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03 March 2003, 12:43 AM
There is a certain person. . . who runs a certain 3D software company that is really really REALLY upset about how the Animation Master section of CGTalk is being run. He is considering this place the "Billy Eggington's Personal Vendetta Against Animation:Master" forum.

Please know that I am not doing this for some kind of personal ego trip. . . or to try and bring down Hash Inc. This is a forum where we discuss Animation Master. A very powerful 3D animation package that has its strengths AND weaknesses. The "official" AM list does not allow for people do anything but sing its praises. I feel that that is sick and wrong so I am happy to give up some of my time to help moderate here. That is my whole motivation.

If there are people that feel that the open discussion of their product is the thing that is hurting their sales. . .

Well. . . I don't even know what to say to that.

Its pretty messed up though. . .

03 March 2003, 02:42 AM
I dont think there is any bad will on your end - but what I do get from this forum is a underlying anger to Hash - right or wrong. For every nice thing there is 3 bad. Sure Hash has made mistakes but what 3d company hasnt? I read some of the posts at the LW-Max and C4d and I dont get the same sense of anger or put downs. There are the wacky posts but hey - arent 3d artists wacky! :>

My $1.02


My Fault
03 March 2003, 03:49 AM
Don't sweat it Billy. While I do think you can occasionally come off as a, hmmm, what's the word I'm looking for... let's say a very passionate individual (I thought blowhard might seem rude :p ) it's pretty obvious your doing this to help out. I'm sure at some point they'll come around and realize this too.

For the time being we at least get two badass moderators, who from what I have heard would kick most of our sorry butts in in Battlefield 1942 :thumbsup:

03 March 2003, 05:53 AM
Originally posted by My Fault

For the time being we at least get two badass moderators, who from what I have heard would kick most of our sorry butts in in Battlefield 1942 :thumbsup:

remember, you also have the summary knowlege of A:M and _all_ of it's quirks and advantages within these two moderators.

if you were thinking about it, chances are, we've tried it at some point.

despite the jerk-like behaviour (myself especially) exhuded in past rants, we also know the software and it's limitations inside and out.

Wegg and Balistic are doing a great job as far as I'm concerned. :airguitar

My Fault
03 March 2003, 05:56 AM
Yeah, all kidding aside, you guys are doing a helluva job! :beer:

03 March 2003, 12:49 PM
This forum has been a breath of fresh air. Please keep going Billy and Brian.:thumbsup:

As an edit and after-thought - isn't it better to know the good and bad before you hand hard earned money over? If I was buying from nothing but positive review that glossed over any problems (I'm thinking 9xx up) I'd be a whole lot more annoyed and ticked off. And if my business livlihood depended upon the purchase...

03 March 2003, 01:19 PM
Hi guys... this is an interesting section to say the least.
I agree that there is an underlying angst towards hash in this forum, but it is not without cuase.
The reason, in my opinion, why people get frustrated with Hash is because it is missing it's self created potential.
It is sooooo close to being the best tool for character animtion that it is just absolutely madening to see it shoot it
self in the foot with bugs/glitches and shortcomings in other areas.
I've said this before and I'll repeat it again... When hash got to 8.5p+, they had the base for everything they needed.
At that point they should have just concentrated on upping the speed/quality of the render and really gone
after dynamic simulations.
But what did they do? They redid the interface. I could just cry.
But whatever, I'm still using the software and don't imagine it will ever fall out of my toolbox.
Mike Fitz

03 March 2003, 01:48 PM
I think the nature of this forum has changed somewhat. It started out as a disgruntled AM users forum, but seems to be slowly developing into an alternative to the list with helpfull hints and wip and stuff...except here you can point out other tools and complain about bugs. I think that's great.

What would be even greater (no offense to the great people who have set up this forum) though is a dedicated AM forum with different catagories. Anyone know how much job it is to run a forum like that (how much work, bandwidth, server load etc.)?


03 March 2003, 03:20 PM
I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, Wegg. From my perspective you two have been very honest and upfront about A:M and Hash - not malicious or vindictive. There have been one or two posts that might be considered unfounded anger, but I think you are entitled to vent a little as well as us.

Martin has never allowed honest, open communication on the list - instead of pointing fingers he should become active here work *with* the community. It's very easy to throw blame down from his ivory tower, it's a very different thing to stand among the soldiers and accept that he may get a bruise or two.

Martin's ego has always been his worst trait - he needs to lighten up a bit. Many of us are disastisifed with A:M and hoping it becomes better - that doesn't mean we harbor vendettas or hatred towards Hash. Martin should face the criticism, embrace the disgruntled users and keep chugging along.

