View Full Version : The Journey Begins Challenge (2D) Entry: Theresa Ryan

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04 April 2006, 01:15 PM
Wow been missing out on so much here lately...

I love how this is turning out, the characters look great and I think it's kinda cool how some characters in the bg seem to be looking at the viewer, don't know if that was intentional but it's a nice touch, it helps draw the viewer into the painting, kinda like standing in that crowd yourself.
I love the dramatic mood in the whole painting and I think your concept is one of the most original I've seen in the challenge.

04 April 2006, 02:12 PM
Looking good, Theresa.... Now you just have, like, 300 faces to paint in!
What are these people feeling about the journey? Are they excited? Scared? Are they heading for something or merely heading away from something? Your really early caravan sketch was one of a happy parting, but it doesn't look like you're shooting for the same thing any more: Gloomy clouds, everyone wearing black, the few defined faces having looks of concernation.

I love the woman turned towards us, the one with the big eyes. The eyes are too large and low to be proportionately correct, and i point that out in case perfect proportions was what you were aiming for. Me, I like it just how it is and hope other peoples' faces are also slightly exaggerated to emphasize their emotions. (which, knowing my work, stands to reason. :) )

The 2 people on the far right do not appear to be showing any motion whatsoever. If they're the largest heads in the painting, give 'em something to be doing and feeling!
Whatever emotions you want for the entire painting, these faces should be showing it more than any others.

But anyhow, it really is looking nice. Good luck going forwards. Catch you later...!


04 April 2006, 05:53 PM
Hi Theresa. That's a lotta faces :) Looks like you're all the way to the finishline with this. Seems details are all that's left... Checked out your gallery, you've got a pretty cool style when it comes to rendering your characters. Keep it up :thumbsup: This'll be a great addition to your collection. Will look out for this. C yah round.

04 April 2006, 06:12 PM
Hey paperclip, long time no see, first of all, I love how you dare to show a close view with so many people, love it, but whats going on in the background? I'm guessing their homes were destoryed, and their smog from a fire going up into the air? I cant wait to see the details your going to put into the background .

04 April 2006, 06:53 PM
Faces in the middle distance are excruciatingly difficult - a couple of pixels out and they look mutated; I don't envy your task. I like your characters so far, just wondering if the beardy guy on the right could be doing a bit more. I was thinking of what it would look like with the closest character facing the viewer, gesturing off into the distance, drawing you in. Probably crap, but that didn't stop me wondering. Look forward to seeing this one finished, not long now *

* white lie

04 April 2006, 06:59 PM
I like the people now, they are making progress. Yer man on the right needs a bit of a definite expression (he looks bored now). I like the girl with the big eyes, she's real Irish. I thought you wern't good at detailing, what you've go here looks good but what would I know, i'm a noob.


04 April 2006, 08:31 PM
not long now *

* white lie


I was all hopeful for a moment, there......

04 April 2006, 12:20 AM (

So, here's another update of the characters. I still don't like a lot of the characters, but I decided to just keep going until the entire picture is generally detailed, THEN make more changes. Right now it's really about tightening things up.

The guy on the far right is totally against the balance of nature. I'm going to ignore him for the time being. Try and rip your eyes away from him and look elsewhere...

Time for some replies:

Elrond: Oooh, great idea with the burning lamps! I'll add these in. Thanks!
Hungthai: thanks!
sacha: Happy easter to you too! Bunny's coming in the morning, you know!
Makaron: Thanks and what a cute easter emoticon...aww...
Rudeone: I really appreciate that, as I'm still learning and it's rather overwhelming in the presence of so many great people here who've been working for years... I'm just taking this fantastic opportunity to learn from them all, including yourself!
Mike: good point there and I've tried to make some more of them happier. I'm going to make the clouds less foreboding and give the whole piece some more of a adventurous slant, rather than a grim feel. Thanks for the heads up there.
ahbeejieh: Details? Details? That's the toughest part! Thanks for checking out my gallery..
Corey: When you see the whole painting, it makes more sense. There's a ship floating in the sky, but I like your idea of putting what they're going to flee away from in the background. I'll think about that once I fix up the painting some more.
Baron: shhh...I'm trying to convince my mind that it CAN be done! I thought about putting a gesturing person there, but thought the gesturing would be a bit too obvious?
ED-P: Ah you know I had to put one of our countrypeople in! :D

04 April 2006, 06:51 AM
Hey Theresa! If I have to paint 300 hundred faces, I think I'll collapse. hehe. Painting 300 hundred faces in less than 2 weeks is a feat! But luckily this challenge spans 3 months! So far, you are doing good on their expressions. I think I know how to help you fix the foreground guy at the very right. Make him darker and out of focus! Or change his pose: he could be resting his head on his hand in resignation or sorrow. Have some vairiety of expression for the same emotion will work well to make the crowd look interesting. The woman with a look of concern in the middle really has a good focus point, but she looks a little smiling like she has a hope for a better future. Not sure if that's what you intended.

Man, so many more faces to go. Keep going, Theresa!

04 April 2006, 01:25 PM
hi theresa,
i always have a tendency to make hard concepts for myself and sweat thinking "no i'll never finish that stuff" while working but at last i saw someone more crazy than me :)
thats a real huuuuge work but looking wonderful and great concept and i think you wont have any problems of finishing it.

there are so many faces so even that guy on the right didnt bother me.

04 April 2006, 07:07 PM
nice work Theresa And good Idea I like it . good luck for u :thumbsup:

04 April 2006, 07:25 PM
Nice expressions. Damn, you have nearly finished ;)

04 April 2006, 10:21 PM (

Sat down with a cup of coffee and told myself I would detail for a few hours and this is what I came up with. I flipped the image and I really think it reads better this way around. (From left to right and all that jazz.)

I also put some grass and started detailing the trees. I need to know just how detailed the faces in the background need to be- it's all ahead of me! I still haven't done much to the ship or the building yet, that's all to come! I'd like to know what you guys think of the colors being used here.

Now I'm off to treat myself with some Easter chocolate. :)

NOTE TO GLENN: This is the version I want to go with.

ramy badie
04 April 2006, 02:48 AM
Wow this is looking really great! :D Ok that said, I have two comments. First of all, the grass color looks too saturated or too green or something, I feel like it stands out too much, maybe go for a slightly bluer grass and a bit less saturated. The other thing is, am I seeing the same face around 15 times in the background? Whether I am or not, there are like 15 faces that look too bright in the background and they look exactly the same, maybe make then a little darker and less saturated so that they don't stand out so much. Ok other than that, this is looking awesome, I am really excited to see the completion of this one, hopefully you won't start doubting your idea at this stage like I did XD

04 April 2006, 08:09 AM
I guess it looks okay viewed from this angle, although I loved it better flipped, because it had some heroic and spectacular features. Now, the ship sails backwards compared with the logical reading direction of the eye (left to right), creating a claustophobic effect. When it was flipped it had an ascendant direction, giving it monumentality. Anyway, I like your idea and coloring. Hope I'll see a great work out of you! Good Luck!

