View Full Version : CryMod Project: Homeland Security

01 January 2008, 07:25 AM
I guess I should first start with a brief synopsis of the work that I am doing...

I'm sure many of you have heard of a recent release called Crysis. But, what many of you may not know is just what the CryEngine2 is capable of. Of course it's capable of beautiful, lush forests, breathe taking lighting, super-real physics, and a bullet traveling at almost the speed of light...right through your CPU. ;) ...But, the engine has yet to meet it's full potential. Actually, it doesn't nessicarilly have potential, persay. It's true "landmark" status in gaming engines has come from the fact that the engine is able to adapt to many different styles of games. It is a real world simulation model. And, it's only limitations are the creativity and time available by the artist/designer. It has all of the tools available to re-create just about any landscape accurately. Plus, the added bonus of things like weather, gravity, inercia, and even appears to adhere to many of the laws of physics. ....Though, currently the settings are not 100% accurate. They can be modified to present a real world enviroment. And, the things like wind are actually partical based effects that affect the world around them. Each object in the game is capable of being allowed to be effected by the wind and other enviromental effects.

Now, I'm sure none of you decided to check out this thread for a "fanboy" synops of just another video game... So, here is my project.

The name of the mod has yet to be determained, but I am currently calling it Homeland Security. I envision taking the CryEngine2 and molding it into a Battlefield/Grand Theft Auto/Call of Duty style game. That focuses on gameplay and exploration...rather than a bunch of pretty trees and beaches...* No offence Crytek, love your work ;)

Let me endulge each of these references for a moment so that I can explain their influences.

Battlefield was really a landmark in gaming. There were some of the same "sandbox" style games out before it, but Battlefield was the first to really master it. (with the generation of technology available, of course). So, the influence in my mod would have to be the "sandbox" style of gameplay. An open, free to roam about as you please, no loading nessicary map. (Only my map is just under 1,000 sq mi.)

Grand Theft Auto, nuff said. Basically, guns, cars, cities, tanks, heli's, and all things explosives.

Call of Duty... Call of Duty 4 Modern Warfare has to be one of the most beautiful games that I've seen. It really does have all of the "look" of Crysis, but better in ways. Don't get me wrong, Crysis looks great. And, the technology is slightly more advanced. But, CoD 4 has a certain finess about it. So, I intend to do my best to see to it my mod looks on par with CoD 4.


Set in 2012, terrorist have made a strong presence in the U.S. Furthing their "anti-American" campaign. Becoming well armed, diverting from suicide bombings in favor of tactical strategies, and making a bold "behind enemy lines" military attack on the United States. They have managed to infiltrate an East Coast city (yet to be determined) and are staging strategic battle fronts against the cities' local and government law enforcment. Politicians hesitated in bringing in military support for the fear of escalating the Nations fear of terrorism. But, that delay in action has cost the U.S. the "upper hand", and the terrorists have now managed to secure many areas of the city. In light of the ******* *****, (sorry, can't spoil it for anyone), the U.S. Government has decided to issue Marshal Law in the city in hopes for a less chaotic environment in which to fight the terrorists using military force. Strict curfews, non-essential travel suspended, and various other restrictions including voluntary evacuation. (This will help designing the game to be more focused on the story rather than on the "city life" AI. Though the pedestian AI will be thourough.) This is merly where the storyline begins, but there is much more involved. I just can't tell you. ;)

Which brings me to the player. A Homeland Security Officer and former Delta Force - Force Recon Sniper. The storyline is based around this charector, as merly a vantage point for the "larger picture of events". Which is where the story focuses. More of an FPS/RPG/political conspiracy novel...even though this is undoubtably a war game, it will be structured so that it conveys the issues first, but in a way as to not deflect the action. The storyline doesn't come together until about the 5th mission. I'm still writing, so this may change. But, I will tell you that when I finish this mod, the storyline will end in a place that allows for some understanding and "sence of closure" to the story, but will pick back up in a second installation. Which will take place else where...still not won't be until the second set of missions that the story begins to hit home and become a little more believable. If not frightenly all too possible.

The story is based around much of what is currently going on in Iraq and surrounding countries. But, is carried out under the pretence of possible future events. I am still writing the storyline and still have more research to do to ensure that it is as "possible" as possible. ...hehe, I don't even think that made sence. As well as seeing to it that everything is accurate.

The city will be filled with accurate buildings and general layout. (Not GPS accurate, but enough to give the appearance of the real city.) At least over a hundred different models of cars will travel the streets in order to keep from seeing 15 of the same cars at a stop light. (GTA:SA) There will be all types of vehicles, even exotics. And, I intend on spending a lot of time scripting the vehicals to be as realistic as possible in consideration to their physics as well as collisions. I don't wish for this to become a driving simulator, but to make a game realistic...everything needs to be a "simulation". Pedestrians will each have a home and a place of work, and a schedual that they follow. Random car accidents will take place in intersections and various other places. (still debating on vehical damage - or at least the extent of it, mainly because I'm not sure how difficult it is to do.) There will be some gang violence, but not enough to take away from the storyline. Just enough to make an unsuspected drive by give you a bit of a start. Airports with flyable planes. Military bases that are fully stocked, even with a few prototypes to play with. Plus, underground 'Top Secret' facilites (military, government, criminal, corporate, etc.). The goal is to create a living, breathing city. As detailed a possible. With building interiors, interactive objects, etc. A full stock of weapons and toys. And, yes, nukes will play a factor. (The nukular effects in the CryEngine2 are remarkable. They actually level anything in there blast radius, complete with shockwave and wind...kinda puts a knife in your CPU, though).

So, you can kind of get an idea of where I'm going with this. I intend on a very large map. I mean LARGE! (close to a thousand square miles) But, I will most likely try to position large buildings and other "view obstructing" things throughout the map to allow for a short draw distance of the more complex objects and vegitation...As to avoid 3 frames per sec on the average persons computer. However, there will be plenty of space to roam as you please. I do not intend on the size of the city to match that of Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, for the simple fact that the buildings in this mod will be far more difficult to model than the "boxes with textures" in GTA:SA. But, I will do my best to make the city as large as I can.... Although most of the map is going to be ocean, mountains, streams, lakes, and small towns/suburbs. Which will cut down on modeling time and allow for plenty of space for expansive missions, joy riding in cars (even take them to the track if you like), ....and, plenty of room for dog fighting in a large variety of aircraft! ...I'd tell you with who, but I don't want to spoil the story. ;) But, I will tell you that the enemy aircraft are Russian and American made.

