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05 May 2003, 06:18 PM
Man its quiet in here.

What can we do to get a little more action?

05 May 2003, 06:58 PM
pmG users are a specie in danger of extinction. :cry:

05 May 2003, 07:34 PM
>>What can we do to get a little more action?<<

How's abouts an "expressions" Q&A? I have a few questions I would like the expressions guru's to answer...

>>pmG users are a specie in danger of extinction.<<

nah...we's just gatherin our forces before we take over the world!!

:buttrock: :airguitar

05 May 2003, 05:34 PM
ok mG let we gather our forces to make an expressions Q&A.
but this will not protect us from the danger of extinction. :)

05 May 2003, 07:31 PM
So why aren't more people using Messiah for stuff? It seems like a really cool program and is being used by at least a few companies. I just wonder why others (especially Lightwave users) have yet to jump on the Messiah Animate bandwagon.

It seems everyone and their dog uses Maya. I recently finished an animated segment for a children's show that is in the works. Upon seeing the animation, the potential producers of the show were very excited by it and asked me what software I used. I told them Lightwave and Messiah. Their response, "Why don't you use Maya?" Errrgh.

I had a choice earlier this year to go with Lightwave and Messiah or go with Maya. I chose the Lightwave/Messiah route as I already was familiar with Lightwave. So far I've been able to do far more than I could have with Maya. Well, I probably could have done as much eventually, but I'm sure the learning curve with Maya would have been much steeper.

Anyway, hopefully more people find out about and use this program. It's capable of doing some really awesome stuff.


05 May 2003, 09:09 PM
You should flat out tell them that the Lightwave Messiah combo provides you with more power and a better renderer out of the box.

I'm pretty bloody sick of the Mind share Maya has over this industry. :-/

05 May 2003, 10:59 PM
i use Lightwave3D since it was called Videoscape3D from the software company Aegis.
now that messiah:studio is short before leaving the advance status (i hope) i would like to use it alone, instead of Lightwave (layout at least), together with a good modeling software.
messiah:studio is a fantastic piece of software and i can't understand why it isn't where it should be.
i mean why there is no more a big active community and more and fresh learning stuff?
pmG will be expanding soon so check back from time to time and see what the future will bring! i visit the pmG site every day and i don't see nothing that let me believe that pmG is expanding...

05 May 2003, 11:11 PM
>>messiah:studio is a fantastic piece of software and i can't understand why it isn't where it should be.<<

that's becuase there's no official release yet. I'm sure once studio is released, then you're gonna see a tidal wave of users.



05 May 2003, 11:32 PM
thanks for your optimism. :)

05 May 2003, 06:33 PM
I think it does have to do with the Studio release not taking place yet. Also there have been a lot of changes for Lightwave users in the past two years since there announcement. We have 7.5, ACS4, Keytrak and MOTION BUILDER 4 PLE. Also Maya dropped their price to 2K, Studio ist still priced at $1795 and not released. What does PMG expect!

A year ago I upgraded my 1.57 to Studio. I was using it for character animation, but now I am using Motion Builder 4.03. It is much easier to use Motion Builder because you don't have to seperate your mesh and F12 to Lightwave. Motion Builder uses LW weightmaps, multimesh and uses LW bones so you can do additional animation and expressions in LW on top of MB. MB has a great interface, Curve editor, Dope sheet, Poses, Visual expression system, Mocap click and play, it's faster than Messiah and has UNLIMITED UNDO'S. With the Kaydara $100 + $100 offer for a permanent license, it can't be beat right now.

05 May 2003, 07:14 PM
What happens in Motion Builder when you make geomoetry changes to your model? Do you have to re-paint your weights?

Is there any evidence to "it's faster than Messiah"? If so. . . how is that when you have to paint all your weights for each of your characters?

Animate is $595 and is a shipping product. No strings attatched.

Motion Builder appears to cost around $200 with a pretty big string. . .

"You cannot acquire and use this Personal Learning Edition for any work performed as an employee of a Corporation, as this would result in an illegal use of the Personal Learning Edition."

What does it cost for small "Corporation" like mine?

05 May 2003, 07:45 PM
Go easy, I am a PMG customer and user, I was just pointing out that it is a different world today for 3D users.

Anyway, Motion Builder does not require your final mesh or a mesh with weightmaps. The FBX plugin merges Motion Builder data into your Lightwave scene. The LW scene usually is just a character setup that can be updated and changed. The data that MB merges is bone and null translation, rotation and scaling data. All of your animation in Motion Builder is easily transferable to ANY Motion Builder characters. Oh, did I mention MB has animation layers and Motion Blending!

The mesh in MB is just for reference (or can be finalized for output in MB hence the support for weighmaps). Motion Builder features real time FK/IK. It's easily 24 to 30 FPS when you press the play button. Some people use it for real time Motion capture to video.

Your right about not being able to use MB PLE in a corporation, I have not seen that as an individual artist you can't use it commercially (the permanent version only). Also you get to purchase future upgrades for about $250 ea. lastly Kaydara is going to have some different versions of MB that have different feature sets, thus different price schedules. The only features I have heard that are not going to be in the permanent PLE are high end Mocap data cleaning features.