04 April 2006, 09:11 AM
Hi Theresa, I'm afraid I've not followed your thread, and now that I see it I ask myself how can I have missed it, you have a fantastic and strong concept. I agree that maybe the former orientation was better, it makes the image to read clearer. You have a hard work detailing all the faces wish you all the luck and I'm looking forward to see it finished. :thumbsup:

04 April 2006, 10:20 AM
Ramy: Good suggestion. I put a hue/sat adjustment level with saturation turned down on top of the stack (as suggested by walrus in his entry) in order to check the values and they need a lot of work, especially in the bottom right (as it stands right now). I do need to desaturate that area a bit, thanks for the pointer! As for the faces, I did three and multiplied them, then changed most of them with a 1px brush, I guess I left some out. :blush:

Black hand: Does it not still 'ascend'? I was thinking the eye would follow the crowd up the stairs, from right to left. I might flip the ship though?

Ramixon: Nice to see a new face in here! Thanks for dropping by, it would appear that the other orientation seems more popular? I'll see what I can do with that.

04 April 2006, 10:50 AM
wow honey :) youre really going ahead of yoursefl with this one. im so sorry that i was so lazy posting on your thread, im such a bad person *scolds herself*

i would have been too lazy to do so much people and faces. the only thing is maybe you should give the faces of the front people some more remarkable highlights so that they really stick out more than those in the background. you know just some nice highlighting colour. that should give them a bit more saturated look to so that you have a gradient in your piece a bit. i know its your way to go with colours a bit more desaturated, but maybe this could add a bit to your piece.

hopefully youre ok und alles liebe zu ostern :) hoffentlich hattest du eine gute zeit mit deiner familie.

04 April 2006, 03:27 PM (

Changed the overall hue slightly. Better? Worse? Indifferent?

To be honest, it feels like the whole painting is getting worse every time I touch it!

(NOTE TO GLENN: This is the version I'm NOT going with- it's the other version above! Thanks so much for the help, I appreciate it!)

04 April 2006, 04:18 PM
You've been busy! Your people are looking great. I like the original orientation of the ship mainly because I think that is what I'm used too. The boat flipped the other way once I look at it a while looks good too, but I think the original position works best. If you feel things are looking worse in your image then my suggestion is to not paint on this for a day or two so you can sort of refresh your perspective. I do that for myself sometimes and it seems to help. You're doing a great job on your image, lots of emotion and drama going on and you have captured that very well.:)

04 April 2006, 04:36 PM
i think the old colors are better and i think theres a problem where crowd ends someplaces its not clear if its a person or a stone or a half-man half-stone. other than that its going great

04 April 2006, 05:08 PM
Hi paperclip. I agree with Samanthie about the give a day's rest if the image is not working for you right now. I just dont agree with her on the new orientation.

I like your previous orientation better coz it immerses me in the crowd, makes me feel like one of them, since my eye starts off first with that old guy in the foreground. Left to right reading in effect there for you. Your new orientation focuses my eyes on the ship first, it's hard for me to bring the eyes down to the crowd from up there, coz that structure beside it is blocking the path that my eye is suppose to follow to get to the crowd. The trees are doing the same thing. So there's no way to get from the ship to the crowd in my opinion.

I think the rotation present in your composition is a lil too simple, too circular. It's just one roundabout in the image, and we've seen all of it. It ends too soon. Might be good to break it up a bit.

Colorwise, I'm not sure what mood you're going for here. But the previous color scheme is calm compared to the greenish saturation you provided your recent post. The green in the image kinda makes me feel like there's something bad that's about to happen, like a biohazard bomb is about to go off in the unseen area of your image.

Well, hope I helped somehow ~peace

04 April 2006, 02:14 PM
I'm taking a little while off from working on my entry, I'll be back though within a week or two, I promise! Lots of stuff going on. I'm going home- my brother's getting married and we're having a lot of relatives coming home. Plus my parents want me to help paint the house beforehand. :D

I'm going to keep working on some of my other work though (like this: )

04 April 2006, 02:51 PM
i like where this is going. i feel that it is slightly overworked though. The colours are a bit muddy. The crowd also fades out very fast. There seems to be a separation between the group at the front and the surounding crowds. The surrounding crowds also blend in with the path. Anyway, i'm sure you'll come back to this and make it work. good luck with it!

04 April 2006, 03:06 PM
I'm so sorry I missed so many things here, Theresa! First of all I want to congratulate you on your brother getting married! Your other painting looks so cool! That could have been your concept for your entry too ;).

Back to the topic: Be careful not to make the crowds blend into the pathway like a textured rug. I think you don't have to make a continuous line of crowd. Break them up into several groups. I think it will make it looks more interesting overall. The ship is looking better now too! How about adding other ships in the horizon, waiting for their turn at the station ;). The black in the background is too hard and heavy, so try to soften it up with lighter colours. Is that a green slimy pool in the middle? I agree with Samathie about taking some time off and come back later with fresher eyes! One more suggestion.. use darker palette for the foreground ad lighter one for the background. Helps with the depth.

Keep pushing on (but take a short break now)
Enjoy painting your house!

04 April 2006, 03:29 PM
It will be a nice break for you so have fun Theresa and congrats to your brother!:)

04 April 2006, 10:53 PM
How is the house painting going? You must be a culchie like me, what part of the bog are you from Theresa?

Your Journey...
The fist thing that struck me was the crowd seem to become flagstones in the path to the ship. Your small faces in the crowd are all visable side on when we should be seeing the backs of their heads (thats easier to paint too).
The foreground people are looking good now. That mop of hair on the left, is it one or two heads? Probably needs a bit more definition or separation.
The green grass area looks empty what about putting in a few straglers there. The heads of the crowd at the grass seem too small for the proportion of the trees there. You may be fore shortening too fast. Make the heads bigger.
I'd prefer to see the ship pointed the other way about to head off into the unknown as opposed going in harbour.

Enjoy your rest, your Easter eggs, painting the house, your brother wedding and this picture when you get back.


04 April 2006, 11:31 PM
Hi Ed!
I grew up in mayo (Castlebar) but my mother is from michigan and my father from galway, so I have a mix in there. :D How about yourself? Culchie is right, hahah, I'm always being pulled up on that in Dub. How about these D4ers, eh?

