meet the bottom lip (you know, the kissy red part).

But remember, if you kill EVERYBODY, there is no one to be better then, you only kill your betters. Leave those not as good to revel you. Egos are fun. :)

09 September 2003, 04:21 PM
I tihnk that hole between muscles are to deep. Look at this thread to see what I think.

P.S. I noticed that you slowing down a bit? C'mon man finish that angel!!! :buttrock:

09 September 2003, 10:01 AM
ok, so heres a major revision, most of the front work is done, nothing on his back has been started so theat why you cant see nice wide lats but thats comming tommorow.

please keep in mind he is not seamed yet

some changes have been made to the face, thanks to a couple of points made by Akkalis. heavyr brow ridge and i played with the lips. if you wantr a close up let me know be mah pleasure.

not slowing down , i just had to take a day to kill the students better than me, and then ofcourse bask in the praise of those i am suppieor to.

and i have supplied new wireframes

09 September 2003, 06:18 PM
Its look good, and yeah, posts a closeup Front, Side, 1/3 of the head if you please.

Also, is this guy going to be used for animation? Because if so, you might want to clean up your mesh some by making the geometry flow as much as possible along the contours of the muscles. But thats a bit of nitpicking really, I don't think it would be much of a problem with his torso. Although, I would recommend giving it some thought on his shoulders as they are often a tricky area to get deforming properly.

Maybe somebody with more experiance could comment on the whole mesh thing, I know some say build a pretty model, not a pretty mesh, while others say a good mesh is key to a pretty model and nice deformations.

There was something else I was going to suggest, but it was really more of a 'if you like it, try it idea'. Oh yeah, looking at the really strong muscle formation on your guy's torso, it reminded me of a Roman style chest plate that you see people like Caesar wear in the movies. It might look cool if he WERE wearing such a breastplate, like the angels in Dogma. But looking at your design, you might be going for a more emotional feel, where armor and stuff might look out of place.

In anycase, mesh revisions or no, armor or no, you're model is definately shaping up to be a pretty good one. And out of curiousity, which school do you go to? ... or should I just wait for the news of several students murders at school X? :P

09 September 2003, 07:32 PM
thanks guys,

i will get those closeups on here later tonight when i get home from work.

the mesh is a little messy but ive been trying to keep it flowing enough for smooth animation. the end goal is going to be an animation about the fall of lucifer from grace. so after i madel him im also going to deform him so we can watch him change from angel into devil. im very excited about this project. im kinda dreading the shoulders a little bit but not to much im hoping to clean up the shoulder chest deforms with some blend shaping and influence objects to try and get some really nice muscle movements and have eveything be set driven.

ive been thinkingabout what to have him wear, playing with different ideas. i like the thought on roman armor but for his tranformation im goona need the freedom that only a loin cloth can give me. so its be just like the sketch.

i goto school in south florida at florida atlantic university, im in the masters program. its a pretty good program but you have to be very very motivated, theres no hand on teaching. everything is pretty much self taught with a collective mind for problem solving. the focus more on an artistc aspect rather than a technical aspect most of the time. but then i dont think you can be inthis field and not be motivated OO-RAH

09 September 2003, 05:17 AM
ok here we go i gots lots of images for you guys, nothing really new but i did redo the torso for more anitomical corectness. and i also cleaned up the faces to try and make a nicer mesh as was pointed out to me, and im sure i will be thanking Akkalis later when i start animating and he deforms nicly.

asn as youll see the are close up head shots with wireframes. well enough talk lets LOOK AT SOME PICTURES!!!!

this one is just a forshadow of when he turns evil.

09 September 2003, 05:17 AM

09 September 2003, 05:18 AM

09 September 2003, 10:29 AM
Disclaimer: Its currently 6am, I have not slept, this may not make sense or even be spelled correctly (origionally spelled collectly) ... that being said...

Its look good, you did a fairly nice job cleaning up that torso, things seem more orderly now which I am sure you will enjoy if you have to start painting weights line by line.

Something is still bothering me about the head, and I think its because the sides are really flat, and the face is fairly flat too. Try pulling the cheek bones and the sides of the brow back a little. The pull the sides of the head (above the brow) out just every so little and see if it gives you a more natural look, or just destroys it.

The topology of the face looks really good, especially around the mouth area which you'll love later on when it comes to doing blendshapes, or a facial rig depending on the way you want to do it. (I'd actually recommend both after a sort) but I still don't like that top lip. Its better, but there is still something about it that doesn't seem natural to me...

Here, take a look at these lips of mine (which are, somewhat unfinished as you will see), and maybe you will see what I mean about the top lip's shape. Anyway, its now 6:30am, my head is pounding and the caffine is all gone. So goodnight, I hope the picture helps, as I can't really explain what I mean.