Initially, I don't plan on having a dialog incorported into the mod. Which, by itself, takes away much of the realism of the gameplay as far as missions go. But, after I get the mod completed (expect this to be close to a year from now, if not longer) I may see if I can get some sort of dialog added into the game later. This would probably be done by posting wanted adds in the CryMod forums for actors, and providing them with scripts and a background on the situation they would be in during their dialog. Then, have them email me the .wav files and choose the best ones. But, that really isn't a priority right now.


Now that I've given you an idea of what I'm doing, I should probably take this time to tell you...this thread IS NOT about the game. The purpose of this thread is all about the modeling. Which there is plent of! I wanted a place to be able to ask other CG Artists if they would be willing to take part in the creation of my little piece of digital Earth. Minus global warming, of course.

If anyone at all is interested in helping create the seemingly endless number of models needed for this mod, please either post a response in this thread, PM me, or send me an email (

Here shortly I will post a list of the objects I need modeled. And, if any of them look like they would be fun to do or if you already have a model of the object and don't mind sharing it (and it fits with the critiria for what I need: polycount, etc.), then please contact me. Since I already have a couple people who will be modeling with me, I decided that I will make a list of all of the people who contributed models/scripting/textures/CryShaders/ideas/etc. along with what it was they contributed and their contact info (if you wish for it to be shared). And this list will be made available in a begining credits to the game (a Flash reel before the first mission) as well as in the end credits. Plus, obvioulsy in the description of the game and anywhere else it would seem fitting. I would like to do this because in my experience, many people do a lot of really hard work contributing to mods of games, but never get attention for their work. Also, I would like to say that all those who contribute models to my design will be allowed to retain all rights to the their respective models. I will keep a detailed list and documention on what everyone has contributed, for the sake of credit as well as for legal reasons, so that no ones work gets stolen. This way you may sell you models on a 3D store or whatever you wish to do with them.

It will probably be sometime tomorrow before I get the list posted here, but maybe tonight. The list won't be complete as I'm sure I will run across things I need in the future, but I would like to have most of them in the list so that people have as many to choose from as possible.

Thank You for taking the time to read this. I know I tend to go on and on forever on end. But, I promise my posts in the future will require much less reading. Just generic updates about progress and such. Also, since this thread is going to be dedicated to the modeling aspects of this mod, I will post a link to a thread on where I will be posting my progress on all other aspects of Project: Homeland Security.

Hope you've enjoyed my project and would love to see some of you get involved in it.

Again, Thank You!

01 January 2008, 08:46 PM
This post is the list of the models that I need for my mod. Anyone who wishes to model any of these is more than welcome to do so.

A little legal stuff:

"You will be given credit for your work. Your work will not be sold or distributed in any other way than in my mod. You will retain all rights to your work as to be able to sell it, or whatever you wish to do with it. However, for the purposes of this mod only, I request the right to be able to use your work without limitation. By offering your work you understand that it will be used in this mod which will be avalible to download freely from once finished. No royalties may be claimed on your work for use in this mod. And, likewise, noone may claim your work to be their own. I will keep a detailed list of the models and who they belong to for legal and organizational purposes. I cannot guarantee that your work will not be extracted from the mod by end-users, and it is your responsibility, if you desire, to report unauthorized use of your work.

"Only submit work for the purposes of this mod if you understand and agree to the above stipulations and guidlines."

It is important to read the following carefully before starting any work for this mod...

Process for requesting a model to work on:

(Please do not request a model if you do not intend on completing it. I will mark models in the list as taken once someone has requested it. If you do not finish the model, it puts a great dely in the completion time for that specific model as noone else will have been working on that specific model. However, if something should come up and you are unable to finish your model, please let me know as soon as possible. I understand some things are just unforseen. Thank You!)

1. PM me with the name or names of the models from the list that you wish to claim for your own. As well as the following:

These are not required, I just need to know how to direct you in building the model.

a. Are you able to do rigging and/or animating?

b. Do you have the ability to send the final model in a .MAX format? If not,
what software do you use?

c. Do you have the Sandbox2 Editor-CryEngine2 software? (comes free with the Crysis

d. Do you know how to create a CryShader and apply it properly?

e. Length of time you expect to spend on the model? (not binding in any way, just
gives me an idea of when I can expect the models)

2. I will send you via PM a response with the full specifications and requirements for that specific model. ie: Poly count; how the topology should be laid out (only pertains to specific models); what materials/textures should be applied, if any; and, differences or details that are not in the blueprints that I provide. ( I will provide all blueprints and referance photos to be used so that the model turns out like what I intended. - Not trying to be picky, but many of the models could be built a variety of different ways, and I typically have a specific end-result in mind when I post a model in this list.)

3. (Optional) Post the progress of your model/s in the WIP/Critique Game Art Design forum. Use this format for the title so that people viewing this thread may easily find the work being done on the mod: Project: Homeland Security - Name of Model.

The list below is ordered alphabetically by catagory and make (I'm sure I'll misplace a few). Models that have been claimed will be marked in red print. (I will update this post as soon as I give a model to someone so that you know which are still available. If you request, I will post your name next to the object/s you've chosen, along with a link to your WIP.)