This forum is, withotu question, the best thing that has happened to A:M in a long time. Talented users sharing open discussion in a heavily trafficed forum. It's like dropping A:M under a microscope and it has been very effective in getting v10 "fixed" and getting both new and old users some great tips and information.

As a bit of a tangent I have to add - I think it's more of the fact that Martin expected this forum to fade away into oblivion like previous Hash forums. He didn't give us a second thought until it became obvious that this group is active and growing. Now he is trying to find other ways to "shut off the noise." Hash will never sponsor an open forum like this because Martin has trouble accepting any kind of realistic, negative feedback.

03 March 2003, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by ragtag
What would be even greater (no offense to the great people who have set up this forum) though is a dedicated AM forum with different catagories. Anyone know how much job it is to run a forum like that (how much work, bandwidth, server load etc.)?


You can currently use something similar to what you're suggesting at

There's a forum with news, articles/tutorials, animation master and general chit/chat areas, as well as a gallery which you can use for free which gives a registered user up to 2MB of space for images/video (if you have a larger video, send an email asking about posting it).

Suggestions for other forum topics will also be considered.

03 March 2003, 05:06 PM
sorry to hear that, wegg.

I think this forum has been VERY helpful to people who use AM. At first it was a little bit of a bitch session, but now we have a good base and I really believe that the people in this forum are helping define and defend the future of one of the best 3D animation packages I've ever used.

Maybe this person missed all the good things we say about the program.

Would this person rather have the blind devotion of the Poser community (sorry Poser people) or people who love the software but continually push it to be better?

Personally, I'd love to see the programmers of AM hang out here, share ideas even if they don't get implemented, it'd still be cool to hear their thoughts.

Most of us hear have been using AM for quite some time, and the AM list is kinda for entry level people in my opinion, where as this is definately the next level up.

let's keep going!

- pjc

03 March 2003, 05:15 PM
Personally, I'd love to see the programmers of AM hang out here

Sign of maturity.

The XSI forum is moderated by Ed Harris (almost godlike knowledge of XSI) and Newtek Lightwave staff regularly post on the LW forum.

03 March 2003, 07:01 PM
I normally just read messages here but I am going to chip in my 2 cents worth on this one.

You guys are doing a good job moderating these groups. Wegg and Balistic, I have long admired your work and appreciate the time you are willing to spend helping others who are learning, such as myself.

These discussion groups were born out of frustration with Hash, but they are maturing into useful discussion. Being born of discontent naturally led to a define air of discontent at first, but that seems to be changing. Hopefully, it will continue to do so. All one has to do is look at the sticky topics at the start, they are all positive topics.

I do have a message for Hash though:(if you are reading)

AM is incredibly powerful. When I started in 3D a few years ago, AM seemed to provide the most in terms of features, power and usability at an affordable price. I was a happy camper. The comments on this newsgroup are correct though. AM is unstable. "Advanced" features do not work well. Creases are problematic. Rendering is slow. I wish the interface had not been changed.

What bothers me the most though is the attitude and words that have come from Hash themselves. An attitude that was well portrayed in comments directly from Hash like "the right to complain at us is worth the $100 upgrade price", using totally inappropriate language on the official Hash email list (that I certainly would not want my children to read) and expecting AM users to do the testing that Hash should be doing themselves. Even the tone of Martin's Minutes has changed. The really old ones talk about "changing the 3D world", bringing out great product. The new ones, well, too much bashing other companies for my liking.

I suppose I am a contributor to what appears to be a bit of a sales problem at Hash in that I have not upgraded. I continue to use my old version AM on my projects and will enjoy very much doing so as I love to animate, it is my stress relief in life, and my old version at home works better than the newer versions at work. I am, however, hesitant to spend my hard earned money on something that may not do as advertised.

These are issues that only Hash can address.

To end on a positive note:

Moderators Wegg and Balistic, and the many other contributers to this community: I appreciate your time, effort and willingness to share your expertise and rub shoulders with those of us who are just starting out.

BTW: Really nice job on the dinosaurs / critter in the air conditioning and being taken for a walk. My children want to know if the dinosaur that is being taken for a walk has a name, and which pet store you got him from. :)

Have a good day.

Nicholas Crosby

03 March 2003, 10:11 PM
Maybe this "certain person" would be happy to know that it was the comments on this forum about the increased stability of v10 and a genuine attempt by Hash to correct some renderer problems in v10.5 that convinced me to place an order for, not one, but two, upgrades to v10 yesterday. One for me, one for the programmer I'm working with. (Well, that and Art Walesek's most excellent work on an A:M to Genesis3D exporter that, unfortunately, won't work with v 8.5 due to limitations of the old SDK ;) )

As for the A:M list...I'll never go back there. All the people, who's knowledge, expertise, and opinions I value (Billy, Brian, Joe, Yves, Pat Clark, Kevin S., Art W., etc), are HERE now and, for the most part, are no longer available for comment on the Hash list.