OH! one last thing, join the two halves before you post, it shouldn't take long to snap the edges verts to the 0 plane, merge the two haves, and distance weld the two halve's together. Plus, you don't see the full effect of the smooth down the center if you don't.

God, they reduced the attachment to 20k, let me host real quick and link. :banghead:

09 September 2003, 07:52 AM
OH BOY KIDS i have added a few things, big things are the arms and back. some minor chages to the face and abs and obliques. tell me what yu think so i can make those changes. thanx all.

i also had to take down some of the older pics but they were bad so its better this way.

09 September 2003, 07:53 AM

09 September 2003, 11:54 AM
not too frickin bad!!!

The sideview on your last render seems off. Something to do with the neck and how it joins. Somethings off there with the proportions but I can't place my finger on it. I think the lower neck (the part where it joins with the spine) might be too thick.

What do you guys think.

09 September 2003, 06:49 PM
Yeah, I'd agree the back of the neck where it meets the spine is definately a little thick, and reachs too high on the back of the neck, atleast to be normal. Also, I am just wondering, the muscles on the front are really hard and cut in, but on the back they seem much less cut, and a bit more natural and not "super firm." I like the back, a lot, as it is now, I am just wondering if the level of detail needs to be more balance.

Anyway, its great work, I assume its the best in the class now?

09 September 2003, 07:06 PM
i was playing wiht the thickness since hell have wings i thought maybe the neck muscle should be thicker since they branch up from the traps but if its bot looking right i can change that becuase it is waaay to thick.

as for the back, of course bieng a good little modler i have tons of refrence material 4 books open to the area of that im working on, and here was the thing. i agree the back seems a lot less defined then the front. but heres the thing the front of the body has a lot of tiny muscles that stand outthe abs obliques they all seperate them selves from the other muscles and stand out even at rest making it look really ripped. but the back has huge chunks of muscles that unless they are flexed dont stand out as seprate muscle groups. so thats they way i modled it.

BUUUUUUT if its not looking right ill fore go whats right to make it look good. so let me hear you opions on which way i should go on these two topics

im gonna go with yes im the best in my class now... at least untill they find the bodies:thumbsup:

09 September 2003, 08:28 PM
Nah, leave the back as is. I like it, and I am sure once you get the wings on its going to make it look a lot more beefy, since you'll have to create a whole muscle structure to support that.

Looks, good, now finish it. :P

09 September 2003, 07:09 AM
man im trying to finnish it, still got lots to do. legs and feet and the wings which i am SOOOOO looking forward to doing. but for u today i have a hand. so come on kids give this hard working modler a hand and tell him what u think.
let me know if u want a dif view, soon it will be attached to the body im gonna wait for feedback first, and now off to the legs.

09 September 2003, 07:32 AM
The fingers look too uniform and boxy.

I suggest, have both sides of the middle finger fairly straight. For the index finger, have the side that borders the middle finger straight, but have the outside slightly curved inward toward the middle finger. Same with the Ring finger, straight next to middle, curved on the outside, and keep it up with the pinky as well. Its probably not 100% an anatomical thing, but I read it once in an old classical animation book, and I've liked the look it gives since.

Bottoms of the fingernails also seem a bit flat, not rounded enough. Also, show a more side on of the hand as well, and maybe the palm.

Heh, I suppose soon I will have to post what I am working on, and let people take a swing at me. But I am on vacation, and not working that hard, though I should be.

09 September 2003, 08:30 AM
you know akkalis i think ur the only one who cares anymore. at least u give good comments. so i have rounded off the fingers making them less boxy, good call on that, and rounded the finger nail tips and put n the curves which u suggested, and they are just suttles enough to make a huge differencei have also posted all four view for you.

09 September 2003, 07:19 PM
Eh, I get email notification whenever a thread I've posted on is updated, and I've got a lot of free time currently. Hrm, there is a lot of work to be done. The fingers themselves could still use work, especially the bottoms. More then just having creases below the joints, the length between them on the bottom is generally a bit more rounded, so you get a slight bulge between the creases. Also the palm and stuff needs huge amounts of work getting it to be a bit more believable, right now it looks rather contrived and not natural.