Civilian Cars and Trucks

- Aston Martin DBR1 1957
- Aston Martin Vanquish 2006
- Aston Martin Vanquish Zagato
- Audi A3 Cabriolet
- Audi A4 Avant
- Audi A6 2008
- Audi Q7 2006
- Audi R8 TDI 2008
- Audi RS6 2008
- Audi TT Roadster 2008
- Bentley Arnage Red Label 2001
- Bentely Continental Convertible 2005
- BMW 3 Series Touring 2006
- BMW 5-Series Sedan
- BMW 5 Series Touring 2007
- BMW 6-Series Coupe
- BMW M3 2004
- BMW X5 2004
- BMW Z8
- Bugatti 16.4 Veyron
- Cadillac CTS 2008
- Cadillac DTS 2007
- Cadillac XLR 2007
- Chevrolet Astro LWB 2005
- Chevrolet Camaro Convertible 1967
- Chevrolet Cobalt 2007
- Chevrolet Colorado 2007
- Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 1963
- Chevrolet Corvette Convertible 1993
- Chevrolet Impala 2005
- Chevrolet Impala 2007
- Chevrolet Malibu 2008
- Chevrolet Monte Carlo 2007
- Chevrolet Pick-Up 1946
- Chevrolet Silverado 900 4x4 2007
- Chevrolet Silverado Ext Cab 2006
- Chevrolet Suburban 2007
- Chevrolet Suburban 1937
- Chevrolet Tahoe 2006
- Chevrolet Trailblazer 2007
- Chrysler 300C 2005
- Chrysler Aspen 2007
- Chrysler Crossfire
- Chrylser Pacifica 2007
- Chrysler PT Cruiser Cabrio
- Ferrari 250 GTO
- Ferrari 288 GTO 1984
- Ferrari 328 GTS
- Ferrari 348 TS
- Ferrari 550 Maranello
- Ferrari 612
- Ferrari Dino 246GT
- Ferrari Enzo
- Ferrari F40
- Ferrari F355 Spider
- Ferrari F430 Spider
- Ford Can Am Tri
- Ford F-150 1988
- Ford GT 2005
- Ford Mustang 1965
- Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 1968
- Ford Pickup 1958
- Ford Tourneo Connect 2005
- Hummer H1 Slant Back Civilian Spec
- Jeep Gladiator 1965'
- Jeep Wrangler Rubicon 2007 w/ Removable Hartop/Bikini Top
- Jeep Wrangler 2005 w/ Removable Hardtop
- Koenigsegg CCR
- Lamborghini Countach 5000S
- Lamborghini Diablo Koenig
- Lamborghini Mucrcelago
- Land Rover Range Rover 1998
- Land Rover Range Rover HSE 2004
- Lexus SC 2007
- Lincon Continental Mark II 1956
- Mercedes-Benz 300 SL 1956
- Mercedes-Benz CL500 2007
- Mercedes-Benz G-Wagon LWB 2005
- Mercedes-Benz Maybach
- Mercedes-Benz Brabus SLR McLaren Convertible 2008
- Nissan Pathfinder 2005
- Nissan Silvia S15 2004
- Nissan Skyline R34 GTR
- Pagani Zonda F
- Pagani Zonda Roadster
- Toyota Camry 2007
- Toyota Land Cruiser 2007
- Toyota Supra 1995


- Aprilia RSV 1000R 2004
- Ducati 999R 2004
- Suzuki R1000 2005

Heavy Trucks, Buses, and Trains

- Box Truck (have blueprints)
- Freightliner (have blueprints)
- Freightliner Roadtrain (have blueprints)
- Mack CV 712
- Mercedes-Benz O530 2005
- NSWPTC72 Class Diesel Hydraulics
- Peterbuilt 359
- Volvo FH-12 Globetrotter XL
- Volvo FH-16 Air Ride

Military Land Vehicles

- AMX 30
- AN DE Class DL
- APC Fuschs
- Ford M20
- Kampfpanzer Leopard
- King Tiger
- LAV 25 APC
- Leopard II A5
- Luna SSM
- Lynx
- M1 Abrams
- M2 Bradley
- M3 Half-Track/Truck M16 AA
- M20 Armored Utility Car
- M26 Pershing
- M36 Jackson
- M1025 Hamby HMMWV Weapon Carrier
- M1026 HMMWV Slant Back Hummer
- M1046 Humvee TOW Missle Carrier
- M1123 HMMWC Truck Variant
- M1126 Stryker IFV
- T-34-76 1941

Military and Civilian Aircraft (Jets and Props)

- Boeing 747 SP
- Boeing 777-200 LR
- Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress
- Boeing Bird of Prey
- Boeing Stearman PT13 17
- Curtis P-40 Kittyhawk II
- F-4B N Phantom
- Grumman F-14 Tomcat
- Letov L-39 Albatros
- Lockheed C-5 Galaxy
- Lockheed F-117A Knighthawk
- Lockheed Martin - General Dynamics F-16B Fighting Falcon
- Lockheed SR-71 Blackbird
- Lockheed Martin F-22A Raptor
- North American F-100 Super Sabre
- North American P-51B Mustang
- North American P-51D Mustang
- Northrop F-5 Freedom Fighter
- Northrop F/A-18 Hornet
- Northrop Grumman B-2B Spirit
- Northrop T-38 Talon
- Yakovlev Yak-11 WWII

Military and Civilian Helicopters

- AH-64 Apache
- Bell 430
- CH-46E Sea King
- Comanche
- Cougar AS 532 U2 A2
- EC 155B
- H-3 Sea King
- UH-1N "Huew"
- UH-60 Blackhawk

In case you weren't counting, that's 147 models...well, if I counted correctly. ;) And, I will be adding to this list, but not much more. I just have to decide on some storyline crutial aspects that will require specific aircraft, etc.

Now, this post is just for the vehicles. I will post the buildings, bridges, and various other objects that need to be created later. I have to decide on my city first.

01 January 2008, 09:47 PM
Very ambitious project! I wish you the best of luck, :thumbsup: I'd love to offer my modeling skills but I'm very busy at the moment, however I'll contact you if I can lend a hand.

Good luck with the project, :thumbsup:



01 January 2008, 02:57 AM
Not trying to sound like an ass but...who are you? And while everyone else is making your game for you, what exactly do you do?

01 January 2008, 05:01 AM
Not trying to sound like an ass but...who are you? And while everyone else is making your game for you, what exactly do you do?


Well, you don't sound like an ass, and it's a valid question/s...

First, I'm Joshua Scott. I live in Kansas. I'm a General Contractor in the aviation industry. I live in a loft apartment with a cat named Socs. Which is short for Socrates. I spend 2 nights a week at Club Indigo. I play guitar...I play stuff like Death Cab for Cutie, Ari Hest, Howie Day, and Jack Johnson. As my username would suggest, I'm Irish. My family is spread out between Wichita; South Bend, Indiana; and Belfast, Ireland. No, I don't have an accent, but I do a great impression. I like to travel. ...and, obviously I enjoy 3D art as well as modding.

So that is who I am. In a nut shell at least. ;)

As for what it is that I do, well, just about everything. Not everything in the sence that I will be making this mod by myself because that would take years. But, I have experience in just about every area of modding. From modeling, texturing, animating, and rigging... to AI scripting, scripting effects, scripting vehicle behavior, scripting vehicle controls, mapping flow graphs, sculpting the 1,000 square mile map into a believable representation of the the real East Coast of the United States, using my artistic touch to paint the textures on the height map to produce a realistic ground for the world, and even though it doesn't take much experience...the process of adding in vegitation so that there is no area in the map which could present a less than perfect representation of the Discovery Channel tends to take a bit of time.

