View Full Version : Character: Female Runway Model

08 August 2003, 07:29 AM
This project has become the joint effort of two professional artists, working together to achieve as much realism out of the female form as possible.

We are currently modeling in 3DSMax, but our software path may change depending on our needs for rigging, hair, and rendering.

Certain parts have received much more attention than others, and it should be quite obvious. The ears and hands are still relatively untouched, I just finished a first pass on the feet and toes, which have a long way to go as well.

This character has been slowly worked on for over 2 months now and still has a long, long way to go.

Here are some renders and wires. More should follow in the next couple days.

We have been doing our best to point out every noticable flaw to each other within the area we are currently working on, but sometimes it takes some fresh eyes to see things more clearly. Please feel free to consult your own Victoria's Secret catalogs and post comments on what we need to fix up.

We hope you all enjoy.


08 August 2003, 07:31 AM

08 August 2003, 07:32 AM
Some wires--

08 August 2003, 08:38 AM
Hi, looks rather good, you've got nice and clean geometry.

I find the ears a tadd to large, other then that I have no remarks. Now I'm just waiting to se the textures on her as well.

08 August 2003, 09:13 AM
Great model, I love the arms and shoulders, the only place I see that could use definition would be the ribs, but even without it looks great.

08 August 2003, 12:11 PM
Yeah it looks good actually...I don't even think the ears look too big. They'll usually look that way because we are used to seeing hair on people but on most bald heads ears tend to stick out. Any way I don't find it unattractive.
I'd say make the legs longer and cruvier for a runway model, but that becomes subjective criticism...
If she's going to be animated maybe you don't need so many polys around the navel area that might crease weird if she leans foreward depending on where your joints are.

I like :D
...what do her legs and feet look like like from the side ??

08 August 2003, 03:56 PM
Amazing model :buttrock: :buttrock: :buttrock:

Some C&C for you:

The torso as near as I can tell is flawless. All her anatomical proportions and internal anatomy is perfectly placed to create a stunningly beautiful body. Niiiiiiiice:cool:

For some reason her face looks too big, not the head but the face on the head, if you kind of know what I mean. I observed this from the full frontal shot. Mind you its just an opinion.

Probably the most noticeable area that need to be addressed is the legs, as already pointed out. The upper leg is generally fine but the lower legs, I'm sorry to say, are anything but sexy. Just keep studying photos of that part of the leg specifically and do small drawings to try and figure out what that part of the leg is actually doing. The effect you have hear looks as if you grabbed her feet and pulled them down stretching the ankles. However, the leg length appears to be accurate for a runway model.

I won't comment on the ears or hands as you said they are still WIPs.

The eye lids are another area that could use some adjusting. Specifically, the thickness/fleshiness of both the upper and lower lids could be increased, they look almost paper thin from that close shot.

The general nose shape is fine but the nostrils could use some tweaking to make them more natural. Nose are tricky things to do. I had to make like 10 before I managed to "See" what a nose really looks like.

The mouth also has a couple of areas that could be modified for added realism. The corners of the mouth where the upper lip curls over the lower lip needs to be worked on. One thing that would help would to make that little fleshy fold at the side of the mouth that the lips curve into when she smiles. This feature is usually more prominent on male face than on young females but even young faces have something there to.

I hope this helps.

Dynamite modeling, I almost want to post mine to show everyone that I'm not full of it with my brazen comments.

Keep up the great work !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

08 August 2003, 04:28 PM
Thanks so far for the critiques...

kamsvag>> We'll look into the actual size of the ears one we get to fine tuning their detail. We've been focusing on other parts of late, but we should soon be doing more with them.

jrwells>> We both agree that some more rib definition might be in order, the torso has received the most amount of refining up to this point. My cohort here just recently finished a pass on the shoulder area, which we both feel is looking pretty strong at this point.

mehdianim>> We still have a good amount of work to do with the legs. I just finished a pass on the toes but the feet and calves need a lot of attention still. We'll post some more shots after we've made a bit more progress in that area.

cybernaut>> Thanks for the critique. Very helpful information. I had just mentioned the corner of the mouth looked a bit pinched before you posted. We're not sure what to think about the "face size" exactly, we're both a bit confused. It may have something to do with some of those renders being taken in a perspective camera, and some taken from orthographic viewports. Not sure though.

We will also take another look at the nostrils once we're back to the head to do work with the ears.

The lower legs are getting an overhaul as I speak here, so we'll be sure to post some updated pics in the near future.

Thanks again for the info,


08 August 2003, 07:03 PM
i wanna say that her head and neck "feel" too wide. At least from the front image. Maybe its just me. Maybe my head is just too narrow.

08 August 2003, 12:39 AM
uno>> If you're talking about the full body front pic... then it may be due to the perspective camera used for that render. Does it look noticably different to between that pic and the frontal shot of the top half?

This is the body style we are shooting for. We'd love to find more reference of this particular model, but we haven't been able to as of yet.

More to come shortly.


08 August 2003, 01:27 AM
Some changes that were made today. Hopefully they are moving in the right direction.

08 August 2003, 02:32 AM
Nice improvements, she's looking really wafe-ish now. Lower leg is still not quite there yet. Maybe the knee needs to be lowered a bit?... maybe!.

The face size thing was probably wrong. It must have just been the render. Forget I mentioned it.

Interesting proportion tip, generally a persons reach from finger tip to finger tip with outstretched arms equals there height almost exactly.

Looking awesome, keep 'em coming :)

08 August 2003, 11:22 AM
I'm a little confused about the 'clean geometry' remark...

As a complete beginner, I'm trying to avoid tris, especially in the animated areas, yet this model is littered with tris around the head, especially around the eyes and mouth and in the creases of the nose. There is a row of five seperate triangle polys just on the upper cheek/ inner eye area: won't that cause problems?

There is a nose loop which just terminates on the brow and creates a 5 sided/quad/tri sequence just where you want to be able to do eyebrow raising. Will that deform predictably?

It also looks to me as if the eyeloops are spiralling into the eye, and there seems to be a lot of subdivision happening without a clear result... for e.g. on the cheek (the dimple area) theres a quad which has been divided (I think of it as a 'Y' divide, but I think its called a loop anchor) that splits the loop coming in from the neck but then just seems to stop in a 5 sided point. Won't that pinch?

I'm not being a smartass, I'm genuinely asking as it seems to fly in the face of everything I've picked up, yet you guys are pros and it's being called 'clean geometry'.

Enlighten me please :)


08 August 2003, 08:38 PM
Things are coming along very nicely, but I'm concerned about her shin/calf. I think you have it way too long. Are you going by the reference photos you posted? Because that woman's wearing heels, her ankle is far above her foot. It looks as if you are giving her the same length calf without taking into account that her heel is 5 inches in the air. That might be while it feels like her lower leg is stretched. Pull that ankle up a couple inches and see what it looks like...

I think the face is a bit too tall still. Either that or the chin area needs some tlc, maybe the chin is too wide? I think you've make the lips a little too padded, especially the top lip.

The neck, although better, still looks to thick. Maybe more definition in the front of the neck, the tendons and stuff, would help.

Oh, and if you're going to be working on the ears anyway, they look a bit too fleshy on the outer tip. Maybe the final lip of the ear flap (whatever it's called) could be thinner?