The default pose its in right now is quiet extreme, for myself to put my hand in that pose, I have to bend up wrist upwards, and then push stretch all my fingers back. Our fingers, or atleast mine, tend to have a slight curl on them, when they are relaxed. The thumb looks wrong in the side view, but I am not sure as to why. I think the fingers are the knuckles are a bit too think for the how narrow they get at the ends (but that could be because of the post). Also, the finger tips... The pads need to be more rounded... let me see if I can explain what I mean. The top of the last one is fairly flat, while the bottom gradually rounds into the bottom of the nail, so there is a gradual curve the whole length of it. Basically pull back the verts on the bottoms near the tip to make transition a bit more gradual, and the rounded just infront of the finger nail. Which brings us to the next thing I noticed that's distracting me. The fingernails look a better from the top now, but from the front they are really flat. I know some peoples are sort of like that, especially when they are too long. They should be more curved from the front, and from the top, the flatty pads of the finger tip should round out past the nail just before they meet (if this guy has clipped nails anyway).

Anywho, I assume you are working with referance, keep at it. There is a lot of visible underlying structure in our hands which makes them hard to do. Especially hard, because you've set a detailed trend with the REST of your model. I've heard that way back when, if you could model hands you were going to have no problem finding a job (now that was back in the olden days, and doubtfully is still true, infact, I am pretty certain it isn't as simple as that anymore).

I'd also recommend for the future, building a default set of hands you can work from. Its not laziness, its being efficent. I mean, unless the character calls for REALLY specific hands, some modifications to a default set should be good. As to why I comment so much, I am in a bit of a lazy state at the moment, and my own projects in the 3D realm are loosing ground to Morrowind, so long as I give some good critique, and see where you go wrong, and have some suggestions on improving its -almost- like I made the mistake. :beer:

Anyway, maybe I'll do some more of my own work, and post it.

09 September 2003, 08:10 PM
ok, here are new hands i also tired beefing up his arms and back a little and moved his shoulders back a bit i think they were to far foward, there a fewminor things on the back, i think i have the vert pinching to much making a wierd dimple and im gonna excenuate the traps a little more but let me hear waht yall think

09 September 2003, 08:49 PM
Hands are getting there, fingers still look a bit strange. You're right about the pinching, keep going.

09 September 2003, 09:35 PM
Hi! didn't follow your work for a while. I think that you don't need those veins on his hands right now, you can do it later with bump maps. Finger is smaller than mine (I don't know about others :rolleyes: ) and profile is a little bit strange. Ohhh.. I'm so bad english speaker, here's pictures:

09 September 2003, 06:37 AM
ok, i need some help onthe forearms, something feels wrong but i cant see what it is. please ignore the fabulous legs they are there only for scale otherwise the forearms look waaay to long. i have also made the other corections to the hands and chest and moved the shoulders back a little

ill also post a couple of clsoe ups

09 September 2003, 07:02 AM
Wrists should probably be closer to his hips, near the old ass level. And those veins area really strong, you might want to tone them down a lot, or get rid of them for now.

09 September 2003, 09:08 AM
ok, i needed a little break, it is 430 am for me so i had to ahve some fun, so heres a clorofull render but its not all an exrexicise in lighting the colors and light are hopefully accentuating his muscle structure for u to see. i relly like mental ray

09 September 2003, 08:53 AM
ok i tired to get a lot done, im hopoing toi have him fitted with a nice pair of feets soon and then wings kids thats right big feathery wings

09 September 2003, 09:01 AM
The area where leg meets body looks too strong. (its late, and I am out of lengthy replies, sorry!) Legs also seem realy siniousy (if thats a word...lanky, long thin muscles) that doesn't seem to fit with the upper body. Minor muscles near the legs seem really large and apparent as well. Knees don't seem really there, looks just like more muscle.

09 September 2003, 09:06 AM
cool, yes sinuis is a word but i think niether of us spelled it right. ill smooth out the muscles and ill lengthen the torso id rather him be long then short and stocky. thanx again Akkalis.

09 September 2003, 09:53 AM
It may just be because his feet aren't on, but his upper legs look a touch long.

09 September 2003, 12:13 AM
Sorry for the late crits but I just caught up on this thread. It looks pretty sweet I really like the progression from the first head. It looks a lot better now. I am also modeling a male (albeit very slowly) and I've been collecting refs and looking at tutorials and I found a useful hand tutorial. It's in spanish but babelfish can take care of that and the pictures are the most useful part. I think it would help the way your nails and second joint on the each finger look. You can find it here click ( . I like the ribs and chest maybe the abs could be a little more subtle, but you are going for the muscley look. Another problem I noticed was the brachial artery. I think it pops too much and is too straight not wrapping around the arm enough. The way you have modeled the legs seems awkward for rigging because it looks like they are locked out. Maybe a more relaxed pose would lend to better deformation. I'm not so sure on the last crit though because to be honest i'm unexperienced in rigging.

Crap my bad the viens/ateries you made were on the top of the arm and hand not the bottom. Anyways they are still a bit strong and maybe too straight. Sorry about that.

