View Full Version : The Journey Begins Challenge (3D) Entry: Christoffer Andersen

03 March 2006, 02:07 PM
Christoffer Andersen is entered in the "The Journey Begins Challenge" update: View Challenge Page (

Latest Update: Final Image: FInal Final (

03 March 2006, 03:17 PM (

So they are all packed and ready to go.
The president of the cirkus is leading on, to the annual tour across the land.

Unfortunatly my drawing skills are very bad, so I have to block out the scene with primitives.

Hope you like the idea

03 March 2006, 07:38 PM
render on duuude :applause:

03 March 2006, 07:41 PM
Hey whatever works dude,:) and good luck!

03 March 2006, 11:26 AM
Yo Doffer,

nice to see that you are in this contest. Your concept looks good so far but i would be carefull with the "Up-Close" angle of your sketch. You need to fill out the picture with alot of small objects to make it catchy.

Maybe a more grand picture with a Widescreen resolution and some background to point out how far they have travelled with this circus.

Waiting for updates...

Held og lykke til dig...

03 March 2006, 11:45 AM
Hehe... Will do ;)

@Vedic Kings:
Thanks :)

Thanks for the suggestions.
I got a little idea today. I was thinking it could be cool, if all the animals in the carriage were escaping out of the cages, while the guy in front (little knowing) thinks he is ready to go.
That could put some attention to the left side which is very empty.

That would give the image two meanings, since the journey starts for the animals too :)

03 March 2006, 08:25 PM
I think your new idea sounds cool but it also sounds like a lot of work :) Anyway good luck.

03 March 2006, 07:15 PM (

Okay, started on the modelling.
Here is one of the circus wagons.
Sorry about the bad render. It's a bit difficult to see the details.

I put a biped in for size reference. The biped is 185 cm (don't know how many feet that is but it's avarage male height).

@Deje: Yeah I know. I'm not making it easyer on myself but what would be the fun of that? :D

03 March 2006, 09:29 PM
Seems all fine!...The only thing I miss, is to see where they are heading. I mean, right now you see where they are comming from, which isnt as interesting as the other. But maybe it will be fine, need a little more to fully be able to comment with any interesting words at all...;)

Hyg dig...:D

03 March 2006, 08:32 PM (

Started working on the artists wagon.
I've also played with some texture, to get a feeling of the colors and style.
It still needs some work though.

Fire at will...

@Kragh: Yeah, I am aware of that and it drives me kinda crazy.
Not sure whether I'll do anything about it, since I would have to change the whole concept.
Maybe if I get a good idea I will.

But thanks for the reminder :)

03 March 2006, 03:08 PM
I like your concept, and I think your new idea could give it the extra egde. You say that the picture should illustrate that they are leaving, but from what, and thats where you migth give it a thought... maybe they where leaving from their latest job (the circus in the background closing up) just an idea....

Good luck with your entry buy the way

03 March 2006, 03:51 PM
Your wagons got very sharp edges at the wood. Is it a sign on the front or what is it?

But keep em comming :applause:

03 March 2006, 04:06 PM
Hej Doffer.

Ih, hvor hyggeligt!:thumbsup:

Remember to upload your images under modeling or sketch or what ever it is, you can post as many images as you like,.

Looks promising so far.

03 March 2006, 09:09 PM (

A lineup of the face in different stages durring its creation.
Obviously it isn't finished yet, but it gives a glimpse of the style.
For the hair I'm thinking of some wild grey "einstein" kinda hair.

@Benzon: Thanks :)
I like your idea. I will definatly give it a lot of thoughts.
I hate when things aren't clear in my head before I start. I have everything settled down in my head, besides this.

@Deje: Yeah it's supposed to be a sign. Either a number or something like that. So the people can find the right wagon.

@Empire: It is really nice with all the 3dmaxer's in here.
And thanks, I will update it a little more.
I just wan't it to look okay before posting it in here :)

03 March 2006, 09:25 PM
Great stuff, love the face!

03 March 2006, 12:18 AM
Hi, doffer!

The head looks ok, I think. But it still needs some work. Especially the eyes could use some more character. Also, you should add some new teeth with more round edges.

Keep it up...

03 March 2006, 09:57 AM
@Vedic Kings:
Thanks a lot :)

@Martin: Yeah, it really need some touch-up.
I'll try work on the eyes.
The teeth are just boxes. They will of course be shaped manually.