08 August 2003, 11:58 PM

Just a few minor details at the ears and the base of neck. This might help... The ears should be divided into three equal sections of 1/3 in size. The outer rim or helix of your ears seems a bit too thick and too long. The top 1/3 should end at the bowl where it curves inward. The second 1/3 is the tragus or the covering of the ear hole. Your targus is not quite visible form this view. It is either too small or needs to be reposition. The last section is the lobe. Yours too high and too thick.

The clavicle bones is too wide apart. This is where the sternomastoid muscles (Two muscles that runs into the pit of the neck) connects to the collar bones.

Also you might want to recheck the top of the nose area near the eye sockets and the frontalis muscles.

Over all, nicccee!

cheers!:beer: :thumbsup:

08 August 2003, 12:19 AM
Originally posted by davidSingha

cheers!:beer: :beer:

Quick sugestion: read the rules of these forums. Only contructive critcism and the like allowed.

08 August 2003, 12:23 PM
Nice looking model. Seems to get better and better :-) 2 things that I noticed about this that i think could use a little bit of improbevement.

1. Ears - the Main ear canal seems to be squared off and like it is going strait from the canal to the back part of the ear. Perhaps pull the canal down a touch towards the ear lobe and I think you will get better results. Also the thickness of the outer part of the ear seems to be to thik for this as well.

2. The breast look really good, however I think this might look a bit better if you pull out the outer ring of the Nipple to define it just a bit better. If you look at the side of the breast going into the underarm you have a slightly squigly line.

Other than that this awesome! keep up the good work and look forwared to more updates!:buttrock:

Quick sugestion: read the rules of these forums. Only contructive critcism and the like allowed.

Hellwolve - Perhaps you should take your own advice here as nothing in your post is remotely close to any type of criticizm towards this post.

Limit smilies to either smiles or winks wherever possible

Any fanboy, one-liner comments as stated above WILL be deleted.

I wouldn't say what davidSingha was saying here did not follow these rules as he pointed out several things where he thought this model could use improvements.

08 August 2003, 04:49 PM
First off, thanks to all of you who have provided us for much needed information. It doesn't matter if you're right on or entirely wrong... the point is, you noticed it for some reason.

cybernaut>> Wafe-ish. Yea, that's a good word for it maybe. We spent some time tightening her up some, defining her bellybutton area and her lower ab pouch, as well as the ribs... and the legs are undergoing some major changes as I speak right now as well.

Someone else brought up the face height later on as well... we haven't touched it yet but it should be something for everyone to continue looking at and scrutinizing in the future.

I did lengthen the distance from the shoulder to the elbow to increase her wingspan a bit, as well as dropping her armpits ever so slightly to make her shoulders a tiny bit thicker... but we still after looking at much source material, that the wingspan for certain supermodels is far short of their height. Another subject that I'd love to discuss further with more people. Thanks for bringing that up.

RichardB>> You raise very good points about the clenliness of the geometry. What we are currently after is "anatomically stable geometry" as oppose to "clean geometry". We have wound up cutting across much of our "clean geometry" in an effort to get our edges to flow more correctly with the natural forms of our surfaces... and at this point are still very concerned with achieving this.

Some program's smoothing alogeritms have trouble figuring out what to do with 5sided faces... but we've found that Max actually does pretty well with them... and to be honest, we have much bigger fish to fry right now than cleaning up geometry that might not need to be cleaned up anyway. Any faces that don't behave under 1 or 2 iterations of smoothing are addressed and recut.

If you're building a mesh that is intended to be animated in motion, then you need be more concerned with "clenliness issues", but that is not our plan with this particular model. Also, the heavier the character's range of motion, the more you need be concerned with those rules.

jellyfish>> Her leg length has been the subject of much discussion between us. We didn't use that particular picture to figure out her leg length, but we have noticed that certain supermodels such as Gisele have proportions that are far from "normal". I would agree with you that it may be a bit long, but I'm confident that after the next couple image posts... we'll all come to an agreement on the perfect length.

We've been talking about the neck a bit also, and it seems that the upper part where it connects to the head might be the part that could be made a bit more narrow. Would you agree? That's a hard one to determine however.

davidSingha>> I'm currently in the process of a full ear overhaul, so I'm not gonna comment on the ear shown above... because I've started it over from scratch. I will take into account your suggestions though, before I post a new ear.

We also agree with you about the clavicle being a bit wide in the pit... we took that in just a bit, hopefully it's enough.

If you don't mind, we'd like you to elaborate a little further about what might need to be tweaked in regards to the top of the nose area. Maybe an image pointing out exactly what you mean here might be in order? Anyway, thanks for your information... please stay in the loop.

colmite>> I'm not gonna get into the ear thing yet, because I'm currently giving the ears a full overhaul. That ear was never intended to be final, just merely a placeholder. Hopefully I can get the new ear posted within the next day or so.

I was playing with the definition of the outside area of the nipple a while back, but they were starting to look too much like big defined silver dollars, so I toned it back a bit. We'll take another look at the geometry and see what we can do.

I'm also not seeing the squigly line that you're mentioning... if you wouldn't mind pointing that out a bit further that would be great.

Thanks again for the info all, more pictures very soon.


08 August 2003, 05:05 PM
She's Ana Hickmann, brazilian model. Guinness book of records say she's the model with the longest legs nowadays...

Google Image search will help you or

Amazing model!

Hope that helps:buttrock:

08 August 2003, 05:07 PM
Ya know, thats funny you should mention Ana Hickman... I was just looking at pictures of her last night when trying to find out who our girl in that pic posted above is.

Thanks for the info :eek:

08 August 2003, 08:19 PM
RE her neck, Actually I think it's just below the intersection of head and neck (from front view) that needs to be narrower. Specificallty, I'm looking at the point where the vertical line at the side of the neck breaks to angle into the skull protrusion at the back of the ear. Of course, you have to account for that funky muscle there at the side of the neck, but if you are narrowing her clavicle notch like you said, then these muscles will angle together more (which I think will improve the look of the neck) and there will be more leeway to narrow that part of the neck without disrupting the muscle connection up there.

RE the legs, it's really hard to be sure about that from just the front view -- can you post a front and rear 3/4 view once you get done with the latest tweaks? It could just be that I'm reading too much into that shin, and it's just the angle that's unnatural (orthographic). Having a view of the ankle area would help.

Let us know when you want to discuss the face some more, I have suggestions. :)

PS: to colmite, he edited the post after hellwolve's reprimand to include some c&c. it was originally just the compliment and smilies.


08 August 2003, 03:03 AM
Great back and shoulders. She doesn't seem to have any ankles though. And by the reference photos (and skinny models in general), the crest of the ilium tends to be a tad more prominent than you currently have. Very nice work. Looking forward to seeing more.

08 August 2003, 04:59 AM
the of the model is Ana Hickman...
I'm sure you can find more photos from her in google...

08 August 2003, 06:20 AM
I just did a quick search for this Ana person that was mentioned and she definitely seem to be an ideal reference model for the type of anatomical structure your attempting to achieve.

It's funny, even having the worlds longest legs she still looks proportionally accurate in "most" of the pictures. I think I'm going to have to agree with Jellyfish in that her toe position is accuate if her heals were 5 or so inches up off the ground. That was probably what was bugging me the first time I saw her legs. Thats not to say that she needs shoes or clothes or anything, a birthday suit is perfectly fine with me. :)

I would love to see close ups of the hands and feet when you get them done to some degree, wires included plz. I'm always interested to see how people tackle that very challenging task, especially when their going for high realism.