09 September 2003, 10:28 AM
well i was going to post a new update but maya crashed afte an hour of seaming him together while i was saving so ill post tommorw.

thanks for the hand link though. yeah i have to reavaluat the viens but i am overly excited about the wings so im trying to get ti them next and save the viens for later. but ill probaly end up doing them first.

09 September 2003, 09:48 AM
ok, i know there are some issues mainly with the ankels i think but i cant see them ive been working too long and its 5 in the am and im on 4 hours sleep. i also put on the wings to get a feeling for them. he will have two set of wings these will be his devil wings for after the transformation. the primary set of wings will be big and feathery but i will be paenting all the featehrs so i can have them fall away aas he delivers his speach.

ive been looking at this a lot in the last couple of days guys but its all starting to look the same so give me some good stuff i need yalls eyes my are broke. thanx guys/gals

09 September 2003, 06:42 PM
The wings definately need more evidance of bone/muscle structure, that should be your big thing with them. Also, do you intend for these wings to deform? If so put some thought into how you want to rig it now, and do a little R&D with the wing deformations before you finish it.

I still think the leg muscles look wierd, mainly from the side/back. Also, I think if you're going to have the muscle on the side of the leg, just above the knee, so roundly formed, the rest should be a bit closer to it as well.

Take a look at this, its kind of stylized anatomy from a comic view. (it was one of the best things I could find that match what you're attempting)

Image from (

Keep going.

09 September 2003, 07:30 PM
there is too much of a gap between the rib cage and pelvis, causing your figure to look really stretched out. also your legs are a tad long for the torso, youll notice if you fix the gap. hands look a tad small too. might want to try making the wrist bones more prominant because it looks funky now.

09 September 2003, 05:37 AM

well i think i have come to the close of modeling unless anyine has issues with anything if so please tell me, ive been working hard at making any and all corrections from the crits. i am thankfull fro all the help. so if we are good to go ill begin the texturing phase.

also if any one would like a new or different shot let me know.

2 more things at hirez smooth he is about 50,000 faces but at LOREZ he is about 13500 and i have poster a front lorez as well.

09 September 2003, 06:03 AM
Hey ukyo, the model is looking really good!
The biggest issue I have with the model is the eyes. If you scaled them down to maybe 70% of what you have now it would look so much better I believe. Also you should round the butt off a bit, give him a navel and maybe widen the kneecaps a bit.:)

Good work!

09 September 2003, 06:06 AM
hmmm, ill play with the eyes a little bit and see how they work smaller. as for a bellybutton hes gets none because hes an angel and why would an angel have a bellybutton

and i think ur right on the kneecap thing could be a little wider thanx, heres a wireframe

09 September 2003, 07:12 PM
I still thing the wings could use some more resolution to make them more boney, so the struture of them stands out more... Right now bone an skin seem to run into each other too subtly.

09 September 2003, 10:55 AM
ok, i have some preliminary textures going here and im pretty happy with them.

heres my thought process to explain the textures.

i think that as an angel he would have no melanin or very little,

also when i made him pure whit it looked wrong so i aded in some chaos and randomness but as little as possible. also i n thought he needed a little color. he will be getting eyebrows soon and hair as well. so i guess just anyfeedback so i can decide if i like this direction or not.

09 September 2003, 09:40 PM
Great work all around.
As for the textures and face that pale and
heavenly look is working nicely, but his nose is
first thing that throws you off.
It lacks little more character in that deparment.
I know angels shouldnt show too much of it,
but less uniform definition and more natural
connection between the root of the nose
and upper lip can be good in his case.

10 October 2003, 09:31 AM
his nose and mouth seem a tad to stretched horizontally and i would like it better if the wrinkles around his face where not so strong

10 October 2003, 01:13 AM

your model is looking very cool.. It is most definitely going to rock in class.

Do you plan on making the wings leathery or with feathers? I'm thinking if you do feathers you can probably get away with bump mapping. I'm gonna dig up some of my old x-men stuff with Angel and see if there's something there I can help you with.


PS- I have been practicing in WC3.. Next time we play, I have a can of something I'm going to open up on ya!

10 October 2003, 08:40 AM
hello people sorry i havent posted in a while but ive been rigging and weighting for the last 3 weeks, its my weakpoint. but heres a couple of shots with his winged feathers, and soon ill have hair on him.

10 October 2003, 01:32 AM
Damn fancy in the way its turning out (much fancier looking then the damn Lotus Elise a teacher is forcing me to model in Nurbs without any trims) but your feathers look realy flat, and some of them have some very hard edges (like straight lines, I think its a tesselation problem. Right now there doesn't seem to be a lushness to the wings that would make them look feathery. Are they just flat polies? Maybe adding some curves to them would be cool... If not, its a neat peice of work anyway considering. It looks like you are trying to cut in some of the 'fluff' with geometry and your best bet might be to use some crazy shading network. Anyway, this was a momentary distraction from my own homework, so now I must be back at that.