I fully agree with all your crits, by the way. I'm positively weeping as to how much I have left to do, especially when I see how many people are practically finished!! (patience, clippy, patience..) It's rather embarrassing especially when you see how much time I've spent on this. :blush:

Anyway, I'm sure I'll have a lot of fun with the wedding. I painted the laundry room today, a very fetching pale mushroom colour and I'm moving onto the kitchen tomorrow...merrion square green, no less!

04 April 2006, 03:22 AM
Hey Theresa, don't feel upset. Its going to affect your painting! I have a secret to share: how I find the inspiration is by looking at the things I like the most! You see, my painting is initially inspired by one of my favourite game "Sanitarium". The base of the concept is very similar to this game, so I took that and made it my own! I love the designs of the game as well. So the fire of inspiration is burning strong inside me! That's how I am able to keep pushing onwards to finish the painting. Part of me wants to see it done and realise my own personal goal! In a way, this is my tribute to the creators of Sanitarium.

Looks for something you really like in your works and get the inspiration for it. It will work wonders!

04 April 2006, 07:41 AM
Ooooh....good suggestion. I'll have to have a think about that one. In a way, it seems sort of obvious, but I've never done that before, so thanks very much for the push!

*enters thinking mode*

04 April 2006, 09:36 PM
Hi Theresa

I've done a head size graduation onto your picture but when I tried to email your Hotmail account it bounced back. It is probably as well because it could really wreck your head and all the crowds heads too if you follow it.
If you think you want to be upset email me and I'll get it to you but you have been warned it could wreck your head!


04 April 2006, 10:50 PM
Hey, post it on here! Any crits I can get on this will seriously help. I'm going to make the furthest heads less detailed (can anyone say 'BLOB'?) so I'll try not to panic too much when I see it....thanks for the help, by the way!

04 April 2006, 12:20 PM
i can say 'blob' if it helps :)

the empty place in the middle of the of the picture is not clearly understood if it looks like both sea and valley it would be better if it looks like just one of them (i prefer sea but both can be good).

and i insist on older colors too much green now. its lookin toxic, poisonous or whatever but not good with this scene and the expression of the old ugly guy was somehow better than this one he was ugly but had an expression somehow needed in this picture.

congratulations for your brother, have good time, im sure you'll be back with something good:wavey:

04 April 2006, 03:46 PM
wow, what a neat idea. the sinister mood is very well worked out and the characters look very paperclippish ^^

I don't think, it's getting worse step by step. Pluck up courage and make it the superb entry it's still going to get. (oh, my English is terrible)

04 April 2006, 04:20 PM

04 April 2006, 08:28 AM
Hi Theresa, I'm not a member yet so I can't post attachments :sad: If you go to my site you'll get my email then send me yours and I'll send you the 'heads'


04 April 2006, 10:46 AM
I just sent you an email, Ed.

I couldn't keep away from the entry, even though I'm busy these days. Damn my photoshop addiction! It looks quite different now....I'll post an update tonight. I changed the perspective, detailed the staircase a lot more, I changed the colors around and...well, you'll see later.

04 April 2006, 02:46 PM (

More details.. also, I changed the perspective and a bunch of other things.

I can't wait to be finished with this thing, it's taken me way too long! Next challenge, I'm doing something a sphere on the floor.

04 April 2006, 03:00 PM
I like the addition of the old lady. The detail to the road is what caught my eye this time..It looks great. Also like what you did with the crowd in the distance. Great job Theresa!:thumbsup:

04 April 2006, 09:59 PM
Theresa - It's looking good. The faces are coming together and fitting in with the whole piece well. I like the scale of everything, too. One thing I just noticed that needs a little bit of tweaking is the angles of everything in relationship to everything else. I'm pretty certain that I couldn't explain what I'm talking about with words alone, so I hope you don't mind a quick drawover:

THe ship and the trees are not really following the same "vertical" as the rest of the piece... or vise versa. The building in teh background is partway inbetween, which gives it the uncomfortable feeling that it's leaning over... perfectly valid, but it seemed unintentional. The charactes in the front don't matter so much: Without seeing tehir entire bodies, they could be on almost any angle and still look correct. But look at those furthest-away people, and the building they're walking to, and the ship. It's possible that a few small rotations may help the piece sit together a bit better. Hope you don't mind my pointing it out...! Anyhow, you have anough to work on... is the house-painting going? What are you painting it as? You're and artist, you're not doing one of those boring one-color deals, are you? :D Have fun at the wedding!

(and hey, half of my family is from Michigan, too!)


04 April 2006, 10:03 PM
We could be related, Mike! :D My mother's from Ann Arbor, my brother lives in Lansing, my grandmother in Marquette and plenty more family in Traverse City... I lived in Grayling for a few years when I was a kid...

Thanks for your paintover and for pointing out what was bugging me...I knew something was screwy, but I couldn't put my finger on it!

04 April 2006, 03:40 AM
awesome work Teresa I just love this work - so totally epic :applause: :bounce: :thumbsup:


04 April 2006, 08:26 AM
Thanks, Gord! I want to fix the things Walrus pointed out and also try and fix up my values a bit, the colors a bit and..... more detailing!

04 April 2006, 10:46 AM
hi theresa your picture is looking much better and i think now its on the right way. other than michael said only maybe some places are too dark for this mood but it feels like you already have it in mind and going to work on them. old lady and the ugly man:D looks much better. i think you may need some more face expressions on the right side of the picture if can be done with little pixels maybe two or three people looking back from the middle of the crowd ( like these ones:eek::sad::shrug::hmm::surprised ) , just an idea.

04 April 2006, 10:54 AM
Cool idea. Reminds me of a Enki Bilal comic...

Cheers, Jeroen

04 April 2006, 11:23 AM
i like the style of your painting. it gives a different feeling. if i were you i will add some flying creatures in the air. but because theres a lot of details you need to work on maybe its not a good idea. good luck to you.

04 April 2006, 12:19 PM
Lol! It would be funny to have a picture made mostly out of little CGTalk emoticons...I'll start on that once I finish this! They could be little mischievous critters.....

Yah-roon-cha: Enki Bilal? Wow, I'm very flattered that this reminds you of that- I googled his stuff and obviously he has a far better technique but I like his style and concepts, so I'm very pleased that my work reminds you of it! :thumbsup:

Thepineman: Once I finish (will I ever?) detailing some more, I'll think about flying things (flying emoticons? :D ) , but first I want to see how this turns out....maybe it'll be too crowded.

The colors seem a bit off to me. Suggestions, people?

04 April 2006, 01:37 PM
Hey Theresa, I got an cool idea for ya! What about having some of us cgtalkers play a cameo role in your painting? ;) We send you our pictures and you'll have cool references for all those people! What do you say? We could have the "Where's Wally?" moment like Where's Walrus, you, me and others. :D haha, just kidding if you don't like the idea.