This site looks promising for Ana reference material.

Good luck, eagerly awaiting an update!!!

08 August 2003, 05:38 AM
Hey you guys... here's our next installment for you to look at and give feedback on. If you see anything that you don't feel looks as good as a previous iteration, please tell us.

Here are some major points that AK and I worked on this time around:

-- completely rebuilt ear, started with Bay Raitt's tutorial as a quick way to get some solid geometry in place, then worked off photo reference of my wifey's ear to do the rest. the back of the ear is still early and not worth showing.

-- head changes; forehead shorter, eyes shifted down, nose reshaped, brow and frontalis tweaked (davidSingha), chin tweaked, jaw line tweaked, top of neck narrower (jellyfish)

-- torso changes; clavicle pit tweaked (davidSingha), armpit brought down, hip bones down and accentuated (tredeger), arms longer (cybernaut)

-- leg changes; shin shorter (cybernaut), muscles recut, shin forward, back of feet recut, back of knee recut

Hope you all enjoy... thanks again. We'll be back with more soon. Feet, hands, forearms, and the rest of the ear will probably be our next key targets.


Max's symetry modifier is playing games with the seam on the back... try and look past it until our model is fused together.

08 August 2003, 05:41 AM

08 August 2003, 07:06 AM
I think the 2nd ideration for the hips was the best. In the 3rd it looks like you thought she was still to fat and shaved her hip bones (This happens in the industry!). I thought they looked fine then. As for her head... it is now less tall, why did you make her jaw bone less angular? Who said she had to have a soft jaw? Unless that is what you are heading for. Her head doesn't sit high enough. She has a slim tall body but has a short neck?!? Needs to be much longer. I think her lips look nice. her eyebrow ridge is low compared to photo.

08 August 2003, 08:45 PM
Looking Excellent!!!! :)

She's getting so close to perfect it hard to find anything to crit. The best I can do is nit pick tiny details. So without further ado let the nitting and picking begin.

I would have to say that the torso is pretty much flawless. All proportions and anatomical details are as they should be. The hips are more of a judgment call. As I to like the 2nd Iteration as opposed to the 3rd, the 3rd is realistic for an anorexic models hips... void of any fat!. Quick question, are you trying to make her sexy or just "model" skinny?, because not all supermodels have what could be considered appealing physiques.

The legs now look like they are proportional to her body, more or less. As you stated, not all models have legs perfectly proportional to their bodies, so some artistic license is acceptable. It would be nice to see a side shot of her body as judging anatomical proportions is easier when you can see the model from a variety of angles. PLZ

The length of her arms does look better and is fairly accurate for her torso length. If you were going to lengthen her arms a little more you would need to stretch her torso up slightly to compensate, which you could do if you wanted to. Visually something still looks odd when I look at her arm and legs together, they don't quite match for some reason. It could be the length of her arm from her shoulder to her elbow. I've noticed on allot of very tall women that that distance is or looks very long because of how slender they are. I imagine that is the effect that you are trying to achieve.

I have a couple suggestions for her face:

Eyes - The tear ducts seems a bit small which gives the impression that the eyes are far apart. Usually eyes are "roughly" one eyes distance between each other and the tear ducts are included in that measurement. You can probably leave the general eye location where it is and simply work on the surrounding tissue to fix that. I also noticed that the brow line comes almost the the dead center of the head creating a kind of unibrow effect, this was observed from the front shot. A slight tweaking of that geometry would help create to a more natural ocular line.

Nose - A tricky thing to model noses. Her nose looks good but not quite realistic, especially from the front. All I can suggest is keep working it. I could say things like the nostril shape is too open the nostrils flare out a bit much but just work on it a little more using many reference images is what I would say is best right now.

Mouth - The mouth looks great from the side, but from the front you could do a couple of things to improve it appearance. The contour of the upper lip looks a bit odd to me. The best description is that it seems a bit harsh. I don't get a sense that these are woman's supple lips we're looking at; and super models can have supple lips despite their boney bodies. The corner of the lips could be massages a bit as well. The way the contour of the upper lip curves into the mouth's corner crease is not quite right. Again, just keep refining what you have there using close-up images of mouths for reference.

Ears - The ears now have a great ear shape to them; however, some of the edges look too sharp like they've been pinched, particularly in the inner ear parts, the outer ear is fine.

Well, I guess that was a little more that nit picking... but it's all good :).

Hope it helps and looking forward to seeing the hand and feet (rubbing his hands together devilishly)



08 August 2003, 01:38 AM
You guys are making bomber progress. I think the best thing I can say about the model at this point is that you've pretty much reached the point where everything else is a judgement call. Which is to say, rather than anything being wrong, any substantive changes will just be within the realm of anatomical variance and a point of aesthetic preference. Bravo.

I like most of iteration 3 but I think the glutes were better in the first two. I think that the new head is farther from the standard proportions and closer to the scientifically aesthetic ideal. Studies have demonstrated that males prefer the faces with diminutive features-- the smaller chin, more childlike features, etc. And the new head reaches more toward that freakishly perfect beauty.

As far as the skinniness is concerned--just how much are you trying for perceptual perfection vs. real world accuracy? When I lived in NYC, I used to work out at a gym where a ton of models and a fair share of super models (sports illustrated, victoria's secret) were patrons. I learned a couple of things about the real thing there--first, despite the fact that people don't think these girls really look like that in real life, a lot of them really do--even in the middle of a workout. Just stunning. But a lot of them are really strangely shaped as well--just odd parts here and there. And finally, I noticed that many of them were quite soft in the flesh. Tall and skinny to be sure, but with very little muscle tone. It was explained to me by a particularly candid model who had to give up a passion for rock climbing that too much muscle tone (to a degree not even close to "buff") was unacceptable for certain kinds of work. In person, I thought she had a pretty normal set of glutes, which sagged in an average sort of way. But this was never ever noticable in the V.S. catalog photos of her. From what I understand, the muscle tone limit applies mostly to limbs, your abs can never be too flat. Hope this helps.

08 August 2003, 02:01 AM
hey, very nice work i like it. I feel her ear a bit too big too.

08 August 2003, 05:27 AM
Thanks for the suggestions you guys, you've been very helpful.

Cybernaut>> Here's some side views of iteration #4 for you and others to take a look at.

I've been working mainly on the head since last iteration, and AK's been working on refining some of the body parts that were talked about in iteration 3.

Not gonna post a full set of renders from the different camera angles... but the main changes here would be the head, and the knee. We've been reworking some of the facial features quite extensively over the last couple days, and we also put an older and better iteration of the knee back on. It will be more apparent in our next posts.

I'm not gonna post a closeup of the head yet because there are still some known issues I'd like to work out before releasing it to the hounds.


08 August 2003, 01:13 AM
Thanks for the side view posts, it definitely gives me a better look at what you've created. Very Nice work indeed!!!!!!!

Got some more C&C's (mostly minor things)

I noticed that she has a pretty small behind, it is realistic butt size but I think you could increase her appeal with a bit more flesh. I'm not talking an extreme increase like a L-Jo rump, but something that's a little less boney? Particularly at the top of the butt... more toned!?. It kind of looks like it's sagging a bit, only a bit :). The smallish size might also be influenced by how thick the thighs seem to be from her profile in comparison. Just a thought (and probably just a preference).