And if you already didn't know, When five NURBs surfaces meet, when they are all supposed to make one smooth UV surface, its hell.

10 October 2003, 08:46 AM
ok, so i went back in and reworked the feathers pulled here and ther and bent this and that, i hope this fixes it let me know. hair should be on him soon, doing some refrencing and tips would be appreciative.

10 October 2003, 01:11 PM
Nice wings!

10 October 2003, 09:07 PM
They most definately look better now. What about layering them more, or simply adding more layers to full them out?

10 October 2003, 10:39 AM
well im not sure if im allowed to do this or not but im gonna post this image n the font of my post as well. if im not let me know moderators and ill fix it back.

at anyrate i have tried playing with the feather to soften them and he has hair now. the BG is still in the works but the feeling i want is there. his lightingis also a little washed out im loosing some of the nice subtl blues and pinks in the skin so i have to drop the ligts even more.

mostly im looking for C&C on the feathers and hair and ofcourse any other comments are wlecomed.

10 October 2003, 11:32 AM
maybe try to make more chaos between feathers, they look too ordered, also could be less air inbetween -- i think with these wings would be impossible to fly away -- make them look more massive but keeping the lightweight feel ... not easy.

i think you can slowly start workin on the background atmosphere.

btw. the figure makes me think of a siggraph anim some years ago...

10 October 2003, 05:22 PM
It looks nice, a bit biblically cliche (but that doesn't mean bad). The wings are kind of neat, because they look stylized now too. The pose itself doesn't do anything for me and the leg he isn't kneeling on doesn't quiet look natural, the ankle looks broken to me.

What are you trying to say with the pic, or is it just meant to look cool?

10 October 2003, 06:19 PM
barackmag do u remeber what year of siggraph or even better what animation so i can check it out, id hate to be acused of ripping somebody off. if i know then i can make some alterrations or at the least be aware of it later if it should ever come up in a negivtive light.

well it is ofcourse meant to look cool buut, im trying to get the feeling of a fallen angel reaching for the last blessing light of gods grace. ill take the biblical cliche as a compliment becasue later when i move onto the animation its all about the fall of lucifer.

im not completly happy with the pose and the lighting is bithering me a lot i wanted more dramitic lighting like caravagio so im gonna have to re-evauluate.

i also need to fill some of the patches in the wings as well as make them more massive. its ok that his wings cant support flight becuase angels wings dont really make them fly they are really there for aesthtics or atleast that what a lot of my research said.

its not ok if they dont look good or if this not suporting flight feels hurts the peice then i would need to go in a scale them up which i may do anyways but i need them to be able to move smoothly and if they get to big some of his geturs and poses my be to over the top.

10 October 2003, 08:24 PM
Hrm, if he is a Fallen Angel, maybe give him a bit more defeated slouch. He's been cast down, so he's likely somewhat shameful (if he is making an appeal to the heavens) so maybe tilt his head down, as if he is ashamed to cast his face upward. The hand that crosses his body really doesn't read well. I'd say put it up too, but you want to avoid twinning... Also, the back most wing kind off obscures the hand... maybe if that wing was lower, or if even both wings were arc forward with feathers trailing in the dirt. His wings really have the American Eagle spread of glory, which doesn't seem to fit a 'fallen angel' in my minds eye. As for lighting, the streaky stuff doesn't do anything for me, it makes it look more 'photoshopped' then classic, although it DOES have sort of an old bible art feel.

Try putting some red light below him, a whiter/yellow light above, and some colder blue lights at about his level. Lighting is powerful, try and suggest the mood through it, and think cliche colors.. White pure, red, blue cold, etc. You don't have to OVER do it, but using it with a subtle grace is cool.

10 October 2003, 10:26 PM
u sir have excellent eyes and taste, and if i can make front page ill be thanking u. good suggestions.

10 October 2003, 03:00 AM
Hey, don't flatter my too much. You've got a great model going there. The head could still use work, but heads tend to be impossible to get until you've done them a awful number of times, especially with your level of detail. Your body is fantastic though.
Personally I've only ever tried to do 'photo' real for a human once, and I quickly got bored of it. You deserve your own props just for sticking with it.

10 October 2003, 03:12 AM
Intresting model, but wouldnt a fallen angel have his wings cut off?

You could be really grewsome and just mangle the wings, if you have seen dogma then that could be some inspiration

10 October 2003, 04:12 AM
True Lukaski, but even in Dogma, the fallen Angels had their wings till they cut them off themselves to become mortal in the end.