As Walrus pointed out, the objects in the picture do seem to lean in one direction.
Perhaps the objects at the left can lean a bit to the right and vice versa. It might help to direct the eye towards the ship more.

By the way, there seem to be something black at the background 'holding' the ship. Not sure if that was intentional.

You still have more than one month to finish this (which is a loonnngg time), so I am confident you can finish it with flourish!

04 April 2006, 01:52 PM
Great idea, Jerome! I'm well up for that- any references would be fantastic!!

For anyone out there reading this-
POST A PICTURE OF YOURSELF and I'll paint you into the background for my Challenge entry!!

04 April 2006, 03:15 PM
Theresa -

My dad grew up in the Royal Oak / Southfield area. In fact, I was born in Detroit.

Glad my drawover was helpful!

As for the faces, don't get too cheesy now - only use faces if they feel like they fit in the world you're creating. Don't compromise your concept just to be cute! But if you want it, my picture's on the bottom of the 2nd page of my Wage Slave tutorial (link in purple below.) Feel free to edit out the glasses if your world's people don't have glasses, or make the nose bigger, or anything... or seriously, to leave it out if it's not fitting the piece...

After all, it's hard enough to paint 300 people, but when you have the pressure of feeling like they've got to be accurate portrayals of people you know and you don't want to offend them... Well, just when I think you can't make the painting any harder on yourself, you manage to top yourself! :) Really, you should just skip it and don't get distracted from larger issues, imho.

Good luck!


04 April 2006, 05:24 AM
As for the faces, don't get too cheesy now - only use faces if they feel like they fit in the world you're creating. Don't compromise your concept just to be cute! But if you want it, my picture's on the bottom of the 2nd page of my Wage Slave tutorial (link in purple below.) Feel free to edit out the glasses if your world's people don't have glasses, or make the nose bigger, or anything... or seriously, to leave it out if it's not fitting the piece...

After all, it's hard enough to paint 300 people, but when you have the pressure of feeling like they've got to be accurate portrayals of people you know and you don't want to offend them... Well, just when I think you can't make the painting any harder on yourself, you manage to top yourself! :) Really, you should just skip it and don't get distracted from larger issues, imho.

I have to agree with walrus on this one. So I take back what I've suggested. It will really be an unnecessary burden for you to get everyone's likeness done right. So keep focusing on your original vision!

04 April 2006, 12:13 PM (

Made a start on the clouds! I'm not sure if the colors suit the picture. I'd like to know your thoughts on this?

04 April 2006, 01:43 PM
Wow, what you've done with the clouds has completely changed the tone of the entire piece quite handily. It suddenly went from a somber painting to a hopeful one. I like it, being the cheerful guy that I am. But now ... uh oh! ... why do all the passengers still look so worried and grim? I love the sky, but it might entail having some expressions that match the new tone. (sorrrrrrry!)

Two other things about the clouds themselves: First, it looks like the boat is literally sitting on a large cloud bank. That might be your intent. But if not, pulling the clouds away from the ship should help. If we're lookng up at the ship, would we see its entire underside that dark, not just the front. (seeing only part of it dark also makes it looks like it's resting upon something.)

Lastly, two words: God rays. (done on a seperate layer, of course, so you can see whether you like them or not.)

Oh, and I like the fixes to perspective and leans - looks much more together now!

Anyhow, still coming, and still looking good! :)


04 April 2006, 03:46 PM
They're worried because their passports are forged. :D

Don't worry, I'll change it though.

Edit: Just looked at your photo, Mike. Good looking as well as talented, are we? :D :cool:

Double edit: I'm not trying to kiss ***, I promise! there any other way of saying this? :sad:

04 April 2006, 11:11 PM
This is looking wonderful.
I don't envy the workload you have set yourself (although it seems that in these competitions theres heavy and heavy when it comes to the amount we must do).

I wouldn't change the mood/expressions on the faces, who knows what awaits them or what they are leaving behind and besides, that ship looks pretty scary to me ;)
Ignore that if you weren't going to change them, it just seemed that way from your last post.

I love your painting style btw.

04 April 2006, 05:58 AM
Good luck paperclip!

04 April 2006, 10:04 PM
Hi Theresa

I just noticed the flags on the ship. :-> I love them. Did you put them in on Paddy's Day?

Maith a Chaileen


04 April 2006, 07:52 PM
wow clippy!

this has become an epic entry..

sorry, been neglecting the challenge entries for too long now, but that is about to change, so I can take a closer look at what you are doing in here....:D

04 April 2006, 08:58 PM
wow, much improvment than last time I was here. the clouds look great so far and so does that cobble stone road looks pretty intense, detail wise! as for the colors, they seem a bit desaturated, and you dont want them going to their doom, per say..why not lighten it up? add some blues, greens (brights), and orange/reds to the clouds? I think itd give it a more lively feel, but great job none the less.

by the way, I saw that Sora picture you posted on someone elses entry :| I feel very bad for that child.

04 April 2006, 01:56 AM
Hahaha.. God-Rays for Paperclip and Walrus! Is that your secret sign for your secret society (The God-Rays Club :) ) or what? Anyway, I want in! :D

I think the parting clouds to reveal a clear blue sky behind is a good idea! It livens up the painting a great deal more! Like walrus said, the cloud under the ship looks like it is holding it in its place. Uh oh, now you gotta make the people's expressions that of hope and relief instead of the original's sorrow and uncertainty. Oh, try not to make the building (station) too black... use a lighter tone than black, like dark bluish/purplish colour (A tip for you: make a new layer, choose a suitable bluish colour, set your brush opacity low to about 30 percent, paint over the station with one flat colour, adjust the layer opacity until the building is not too black anymore and not too bright either. That way, I think the station will have a nice sense of depth of being further away in the distance. Merge the new layer to your original layer to finish it) Maybe you can also do the same for the black part of the sky too?

How about putting a sea below the black (stormy?) sky in front of the 'beach'?

I hope I didn't confuse you too much!

04 April 2006, 09:18 AM
I think I'm going to return the sky to a stormy color, it seemed to suit the overall effect of coming out of the darkness and the crowds in an abandoned land and, this sounds so unclippyish! Most of my stuff is much happier! (apart from the little dead dragon in the grass for the DSG 'dragon slayer' the other day)

Liondogboy: I'll take your advice regarding the lightening up, it's sound advice and it does look like it needs it.
I also like your sea idea.

Adonihs: Hm...but I LIKE doom! I might put more colours in there though, especially around the stair area.

Mu: Epic only in that there's far more chances of messing up. :D

Ed: Tiochfaidh ar la, buaichaill! :) I think I'll just give it ONE flag, two seems to be overdoing it a little....