I also saw something that may be a bit off anatomically with the legs from that profile shot. The upper thigh seems to go forward at a slight angle where as the shin goes back at an angle. This is something that I have looked extensively when I use photos for reference. In the images of people standing completely straight I can see that there is a very noticeable angle going from the hip down to the ankle. What it looks like here is that her knee is bent slightly, is it slightly bent?. You wouldn't need to adjust it much, A couple shear tool actions could fix that. Usually the thigh angles back but the shin goes almost vertical in a typical standing pose. Stand up and look at your own legs and you'll see what I mean, I just did.

I was going to mention that her feet look a little too thick but you probably still working on that part so I won't go into it any further.

Where are those hands and feet, my axe is all sharp and ready to go ;)


08 August 2003, 06:21 AM
Originally posted by tredeger
In person, I thought she had a pretty normal set of glutes, which sagged in an average sort of way.

Sorry, tredeger, but couldn't help noticing the rather elegant way you put it. Good choice of words :D

The model really improved, Doubt: congratulations!

08 August 2003, 04:12 PM
It's really coming along I love it, great work :) :applause:

08 August 2003, 09:28 PM
I truly think that your model is starting to really capture the subtle shapes that is the perplexing female. Also i believe that you have a better model than....dare i say it???....yes i dare......the female model in the Animatrix!!

Rock on!!

08 August 2003, 09:37 PM
Just noticed: did anyone mention that the hips look kinda too edgy from the back (last image, rightmost figure)?

Or maybe she didn't get her sandwich that day;)

08 August 2003, 03:37 PM
Thanks again for the comments,

cyber>> About the butt, I see your point... but we're not ready to make a move on it just yet. The comment made earlier about supermodels having little muscletone has stuck with us... and seems to be quite accurate on average.

As for the angles of the thigh and shin, you are correct, thanks for pointing that out. We may opt, however, to rig her to a slightly bent pair of leg bones, if it will give us better deformation in the knee. That is a bridge we'll have to cross in the coming weeks.

AK and I have been focusing on the head quite a bit, although I did start getting into the hand a bit. Yay. I don't have a hand render ready just yet... but how about a finger wire? :hmm:

Thanks again for the critiques... hopefully a full hand will be ready to show soon.

uno>> Better than the Animatrix model? While we appreciate the comment, I think I'm gonna have to give the nod to Cortina and the Square guys at this point... although maybe I'll think differently soon. Couldn't ask for a better compliment than that though, thanks.

If you haven't seen it, it's up at in the Animatrix section.

trthing>> Any chance you could elaborate a bit more about what you see and what maybe we should change?

Here is a 5th iteration head for you all to look at. AK spent some time friday rebuilding the eye socket... still a lot of refining to do though. You'll notice some hard edges that we haven't had a chance to touch up just yet. I was taking care of most of the nose and ear stuff for this iteration.

I decided to show progress from the 3rd to the 5th because the 4th was kinda interim for where we were going with it.


08 August 2003, 04:58 PM
I like the changes you made to the head.

The mouth is looking pretty much done. I don't have much to say about that feature except that you could, if you wanted to, slightly alter the line of the upper lip, it still doesn't look stereotypically "sexy"? enough. Just an opinion :)

The nose is looking pretty sweet as far as I can see. You made some great changes to it and there's nothing off with it at all.

The eyes are definitely looking more relaxed. It could just be the camera angle but the tissue of the lids seems quite thin still, possibly flesh it out some more?!. An interesting choice to have the eye closed a little. One thing I noticed is that the curve of the upper lid look like a perfect arch. I suppose an eye could do that but usually eye lids aren't such a uniform shape unless there Asian eyes. Likewise the lower lid have an odd horizontal "S" curve happening, that can easily be fixed with a slight tweaking. ( Boy am I grasping at straws here!!!)

That's a very impressive finger, especially with all those knuckle wrinkles. I never thought of going that detailed myself, I was always concerned about animating such complex geometry. How are you guy going to animate the finger? smart skinning or something else?

I did noticed something with the finger nail that could be massaged a bit. From the angle that you've posted the nail looks a little flat. With most finger nails the line of the nail usually dips down and out from the quick and up to the tip. If your as confused as I am about what I just wrote I did a quick sketch to illustrate what I talking about.

Looking awesome!!!!!!

08 August 2003, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by Doubt
Thanks again for the comments,

trthing>> Any chance you could elaborate a bit more about what you see and what maybe we should change?


Sure, the area I was talking about is highlighted on the attached pic.

It still seems that it could use a little bit of smoothing there.

I am being picky here, ya know...

Great improvements as usual!!

08 August 2003, 02:32 PM
I dont think that you should take that hip bone part in too much. To me its more of a personal choice. I think what they are trying to imply with this bony protrusion is what is going on in the image of the runway model's (who is amazing by the way) hips. They might have gone a little too far but i think that its more a call on their part. Overall, she is looking better and better. You guys should start giving yourselves a cutoff time lest you pick the crap out of it!!

08 August 2003, 04:28 AM
Another update for y'all...

I've been pretty much all hand since last time I posted... AK's been jumping around doing lots of different things... mainly the head changes and lower legs since last time.

Trthing, Uno >> We did decide to take the hipbone in a bit, although much of the butt has been reworked in an effort to make it, shall I say... hotter. :applause:

Cyber, your tip about the fingernail came in handy, thanks for spotting that early because I would have had to rework all the fingers since I used the first one to make the rest.

This is the first pass at the completed hand... it is certainly open for critique although AK and I still haven't had the chance to give it the full look over just yet. Some of my cuts may seem a little bit odd, and they probably are. Feel free to point them out... the next wire I post of it will probably have some edges cut in different directions... we'll have to see.

I tend to go pretty heavy on geometry, probably heavier than even necessary... I think it's just a level of comfort and technique when trying to achieve a certain level of detail. I think the same amount of detail could probably be achieved with less edges and more strategicly placed overlapping edges.

For animation purposes Cyber... I'd probably do morphs for the bent positions of the fingers... and link the morphs to the finger bone rotations. This way, one could achieve good overlapping wrinkles in one position, and stretched, smoothed out skin in another.

Anyway, here's our current chicky... enjoy.


08 August 2003, 04:29 AM

08 August 2003, 06:24 AM
Woooooh!!! them some nice hands you got there. :cool:

The poly density is fairly high for a hand, but if you comfortable with that level of geometry then, well, you got more balls than I do. I usually try to make an 8 sided poly work, thats kind of the bare minimum for a descent finger I think. There's not much that I can see that's off with the hand anatomy. You even managed to get that thumb to attach to the hand in the right orientation, that part seemed to take me for ever. On the thumb, I did notice from the top shade view that the thumb pad is a bit large for a female. A woman's thumb tends to be more linear and less bulgy than a mans, generally speaking of course.

The body is looking as amazing as ever. One thing that I spotted form you new post is that the front edge on the shin seems to be quite sharp, but it could just be the angle and lighting.

Nothing else really to say except watch those Tri's!!!.

Keep 'em coming :) :) :)

08 August 2003, 03:01 PM
Really nice mesh you have there, the only thing that I can see at this point is a little bit to much "fat" in the crotch area..
I have done a little photoshop on your image to show what I mean...