Also, I'm certainly not asking for people to do the work for me. But, the modding community is usually very helpful in aiding in modding assets. I have a few friends from college that are helping me as well...And, as far as I'm concered, the mod will belong to everyone that helps make it. Even someone only contributes one model, I feel that the person who submitted the work should deserve credit for helping to make the mod a reality. In the end, us modders don't do this for money. I won't say what I charge per hour in my contracts ...but, the amount of hours that I have already invested into this mod would cost a fortune if I was paying myself a wage. And, I expect this mod to take quite a while to finish. But, the point is that a mod isn't limited like a production video game. Because the mod isn't for sale. And it actually can't be sold, Crytek owns all right to the game engine. But, since there is not monitary value being made by the distribution of the game, means that I could add a thousand real life cars to the mod and not have to pay out a dime for a single licence. I'm able to spend a year or two years or how ever long it takes to finish and not have to worry about deadlines. Also, if you check out sites such as, you'll see that the modding communtiy is all about helping each other to get our mods posted for download. Because in the end. We are the ones making the game. ...Think of the game Crysis as a taster for what the engine is capable of. It was really the game engine that you bought, not the 10 or so missions that came with it. Because, us avid gamers are able to spot a great engine and see it's potential. And Crytek knows this. This is why they are working so hard at making sure all of the glitches in the SB2 Editor get fixed...and are trying desperatly to get the SDK released so that the modders have all the tool we need. Because in the end, it's the mods that keep a game alive, as well as show off what it can really do!

This may seem a little long winded for an answer to a simple question, but I would like you to understand, as well as anyone else reading this, that building a "Full-Conversion" mod for a game...especially one as complex as the CryEngine2/ a very difficult and drawn out process. The reason I posted these models for people to build for me, is because it would take me next to forever to do all of them myself...and those who enjoy great mods...don't like waiting forever. But, that doesn't mean that I won't be building models as well. I marked off the 07' Cadillac XLR and Northrop F-5 Freedom Fighter for myself to model. Once I finish those two, I will take on a couple more. Basically, any models that don't get done by other people are going to have to be made, so I will need to model them. I'm not going to cut things out of this mod because I can't get people to do it for me, I'm just trying to speed up the process.

Also, I can honestly say that I don't think a mod of this size has ever been attemted. (Please correct me if I'm wrong, I didn't research this...just havn't ever heard of one this massive) ...This is probably due to the fact that the game engines of the past didn't allow for such on expansive world in a single map. So, this really isn't "my" project, because it would be impossible for me to do it myself...think of it more as a community project. Yes, I'm writing the storyline, and I'm deciding what direction the mod goes. But, I take comments and suggestions in terms of what the 'end-users' of the mod are going to want. Also, if any would prefer the mod to be something other than what I'm making it...I will gladly give them my all my files on my progress so that they may build their own mod from what I already have done. (I would not include any models that I haven't made myself, anyone who wishes to build on my work for a different mod will need to ask the builders of the models for permission)... I encourage as many mods as possible, because they're essentially free games!

So, thank you for your question. I'm actually glad you asked. But, since anyone who has built a mod understands the work that goes into it, and to suggest that the person who's essentially taking the point position in creating the mod isn't doing any work...well...I just can't help myself....Here's your sign. :applause: lol

Ok, I'm just kidding about the sign thing, but seriously thank you for your question, I'm sure that some people may have gotten that idea, so I'm glad that I could get that cleared up. I just want to make sure that no one thinks that I'm trying to ask other people to do all the work for me. But, I am more than willing to give away as much work as people feel like doing. This really is a massive project. If you read a little into how to create a full conversion mod, then read into how complex the CryEngine2 is....then you'd kinda get an idea of what I'm up against.


01 January 2008, 06:18 AM
do you have any previous work you can show?

I've been on a Crysis mod team for the last couple years & a big draw for me was the previous work of the mod team members..they all had something to show..(other than very long winded stretches of text:eek: )

for such an extensive shopping list I'd image potential modelers would want to know you have some experience.

I give you points for stressing the legal stuff..good to see your starting on the right foot on that front

01 January 2008, 06:43 AM
LOL...that was a lot more info than I expected from you. To echo Stefan though, what you are trying to accomplish without the pedigree of having done so before, is a red flag to me, especially since you haven't produced any previous work for anyone to see.

IMHO I think you are going about this the wrong way. You need a programmer or really good scripter firmly on board before you ask anybody for anything. Do you have one? If not, you are really just inviting people to waste their time because your mod won't happen without one. Once you get one, the two of you need to turn out some work on your mod for others to see and gauge the quality. Since you can do everything, I'm sure that won't be a problem. Any talented person is going to want to see that they are working with other talented people.

Sorry if you feel like a target, but it annoys me to no end when I see inexperienced people attempt to lead mods, but here's hoping you buck the trend, although it looks you are trying to run before learning to walk.

01 January 2008, 07:00 AM
do you have any previous work you can show?

I've been on a Crysis mod team for the last couple years & a big draw for me was the previous work of the mod team members..they all had something to show..(other than very long winded stretches of text:eek: )

for such an extensive shopping list I'd image potential modelers would want to know you have some experience.

I give you points for stressing the legal stuff..good to see your starting on the right foot on that front


First, I'd like to address the legal stuff. I just want to make sure anyone interested in helping out with my mod understands that they are able to retain rights to their respective work for use anywhere else they choose. Whether that be to sell, presentations, you name it. The only thing I ask for is the right to use the models/scripts/etc in this mod. Nowhere else. So, I don't think that necessarily deserves kudos, but thanks for the mention.

As for previous work, this will be my first mod. I've worked with friends in the past creating mini-mods, and I've also done work on Battlefield 2 in creating enemy AI enhancments. Not necessarily anything that is visual which I could show in this thread, but I do have a good understanding of what it is that I'm doing. Plus, I'm very resourceful. If I'm unsure of how to do something, I post questions on forums, and dig around on google. Also, I have done a lot of research to get to this stage. Since I've never been the lead designer of a full conversion mod before, I've been talking to a lot of the people that I've worked with in the past. Mostly my friends from college. We started out just writing little scripts for Half-Life and creating our own vehicles for BF1942. But, I've gathered as many tutorials and forum post as possible to study this project from every angle. From concept to functionality. Funcionality being my biggest concern. I'm attacking the mod from the angle of scalable mile stones. Meaning that each stage of the project will focus on expanding on previous work, rather than working on every aspect of the mod at once. That way I have the ability to test progress to ensure that it is still with-in practical limits based on the progression of PC technology to about 1-1.5 years out.