Riddick: thanks! I really like your entry, I'm keeping an eye on it, so I am!

04 April 2006, 11:41 AM
Hey Paperclip,

I'm glad you've decided to get back to a somewhat moodier atmosphere. It was beginning to look a little too bright and happy for my taste:). I think a sense of approaching doom also really fits the comp, though.

Thank you very much for visiting my WIP-thread! I appreciate the compliment:blush:. But it's exactly the reason I'm very much inspired by all your stuff, so right back at ya!:) By the way your tips are really spot on and helpful, I can't wait to get home and work more on it.

Keep working on this, I feel you're only inches away from hitting the nail on the head and finishing. Go go go!

04 April 2006, 08:51 PM
:) Looking good paperclip

and updates are really working well. I thought I had my work cut out painting three faces, but this a completely different scale!!

Great facial expressions and I like the dark atmosphere - way too much cheerfulness in this challenge

Looking forward to seeing how this develops :) (smilees aren't working, so I can only use happy faces, but they should be jumping up and down and clapping)

05 May 2006, 12:14 PM
Wakey, wakey Theresa. The wedding must be over by now unless you have really taken to painting mushroom paint on walls :-).

I'm missing all your updates and watching the progression of a masterpiece. Give us an update.


05 May 2006, 03:21 PM
hi theresa ive been away for a week and shocked to see nothing new here:surprised

are you alright?

05 May 2006, 06:05 PM
Hoi Theresa, where's the next update! The clock is ticking. Bip bip bip!

Is everything alright with you now? Are you busy with work? Hope to see your new update real soon. Perhaps you are waiting to spring your surprise on us! :D

05 May 2006, 08:51 PM
very powerful - IMHO - I think you should clean up/tighten up the ship and forground figure a bit. Terrific effort - you should be really proud of this work!


05 May 2006, 01:52 AM
I dunno if I'll finish the challenge- right now, I have a problem calling anything finished- not just this piece, but in general. It's very frustrating and it's something I definitely have to break past if I want to mark myself as anything worth calling an artist. Right now, I feel rather discouraged, especially since I recieved very harsh criticism from one of my closest friends. He told me it wasn't worth finishing and, well......

However, my tenacity may win through in the end. We'll see.

05 May 2006, 09:12 AM
Hey come on, you're almost there! Don't give up.

05 May 2006, 01:03 PM
Theresa, Don't let that stop you! You have to believe in yourself and focus on bringing out the best you can manage in every work you do. If anyone said things like that to me, I will really want to try my best to prove that person wrong! I understand how you feel because I have had that experience many times before. Let it make you stronger and better instead of the other way round!

05 May 2006, 01:38 PM
your piece is evolving wonderfully! i am impressed by the textural feel you've developed, and the composition that leads you from the characters in the foreground and away to the sky ship ready to set sail. very impressive piece -- your talent is amazing! a pleasure checking back and seeing your progress....

05 May 2006, 01:38 PM
It is definitely worth finishing!

First of all, it's a good piece.

Second of all, the feeling of completion that you will have in your heart knowing that you stuck it out and finished it is worth it all by itself. Weigh against that the feeling that you will have if you don't finish it: You sound like you're feeling a bit down about your artwork right now, is abandoning a piece that you've put 3 months into really going to make you feel better?

Plus you have to finish just to be included in the contest. I'll tell you a secret: Years ago, the very reason I started doing freelance artwork was because I had trouble finishing things. Doing contract work forced me to have to complete them, and the habit's (mostly) stuck. Doing a contest, especially one with this many onlookers, is pretty much the same thing: You're comitted, now you have to finish. And all of us are watching you and cheering you on.

Now get back to work!


05 May 2006, 02:41 PM
I suspect your 'friend' is probably jealous that you have got this far in the challange. Come on Theresa, get your ass moving there is only a few more steps for you to get it finished. If you like give me a call or I can meet you somewhere to go over it or just talk it over on the phone.:wip: (misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=0#)

As far as I can see all you need to do is -
1. Straighten the ship and (although I'm a bit reluctant to say it) get rid of one of the flags.
The people are fine now, the 'heads' overpaint I sent doesn't apply any more because of the way you've changed the building.
2. The heads on the right near the trees are probably a bit small for the size of the trees.

That's it your finished then. :arteest: (misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=0#)

Who cares what some 'friend' says. If you count him as one critic you still have an awful lot of admirers here. Have a look at your posts, for God's sake, you've got more than most people. Your hot stuff just don't let one splash of cold water put out your fire! :banghead:


05 May 2006, 04:50 PM
I couldn't agree more and just wanted to send you my support along with all the others. What I think is your main obstacle is that you are really superb at developing rough, sketchy pieces with a lot of raw feeling: after that it comes down to the 'boring' stages of rendering and I think you're less sure how to go about that stage.

The only way is right through it! Come on, you can only get better and the pieces you've done already have superb emotion and atmosphere. Really, if you don't finish I will. And I'll muck it up, so I WARN YOU!!:)

Go on then.

05 May 2006, 05:13 PM
i think the piece looks really good clippy and would be a shame not to finish it . First of all you are doing this challenge for yourself so U can be better and practise. Sure u are going to get critisisms and some of them even harsh, thats part of the game, but that should discourage u but rather make u more stuborn and work more to make yourself better. Go clippy go clippy :D u can finish this :D

05 May 2006, 05:19 PM
Theresa, all I can say is finish your piece. If every artist gave up everytime someone told them to give up, a lot of great art work would die instant deaths. You got this far when most of us stopped even before we started. You are almost there, just needs some tender touches here and there, so girl, chop chop chop!

05 May 2006, 05:21 PM
Right now, I feel rather discouraged, especially since I recieved very harsh criticism from one of my closest friends. He told me it wasn't worth finishing and, well......
Why the hell would he say something daft like that? Seriously, it's a strong piece that begs some extra lovin', and abandoning all the hard work you've put into it thus far would be a travesty. And if you're feeling down, hop on IRC and act like a fool. :D

05 May 2006, 09:57 PM
dont let your close friends pull you down, i had many very close friends made me lose many things.

and all artists has that 'down feeling' time, most pessismist; you dont want to finish anything and you want to give up whole art thing for a moment (i lived this 2 years ago). but the best way to pass it is to fight it. finish your work and you'll feel much better it may go hard until the finishing time, but its most rewarding to finish that kind of work. even if this one finishes as not a good artwork of yours, finishing this one will upgrade you and you'll be much better next time believe me.

and let me say if i had more than 500 posts in my thread nothing could stop me (supernatural powers may:P ) i mean ive past 50 posts i was nearly going to celebrate it.
believe your supporters. your concept rocks and picture is great. you've got lots of faces there and all done with naturalistic expressions and its something hard to do.

you have to finish this for us but more than anything for yourself.

i totally agree with ed, jeromoo and walrus (you can read their posts again and again) and with all others but absolutely not with your friend:curious:

god-rays club will support you too:)

now have a cool drink(or hot whatever you like) and start to work
go theresa, go theresaaa!!!:bounce::bounce::bounce:

05 May 2006, 06:40 AM

This is a great piece of work Theresa and it would be a shame to stop because of what your friend says. When you put a lot of effort into something, it's easy to feel unhappy with progress and eventually you come out the other side with an even stronger piece of work.