08 August 2003, 05:31 PM
Hotter she got!!!:drool:


But did notice the tris: r you worried about them?

09 September 2003, 06:45 AM
winberg has a valid point. Her groin area is a bit wide and i feel that his is more true to reality. Nice call!!!

As far as my own comments go, i wanna say that the wrists feel too thick for a female of this build. Further, i think that her forearm looks a titch too long. Could be me maybe i need to refer back to the runway model reference image.

Elbows are being addressed i assume. I would be interested to see the bone structure detail in the elbow that the knees and overall model has.

Neck - seems to me (could be lighting) that the sternomastoid (no spellcheck) muscles are concave versus convex. That or they seem planar as opposed to cylindrical.

Toes feel too thick in the main shaft portion - seem same thickness as pad\tip.

Hands are looking good, though the fingers themselves are too "triangular" for a lack of a better term. I see that you are trying to imply the recession of thickness as they attach to the hand. I just feel that they should do this in a more subtle manner. Also wouldnt mind seeing more bone and sinew shape definition that you have captured in the knee. Hands are mostly bone, tendon and fat mind you.

Once again you and AK are doing great. You asked for more critiques and there you go!!!

09 September 2003, 03:32 AM
First off, sorry it's been so long since the last post... a number of things have kept us busy both in and outside of work.

A lot has been touched on since last post, the head has been worked on quite extensively since last post, and AK has been busy playing with the feet for a little while now...

We came to the conclusion that for doing truely realistic eyelashes... there is no substitute for geometry. I'll briefly explain the technique I used in Max in case anyone is interested.

First off, I created a single lash which is basically a 3 sided (triangluar shaped) bent cylindar that tapers to a point. In our case, a single lash contains 27 triangles.

Then I used this base lash to contruct a morpher with about 8 to 10 different morph targets... some for bending, some for straightening... some for curving this way and that way... you get the idea.

I used Max's spacing tool to place this "morpher lash" along a spline both above and below the eye. From there it was just playing with sliders for a few days :)

I decided to use morpher to modify and randomize the lashes because I found it to be much quicker to play with sliders then to grab verts and move them where I wanted. I posted a wireframe of the eyelash geometry below if you're interested. If this process doesn't make sense, I'll explain further... but for now I'm moving on. :hmm:

Right now, AK and I are ino the unwrapping and preliminary texturing phase... so we'll put something texture oriented up once we have something worthy.

Thanks for all the critiques so far, every constructive comment is heavily weighed and of value to us.


09 September 2003, 03:33 AM

09 September 2003, 03:41 PM
Well, what can I say: it is getting harder and harder to nit pick these days ;)

I like the approach to the eyelashes: you probably avoided a load of collateral issues with the other "solutions". Simple and effective:applause:

Only thing that draws my attention negatively is the seam in the back of the head and neck but that is probably due to the WIP, right?

Can't wait to see her textured, moving and jiggling ;)

09 September 2003, 06:08 PM
I agree, you guys don't make it easy for us nit pickers to find anything to criticize. I guess that's a good thing. :)

Those are some sweet eye lashes you have there. That's an interesting method to creating them. I've never used Max so I can't entirely follow what your saying verbatim, but I get the idea. I was actually able to get pretty decent lashes using Sas.Lite and guides but your result is definitely better (mumbling and grumbling).

Not much too say about the head, everything seems to be pretty much spot on.

As for the body, it looks almost perfect. She definitely has some of the longest legs in the world. You really solved that calf issue well, despite their extreme length they still look natural.

I think I can make some comments on the toes. The pad of the middle three toes, in particular, look a bit thick... or are too fleshy. The big toe as well may be too thick making it appear slightly swollen. The nails look very obviously smooth-shifted. I am working on a tutorial on how to make a realistic toe nail and have posted a WIP of it here. It can be use for all fingers and toes. Hope it's useful.

Looking foreward to the texured version:drool:

09 September 2003, 03:36 AM
Nice take on the eyelashes there-- I used the Snapshot tool to make mine, and then used soft selection and Noise to randomize them. My tutorial on the Snapshot method is here (http:/ fairly basic but works.

I'm seeing a couple problems with the shape of her... not real big ones, but enough to kinda make me twitch. Her knees have some issues, but it's hard to say just what-- I think the problem may be that the knee seems set too high in relation to the leg below it. The widening of calf and shin and so forth doesn't begin near enough to the joint.

The other problem is her breasts-- the crease line beneath them is too sharp, and climbs too high up the sides of them. It's good that some effort has been made to give them weight, but I think it's a little too much-- it's like something's pressing them down and against her ribcage. She looks like she'd have quite a shoulder and backache after a while. If that makes any sense.

Also, I think the points of her hibbones, where they come forward at the top of her thighs, is a little too low and not far enough out to the sides. There is usually a hollow place near there-- you know, that spot that's ticklish like all hells if you get poked there.

Keep on truckin! It'll be fun to see how this one turns out!

09 September 2003, 03:33 AM
trthing >> Yea, Max doesn't render it's halves w/ symetry as if the verts were welded it doesn't seem... so until the halves are merged, that center seam will remain visible. Once the UV's are setup and good, we'll merge the halves and start in on the weighting. I'm interested to see just how sweet or salty Max 6's symetry weighting will be for situations like this.

cyber >> I couldn't seem to get into your tutorial pages... do I need to register or something? In regards to the toenails, are you speaking of the many flat planes that make up the subtle curve of the nail? Is that what you meant by smooth-shifted?

Cranium >> Thanks for the critique... when I get a moment, I'll check for that snapshot method you spoke of. I'm not saying that the method I chose was speedy by any means, but it seemed to be faster than manually moving verts all over the place. ;)

Your point about the knees... would bringing the calf mass upward a bit help aleviate that problem? Does it appear that the main calf mass doesn't seem to come up enough to the knee when looking at the front view? or does it?

About the hipbone protrusions, I would agree possibly about moving them upward a bit, but I'm not sold yet on outward also... we'll play around with it a bit and see if we can come to at better conclusion about it.

The area where the breasts fold over has proven to be quite tricky... it may be do to our light rig we setup for modeling purposes. I would have to agree with you though, we'll look into pulling back on the fold a bit before next post.

Next post will likely have some face texture tests, that's where we would like to put the bulk of our time for a while now, although we are still up for making modeling changes based on issues people bring up, and we still have a small list of things, mainly regarding hands and feet to address w/ the geometry.


09 September 2003, 07:16 AM
Originally posted by Doubt
Cranium >> Thanks for the critique... when I get a moment, I'll check for that snapshot method you spoke of. I'm not saying that the method I chose was speedy by any means, but it seemed to be faster than manually moving verts all over the place. ;)
Your method might be a lot better, I don't know enough about how you did it to say which was easier... oh, and I've fixed the link I was trying to put up to my tutotial in my last message.

Your point about the knees... would bringing the calf mass upward a bit help aleviate that problem? Does it appear that the main calf mass doesn't seem to come up enough to the knee when looking at the front view?
Yep, that's kinda what I mean. The distance between the knee joint and the place where the leg starts to get wider (from the front view) needs to be a little shorter.

The area where the breasts fold over has proven to be quite tricky... it may be do to our light rig we setup for modeling purposes. I would have to agree with you though, we'll look into pulling back on the fold a bit before next post.
The skin in that area does NOT fold over much unless the woman in question has a very big chest, or a flabby one (which changes according to age). On a D cup, there's just the slightest actual crease under the very lower edge, and even then not much-- everywhere else it's a more gradual slope. If that helps any. Of course, it's not as if reference images are hard to find, heh.