Lastly I spent about 4 weeks rigging an MS Animate character that has over 100 expressions so I know how technical MS is. It is great to have more choices for animation these days!

05 May 2003, 07:48 PM
Well you really peaked my interest and I just spent the last hour watching the tutorial videos demonstrating Motion Builder.

Some things were pretty sexy.

But most of it looked very un-animator friendly.

I loved the "Ghost" and "Keep" feature in the function curve editor.

And the quick access to the layers was nice.

But having to "key" changes. Oh man. . . that'd be a pain.

And having the "Character Controls" little picture thing. . . Eww.

Each to their own I suppose. I wasn't blown away but I can see how hobby users would rather fork out $100 over $500 for a box that has very similar feature lists. I just think production animators will always find Messiah geared towards the way they like to work.

05 May 2003, 08:23 PM
You don't have to use the character image to pick a control. You can resize the proxy's and pick them directly in the viewer. Pressing "T", "R" or "S" for your keying mode.

I agree with you about the "K" button, it should update if a keyframe already exists since you have mucho undo's. Auto key would be great since the workflow is fast. The graph editor rocks. Animate's editor has always given me a hassle and no undo's, ouch! You can also hold down the space bar to multiselect in the viewer or graph editor. Wait until you see the expression systems. There are three kinds, simple, relational (visual node based) and complex (spread sheet like). Depending on what you are doing you can select a system to work with plus having drag and drop is very cool. It is really a different way of working, but you can catch onto it fast. I think the 4.5 update is going to improve some of the issues that a lot of animators are having coming from Lightave, Maya or XSI.

05 May 2003, 05:53 PM
Just get a copy of MB and check it out. I too am Messiah user and MB is a very very cool tool. From what I hear from Micheal Besner 4.5 is going to be incredable and fix some of those things that Messiah had over MB. It will be out in July and free to those who bought 4. cant say the same for when the next "beta" revision of Messiah Studio. Yeah I know Animate is finished. Ok whatever, tell that to the C4D users, max users and Maya 5 users.

Like was metioned above, nothing wrong with having good tools at hand.

I understand your thing with Maya and thier industry mass mind marketing. I agree but whatever thier marketing tactics may be the fact is Maya has some good tools.

If the LW/Messiah solution was all that for any job then there would be many big studios going that direction to save money. But they are not because though Maya may not be all that out of the box they can make it do anything they want.

Dont get me wrong I love LW/Messiah. For a small studio like ours its awsome. It gives us great tools for many things but we find we are hitting walls somtimes.
Kinda like you guys were with AM.

Thats why at home I also use Maya and MB to tear down those walls.

05 May 2003, 08:14 PM
I guess I'm a little confused about what MB is actually used for. Is it primarily games and television? The brochure seems to be targeting this area. I'm with Messiah because I'm wanting to do high-quality movie style (think Pixar) animation. The stuff I've seen from MB so far has yet to impress me in this area. In what ways is it better than Messiah?


05 May 2003, 08:31 PM
Well for one thing. . . Marketing. ;) Its on the tip of everyones tongue right now and they are all but giving it away to try and entrench themselves into people's production pipelines.

I have watched the "advanced" animating instructional video that they have on their website and I have to say that it does NOT have anything over what we have with Messiah or even AM for that matter in terms of animation tools.

But it sure has momentum and user support. . . which helps a lot.

tOd: Your right in that having more tools to get the job done helps. . . but I have yet to even scratch the surface of the animation potential I have in Animate. . . so I'm not gunna be exploring any time soon.

I will keep my eye on it though.

05 May 2003, 07:02 AM
Motion Builder can be used for any type of animation styles, including Pixar like. You can use FK, IK or FK and IK together and blend between the two. Motion Builder has a complete expression system that is equal to Messiah's, plus a very nice f-curve editor (something I find easier than Animates). The FBX format supports blend shapes and endomorphs. Not to mention up to 200 undo's. MB has a lot of features equal and above Messiah, not to mention being available now with excellent support. It's a great tool, and it's great to have options like MB available.

John Lee
05 May 2003, 11:23 AM
VERY QUIET IT IT IS INDEED. If it interests you have a look at this Thread. All of the animation is done in project messiah.


Enjoy Tell us what you think if you seen it already sorry!



05 May 2003, 01:50 PM
hi John,
it's a really beautiful reel. :)

John Lee
05 May 2003, 01:53 PM
Thanks Buddy. Man it is quiet isn't it?? You even have to click and extra tab to get into there LOL

05 May 2003, 03:16 PM

Man it is quiet isn't it?? You even have to click and extra tab to get into there LOL

Buried away here in the back? Pity the section isn't more obvious.

Lovely work there John. So nice to see someone doing great things with my favourite software.

ah well, back to rigging..


05 May 2003, 10:50 PM
Its quiet on the offical mesiah boards but most of the time, the guys are just aniamting :beer:

But I would like to help out, I just keep forgetting this forum is here.
Enail me if you have any questions?

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