I've had to constantly rework and change my entry for this, and it's taken a long time to get to a stage where I felt it might be worth carrying on with - but I'm glad I did

....and individium is right ...if I had that many posts, I would be very happy
Keep up the great work :) :)

05 May 2006, 09:35 AM
I hope you are busy finishing your pic. In between the few things you have to do getting it finished I like you to consider me for membership of the God Rays club.

The basis of my application is because my pic originates where the God Rays come from. Do I qualify? I've also put in this request to Walrus and the previous King, Jerome.

Hope I get your vote.


PS... just finish it!

05 May 2006, 10:07 AM
Did you get any more details out of your friend besides "not worth finishing"?

Believe me, I do insist on harsh critics whenever I introduce a piece of music or a story/manuscript to close friends of mine and I figured out by now who of them is capable of giving details about which parts suck.

Because even worse than a "wow, that sucks because of [point1] [point2] [point3]" is a

"yea, it's nice... kind of"
*crickets chirping*

But to say something like "it sucks so bad it isn't even worth finishing" without giving any hints on why the heck that should be the case is a bit dimwitted, imho.

So, in this special case, I would advise you to reconsider your friend's guess and trust the hundreds of professionals and enthusiasts who just love your entry...

ecpecting updates...

Mr. Mu

05 May 2006, 10:11 PM
Wow, so many posts and all so encouraging! :blush: :D You guys rock. :buttrock:

I'll hopefully be able to push out an update within the next day or two, the wedding was yesterday, we have a bunch of people at home now and things are kinda chaotic, but it should calm down before too long!

A bit more about the's my brother, he's a musician/artist type (, in case you're interested!) and he's known for being 'harsh, but fair'. (he's an anaesthesist, by the way.) We have very different styles and they clash sometimes. He can be very persistent about the type of art he wants me to create, but I've been going my own way anyway. :D Basically what he said was that he preferred an earlier version (remember the one with the big blonde standing in the front?) of the painting and I got discouraged thinking about all the detail I'd done (hours!) and he said he didn't like the detail I did, or the clouds (which I agreed with him on) and he said that the people didn't fit in and that nothing really gelled in the a certain extent, I agreed with what he said, not everything though and in the end he just said that if he was me he'd just forget about it and start a new one. (cue existential artisty angst)

However, the clippy is now bent back into shape and ready to go again! I don't care if anyone else likes my art, I'm doing it for myself, to learn and because I'm passionate about my painting. I couldn't care any less whether I win anything, but this just made me realise why CGTalk is such a fantastic place- a group of passionate people pushing each other to improve, what could be a better place to learn and make friends?I'm going to keep going until I can call something finished, then go and go some's actually an obsession. It's healthy, right....? Becca tells me it is....

Once more, thanks for the words of encouragement, friends. :bounce:

Edit: This may be my longest post ever.

05 May 2006, 10:52 PM

edit: this may be my shortest post ever.

05 May 2006, 11:51 PM
Geez, the name of his record company should have clued you in from the start! :)


05 May 2006, 07:36 AM


He can be very persistent about the type of art he wants me to create

this must be the funniest thing I have heard in a long time. I remember a close friend complaining to me about the fact that "you never sing like I want you to..." We had a good laugh about that at the time...:scream:

(cue existential artisty angst)

lmao!:scream: We all know that! Great to know you got over it...

it's actually an obsession. It's healthy, right....? Becca tells me it is....

Maybe we should not judge this based on the opinion of a person who basically uploaded herself to the internet..., but all in all...
*unplugs DSL cable from brain*
...sure it's healthy...

looking forward to your updates

05 May 2006, 03:32 PM
Great news Theresa!:thumbsup: :thumbsup: I'm looking forward to the update.

05 May 2006, 03:53 PM
However, the clippy is now bent back into shape and ready to go again! I don't care if anyone else likes my art, I'm doing it for myself, to learn and because I'm passionate about my painting. I couldn't care any less whether I win anything, but this just made me realise why CGTalk is such a fantastic place- a group of passionate people pushing each other to improve, what could be a better place to learn and make friends?I'm going to keep going until I can call something finished, then go and go some's actually an obsession. It's healthy, right....? Becca tells me it is....

very well said... and I´m one of the happy ones that really looking forward to see your image done... go Clippy go... :applause:

05 May 2006, 06:35 PM
hey hon :)

its great that you decided to finish it :). it would be really great if all three of us finish in the end :) because i know that ailsa is working at hers too and i put on work again too.

just finish wether someone else likes it or not. i really know what you have gone through with it, my best friend is like that too. i dont show him my stuff anymore because hes always telling me its shit..... he got a rather special opinion about art though, doesnt consider anything as art really.

im really looking forward to your update and hope youre having a good busy time.

many hugs :bounce:

05 May 2006, 09:17 PM
That's the best thing I've read on CGTalk ever! (even if I'm only here a few weeks).

Go for it Theresa if you don't win a prize you'll probably be crowned Queen of the God Rays anyway. From what I've seen from Jerome and Walrus you've no competition :scream: but I'll make an attempt soon.

Your brother's record label seems to accuratly describe his artistic sense. :rolleyes:

If you have a chance can you have a look at my 'Souls' and give me your opinion.

Lots of Love


Go neihri an bothar leat (sorry about the bad spelling)

05 May 2006, 11:02 PM
That's really a great progress. It's going to be a nice scene.

05 May 2006, 06:09 PM
...he's known for being 'harsh, but fair'. (he's an anaesthesist, by the way.)


Anyway, this has turned out great despite the lack of any chickens, and the people are really well done. The only thing that bothers me is the ship seems to be resting on the cloud bank, and because the cloud seems far away, so does the ship. Maybe make the overlap a bit more obvious.

Good luck with it (maybe you could include a chicken in the crowd..?)

05 May 2006, 06:24 PM
Wow, I looked away for a while and it's really progressed!
I haven't read through all the other replies since I saw the last update, hope this hasn't been mentioned before: the people seem to be going down a slope, and it seems a bit too steep to be comfortable... with such a crowd it would be unsafe... if you lowered the horizon a little the slope would seem less. (The slope upwards would then seem steeper instead, but that might be ok.) Also, the ship - it's so tilted, maybe it should be more horizontal if it's moored, waiting for its passengers to embark?