All in all you only have subtle tweaking left to do on the body, it's really looking nifty.

Are there wires of the body we could see?

09 September 2003, 04:49 AM
Cranium >> Thanks for the info, we will make the necessary adjustments that have been talked about as soon as we get back to the body, but for the time being, we are focused on texturing, materials and uv layout.

Are you interested in seeing any specific wires, or just updated versions? We've posted a few different pics of our polygon cage on the previous pages... we'll post something specific if you're interested though.


This shot is a preliminary pass at the face textures, done w/ max's standard renderer. For the skin, you're currently seeing diffuse, bump, and specularity only. The eye has an additional luminosity map for the iris... as well as a separate object for the cornea.

Comments are certainly welcome for this shot, but understand that it is still in quite an early stage. The eyebrows should clue you in ;)


09 September 2003, 01:37 PM
i'm feeling the eye color a bit too satured, and the specularity makes the skin looks to oilysh,

thats the only thing i can spot really :) great work

09 September 2003, 03:27 PM

I agree that the eye's are a little over saturated.

Love the spec and bump so far, particularily around the eyes, it makes it look alot like Pete Syomka's Ana model. BTW, How did you do you UVs, Max? LW? Could you post a shot of your UV, they've always terrified me ;)

keep 'em coming

p.s. check your private messages

09 September 2003, 04:42 PM
That was eye color #1 of a number of choices... AK's just playing around w/ some different eye colors and saturation levels now.

Funny you should mention Pete Syomka, I was looking at his up close eye render of his Ana model a lot while working on the eye lashes... I found his render to be possibly the best eye render available (although possibly a bit too wet looking in some places.)

Here's a plug for him for all you folks if you're unfamiliar w/ his work. He has been quite an inspiration for us.

I'll put up some UV unwraps tonight for you hopefully Cyber.


09 September 2003, 05:03 PM
needs more color!! needs more apparent color variation and maybe a titch more saturation in the appropriate areas. I need to see reference to see if i am correct but my gut says these things are true. Great start though.

By the by, what ethnicity is she? Maybe that would help clear things up.

09 September 2003, 05:15 PM
This is a little late. But those are some pretty hefty feet for such a frail girl. Also very flat. Where is the arch? Was gonna say ankles are too thick as well - but I think it is the foot.

Also butt is better - but too pointy. Look at the alsmost profile of your model. This one will work...

Looks great.

Just remembered - what happened to that polish guy that was doing the super high detailed woman? He had some nice feet (and everything else) going there.


09 September 2003, 09:25 PM
simply amazing
my pc couldnt handle all these polies:)
think it would crasht at 3 or 4th iteration:/

09 September 2003, 01:52 AM
Originally posted by Doubt
Are you interested in seeing any specific wires, or just updated versions? We've posted a few different pics of our polygon cage on the previous pages... we'll post something specific if you're interested though.

Updates are cool-- though I was rather puzzled by the layout specifically around the knees, the loops seem funky there and I can't see them well enough to tell what's goin on.

I am curious to know how you're using luminosity in the eyes-- is it overall, or mapped with falloff somehow?

As for her feet-- they look just fine to me. A person's foot is usually as long as their forearm from wrist to elbow... too often they're modeled half that size, people tend to forget how big feet really are.

09 September 2003, 01:58 AM
That's a really well made mesh. Looks like it will animate beautifully. I also must critisize the ears however. They are a bit on the funky side. Modelling ears is a pain in the <Honk!>

09 September 2003, 05:43 AM
uno >> a lot has changed already w/ the skintone... as we work our way through more areas and adjust things as necessary. Right now, we've been eyeing Adriana Lima's richer tone as a possible target, but are still working up to it. Here's a pic for all who are interested.

meanadam >> good catch on the heels. there is some work to be done there as the heel moves forward toward the arch. we will address these issues after a prelim texture pass is done on them.

Dennispls >> Yea, our computers are really starting to bog down now. Lately, I've pretty much left Photoshop to AK so I can have my entire CPU to do UV layout and test renders. We end up breaking off the hands and feet fairly often, just so we can spin around our model a little easier. :) Thanks for the comments.

Cranium >> The geometry in the knee area is certainly interesting, AK did a pass on it a while back trying to actually make the edges follow the muscle structure a little more closely... because we weren't getting the results we were after with more traditional edgeloops. As we do renders however, there are things we notice that will certainly need a bit of attention again... and this is one of those places.

As for the eyeball maps... I was talking to a good friend and fellow CG artist about the eyeballs, and he mentioned a tutorial which talked about the benefits of a luminosity map for the eyeballs. Here is our current one at a much smaller pixel size than what we are rendering. We're rendering w/ 1200x1200 eyeball textures. You can see that the only area that would be illuminating is the iris area.

I think the foot length is fine also, but we both feel the heel and arch area which meanadam mentioned could use a bit more attention.

Modron >> Thx for the compliments. We will be looking to pose and still render this model, we're not sure the extent that we're going to animate her w/ motion however. Any parts that don't pose well will be remodeled anyway.

If you wouldn't mind elaborating about the ears being funky though. I've worked to remove some hard edges in there, and today I sunk some of the interior portions further into the head. I'm not going to post an ear closeup today, but would you be able to supply any further critique as to how we should change the ear? Thanks.

cybernaut >> Here is the face unwrap section for you to take a look at. AK and I believe that the proper route to take is "more seams and less stretching". We have chosen to break her up into more maps than most folks might choose to use, in an effort to avoid texture stretching as much as humanly possible. Make sense at all or am I sounding crazy yet?


Today's update: Enjoy. (still Max scanline renderer)

Try and get past the seam down the middle, most noticably down by the crotch. She's still in two halves.


09 September 2003, 03:11 PM
wow doubt, thats looking really really awesome!
The skin tone makes a big difference.
Have you thought about hair yet? Im curious to see what you do with that...

I really like the detail in the eyeball luminosity map too.
can i ask how you made it?

09 September 2003, 11:05 PM
Thanks for posting the UV, that's definitely a unique way of handling texture maps for a head. Although, I'm still pretty freaked about the whole UV concept, it's the time it takes to set it up the darn things that drives me nuts.

The skin is coming along nicely. I'm sure that with an environment around her, hair, clothes and warmer lights she will look completely life-like.

Just a side note, one thing that just doesn't seem to hold with the realism of her body is her ears. From that last post, her ears don't look quite as natural as the rest of her for some reason, maybe its just the lighting...or me being a detail freak again.

Looking forward to an update!!!!!!!.

09 September 2003, 05:49 AM
Yes I agree on the ear thing. To me they look alittle big. Other then that its look excellent.

09 September 2003, 11:45 AM
I think the ears are a good size, they're just a bit too low.

09 September 2003, 09:34 PM
Getting little late here but some fresh view could
be good sometimes.
I have a problem with her tits from the beginning of a
creation. They are looking beautiful now with
those nice nipples and good texturing.
But something is turning my heterosexual mind off
a little (size is quite o.k.)
Is it a surface flow or weight or something third..
This is the very first region that eyes are going for
on the female body, aside the eyes and head in general.
I would like to see the texture maps, they are
working great.