10 October 2003, 05:34 AM
lukashi in the end this will be an animation about the fall of lucifer in which he will change from beautiful to twisted demon and his feathers will fall out to give birth to his demonic form as a transition tool. but i am also gonna submit some stills to the gallery and hope for front page i am gonna post a featherd pose and a leatherd wing posed when all is said and done but the end goal is an animation.

10 October 2003, 07:38 PM
thats cool, you might wanna check out the work by Gustave Dore, it should be pretty inspiration if you have not gone thru it already...

10 October 2003, 03:09 AM
its funny that u mention that, he is actually one of the major refrences i refer to.

10 October 2003, 05:14 AM
heres a couple of quick render tests for the hair to double check. im working on his final pose for the still before i start to animate. but i think im gonna start a new thread in the new critique forum for the emotional peoices for the still and then change this link towards animation. his face isnt deformed here either but it will be later i wanna try and keep a few surpises

11 November 2003, 07:56 PM
here is the first of two images im gonna post into the finnaler gallery forum let me hear your thoughts. im really please with the way things turned out and im super excited to turn over to the animatin portion of this peice. this first pic is lucifer after he has lost his wings the next pic will be him reaching out to heaven but he will still have his wings.

11 November 2003, 01:43 AM
You need an environment. I can see where the plane ends, and its not even deformed. Also, I can't make out any definition of the upper body, its all over exposed. And again, foggy light effects look odd when there is no trace of it elsewhere. A smokey light can only really happen where there is some debris in the air, and the rest of your image is really clean.

11 November 2003, 01:44 AM
One other thing... he has feathers in his hands, bloody stubs on his back, where did his wings go though?

11 November 2003, 05:37 AM
any suggestions on what to do with the enviorment to dirty it up. i really light the spot light and i would like to keep it but i see what u mean with the air it should have mor ein it but im not sure how to fix it. im not sure what to do about a bg eitherwhen orignally the bg was to dark to see the plan clip like that but when i played wiht the levels it poped out a little so it wasnt my intention to even really include a bg. so im open to suggestions

11 November 2003, 07:51 AM
Grab a nurbs plane, give it a fair bit of resolution, then grab the scuplt tool (I think thats the exact name, 4am ATM, and can't think too straight) and start painting. I assume from the texture it supposed to be some sort of underground, so make it look like he is in some rock cavern underground... have those hangy and pokey things (which I won't even attempt to name, and thus spell).

11 November 2003, 07:53 AM
stalaticks or stalagmites somehting like that, and as for the fog any suggestions hmmmm.

11 November 2003, 07:54 AM
Make it foggy in photoshop is the fastest way I can think of.

11 November 2003, 02:23 AM
ok kids like i promised i have now switched this over to the animation phase. i will of course be continuing this post in the evoke forum if u would like to watch the updates of the still there
please follow the link below

follow me to the new forum (

now below is the animatic for the first part of my animation. i already know that there are a few less then good poses but im not gonna say ill let u see for ur self and get a good laugh. the phrase JAZZ HANDS should have a lot of meaning in a little bit.

but please what i am looking for now are comments on the poses ill try and have it animated soon but im mostly worried about good clean poses and any suggestions on camera angels as i am still rouhing them out. thank everybody for ue help so far.

oh its about 14 mbs and is dvix coded.

i closed this link please move onto the new updated moving version 2 posts down

i ofcourse suggest doing a right click save as

11 November 2003, 10:00 AM
sorry kids i was just informed i gave out a broken linkit has been repaired so do as u will

11 November 2003, 05:38 AM
its going nicely, but it will be alot of work to get it done, the voicew was cool too, did you make it? I cant wait to hear/see the rest of it

its hard to crit because its at an early stage so some of the poses arent perfectly done yet, but good luck

11 November 2003, 05:35 AM
hi kids i just wanted to give an update ive been animating like a mad man and i will have 3 playblasts for u all soon haopfully tonight. so i hope ur as excited to see them as i am to show them ive been putting in a lot of work and im eager to get all ur feedback.

11 November 2003, 09:45 AM
ok kids here the first 2 parts of 4 im hoping to get the other 2 parts up tommorow but i ran into some timming issues.

Some things to keep in mind as u watch and crit is that this is obviuosly not the camera im going to use. i have multiple camera cuts planned i just wanted to check my timming and motions. im hoping to have a new movie with the cameras soon by friday.

also this is the lo rez model and the feathers are turned off to save time. i think that s all. looking foward to the feedback.

oh each movie is 13mb and is divx coded.

playbast part 1 (

playblast part 2 (

oh yeah if links arnt working let me knowso i can get correct ones up there for ya all.