05 May 2006, 08:18 PM
looking great and already heading towards the finals??? hehe i better peed my snailrrace up a bit, looking great so far and i hope you get the finetuning into the best light. you actually loose a bit the midtonerange, towards the dark, maybe a slight add of atmospherical lightup (gi, fog) helps to ballance it out but hey, hahaha freaking impressive, keep on rockin Theresa!

05 May 2006, 09:17 PM
This is looking real good, angry art baby! Just a tad bit more coloring in the faces up front, probably red or orange would do the trick.

05 May 2006, 10:33 PM
we knew that you were going to make the right choice theresa may the god-rays be with you :scream::D.

the funny thing is a short time after i wrote you, i lived a discouraging situation and i had my own dilemma with continueing on my own journey begins thing but like you im here for the improvement i'll have the best reward that can be taken ever. but of course i'll not say no to any more reward from cg:D whatever its nice to see you're back, looking forward for an update.

05 May 2006, 01:49 AM (

So here's the latest update- the clouds are dark again and I put work into the ship. It is HEAVILY referenced...almost to the point of guilt. I just don't know anything about ships!
Only sixteen days left...

05 May 2006, 03:12 AM
ha, ya i know youre feeling. ships and I dont go wel ltogether, I trie to paint a ship like that before, sinking, half way in the water and nearly killed myself over it. So i know youre pain *pats*

but this is looking good, but times almost up =O pressure pressureeee

youll be fine =) looks great!

05 May 2006, 06:28 AM
I like the changes. That ship looks good!

05 May 2006, 08:47 AM
Studying references first and foremost helps alot, doesn't it, Theresa! Perhaps you have learnt something to help your process. I study references all the time for those subjects not familiar to me. By the way, those god rays need to be brighter at their sources. (see ref I have posted at Mike's thread)

So going to make yourself the God-Ray Queen, huh? :P

05 May 2006, 10:14 AM
*removed due to extreme suckage*
You wouldn't believe me if I told you the amount of time I've put into the clouds so far. I'd like some really honest crits on them...please don't worry about hurting my feelings, I know they suck!

05 May 2006, 10:24 AM
I meant to put THIS one as the update, not the previous version. Sorry!

05 May 2006, 10:42 AM
oh no! you have ruined the sky by making it too busy. you don't have to paint every inches of the sky, you know! some part can be left clean and flat. I'll go home and try to do a paintover for you as an example. Wait for my reply!

05 May 2006, 10:44 AM
Hi clippy,

back to business again - that's good...

I would like to point out another thing, apart from the clouds (not an expert on clouds, but then again, I am not an expert on anything in this...):

Do you plan on including more visual hints on the distance in your painting? Your use of perspective and composition serve that purpose very well, but you should also desaturate and blur the things which are distant.

Desaturation: because of atmospheric perspective which takes away the hue's saturation especially near the horizon line. It also helps to make a viewer easily focus on the high saturation areas of your paintings.

Blurring: Distance takes away contrast and hard edges. Also helps to make the viewer focus on high contrast areas with defined edges.

Maybe this could help with your cloud edges, too. Keep their edges saturated and sharp where the rays hit them, otherwise desaturate and blur their edges/appearance to push them back in depth...


again, not an expert. You are doing fine.

And you live in Ireland.

Does it get any better?...:)

05 May 2006, 10:51 AM
I'm scrapping the sky altogether and starting again. It just looks too awful- too messy and hard to read.

05 May 2006, 10:55 AM
This is how I feel right now:

05 May 2006, 11:30 AM (

And so I start again from the beginning.

05 May 2006, 11:48 AM
*gives many many hugs to theresa* i exactly know how you feel hon......... i think its like i felt this morning too. i wanted to quit the challenge at all cause nothing seemed in place and wrong..........

but dont give up, finish it, do the thing YOU want it to be. dont let you get distracted too much by us.

hopefully speak to you later :)

05 May 2006, 11:54 AM (

very slowly...

05 May 2006, 04:48 PM
Hi there Theresa, I did a very very rough paintover. In your painting, the main lighting seems to come from the very front (our position), so I put some sunlight reflection on those people in the foreground. I've resized the main characters to improve the depth as well. I soften the tone in the background for the same purpose. The clouds are lighted with warm colour tone as with the people to compliment the cool dark tone elsewhere. The trees now have more branches that 'flow' to the ship. Sorry if I don't make any sense here because I'm feeling sleepy at the moment.

This is just a mild suggestion to give you some ideas for your next update!
Gotta sleep now... zzzzzz

05 May 2006, 06:07 PM (

Thanks so much Jerome for your pointers, as you can see here I implemented a lot of them, it really makes a huge difference. :hug:

05 May 2006, 10:00 PM
Theresa and Jerome... how do any of stand a chance?

It's looking good Theresa. The ship needs to be toned down, it seems too bright for the dark clouds around it. I hope you're going to put your previous people back in. I love the girl, she reminds me of the picture of the girl on the old £1 note. You're probably a bit too young for that.

Keep it up Theresa and thanks for dropping by my pic. Which Soul do you like?


...and it was a lovely sunnd day today too. :)

05 May 2006, 12:57 AM (

Making a bid to become the God-Ray Queen....

05 May 2006, 07:29 AM
I'm not sure about the God Rays, they are a bit faint for the vote for Queen.

I like what your doing to the ship. Don't forget your bridges / walkways from the building.

It's coming along nicely.


05 May 2006, 07:50 AM

completely different atmosphere. Great sense of lightness/hovering around the ship now!

Much much much better now!

Go, Theresa!

05 May 2006, 11:42 AM
Hiya Therry!

Long time no see :D I've missed you! Your piece is looking wonderful, of all the things you've done I think this one seems to me to have the most striking colour-scheme - it all fits together very well.

Sorry if it's already been said as your thread is huge :P but the only thing throwing me a little is the ship looks pretty stationary. I think maybe if you played with blur-some artistic streaky thingies on the back it could really add some motion.