03 March 2006, 06:30 PM (

Added some details around the eyes, and added ears to.
Still needs a lot of work around the mouth region.

What do you think?

03 March 2006, 07:03 PM


oh MAN.....this dude is so cool.
teeth are very well placed....very nicely done.
will definately be following

btw....could you post the eye's so cool.

03 March 2006, 10:41 PM
Thanks. Glad you like it :)

Can't really take credit for the eye texture.
It's a great plugin called SimbiontMAX.
If you don't know it, try it out. It rocks!
I hope it's okay to use a plugin like that.

03 March 2006, 09:12 PM
thanx doffer, waiting for more

03 March 2006, 12:49 PM
Getting better, doffer... Try work a little bit more with the corners of the mouth and lips. Also the eyes could use some attention. keep modeling...

03 March 2006, 04:28 PM (

I know the face isn't perfect yet, but I really need to move on so the project keeps some sort of flow.
I will come back and make chances in the head if needed.
Maybe I should say, that the legs and feet havn't been working on much.
Mostly torsoe and arms.

@Martin: Thanks for the comments.
I know there are issues with the head and I'm really glad you are taking the time and pointing them out to me, but as I said, I really need to make some progress in this project :)

03 March 2006, 09:42 PM (

Just a little update before I go to bed.
What do you think?

03 March 2006, 02:42 PM
Nice character, Dofmaster. I would suggest to push the eye-socket a little more into the scull, would give him more depth in the face. Right now the eyes lies almost planar with the cheeks.

But else I think hes great;)

03 March 2006, 01:25 AM
I agree with Kragh. Also the legs / body connection around the thighs needs refinement. You should also work with the chest part as well. Keep working.

03 March 2006, 07:41 AM
Thank you :)
I'll try to move them inwards. I think you right, that i'll give some more depth.

Thank you too :)
I'll work on the body more, and post some updates.

03 March 2006, 07:48 AM
Nice model, but yes it needs a bit more work.

Anyway, are you inspiret by Terkel in trouble (terkel i knibe), because it looks a bit like stuard stardust?

Why did you chance the teeths? i liked them better before, when they was sitting a bit random, i think i gave a scary look.

Keep it up.

03 March 2006, 10:40 AM
Yeah a little bit.
Not stewart especially but I did indeed looked at Terkel I Knibe for inspiration.
But now you mention it, I can see it look a bit like Stewart.

For those of you who are not familiar with "Terkel I Knibe", here is a link:
And here is a picture of Stewart Stardust (the one to left):

03 March 2006, 09:07 PM (

Time for update...
Started on the front wagon, where the main character is going to sit.
The leather cloth on the top is a test.
I think I'm gonna change it to a tiny wood roof instead.

03 March 2006, 10:06 PM
You're right about the cloth. It seems out of place to me. It would make more sense to place it on the bench.

03 March 2006, 10:53 AM
Looks great so far, and I like the dirtyness of the cloth material. The wagon needs to be just as dirty...;)

03 March 2006, 11:22 AM (

Started on some animal modelling.
I've modelled a monkey, and are now working on a zebra.
I'll show the monkey later.

03 March 2006, 11:24 AM
@Martin: You're right. I've moved the vcloth on to the bench.

@Kragh: Thanks. I have textured the wagon, and it will be dirty :)

03 March 2006, 11:52 AM
I think the legs could use some attention. Especially the connecting parts between body and legs. Also the front legs seem too linear.

03 March 2006, 08:34 AM (

I now got the base model done, and I can now focus on defining muscles and refineing the model.

Thank you Martin. I'll work on the shapes :)

03 March 2006, 12:37 PM
Looking better now. Remember to add some character to the animal. It should look as wacky as the man does.

03 March 2006, 11:18 PM (

I know I'm jumping back and forth different objects in my scene, but I just felt like finishing up the main character. I also have to rig him and stuff, so it's about time I get him ready for texture.
I finally got the hand done.

@Martin: Thank you again :)
I'll see f I get time to give the Zebra some charactaristics tomorrow.
You're right that is needed.
Also some more muscle defining. It's too flowing and smooth as it is now.

03 March 2006, 12:55 PM
Maybe you should add some additional details to the character. Like a belt or rope for the pants. And maybe some kind of necklace or talisman.