03 March 2003, 03:50 AM
I was also thinking about upgrading my copy of A:M again, because of things said in this forum. Well, until I had the cash that is, but I guess Hash just loves shooting itself in the foot regularly eh? I cannot stand the mailing list's attitude, and I find this forum a breath of fresh air. When Martin replied on the AM list and called his own users "momos" (or was it mofo's, whatever it was) and other such nonsense, it showed a total lack of respect; which A:M has always struggled in getting (gee, I wonder why).

Does Hash want the mods to delete all the bad posts and BAN the people who posted? No talking of bugs either? Sorry, but the lack of being able to express oneself freely is the reason this forum was born (or so I believe). I also think it's one of A:M's greatest assets to be featured here.

This forum is not hurting AM's sales - Hash is hurting A:M sales. If this forum were not here, you better believe it would exist somewhere else. A LOT of people are REALLY REALLY upset at how the AM LIST is run.

Wegg and Balistic do a GREAT job moderating this forum. I have seen a lot of posts where they take great care to be objective; but of course the software's creators are biased and blind when someone says their baby is ugly lookin sometimes.

Nothing said on this forum swayed me in either direction, it was the comments *directly* from Hash itself that turned me away from A:M. Great Job PR department. Oh I forgot, word of mouth is the PR... For some reason, "Don't bite the hand that feeds you" comes to mind.

Keep up the great work Wegg and Ballistic, and everyone else for that matter. I look forward to the honest and constructive criticism available here. See you in cyberspace, man!

03 March 2003, 06:16 AM
You know I dropped out of the list at the beginning of the year because of another rash of bannings. The list has the feeling of masters beating the hands off the fence and I feel soiled by being on it. Just not any fun. That is why I started 3d. Becuase I enjoy it. Not to be told to shut up and take it.

i'll stop here before I really start to rant.

Here I can read the rants or read the techniques, my choice. That is the whole point of a Forum you download only what you want to read. ranters can rant, artists can err.. art and I can take the occasional look at some nice work coming out of the people who are still using the software.

As for the software. I stopped upgrading. When I got to 9 and 9.5 these updates had cause so much damage to my files that I gave up. I recently exported my models using 8.5 so that I can rebuild them in LW. They lost a beta-tester..err I mean...customer. Still don't know which I am.

Well at least until I hear some good or until 2004 when I'll look back in on them to see if the software situation is any better there. Hell I got a net render dongle I'm not giving up completely

This is a great resource! I think you are doing a fine job running this forum. Mr nameless 3d corporate guy will just have to accept that people will not be beaten down and that he does not have absolute control over us. Wonder if he realizes that A:M is just a piece of software, a tool. and like any tool it can be replaced.

my random thoughts on all of this,


Kevin Sanderson
03 March 2003, 01:42 PM
Time may heal all least I hope so.

Jay, glad to see you still have the Render Time page still up on your updated website. I always found it to be a good reference.


03 March 2003, 03:54 PM
:beer: woud love to love every source we got

can't get enough info relatin a:m & animation

this forum rocks, but yes me's (still) on the animaster-list

that "either-you're-with-us-or-you're-against-us"-attitude (lately)
gives me monster-headaches, it's such a waste of energy & time (imho)

03 March 2003, 02:33 AM
There is a certain person. . . who runs a certain 3D software company that is really really REALLY upset about how the Animation Master section of CGTalk is being run. He is considering this place the "Billy Eggington's Personal Vendetta Against Animation:Master" forum.

Tough titty said the kitty. CGtalk is an amazingly active, varied and professional forum from what I've seen, and the Hash mailing list "Rah rah" attitude just wouldn't fly here. I'd call it an achievement to have an animation master section at this site, and a terrible omission not having one.

Like I said before, the whole "human" angle of Hash, as far as I'm concerned, has backfired for them in a big way - I'm not interested in their feelings, their new dog or if Grandma Hash is feeling poorly. I bought a product from them, which I like. They want me to upgrade but my main reason to do so, i.e. simpathy for them has been eroded by their attitude. IF I'm convinced an upgrade will be to my advantage I will pay for it. Tantrums will not improve this eventuallity.

That said Billy, if you came accross this knowledge through a public pronunciamiento from said 3D mogul, well and good, but if you heard about it from private sources I don't think we need to know - I'm sure you have plenty of moral support from the folks you deathmatch with and there's no need to stir the shit any further here.