11 November 2003, 11:22 AM
Wow, the tones of the muscles are really shown off in those animations. I havn't read all the posts but at the start you said you were going for a boyish charm, more feminine face like leonardo de caprio. If thats so, you see him to be this well built?

I think that'll be very strange, you need a tougher face, not rough necessarily but not feminine at all i dont think that will look realistic.


11 November 2003, 05:34 PM
Lookin sweet man! Will there be any cuts? Or, are you going to stick w/ the stationary camera?

Maybe my eye isn't trained enough yet to where I can give a super critique, but here goes.
I'd just keep a focus on the weight transfering when he's moving from side to side. For example, ~41 secs into the first movie. Maybe the foot should plant before the weight transfer.
I like the theatrical poses.
The muscle deformations in the upper body look great. Maybe exagerate the calf muscles a little more. They look as if they are constantly flexed/stiff. Chicks would be go-go all over this guy. ;)

~4 seconds into the second clip @ "not the others" I might wind up for that movement.

There's my $.02

11 November 2003, 06:15 PM
thats a really good suggestion on the calves i completly forgot to do deformers for the calf muscles, so much to keep track of it gets a little much even with proper notes.

11 November 2003, 09:19 AM
Its good, but as some others have said it needs more weight. He seems to float into some poses, its hard to say quickly which ones, but some float in others hit them nicely. It might be a timing and curves issue, but as mentioned before there are some places where the feet definately need to plan more... Unless he is using his wings and floating (but the wings aren't moving, so its either not done yet, or he isn't floating). Also, facial animation is definately going to be needed, and a lot of it.
Its not cartoony in appearance or presentation so that just tripled your work. Overall, your body movements is coming along aside for a bit of floatiness in places, but everything from the next up really deserves your focus (not only face, but head direction and such as well). I felt at times the head like in a lot of animations didn't receive any real focus, yet.
Anyway, keep working, its coming along.

11 November 2003, 10:04 AM
yeah the head defiantly needs work and his feet do float here and there but thats becuase i wasnt 100% on the cameras but ive labored to create another playblast with my preliminary camera work. so hopefully this will fix those floating issues but i need to go back to the head.

the wings have not been given any key frames yet.

and yes i think i have completly murdered and buried my social life with all the facial aniamtion im gonna need for him but its soooo gonna be worth it.

i need to expalin one motion that wont make any sense until the final peice is rendered. he reaches out and pulls back like hes holding something at about half way through the animaiton his feathers start to fall out as they fall out a wind will start t blow and sweep away the last of angelic grace he reaches out and grabs the last peuice of a lost life he shall never know again and then lets it go along with the last of his revernece for god.

so im really looking for crits on the motion and timing and camera angels thanx guys

new animatic (

11 November 2003, 02:59 PM
WOW, this is gonna be good once it's done.. There is SO much added now that I see the geometry of the wings and your cuts. IMO, the wings need a bunch more animation. Those puppies look like they have some weight to them. In Lucifer's rotating motion, they should swing a bit with residual animation Note @~ 47 seconds and @~ 1:25. Also, I would concider those wings as another natural appendage on him. If you had wings, you'd most likely express yourself with them also, like another pair of arms. i.e.- down in dispair or spread/lashing/flapping in moments of intensity. Like @~ 14 seconds, keep that going. They would also add very very much to many of your cuts as far as composition. The cut where he grabs some feathers and then pushes them away is very powerful. I think that it could be exagerated a bit if Lucifer stays looking down for maybe a full one or two seconds more after the cut @~1:57.
SWEET transition from bird's eye to worm's eye @~1:24.

You've put a lot of time into this, it shows.

11 November 2003, 10:44 AM
thanks cuse, it took a lot of work and i think im still gonna need some blend shapes to help some more. i had an idea of what i wanted him to look like but after modling and tweaking he has kind of taken on his own life which i am pleased about. all in all he is what i wanted but i allowed the modeling process to guide its self with out bieng to rigided with it. plus all the help ive ben given by the most wonderful cgtalk memebers.

i will have a new playblast for u all soon. i have gone back to fix some of the camera work and speed up or sharpen some movements so he doesnt float. there are still a couple of movements that im struggling with to fix but i wont say ill wait for u all to point them out to make sure im not over analizing. i also took out some camera moves to simplify and strngthen other cameras.

there is still no wing animation that is comming next i need to lock down camerra work before i animated the wings so i can know what my compositoion space will be.

so please any crits on the camreas will be greatly welcomed. thanx kids. also most of my camera will be held cameras with only a couple moving cameras. mostly so i can save time on renders but im willing to sacrifce time to render a moving camera if it will make a shot stronger so please feel free to coment on that as well as anything that strikes your fancy.