03 March 2006, 01:18 PM (

Worked some more on the zebra.
It still needs some more work though.

Any coments?

@Martin: Thank you for some great ideas.
I'll work on that.

03 March 2006, 01:42 AM
Comments? Well, certainty! :wip:

The zebra is definitely getting better. But it still needs some work. You should add some big eye balls and some holes in the muzzle (nose). Also the under part of the mouth looks strange to me. Overall you should add some more details to get more characteristics.

03 March 2006, 07:51 AM (

I think this will be the last zebra update. I'm pretty happy with the result, and there won't be any closeups in the final scene.
The next step will be unwrapping.
Thanks for the suggestions so far...

03 March 2006, 09:12 AM (

Unwrapped the zebra.
I'm not very much into this part of production, so I'm sure it could be better, although I believe I could draw a okay texture on this.

Comments are very welcome...

03 March 2006, 12:40 PM
You could draw a texture on that unwrap. But I would make further adjustments for sure. That small part down at the buttom looks strange.

03 March 2006, 02:18 PM
Yeah, that small part is strange.

It's the ear and inside the mouth, which I'm going to make black, and it was a bitch to unwrap, so I didn't :shrug:

04 April 2006, 02:54 PM (

Started on the texture job.
Obviously it needs some vital things to be a zebra, but that's to come.
I played around with the fur/skin look, and wouldn't use Hair/Fur because it will be in the background, and I therfor think it will be overkill...

I did some changes on the uvw, so it is a bit easyer to draw texture on it.

04 April 2006, 12:17 PM
A zebra without teeth?

04 April 2006, 02:07 PM
The texture looks fine, i like the noise a lot :drool:

Keep it up.

04 April 2006, 10:20 AM
Teeth will come :)

The noise is the fur-brush from photoshop, used as bump.

04 April 2006, 03:30 PM (

Started on the stripes.
There will be a lot of color-cleanup later on, but right now I'm focusing on getting the pattern correct from the torsoe, to the head and the legs

... thank you photoshop for having Clone stamp tool :)

04 April 2006, 07:47 PM
The texture is looking really nice so far but I dont really like the form of the legs so much.
It's hard to explain excactly what it is but the look a little too simple in the form IMO.
Looking forward to seeing more.

04 April 2006, 07:20 PM (

Got the legs finished.
Next will be the face, and then get the bump layer fixed.

With 48 days to go, and a to-do list so long that you won't believe it, I think I'm gonna have to work at night too.

04 April 2006, 08:39 PM
You should make a better flow and the end of the feet. maybe some fur over those, whats its called? hooves? Anyway i hope you get the point, it looks great so far.

04 April 2006, 08:04 AM
I think it's called hooves, and you're right.
It needs a smoother transition.
Thanks :)

04 April 2006, 11:20 AM
The stripes pattern looks basically ok. But don't you think the black stripes are too wide in some places?

04 April 2006, 10:23 PM
Yeah that's maybe right.
I drew the stripes upon a real image though (the same which I used as modeling reference), so it should be kinda true to nature :)

I consider the zebra as finished.
I'll post a picture of it tommorrow (if I remember).
I know it's not perfect, but with the time frame in mind, and all the work which still has to be done, I need to move on.

I guess I can update you with how it's going with the image...

The artist wagon as done.
The different wagons need some variation in color but that should be all.

The zebra is done. Needs some kind of rig though.

The animals wagons are beeing worked on, but only the zebra's wagon is almost done.

Started on a giraf.

Almost modelled a monkey. Only need to model its feet.

Riged the main character. Still needs a lot of envelope adjustments.
Also need to work with his clothes and make his hair.
He also need to be unwrapped and textured.

The front wagon where the character is going to sit, is almost done.
Just need some fine tuneing.

What I haven't looked at at all (which is very bad) is the environment. I have a clue about how it could look, but it very loose and in my head. Nothing on eighter computer nor paper yet.

Well... a little update :)

04 April 2006, 05:01 PM (

A little textureing update.
I got to make him some sandals and I'm also working on a necklace.
The west is supposed to be red leather, and the pants of linen.

04 April 2006, 05:41 PM (

Here are "all" the wagons together.
I still need to do the wagon for the monkeys and for a unknown animal.
The giraffe itself is underway, and just need some refining. I'll show you that later.
The three yellow wagons are for the artists. I should have showed the from the other side, which is where the door is.