90% of the 3D work that I've done has been with AutoCAD and Catia. And all of that work is bound by confidentiality with Boeing/Spirit Aerosystems. I know that doesn't give anyone much to go on, and I do agree that people will and should want background on my experience before wasting time on a mod, when they are unsure as to whether it will make final release.

So, I will dig around and see if I can find any of my 3D models. I have made quite a few, but it's been forever. At least for recreational purposes. I just recently got back into 3D modeling with 3DS Max 9. 3DS is the program I used before Boeing desided to drop AutoCAD and make the insane leap to Catia (I loath that program, damn Frenchies...beautiful cites, horrible software.) But, it was just too difficult to learn a program like Catia while using another 3D software. ...I primarily do material stress testing in Catia. But, I also use Catia occasionally for modeling when it's needed for work, as well as fluid dynamics.

Anyway, as soon as I find some of my old work, I'll post it in my profile for people to take a look at. And, I'm also currently working on the Cadillac XLR and the Northrop F-5 Freedom Fighter. So, I will probably start a WIP for both of those for people to follow. As for the modding itself, I will be posting a thread on soon. I've been meaning to do it, and just haven't gotten to it yet. But, that thread will have more "mod specific" discussion. Like I stated earlier, I'd like this thread to be primarily about the modeling aspects of the mod.

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot to learn. But, I'm not some runny nosed kid either. ;)

01 January 2008, 07:33 AM
I just posted a response for Stefan, but didn't catch shade01's post.


I get what the two of you are saying. ...first, I don't want this thread to become a long debate over whether or not people should build models for this mod. Because with or with out help from those here on, myself as well as a few of my friend intend on doing the work. But, that doesn't mean that I wouldn't greatly appriciate any work that people are willing to do. I would love all the help I can get.

My next point is this, I haven't ever taken a "lead" postion on a mod before. But, I have done little things here and there, and I do plenty of reading. I am certainly not concerned with my level of inteligence in being able to teach myself anything that I need to continue progress on my mod. (Which at this point is still a concept. I'm holding off on the real work until the SDK is released so that I am able to use all of the tools available for the engine, I don't like starting a project in the dark being unclear as to what will and won't be in the SDK.) So, to answer your question as to whether or not I have a dedicated scripter...well, no. Didn't think it was nessicary. Chris Buckley is one of the friends that I mentioned from college, and he is more than capable when it comes to scripting. I leared what I know from him, and the others that we're working with kind of pick things up as we go. For the past few months, though, we've really just been playing with the Editor. Learning all of it's abilities and seeing what possibilities there are available to us right now. Plus, waiting on the SDK to really dive into the deep end.

Another point I would like to make is that I'm actually a little agravated by these questions. Stefan, I understood your question. And, respected it. I think everyone has a right to an opinion, esspecially on a forum. But, I'm not telling anyone to help out with this mod. To get the mod to the size and level of detail that we want...a lot of details models are going to be needed. Concidering I work 50hrs a takes me at the very least 3 weeks to complete a model of a car. So, I thought I would post a thread requesting help. If you want to make a model, great. I'd be happy to give you all the credit in the world. I'd even say thank you, and I really appritiate your help...and mean it!

Furthermore, when I refer to my team...I am not suggesting that I have a sqaud of professionals sitting at $10,000 computers who do nothing but design mods and study programming. We're just a bunch of guys that got shit-faced for four years during college together. And, yeh, we like to think we have what it takes to build this mod. We've done little projects before, and we'd like to take a shot at something bigger. But I wouldn't say that we're a "mod team", we don't have a website, I'm the only one with a membership to 3D forums, ...but, we are all well educated in our fields. We take pride in doing the best at what we do. I'm an Aeronautical Engineer, Chris does CAD drawings for local home builders in the area, and DMan is an IT for Plaza Real Estate.

I'm trying not to sound like I'm being snobby or anything like that, but damn. We're just some guys with a cool idea who thought a little help would be nice. We didn't know we had to audition. Not to mention it's always been my experiance in the past that when I needed help with anything regarding modding or just plain modeling...the 3D and Modding commuity were always very helpful. Which is why I posted this thread.

And, as for your comment about not doing anything till I have a programmer on board. Well, I'm not going to have one on board. That's right, we're wingin' it! And, the reason why I already posted this thread it that we decided that we wanted a lot of models in the mod, and models take time to build. I wasn't sure how many people would be interested in helping, but I already have a few working on stuff. So, if you would like a portfolio and a resume' I would say to you that I'm not begging for you to model anything for me. If you don't want to, that is fine. If you do, then great...and thank you. But, please allow this thread to get back on the topic of modeling. I will let you know when I get my post up at and you can feel free to crit my abilities or whatever you wish in that thread. This is the thread that myself and my friends are most concerned with because we really do need help getting models completed. As they play a big part in our mod.

As for those who are currently helping with models and those interested, thank you. We really do appriciate your help and once the SDK is released and we get some progress done, we will be more than happy to post it for you. In fact, we figured we would start with the layout of the streets to base our city on. So, as soon as we get that far, we will work on getting the scripting done for the vehicles so that we can post a download of the map (most likely just for the Editor to be able to play) , so that you guys can drive your models around a little. Sounds kinda boring. But, I really can't wait to see what some well modeled objects look like with the CryShaders and some ToD tweaks. ;)


One last thing. After looking back over the Shade01 and Stefan's posts, I get the feeling that their main point seems to be that people want to know if they build models for this mod that the mod will get finished and that their time will not have been wasted. Well, it may not get finished. I'm a general contractor, so I go where the work is. And, if I'm working out of town, I usually don't have a lot free time. But I cleary made two points in my initial posts.

First, if anyone sees a models in the list that they would enjoy modeling and don't mind sharing, then please do.

And, second, I made it clear that rights of the models built will stay with the builders. It isn't as if I'm asking for people to build models for me and say that whether I use them or not, they no longer have rights to them.