11 November 2003, 02:11 PM
I have a question for u all. This time I’m looking for opinions from everyone on this matter. It’s really really important.

i had pretty much decided that i was not going to give him horns because I thought I would be too much of a cliché. He (Lucifer) is already going to be dark red with leather bat wings i thought that would be enough. I didn’t want to get to clichés. Also I wanted him to retain some of his beauty by distorting his features but leaving him with some remnance of his former beauty and I thought that horns might be a little much.

Further more he will have his long black hair so i am not sure how much of the horns we will see. it was suggested I could add in horns and have them visible only when the wind blows so they would act as a supplement.

here are some rendered out stills. they r still with out hair, its a bit of a bear to get working properly.

11 November 2003, 02:22 PM
I like the horns if only because they add something other then Red to the character, also right now they really add something to the head, because as you said there is no hair, and it looks empty.

In the second shot I think they also add to the Silhouette value of the pose. While the devil having horns might seem cliche, its also one of the three big identifers of the modern devil/demons.

Anyway, thats my kneejerk reaction to it.

11 November 2003, 04:26 PM
I don't want to impose on the look of your character at all, but like Akkallis said, this is my knee jerk reaction.
As it stands,, everything is looking pretty "CG" and a bit like that dude from "Legend" Remember? ( To me, it looks like a lambert shader with a color map attached to it, which isn't super exciting, but it could be. I think if you spent some time painting in some grit, it would look a lot better. I took a second to make you some reference.

If you watch X2, nightcrawler is where I'm bringing my ideas from. Here, I just grabbed a couple shots of the action figure and changed the hue and painted in some darker areas. I think if the color was darker, almost black in places, it would give Lucifer a more believable look. I'd give a good amount of attention to the wings as well. I think they are very important to pull off well. As for the horns, if you're going to use them, maybe something more elaborate would be in order. The small horns are a bit cliche for me. Plus, if this is the prince of darkness, he'd probably be more self-involved than that, and have really big horns. Not the cute little devil horns that women typically tattoo on their butt. Although, that is sometimes nice. ;)
Example ( Sorry, I couldn't find one with the butt too. Also, did you think to maybe just have him a darker skin color, with heavier/darker features and the bat wings? Just a thought.

01 January 2004, 10:46 PM
hi everybody i know it been forever and a day since i posted anything new but trying to get this thing ready to render hass been a real bear. i have a new draft. still onoy a playblast but it has camera moves and all three enviorments. the animation is still a little rough but i think most of its there. so please any comments are as always welcomed.

the avi is about 45mb i think and is a divx codec. it has music and an intoduction title. sorry for such aa large files size but hopefully itll be worth it.

download me (

02 February 2004, 05:01 AM
You've got a lot of lipsync to do, and general head animation. It really needs some, especially in the early parts. I really like the staging in the end, but the opening set is a little iffy. Also, I think the change from voice to demon voice is a bit too quick, I think it should almost ramp up slowly enough you don't notice it.

I fear the lipsync might be all but impossble to do though, no matter how good the rest of it looks, you're going to need some pretty spectacular blends to pull it off.

Goodluck :P

02 February 2004, 06:18 AM
ive spent a considerable amount of time on the blendshapes, instead of setting up phenome shapes i created muscle groups for the face so im hoping that will help in creating the realness ill need.

im ok withthe voice change but i will play with making it slower and see how it plays out.

the intro enviorment will play a lot better once things are lighted and textured, the use of color will take on a very important roll. ill be using some nice oranges and yellows with blues and pruples for contrast for a really nice painterly feel.

the lipsynch has been very slow going though and quite painful but in the end im hoping that the setup that ive gone through with the muscle group blendshapes will make it work. hopefully ill have a new playblast by friday with lipsynche finnished.

04 April 2004, 10:29 AM
Man o man has this ever been an ongoing project from hell with some insane render issues. the lipsynching was a lot harder than i thought either that or there was just too much of it. but ive decided to call a wrap on this project and move on to bat boy i will be posting that very soon. so for all of you who might still be intrested ill post some preview shots and ofcourse a link to the animation.

its about 4 min sorry its so long but ive been told ot doesnt feel that long. its about a 25mb download coded with divx i will also be putting up a really hirez version but thats like 90mb so its good luck to those who want it.

i want to thank everyone who offered crit and comps i really appreciate the help and i look forward to hearing from you all on future posts.

if i dont catch you here then maybe ill catch u in the finnished forum ill be posting in there as well.

link to download (

04 April 2004, 10:29 AM

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