04 April 2006, 07:04 PM
Great work on the wagons :) I really like that 'theme' color / pattern you've added to each wagon. That giraffe wagon is just priceless! You really got a sense of humor.

04 April 2006, 09:15 PM
Hehe... Thank you Martin.
I'm very glad you like it.

I'm still not capable of making photorealistic scenes, so I kinda have to go for the toony style.
But as long as it works then that's okay too.

04 April 2006, 04:01 PM (

Here is a little wip of the giraffe model. Don't mind the inside of the mouth. I havn't looked into that, and I'm not even sure it will be visible.
I've made the giraffe sad because he/she can't get out of the cage (that's the idea now at least).

Comments are welcome.

04 April 2006, 01:32 AM
Not a bad start there. But just like the zebra the legs look a bit too simple. They don't look 'animal' like, I think.

I really like the big jaw though :) Gives it great character :thumbsup:

04 April 2006, 06:37 PM
Thank you Martin.
I see what you mean, and I'll put some more work in the legs right away.

04 April 2006, 09:31 PM (

In this update I mostly focused on the front legs, and the I added ears.
I did a little touch-up on the back of the legs too, but it still needs a lot of work in that area.

The Hooves are not perfect either.

04 April 2006, 11:52 AM (

I kinda consider this the final modeling update unless somebody has something important to add.
I need to unwrap, texture and rig it, so I'm in kinda hurry.

04 April 2006, 03:06 PM
Hey really like the character of these models -- looking forward to seeing shading and their placement in an overall scene. good luck!

04 April 2006, 06:31 PM
A very nice Giraffe, i hope the texture will be as good, as the Zebra's. I can't wait to see the monkey :D keep it up.

04 April 2006, 07:23 PM
Getting much better :thumbsup: I still think the legs need some attention. At least the under leg part is too much linear, I think. But if you're in a hurry...

04 April 2006, 08:53 PM
Thank you :)

Thank you :)
The Monkey should be ready soon.

You are absolutely right, the legs could use some more attention.
I do believe though, that when you're gonna see the whole scene it would make a very little difference, compared to the time it will take to give it more detail.
I also kinda hope the texture will give it the extra lift.

04 April 2006, 01:45 PM (

Working on the texture.
I'm not really a "texture-guy", so it could (as always) be a lot better, but I think it'll work for now.

What do you guys think?

04 April 2006, 05:49 PM (

It's damn hard to get out of a wagon when you're 18 feet tall.
What do you think?

04 April 2006, 06:06 PM
A little cage for a big fellow, cool, the other characters look funny too!

04 April 2006, 12:40 PM
The texture is ok. Maybe the mouth part should be a bit darKer?

Poor giraffe...

04 April 2006, 02:09 PM
@Climax: Thanks :)

@Martin: Maybe. I'll try that and see how it looks.

04 April 2006, 02:23 PM

i like this way ... wanna see more ...more ...more

best luck..


04 April 2006, 10:30 AM
Thank you Splotch.

I'm glad you like it.
And the best of luck to you too.

04 April 2006, 07:02 PM (

Omg! Less than one month left. I'm gonna have to hurry up.

Here is what I consider the final character (unless you have something crucial of cause).
Next is to get him rigged and posed, then I can start build up the scene.

04 April 2006, 08:35 PM
Looks ok, he's a really nasty wagon driver. I hope he's not too evil, poor animals...

05 May 2006, 12:53 PM (

Decided to put the scene together (as much as possible).
The scene is kinda heavy (on my shitty computer at least), put with some patience and working in layers, it should be okay.
The rendertime is for now not very big. About 5 min. at a size on 1500*882.
Some wagons still needs to be done, but it should give a pretty good impression. The ground will be some kind of path, and in the background there will be a vague view a some kind of city.
The light is of cause very temporary, and no photoshop work has been done on it yet (besides the logo ind the left buttom).