So, please, only make models if you enjoy the model your building. I don't want anyone to feel like they are doing some kind of "work" for me. I am under the impression that most of you are on this site because you enjoy modeling. And, that would lead me to believe that those interested in building models from the list that I posted, would do so because they enjoy it. ...I have already had someone tell me they were having a hard time deciding which model to build, and made a referance to owning a few 80's model Camaro's in regard to the 67' Camaro in the list. So, I told him to feel free to model a 91' RS Camaro w/ T-Tops instead of the 67' because that is the body style he likes. I'd still like to get the 67' modeled at some point, but a 91' Camaro is what would be enjoyable for him.

You can take this with a grain of salt, but I really don't think I'm putting a gun to anyones head. And, I assumed concidering the nature of this website, being 3D dedicated and all, that maybe some people would be kind enough to do what they enjoy anyway and help me out in the process.

01 January 2008, 09:04 AM
Now that I've gotten those questions out of the way, I'd like to get back on topic. I've had a couple of requests to do the 747 and 777's. Which suprised me, I figured no one would want to do them and I was dreading it. But, I thought I would put this in a post so I don't keep getting questions on them.

Yes, I do plan on having interiors modeled for them. And, if you would like, you may model either of them without the interiors. If you do wish to do the interior, though, I have a few criteria for them. If this is what you deside, let me know and I'll get some photos to you with an explaination of what I need. ...and, as with all models, just model using the style of modeling that you prefer, and I'll clean it up or make changes if they are necessary. Don't worry about intigration into the game, I have someone doing those modifications.

I was originally going to do that, but it seems as though no one else that I'm working with likes to read. So, I'm doing research on the two cities that we are concidering as far as how they are laid out and getting an image database together in order to get the map fairly accruate. Once finished with this, I will begin the topology of the landscape and begin texturing and adding in vegitation. As well as laying out 'roughed' in roads to get a feel for how the city will be built. Once I get to this stage I will post photos of the progress in a thread.

And Raven, I am still looking for those blueprints to the Camaro. The only ones that I've found so far are very low resolution and/or perspective photos. If all else fails, I'll just make some blueprints for it. But, do get those files to me. I still don't really understand the difference in the modifiers that we are using, so it would be nice to be able to take a look at it. You Maya kids crack me up. :rolleyes: lol Though, I guess I shouldn't talk. I'm a Catia 5 kid...and that's just sucks. lol ..."Burn Catia!":applause: Those silly backwards Frenchmen. Why can't they just build software like everyone else. :shrug:

01 January 2008, 09:44 AM
i tell you what i will model something for your mod. Mainly because i have been looking for a reason to start modelling again and the other reason is that i want to be part of a mod team especially one for crysis.

Ferrari Dino 246GT please!

I wanted to do a landrover range rover but i couldnt find descent blue prints for the1998 model you wanted the best ones i could find were for a 1991.

One question what poly counts are we looking at?

pm me

01 January 2008, 01:26 PM
Wowzer.. thats one huge list of assets! do you think that it is entirely nessicary/feasable?
there are AAA developers out there that don't aim this high with 3d content :)

I would be inclined to scale down the concept somewhat initally... then you can always expand to the "ideal world" level that you are aiming for if things go well.

I have been involved in quite a few online based projects in the past and that alone makes things alot harder to organise.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not here to put a negative spin on things... my intention is merely to suggest that you scale back the concept a little in order to improve the likelyhood of getting this thing completed. At the moment I believe the scale alone will be putting people off.

I too have got too much work on the go at the moment, but I will wish you luck...

01 January 2008, 05:03 PM
Seems impossible to get done in any sort of reasonable amount of time. I would suggest listening to the voices of reason that have already posted and scoping back your project significantly into something that is managable with only a few people working on it (in their spare time and for free, to boot). Set more realistic goals for yourself and your project. Otherwise this is vaporware before it even began. Like most mods that get advertised on forums

01 January 2008, 09:05 PM
Ok, I'm on lunch, but I'm going to try to address these questions and comments real quick...

First, psychojohno, I'm uploading all of my blueprints to now. So, I will PM you the blueprints of the Dino as well as the one for the Range Rover. The blueprints I have of the Range Rover aren't all that great either. I'm really not looking for a 91' Range Rover, but if you would rather do that than a Ferrari Dino...then I certainly won't turn it down. You should get the PM with the blueprints here in a minute. Let me know what you decide to do and I'll mark it off the list and send you all the reference photos that I have for the vehicle. (I have tens of thousands of vehicle photos on my computer. They really aren't that organized, but I have just about anything you could imagine.)

As for polys, that is a very fluid concept. lol Um, well, I'm trying to balance what I want with what is possible. In the end, I want the mod to be something that everyone can play. I would ask for a med-poly and a high-poly version of all the cars to scale according to graphics settings in game. But, that just isn't practicle. I would also like for all of the models to be around 150,000-200,000 polys including interiors, but that just isn't possible. So, I'm trying to make sacrifices on vehicles that don't play an important role in the storyline. All of the exotics I would like around 100,000 (just because I want them to be pretty). But, as for the lower end cars, I would say between 30,000 and 60,000 including interior(depending on which car it is, as well as how much detail the particular car contains). I don't want engines and detailed underbodys at this point. If I decide to do that later on, I'll make the adjustments to them myself. If you really feel like doing them, (and only if you would like the engines and things like that in your model for your own use), then save a file without them, and then add them and save it to a second file. Name them accordingly.

As for the Ferrari Dino, I would like about 50,000 polys. You can adjust this as you see fit. I don't need it to look like Gran Turismo 5, but I would like it to look nice.


Necessary, well, no. But, why not? The mere fact that it is entirely unnecesary is really my motivation. Besides, it's nice escape from my day job.

As for scaling down the initial concept.... I'm two steps ahead of you. I don't know if anyone caught my post earilier when I spoke about not tackeling all aspects of the mod at once, so... What I meant by that is this, I am going to start by building the actual map. Full scale. But, I am only going to work on small areas at a time. The first stage is really just getting the city completed. The only scripting is going to be for the vehicles. The aircraft scripting will probably be done last in this stage. So, what you could expect at the end of stage one is this: All of the models that have been completed at that point will be in the mod. There will not be any mission based scripting/AI/flow graphs/etc. Though, you will be able to travel around the expansive map, it would probably be a little boring with out any trees/buildings/textures/etc. The city is the main focus right now. Once I get this far, I will post the progress for everyone to download. That way, those who have contributed work will be able to see and drive their vehicles in the city. Keep in mind though, that even though the first stage is conciderably more compact than the over all mod, it is still going to take some time to get that far. ...From there, yes, I will be scaling up. But, the AI and missions will be added at the very end, once the map is fully modeled and ready for action.