09 September 2003, 09:38 PM
Getting little late here but some fresh view could
be good sometimes.
I have a problem with her breasts from the beginning of a
creation. They are looking beautiful now with
those nice nipples and good texturing.
But something is turning my heterosexual mind off
a little (size is quite o.k.)
Is it a surface flow or weight or something third..
This is the very first region that eyes are going for
on the female body, aside the eyes and head in general.

I would like to see the texture maps, they are
working great.

09 September 2003, 02:09 AM
kiri >> Hair... yea. We are thinking of doing a combination of particle and alpha-ed poly hair... with the intent of doing additional work in Photoshop for the specific rendered shot. Since our aim is to use this model for still photography... we are already planning on doing most of the hair work post-render.

cyber >> Yea, I'm usually upset to have to move into doing UV's, but AK and I have been remodeling this girl for so long, that I'm actually happy to be doing something different now. We found that breaking off just the face as it's own texture helped us avoid stretching... and since this particular seam will be hidden for the most part anyway, it's really not a big deal. There are actually quite a few texture seams visible in these last two renders, but they aren't noticable.

I did a bit more work with the ear today, but I'm getting the feeling that the casting shadows will play a big part in how the ear looks. I did scale them down a tiny bit today, as well as rework the upper inside section.

i-d >> If you can point out anything specifically that might need addressing... we'd love to take a further look at it.

In terms of the maps, there really isn't all that much to show. They are very flat and very hi-resolution. For the color map, it's pretty much a flat skintone everywhere w/ a blurred out noise layer that AK worked up on top of it. The face bump is a conglomoration of pores from different photographs as well as some handpainting. The spec maps are pretty much black with a couple dark grey brushstokes on top.

When our maps get to a presentable state, we will put them up, but a scaled down version at this point isn't going to look like much.

Here's a shot from the same angle but with some simple global illumination. I've kinda faked a bit of SSS with some faint luminosity and translucency falloff maps. It's far from perfect, but you can get the idea of what GI might look like. The previous shot used a rig of 7 lights, this shot uses just one spotlight and the environment skylight. The eyes also look a bit wacky rendering w/ vray at the moment.


09 September 2003, 03:33 PM
Doubt--> well it looks sweet! I think you should animate it though ;)

did you have any links to tutorials for the eyeball maps? coz they look really nice

09 September 2003, 07:33 PM
The ear still feels flat overall. I think that if you added a little more curvature to the structure (refer to AK’s ears or your own doubty boy). Also doesn’t have the depth that an ear has. Further the outer ridge doesn’t feel like a thinly curved ridge. Lobe may be too big. You need that internal structure which protrudes almost as far as the outer rim.

The Breast area may be falling apart where the breast meets the upper chest area. If you look you can see the shadows creating a “V”. This to me implies that these breasts are unnatural or breast implants. Typically you wont see this unless there is a bra to cause this minimal cleavage.

The Groin region is still not working for me. The area where the front thigh meets the internal hip is just not flowing like it should. They feel like separate structures still.

The Elbow doesn’t illustrate the subtle flow of the biceps muscle into the other muscles of the forearm. Now it look as in the elbow was pressed down by a rolling pin.

09 September 2003, 10:03 PM
very nice model guys...i think the ears are fine...I think once you get some darker shadows itll create more depth...that last render the shadows were very light

10 October 2003, 10:16 PM
Your model is amazing! Very inspiring. Keep up the great work!

01 January 2004, 04:40 AM
After a long break, we're back to our quest for realistic bliss. Sorry for the delay, AK and I have been busy finishing up our current work project, and there hadn't been much time to work on our girl.

Plug: Fight Night 2004 - Producer Interview - Dec. 19th (

The good news is, our time seems to be freeing up and we should be pressing forward here... hopefully at a more rapid pace. It appears we may have also picked up another part-time adventurer to help do some custom rigging in XSI. We'll be referencing that guy as "The Brink" in the future.

Lots of little things have changed from our last post, most noticably is the arm position which we've chosen for a better base deformation. Also, while I've been beefing up on my shader knowledge, AK has done quite a bit of cosmetic work on the limbs, as well as fixing up the legs in a more natural stance. The length of her legs is still open for debate.

Here are some shots of our latest mesh which include some of AK's undergarment work as well. Hopefully I'll have pics to post from shaderland within the next couple days.

For the critquers (is that a word?)... thanks for your patience.

01 January 2004, 04:45 PM
Looks pretty AMAZING :)


About the only thing I see that you could still work on is her lower legs. I noticed from that first 3/4 image that something looks a bit off with the structure/angle of her shins; however, the profile of her shin looks great!!. Keep in mind I'm grasping at straws with that crit.

Stahlberg has mange to deal this problem quite well, if you haven't already seen his latest female post yet.

One other thing you could think about is making her hands a bit smaller, maybe 10-15% smaller?, JAT.

Her outfit looks and fits her great, and it's nice to see that it's not 4 sizes too small like allot of 3D female model :).

Eagerly awaiting next post!!!

01 January 2004, 04:48 AM
As promised, here's the latest face shader that I've been working on. This image is rendered with mental ray via XSI, it's lit with a fairly dim HDRI environment (the beach one from if you're familiar) along with 2 area spot lights.

The lighting and rendering thing is pretty new to me, as is the XSI render tree... but I'm trying my bestest. Thanks to Bernard Lebel for the tip regarding the Final Gathering settings... that proved to be the most important factor for getting rid of the glowing nostrils.

I'm attempting to achieve an SSS type effect by using the Volume Effects shader, but the XSI documentation doesn't seem to have very much reference in regards it's thousand and one sliders and check boxes.

The eyeball shaders were built in similar fasion to the eyeball tutorial on

This particular shot is rendered in a single pass, the depth of field blurring and a bit of levels work were done afterward in photoshop. The maps still have a long way to and we are aware of this... but any comments regarding these shaders are greatly appreciated.

01 January 2004, 11:32 AM
once again, its very good work.
the thing i would say about the shaders and lighting is that it looks quite plasticky, and also quite hard-
a little like a manequin or statue

the texture on the skin also seems a little grainy to me.

but with a few adjustments i think it will look great!
keep up the good work!

01 January 2004, 02:29 PM
could i see a wire of her in under wear

01 January 2004, 06:55 PM
Kiri >> I'd certainly agree with you there. She seems very plasticy when I compare her to some other top quality face renders. Here is one from Rene Morel at that I think is just amazing. This is one that I look at often, in hopes that I someday reach the amount of realism that he is capable of. Next to his, ours seems quite laughable at the moment.

Lighting is certainly more harsh on our render.

I believe the grit is mostly coming from our bumpmap. I'm wondering if a different bumpmap setting is going to be necessary for this size render. It seems that the bumpmap settings are very dependent on the closeness to the object and the size of the render.

Would it be smart to back off on the spot lights and to just rely more on the HDRI you think?

Ziah>> We'll put up a wire w/ the undergarments for you but it will have to wait until monday when we get back to our work site.

01 January 2004, 10:39 PM
yeah im also tying to do a female she is still in the modeling stages doesn't equal to urs tkae a look if you want but something i was reading is that a young female uv is one of the hardess thinks to do especially say a super model being that when you look at your reference photos alot of things hidden with make- up ...making the face look smooth and when trying to simulate that ....looking at other peoples work they tend to have the spec map and spec it self to hi giving off a plasticy still new to alot of this but thats just my tkae on it

01 January 2004, 02:28 AM
Here's one from today... all diffuse light is coming from the HDRI environment in this one, instead of having the diffuse split between the env. and the spots.