@Martin: Hehe, yeah he's kind of a mean mofo, but so far no harm on the animals has been done. I'm watching him and he knows. :D

05 May 2006, 03:27 PM
nice modelling and texturing :thumbsup: i like the mouth of the giraffe, really cartoonish :)

05 May 2006, 09:21 PM
Thank you Joblh. I'm glad you like it :)

I think it's really motivating to get positive feedback from people I don't actually know (friends and family tends to say they like it, no matter what hehe)

05 May 2006, 10:26 PM
Well, I try to be so responsive as I can ;) ...

The overall setup is ok. But I think it's a shame that the animals are places so far in the background. The giraffe looks so funny :thumbsup: , poor thing... But on the other hand, you can't place everything in the foreground.

05 May 2006, 02:47 PM
Nice work, Maybe you could make a monkey sitting on one of the wagons in the front with a key, so it makes sence, because it is a bit weird that the cages just open's :) But keep it up.

05 May 2006, 04:43 PM
Well, I try to be so responsive as I can ;) ... And I appreciate the effort. I've thought about what you said, and switched the giraffe with the zebra.

That is indeed my plan. They're gonna be all over the place ;)

05 May 2006, 07:37 PM (

Started to place the monkeys.
I'm sorry I didn't show you the progress of the monkey, but it was very straight foreward and I wouldn't dwell on it.
The size of the animals here, is the actual size the are gonna occupy in the final image, so it should get you a good idea of the look.

I still need to place a few on the giraffes cage.

05 May 2006, 12:26 PM
Now that's just hilarious! :scream: Especially the monkey that rides the zebra. It's still hard to their faces though. But I guess you won't change the resolution?

05 May 2006, 05:40 PM
I don't think the resolution will be changed.
Max is already crashing when I try to render everything in one render, and the is without environment and main character, so 1500*882 is as big as I can go.

I'm glad you like the monkeys. They were quiet funny to pose in all sorts of positions.
Some of them weren't suitable for the internet (not this site at least :D).

05 May 2006, 08:09 PM (

It's all slowly coming together.
I've start working on the environment, and placing the last wagons in the scene.
As mentioned before, the scene got very heavy for me, and then i realised that I've used psd-files for texturing, so for example the zebra had a texture with a file size on about 50 mb.
I've converted all the psd textures into jpgs and it's so far working great. The scene is much easyer to work with, and a lot faster (or able to render actually), so that's a good thing.
The image you se here, is straight from the render (almost). Only the bagground, motionblur and a very little color change has been made.

Since this has been rendered, I've placed the last wagons (except the front wagon) in the scene. I've also made some more work on the environment.
Updates will follow as soon as possible.


05 May 2006, 12:00 PM
HAHAHA! yeah, psd's as textures are a pain in the a..

Now, the ground texture looks ok. But you should consider making some kind of path pattern. Also some stones or rocks could help. Are you planning doing some grass simulation?

05 May 2006, 02:52 PM (

Okay, how about this one.
I Made a path nad added grass.
Now I'll focus on getting the last things into the scene, so I can adjust what need to be adjusted.

05 May 2006, 08:41 PM
Nice update. Remember to add some distant fog and some few clouds. How about some rocks and stones?

05 May 2006, 03:53 PM
Thank you Martin... :)

Rock and stones would be nice. I'll look into that.
The sky definatly needs to be fixed.
I'm not that good at painting clouds, but I'll sure give it a shot.

Right now I struggle with pose of the character.
Rigging is not that easy afterall :rolleyes:

05 May 2006, 11:33 PM (

Main Character added.
I also tried to do some sky work, and some overall pp.
I'm pretty happy about it, but hey what do I know :D
Of couse he still needs hair.
I actually rendered the hair, but it didn't turn out as I thought, so I'll do it again another time.
The light on the character is not good, so I think I'll ahve to illuminate him seperatly.

05 May 2006, 01:14 AM
You definitely need to reconsider the lighting on the man. I also think he's too much out of focus. He's placed too much to the right in the frame.

The sky colors look fine :)

05 May 2006, 09:01 PM
Yeah, I've got to agree with Martin on the lighting.

Another thing. I think the colors on the wheels/wagons are a bit too saturated
in comparison to the ground. The textures (the dark strikes on the wagons wood) looks
too bumpy (too much contrasts) as well..

Otherwise - an interesting image ;)

05 May 2006, 10:48 PM
Oh! one other thing: You need to rotate the wheels in different angles. It looks very unnatural, when all wheels are rotated in same angle.

05 May 2006, 07:15 AM

Thank you. I'm working on the lightning right now.
It's just a bit tricky, becouse I wan't individual lightning on the character, but he still need to recieve shadows from the wagon he's sitting on.
About the wheels, I'll see if I get time to change it.