I get what your saying, but the only thing that really makes the project seem so daunting is the volume of models. I'm really not planning on adding much in the way of "new" aspects to the engine. For the most part, it is just scripting the new vehicles, writing AI and flow graphs, modeling some new characters, and some animation. There are other aspects to concider, but these are the main things that will be altered. And, yes, that in and of itself is a massive project. But, I enjoy it. I honestly don't care how long it takes to finish. I'm really not trying meet any deadlines...I just really enjoy this. So, I'm doing it. Simple as that. And, if your worried about it not getting finished because of the large amount of work to be done...well, like I just said to JoeRobins, I do plan on scaling the mod and tackling it in steps. So, at the very least everyone will be able to download a cool map with scripted real-world vehicles to drive. And of course, feel free to run with it any way they choose. Furthermore, all of the scritps, AI, and everything else written for the mod will be made readily availible for everyone for individual downloads. I know that there are a lot of people who don't know how to do scripting and would like to be able to add their models to the CryEngine2 with out having to use the scripts already in the engine. So, all of that will get posted in the downloads section of

Also, I'm not 'advertising' this mod. I'm requesting help for a project that I thought would be fun! This is not Point of Existance with a dedicated mod team and a fancy website. It's just a project to escape from the all to real daily grind. Forgive me for having a hobby.

With that said, I do appreciate the concern that some of you have expressed. But, I would prefer it if those of you mentioned, would only post on topic posts. This thread is already much more cluttered than I would have liked it to be.

Lastly, I would like to thank all of the people who have requested models to do. I really do appreciate the help! And, here is the link to all of the blueprints that I scrounged up for the models. Feel free to look through them, they are the best I could find so if you can find better blueprints for the model you wish to do, then let me know.

Blueprint Page (

01 January 2008, 08:20 AM
Ok, last night my harddrive decided to dig itself a little grave and give the world a last fairwell. I do have a back-up of the drive, so it really isn't that big of a deal. But, it is going to take me a couple of days to get all of my files situated and stuff. Because the drive I had was a 320gig, I didn't have a realtime carbon copy of it seeing as how my back-up drive is only 150gig. I have a ton of other drives, but they're full of movies and music. So, I have to re-install all of my programs and then get all of the saved files back where they need to be and make it all nice and organized again. So, if I don't respond quickly to your posts, it's because I'm installing 25+ programs... drivers... WinUpdates... "insert tedious task here". Anyway, I just dropped in two Hitachi 7K1000 Tarabyte Raid 0. :buttrock: 2 terabytes of HDD should be more than enough, for a while at least. lol. Also, Crysis loading times are a little quicker as well! ;)

*Note: ...and those 7K1000's retail around $400 each, but since CompUSA is have a going out of business sale I got both of them for $675! Check em out. The store I went into here in Wichita was pretty stripped, but if you have one in your area you might want to check what they have.

01 January 2008, 09:30 AM
Please re-consider.

What you want to do requires tens of thousands of man hours. YOu'll never get a tenth of that. You'd have a hard time getting all that work done if you PAID people. A giant studio would have a hard time making your game.

I've worked on several mods, and the only one that got anywhere had a simple premise, simple execution, and a small amount of assets required.

Basically, you need to create a mod, that you, and maybe one other dedicated partner can finish on your own without any help, because god knows, you wont get much of any. YOu'll be lucky to get one finished model from a fellow teammate.

I did exactly the same thing you're doing now with my first project, I made this huge ambitious epic, and I had a team of 30!! ****ing people. I was a recuiting genius. That project got nowhere.

Please for the love of god, there are already tens of thousands of mod projects that are just as overly ambitious and doomed for failure as yours, so please, spend your time on somehting that at least has a 1 in a million shot of being finished.

01 January 2008, 02:58 PM
you remind me of a guy in my class..

01 January 2008, 06:32 PM
Ok, I think that I have made a few things unclear...or people have failed to read any of the posts that I've made...So, this is the last time I address this issue before I ask an admin to begin deleting posts...


I get what you're saying. As well as what everyone else has been saying. But, I don't think that you realize just what is and isn't involved in my mod. So, let me make one thing very clear. The models are the only real challenge involved. I accept the fact that a lot of them won't get built, I'll probably have to model a lot of the ones that I feel need to be in the mod. But, I'm ok with 65% of the models on that list not getting made. And, even if they do. I'm not suggesting that everyone who has nothing else to do and feels like helping...spend 2 months of time modeling. Just one model is more than I expect from anyone. Not because I don't think that 'most' people generally enjoy helping out others in their particular field, but because I know how little free time that I have. And, I certainly wouldn't invest a lot of time in a project for someone that I didn't know personally. So, again, I appreciate all of the help that I am getting. And, I am trying to be patient with this thread as 90% of the posts I've been getting have been totally off topic. The first one or two posts on the topic of whether or not I have the ability or the time to complete this project was enough. I welcomed those comments and AGREE with them. I know that it is a big project, but I don't mind that. I'm not one of those little punk kids that only start a project because they want to get to the end result. Such as skipping steps or just getting frustrated and quiting when it doesn't move as fast as I want. ...I enjoy this process. And, like I said earlier. I don't care how long it takes. I don't even care if it gets finished to the level that I would like it to be. I just like having something that I enjoy to do as hobby, as well as something productive I can do with my friends. (Other than two-for-one-Tuesdays ;)).

So, please stop posting these messeges. I DO get what your saying. And, you may be right. Hell, your probably right. I just don't give a damn. I like what I'm doing and I don't need a God damn babysitter telling me what I should and shouldn't do with my time. I'm a grown man, and it's not like I don't have a clue what I'm doing. Furthermore, you would think that after the first time that I said that I new it may never get finished and I was just enjoying this process...that those of you posting these comments would have noticed that I'm not some over ambitious little kid with a pipe dream. I'm someone who knows the magnitude of the project being taken on and am merely doing this as a hobby.

So, by all means...for get this thread exists! Forget about my mod, and stop Fing posting off topic posts in my thread. That is not what this is here for!

Now, yet again, let me get back on topic.

...Raven, thanks for files. I don't have 3DS installed again just yet. I will probably do that tonight. Once I do, I'll take a look at the files and try to see what it was that you where talking about.