There's also no volume effects in this particular shot, it wouldn't be able to calculate since I have the rest of the head clusters hidden. Also, I've been messing with the eliptical filtering settings for the bumpmap... it really wasn't liking such a high resolution bumpmap for such a small render like this.

Something weird happened with the eyes though, when I bumped my final gathering settings way up, I got some sort of weird, shadowy X-Files lookin' disease thing going on. Anyone know where that is coming from? The only other light in the scene is set to specular contribution only, with shadows turned on. I believe it's set to around .5 or .6 intensity.

When I pull back my final gathering settings for less accuracy, it ruins the nostrils but the eyes are ok. Go figure.

Besides the skin, there's a lot about this particular shot that sucks compared to the last one, but I think showing this one now might be able to help in the longrun. I'm not a big fan of the way the nose seems to render without any diffuse spotlights. The lack of shadows from them means that less geometry is defined.

Thanks in advance for any opinions or possible solutions.

01 January 2004, 03:22 AM
doubt, whats up with the length of the head?
in the 1st pic you posted it looks kinda long, and in the 2nd its a bit squashed, and in the latest one its real elongated again...
in anycase, i think the 2nd (squashed one) looks the best.

as for the skin, its looking a little more realistic (although i have to agree that its not very 'pretty', and kinda sickly looking). But mainly the thing which makes it not real for me is that it looks like a hard surface. skin should be more softer :)
but i think that is a very hard thing to achieve in 3d. almost all characters look 'hard' that i have seen...
anyway good luck!

01 January 2004, 05:28 AM
kiri >> I think it's the head length must be your perception. The first two pics on this page (the one alone, and the one next to Rene Morel's character) are the same jpeg.

As for the new pale image, I don't think the camera FOV is any different, it's a slightly larger render but that's hard to tell since the rest of her head isn't visible.

Yea, I'll agree with you on the sickly comment... I'm using an unmodified HDRI image shot in a forest (the on on debevec's site) for this pic and I think it's giving her a slightly greenish hue, not to mention her being extremely pale.

The main thing I'm trying to figure out is the optimal way of lighting her for an eventually posed headshot. In order to achieve the softness of natural outdoor light, I was trying to avoid using spots for diffuse lighting.

On thing's for sure, her skin might look more realistic in this latest one but overall she looks a lot less like a runway model.

01 January 2004, 01:51 PM
This stuff is looking great, an amazing ammount of progress. I'll be watching your progress.

01 January 2004, 05:43 PM
Modeling Comment: i think you need to revisit the ear and nostrils. If you use Morel's image (and i understand its a male v. female yet the point is still valid) as a comparative basis you can see the deeper grooves and ridges of the inner-ear structure. Also his nostrils feel more natural. For instance, the opening of the nostril is more irregular whereas the nostril opening on your model looks pretty much circular. Further, her nose seems as though it is upturned versus the male model. Yet the tip of the nose is slightly lower than the wings of the nostrils themselves. More nit-pick stuff: philtrum (vertical groove in upper lip) seems a bit wide at the bottom, doesnt seem natural.

I would be more than happy to provide reference to validate my argument that is unless i am alone in this opinion.

As far as the lighting goes, the most recent looks the most realistic. But it is also flattening out certain areas, namely your nostrils crease.

01 January 2004, 03:21 PM
wire of her in the bra? i agree with the retouch of the nostrils as well may be its just the view u took i don't know

01 January 2004, 05:46 AM
uno >> good points about the face... we'll be looking to iron out some of those ussues.

sorry for the delay, here's some wires w/ the underwear compliments of AK. please ask if you want to see something more specific--

01 January 2004, 07:17 AM
I have to say after following this thread that this is just amazing. Critiques really do help out!! Not that it was bad from the start, just liitle things mean so much to an artist. WOW is all I can say.

Are the clothes modeled seperate from the body? or extruded? Then if they are seperate, are they combined or parented? Just curious, I often have trouble with these issues...

Awesome work!!!!!

02 February 2004, 09:50 PM
It looks to me like the clothes are modeled seperatly.

I too have been following this thread...dont know if I posted in it yet. But I just had to say this is some amazing work and is ispiring me on a day to day basis to develop techniques this good.

To me the ears look alittle odd though. The lobes look alittle fat and too round. I dont know what else to say except this model looks perfect so far besides the ears. Keep up the good work.

02 February 2004, 07:36 AM
Thanks for the words of encouragement and sorry for not getting back to you guys sooner... this character would not be where it is without all of your eyes helping us see it correctly.

yes, the clothes were done by AK and were modeled out entirely separately, and shaped to fit our model in her smoothed form (1 iteration for viewport... usually 2 iterations of smoothing for rendering)

Before I go any further, for any of you trying to tinker with SSS, I need to tell you that I've been getting some pretty solid results using Mark Davies custom XSI shader (md_subScatter) as oppose to the standard volume effects node.

His tool renders very fast and is easy to implement. has a nice tutorial that can get pretty much any user from novice to advanced setup and doing SSS renders in no time. I had toyed with Brazil's wax material a few months back in 3DSMax, but I didn't find those settings as intuitive as what Mark's tool provides.

I'm ancious to show you all some new skin tests implementing it, but I've promised myself not to rush these ones out the door. I owe it to Mark and BigMuh for providing such a phenominal tool to us all.

Here is a link if you're interested in reading more about this. (;action=display;threadid=8937;start=0) It might require an account to get to that thread, not sure.

More to see shortly.

02 February 2004, 04:45 AM

here's our first shot incorporating SSS through md_subScatter, please feel free to comment and help out. i'd be more than happy to share my current rendertree setup if anyone found that necessary or important for getting better results. i'm not sure the skin feels quite like skin yet, but i think we're moving in the right direction.

this head geometry has some monor changes made by AK over the past couple days... the face is now smaller and narrower in relation to the head size, the nose shape changed, and the temples and sides of the head indent to form more of a cranium now.

the corners of the mouth had a bit of work done to them, and the ears got some attention as well.

although the skin may be moving in the right direction, i'm not happy with the way the nose or the brighter ear rendered. that ear doesn't look very natural, and the nose just looks kinda stupid. i think this has something to do with the way i'm lighting the character. if anyone has good suggestions on simple and effective lighting techniques or a headshot like this, please let me know.

Also, for any of you with experience lighting with HDRI environments... do you usually find that you need to do a lot of prepwork with the .hdr file before using it in your 3D package? 'm finding that the brighter areas of my HDRI environments seem to light less realisticly than the dimmer sides.

02 February 2004, 06:49 AM
good and bold cg is always displayed in the light bad is covered by ominus light and the scenes kept ver dark

K don't appreciated this image that much like the one before i thinks its the subsurface scattering

your nose now seems highly unsymetrical

But most of all i can see the point where your ears attach to you head i don't think this is really visible from this angle

you might want to check out the sticky body typology created by lunatique its located in the modeling forum)

for the skin maybe this will help with the effect your going for i found this tute that was really cool

its on the last page but this what i really wanted to show you the effect he got

Im still loving your work however keep on going

and ohh the stubble layer right under the eye browes is slighty to much

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