I for one am going to pretend that I was given this software by wise and kindly alien beings from an alternate dimension, and live in hope that someday, when I least expect it, they will return.

03 March 2003, 05:57 PM
Billy Billy Billy,

Forget what that one person said about this list or anything else for that matter. Hash made thier problems and if they fix them they will be thanking people for this forum.

Tha best thing hash could do is just work on fixing the problems and stop treating the users like hash is doing them a favor, its the other way around and I think hash is starting to understand the customer company relationship.

Now I have not been on the list since the mass banning but I have talked with steve and have read what hash has been doing and I'm waiting to see what happenes before I start to tell people to go buy AM again or tell them to forget it. I was pretty vocal on this list when it started and that is all because of the way hash treated me and a lot of others. Now they have made some moves to improve on this and I hope they keep working on the improvments.

I hope this list is hear to stay it is a way for us to help keep hash on the right track. If the people in hash would take part more in this kind of forum like they use to this whole thing might not have happened.

Anyway lets hope hash keeps working on improving AM.

03 March 2003, 06:05 PM
maybe all I can say is - if things where so wonderful and rosy in AMList-land we wouldn't be here would we?

It's no good complaining about Billy - Commercial History is littered with the corpses of companies that ignored their clients.

I don't wish failure on AM, if they had engaged with us we'd probably still be on the list. The certain person certainly has the power to re-engage with us all. Some of this is up to him I think:love: :love:

03 March 2003, 08:19 PM
This forum is the best thing that could happen for A:M. If we didn't have a place to talk openly, I expect a lot of us would have moved on. How more dedicated can you get to a product than to form a group to help solve the products problems. I also really apreciate the time Wegg and Brain have put into not only moderating, but help us by freely giving us their years of knowledge. I don't expect Hash to change the way it sees the world, but we are beyond that here. I supose if Hash is still whining about this forum, then we must have the ability to get their attention, and maybe we can have some influence.

Keep up the great work guys, I have no interest in going back to the list.

Cheers, Graham

03 March 2003, 01:29 AM
Keep up the good work Wegg, i've found this forum to be way more interesting than the AM list, Hash should learn from the opinions expressed here - not seek to supress them (not that it could). :applause:

03 March 2003, 03:12 AM
PS, way to go Hash for publicly confirming your supressive attitude by trying to pressure the mod of this public forum to tow the Hash line. How many feet can you fit in your mouth anyway?

Cheers, Graham

My Fault
03 March 2003, 03:24 AM
Originally posted by Graham Clark
PS, way to go Hash for publicly confirming your supressive attitude by trying to pressure the mod of this public forum to tow the Hash line. How many feet can you fit in your mouth anyway?

Cheers, Graham

So where in Billy's statement did it say he needed to toe the Hash line? And who in their right mind would think you could get Billy to do anything he doesn't want to do? I know why some at Hash feel the way they do about Billy, though I don't necessarily agree. Can't we offer our support to the Eggster without ripping on Hash?

Maybe Graham just needs a beer :beer:

03 March 2003, 03:59 AM
Just brought back a few memories, that's all. I suppose I was reading between the lines, but I expect that Mr. Hash said more than just how upset he was.

I could use a beer actually. :beer:

Cheers, Graham

My Fault
03 March 2003, 04:09 AM
I figure we just need to keep the guys at Hash so busy coding in new features/fixes/stability that they won't have time to be unnecessarily upset! ;)

and here's another beer :beer: I'm putting them on Billy's tab :p

03 March 2003, 05:40 PM
Can't think of much to say that hasn't been said already. While its early days were a little too full of bitterness for my taste, this forum has become a great place to hang out.

Kudos to Billy and Brian for all you guys do for this place!

Kudos to all the A:M users contributing here...old, new, and in-between!

And yes, kudos to Hash for a slick little piece o' software that lets me have some fun once in a while!


04 April 2003, 11:16 PM
Well I have to say in the short time I've been visiting this forum, it's been more educational, supportive and inspirational than the year or so I was on the official Mailing List. Steve did me a great service kicking me off it! :)
That's not to say a ML doesn't have value if run properly. When will Hash learn that all users of all software "complain"? It's called *Feedback*. Some companies have seperate lines of comunication just to learn and progress from this phenonomen. It's sad to see....AM could be so much more than it is now. Just imagine that! :)
At the end of the day, Billy, this froum shouldn't reduce sales. It's amongst the forums of all the other major 3d software and probably catches the eye of more potential users. All publicity is good. If there are unwanted complaints, instead of trying to shut them up Hash should try to address them....a little official communication on this forum every now and then may even improve matters. No, Billy you are doing AM a great service by keeping the flag flying amongst the high flyers. We appreciate it and please don't give up.

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