01 January 2008, 06:38 PM
He reminds me of every mod person ever, hehe. I'm sorry but you're going about it all wrong.

Here's how amateurs who never get anything done think:

- Take good game (made with a ~20 million dollar budget and 50-100+ full-time professional workers over the course of a few years let's say) and make it even better
- Add way more things than the original game had even though I have no time for it
- Add better AI even though I can't program anything
- Add better graphics even though I'm not better than the game developers
- Add a huge map of an entire planet even though that'll make the game crawl since I know nothing about optimization
- Make everything interactive...add planes, cars, boats, the ability to enter houses, interact with people, etc.

And here's how I do that:

1. Get random people from teh internets to make me tons of models before I even have a prototype, test map or any gameplay done
2. ???
3. Succeed!

I'm sorry but that's how all newbie mod makers think and NONE ever finish anything, especially when they have goals that are way too ambitious and would take years to get done even with a huge budget and a hundred talented professionals. If you and 50 other people need to work 40 hours a week on it for 4-5 years, aim lower.

Make a game first and think about the nice graphics and models AFTERWARDS. Use placeholder models until you get the gameplay down then replace them with nice models once you're SURE you can finish this. If you have 50 vehicle models and zero gameplay you have nothing...and that's what you'll have if you don't think realistically about this.

Make a simple game...maybe an online mode or simple single player level. Use the game assets and see if you can create something good then simply replace some graphics, tweak some effets, tweak some weapons and vehicles and replace those models, etc. Don't think you'll start from scratch and actually make things better than what the developers made and don't think you and your team will still be interested in this 2-3 years from now when you realize school, your job, real-life, your wife or your kids take up most of your time. Think rationally if you wanna get anywhere with a mod.

01 January 2008, 12:52 AM
Well, congratulations! I was having a blast with this mod...working on the scripting of the current vehicles in CE2 until the SDK is released to import my own vehicles to be able to use them on, laying out the map to match the D.C. area and putting in Solids to mark the basic size and shape of the buildings, modeling my own models as well as working with the others that felt like helping me.... But, now, I can honestly say that I am 100% sick of Which has turned this "fun" project of mine into something that causes me more stress than my job. At work if I make mistakes, people die. Simple as that. So I check, recheck, and check again to make sure that my work is nothing but accurate. And, this "was" a way to get away from that for a couple hours a night. You people are unbelievable. I was having a good time with my project, when honestly, who really gives a damn if I finish it or not! There are a number of people who have told be they would be more than happy to help with maybe one or two models...which is more than I could really expect from anyone. And, each of those people said generally the same thing. That they would enjoy modeling "X" vehicle because they liked that vehicle. Or would even ask me if I needed "Y" vehicle because they wanted to do one of those anyway...which of course was fine. So, it isn't like I was forcing anyone to help. There are just nice people in this world who actually feel good about being helpful. Myself included. I enjoy being able to help other people out. But, those of you who see one negitive, off topic post about something....decide it's a free for all to hijack this persons thread in that name of free rant to someone who tehy don't even know.

So, I am no longer going to be posting in this thread. I will head over to "X" forums where I have had nothing but good responses from people. And, honestly, by posting these negitive "your in over head" comments, do you really think your helping me in some way. And, if so, thanks for your concern. But, I am a fairly intelligent person that is more than capable of understanding what it is that I'm doing. And, yes, iSOBigD, I am an amateur. Who gives a good God damn! It's fun, I'm learning as I go, and whether I ever finish this project or not...I am just having a good time. So F U! I don't need your Fing advice, I am more than capable of thinking for myself...And, if you have anything else to say...say it somewhere else!

As for those of you who have been helping out with models...I'll send you a PM with the link to my other threads so that you may keep up with the progress and continue to help.

As for the rest of you. I have never been more dissatisfied with a forum community in my life. ...Admins need to pay closer attention to off topic posts...especially when the poster of the thread has repediatly asked.

01 January 2008, 02:14 AM
You know what dude, you've been pretty immature about handling constructive criticism. Your list was ridiculous to begin with and people with experience and knowledge offered you some damn good suggestions to which your reply was I don't give a damn.

If people want to model something with no payoff then they can model their own stuff by themselves. The idea of joining of a mod is collaborating with other talented people to accomplish something thats playable and cool, but by being admittedly too ambitious you don't give yourself or anyone an opportunity to do it in a way that makes sense and now you want to cry about too much stress because you've received one too many good suggestions in a row?

Looking at your posting history it's not like you've ever contributed anything to this community anyway, and if your idea of a good forum is one that kisses your ass and tells you your ideas are wonderful when they aren't necessarily so, then go there and remain an amateur.

01 January 2008, 05:43 AM
I've only really skimmed the topic, much of it is the same story I've read hundreds of times before...and many others have replied saying exactly what I would on that subject.

What I would like to add is that your unit list isn't ambitious, its batshit ****ing insane...and still would be even if it was half the size.

Right now I'm running a mod team for an RTS, its the most ambitious one I've ever done...we have over 80 models done so far (of the 100 needed). That was over the course of nearly a year so far, having a half dozen experienced and hardworking modelers on the team. Again, this is an RTS...not an FPS. Our models take far, far, far less time to do.

I'm going to be a dick, but if you heed my advise you will thank me later.

Scrap your mod.

Join a promising mod team, help it out for 6 months.

Re-visit your plan.

01 January 2008, 08:49 AM
Did he make that poll or was it the work of a champion mod?

Either way the "EA should hire you!!!" option is hilarious.

01 January 2008, 04:33 PM
I have to agree with the OP. He posted asking if anyone would be interested in helping him out with a mod, and gave a list of models that he would like to include - if anyone wanted to model them.

What he got was 2 pages of you can't do this you're wasting everyones time. People like to model, that is the point of it in this case, he enjoys working on his project, how is that a waste of time if you get enjoyment out of it. He clearly stated he didn't want to hear anymore opinions of how he was all wrong and blah blah blah - but no, people had to insist on posting to piss on his dream.

Fair enough if you think his goal is completely unattainable, but he said he wasn't bothered, he was having fun working on it anyway. But still, people posted being negative. Why at that point couldn't people just not post, like he asked, or post saying "I think it's unrealistic, but good luck anyway."

I have a million more things to say but like the OP, I think I'm sick of cgsociety too - this thread anyway.

01 January 2008, 05:05 PM
oops, posted in wrong thread. sry