Thank you, Tommy.
I agree on the bump. It's too heavy.
About the saturation, I see what you're talking about, but I'm not sure whether I'm gonna change it.
But thank you :)

I hope to post an update soon.

05 May 2006, 11:09 AM
"About the wheels, I'll see if I get time to change it."? Come on... it's less than a minute. :wip:

05 May 2006, 01:07 PM (

I've changed the lightning on the character, and I think it looks much better.
Don't mind the hair, I'm thinking of a new hair cut.
Another thing that you can't see on this picture is, that I've moved the camera a bit to right, so the nose of the zebra to left, is now at the border of the image, and the character is a bit more to the middle.

@Martin: Hehe... okay, I'll do it then :)

05 May 2006, 10:00 PM (


The year is Well, they do not count years here since there hasnt been any occasion to start counting, but its indeed not the first year. Circus Magnificanto is packed and ready to set off. The artists are in the first two wagons. The next houses the different animals. Those who the circus has build their popularity upon. President Elmor is in the front, steering the carriage.
They set off to the annual tour across the land. Travelling from square to square, from town to town and wont be back until next fall.
They are indeed ready to go.

Meanwhile, all the animals, led on by the small monkeys, are setting off to their own adventure.
Packed with only loyalty and friendship they will have difficult times for sure, but the strength of such diverse group is not to underestimate.

Oh yeah, the journey has truly begun.

(Sorry about my bad english)

I know it's not perfect but I don't have time left the next 4-3 days, so I have to finish now.
(I still have to upload through FTP though)

It has truely been a pleasue, and something I will do next time such a challenge comes up.
I've learned a lot through the creation of this image. Compared to a lot you the other work I see in here, I know it's not much, but we all have to start somewhere.

Thanks a lot to all of you who helped me (especially Martin).
Jeg skylder dig meget :)

Well, I'll report in, when the final tiff is uploaded too.

Here is a link to a gif, showing the different rendered and color-layers used (10)

05 May 2006, 12:07 PM
Looking at your final I can't help notice a problem with your composition. I know it's probably too late now, but I just came to think about it. Anyway, maybe you can use it for later. Here goes:

You've placed too much attention on the wagon driver, and that's a mistake. A man driving a wagon is not interesting. The interesting part is the all the animals and what they are doing. If you turn the camera, so the animals become the centre of attention in the foreground, you would have a much better picture in my opinion. Furthermore you can present your brilliant idea and modeling with the giraffe much better. We don't need to see the driver that clearly, just place him in the background, so the viewers can see the circus is about to embark.

05 May 2006, 03:07 PM
Thank you. I see your point.
Would it help if i inverted the DoF, so the animals is clear, and the driver is blured?
I rendered a seperate z-depth version, so it's only a ctrl+i to invert...
- did you notice the wheels? :D

I also got some pointers of another guy, and if I get time, I will model the rope.
It should give a better result.

I hope it's okay to post a new final :)

05 May 2006, 12:01 AM
I don't think inverted DOF will help that much, but you can give it a try. Like I said, it's the camera angle that bothers me most. And that rope straight into the camera doesn't help either. You should at least lower it a bit. Sorry to criticize so much, but it's just a damn shame, that you didn't bring more attention to the giraffe, which is your finest hour.

Yes, I noticed the wheels. It didn't hurt that much, did it? :thumbsup:

And yes again, you can send a new final. I've just done that :)

05 May 2006, 11:12 AM (

How about it now.
I kinda like it this way, as I think the eyes stays on the animals, but I'm not sure whether I'm right or wrong.
I will have to revert the signs though.

05 May 2006, 12:28 PM (

Okay, did some minor changes, and here is the final image.
I'm not gonna change anything, since I don't have the time.
As I wrote to the last final, a bog thanks goes out to all of you (you know who you are ;))
Thank you for the "teamwork" Martin.
You really helped me a lot, with all the good advice. I followed some of it, and some I just overheard :D

The story is to read under the last final. I can write it here again, if needed...

Good luck everybody.

05 May 2006, 01:41 PM
He he, that's perfectly alright. Sometimes you just have to follow your own judgement. I do that myself sometimes.

CGTalk Moderation
05 May 2006, 01:41 PM
This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.