Great stuff :)

05 May 2006, 01:30 PM
Hey, Theresa, you've really made a lot of changes in the past many days. It's looking good. I really like the new sky and the colors. The ship truly stands out and looks great right now. Got a few thoughts for you, though...
* Did they all miss the boat? It now looks like it's already left the dock and is leaving without them. Guess it's not about their Journey, huh? If the boat hasn't left yet, what about a gangplank or walkway to anchor the ship to the building?
* It looks like the god-rays are coming from dark clouds. The whole sky is now cloudy and overcast, so right now it looks like they're just in there for the sake of being there. (You wouldn't do that? Don't worry, God-Ray club lets anyone in, god-rays or no. don't put them in just for our sake.) I originally suggested them when you had a huge break in the clouds from which the light was coming. If you really wanted them to work now, you could use many more breaks in these clouds, maybe a large glimpse of open sky in the upper right...?
* The people: If they ain't broke, don't fix them. Maybe some individual faces needed work, but not all of them. There you go, making life harder on yourself than it needs to be again. Are you going to make them all look like Jerome and me and everyone now? Just kidding... But I liked the faces before. They were all focused on the ship (or the ramp to it.) And then the faces looking forward were broken up by one face looking back, not at the camera necessarily but to talk to someone. It fit really well. Now they all look like they're going to be turned towards the camera, which breaks the 4th wall more, and might ruin the feel of moving forwards that they had before.

Anyhow, that's all I got. Hope you don't mind the notes. Good luck and keep your chin up!


05 May 2006, 01:51 PM
What on earth is the God Ray club?! I wanna join, it sounds like fun:).

05 May 2006, 02:02 PM
Hey there - Liking the composition. To increase the depth of field and help extend the distance the people must walk and emphasise how far away the ship is, the colouring of the cliff / ship area tot he horizon could be a little more 'faded', with the characters up front staying strong? Will look forward to following where your ship floats off to! Good stuff,


05 May 2006, 02:48 PM
Hey there Theresa, you are welcome! Glad to see you finally able to proceed! Walrus' notes are good ones, so please look into them as well. Maybe you like to have one more ship a few distance away from the main ship, waiting for its turn at the station. It could be more faded out as not to take attention away from the main ship. The purpose is to fill up the bare part of the sky, but it is truly not necessary.

Keep pushing on, and see you on MSN!

05 May 2006, 10:24 PM
Bring back the old mob, I like the previous people. Like Walrus said, don't be making work for your self.

Just one thing about the ship that bothers me. The God Rays are coming from the top right but the sails are facing left and drenched in sun light. They may need to be toned down a bit.

Go on, go on, go on. Maith a chaileen.


05 May 2006, 07:22 AM
Hello Theressa (;

Sorry for being so late on posting anything (useful or not) after you have supported me so much in my attempt in all of this.

I have to admit that I couldn’t follow up on some of your decisions, and why you have chosen to take some particular steps; after working so hard on them.
One of these is naturally the crowd, as Michael ( already stated…
Well it is YOUR image as a result, and I would respect your personal doubts on how things should go.

Actually now that I come to think of it… most of the things I had wished to point; Michael ( has already said them!

But I think I have a few more to add that I don’t exactly grasp about the boat:
And that’s its sails....
“Why they are not puffed up?” to be direct.

If the ship is going “Upwind” or even “downwind” there would be definite signs of wind on the sails (considering it is a multi-deck sailing ship… if I get it correctly… at least there would be something in the lateen sail)
If they were not actually thrust by wind and not in meant to be in motion, then why are all the sails full scale open with no signs of any reefing or withdraw?
Even if it is JUST dropping its sails… a simple rippling of the act would add some sort of evidence that it is actually IN that beautiful sky you have created (Which I would presume has at least a light breeze)

As I examine your boat, I like what I see… it simply looks fantastic where it is... and the lighting, painting is marvellous… but it has many things I can not understand.

Now my goal here is not to wreck you down, but maybe give you reasons to find ideas…
Like you can have the sails open and even the boat sort of heeling to the winds demands... but a variety of chains/ropes fastening it into place… even include the wind factor for the hair and the scarves of the crowd that’s going towards it.
Or you can remove the sails and work on detailing the masts and have it calmly sit there and wait for the people.

From the start of the image until the final stage it is in... You seem to have constantly tried to make it even harder on yourself.
Actually improving the image greatly and maturing it into an impressive piece of work…

I have told you before that I have really liked all that you have put into this. All I wish is for such good work and hard effort to not go for waste.

Best of luck Theressa (; this looks marvellous. I hope you can overcome the doubts you have on how to go on with it.


05 May 2006, 02:07 PM
hey theresa you finally made it this one is great however mike and black and jerome told anything that can help you. i just can tell i think you past the hardest part 'deciding'
and you can finish the rest easily.

bravo :applause:

05 May 2006, 01:06 AM (

I worked on the building, fixed the sails somewhat, put a bridge up there, changed the faces and hopefully it looks a bit better. I need to change the perspective of the stairs, they look like they're tilted. Oh well, back to the drawing board! I can feel the end getting closer though, can you? I'll post individual replies in the morning, thanks guys for pointing out mistakes, hopefully I fixed most of them? I still need to work on the stairs, the trees, the background, fix up the people and just give a few more finishing touches. :) Hopefully I'll have this in on time!

05 May 2006, 12:55 PM
I discovered a problem- when I shrink my painting in order to post an update and then make it larger, it loses details- becomes blurrier and sort of less contrasty. What can I do to avoid this? I'm downsizing from 3636 to 500 relative size and keeping both at 300 dpi. I then save a jpeg version and make it larger again. Is that not what you're supposed to do?

05 May 2006, 01:02 PM
very cool image. but i think you might of lost some of the dynamic curves in your earlier concepts! it still looks awesome but very restricted at the same time.

as for your problem go into the PS EDIT --> PREFERANCES --> GENERAL TAB

set and option called image interpolation to bicubic sharper. will increase file size but will fix any bluring with downsampling images.

05 May 2006, 01:09 PM
It says it's already on that preference. I guess there's nothing I can do? Is it destined to lose quality every time I update??

05 May 2006, 01:28 PM
well many will tell you that you should not up size images.

you can always size down, but its a really bad idea to size up in resolution.
that's the way jpeg compression works, it averages pixels so you loose information. my suggestion is keep a few copies of your original either in lossless bmp (if you dont keep the layers) or .tif or psd if you do want to keep the layers. avoid saving your work after you downsize. always save as :) i hope that helped.

05 May 2006, 01:35 PM
Hey Clippie, probably I just don't get the problem, but why don't you work in a large PSD file, save, then decrease image size to 600 by whatever, save as a JPEG and close PSD, 'save changes = NO'? That way you preserve the large PSD and you can show the JPEG's here?

Hmmm, you must have already thought of that. I probably just don't get it.

I think the colors on this pic look great now. The ship is also finished imo. My remaining problems are with the people in the fore- and background and the stairs.
The people in the foreground now fill too much space. Make less persons and move them to the left. Why? This way you're losing the connection between fore and background. They are not leading the eye into the picture now, but rather blocking the view of the background.
The transition between fore- and background people is too big imo. The people far away look almost more like cones than people. I liked the way the crowd faded away in previous versions.
For the stairs, I think they themselves look good, but the people merge into them and that's obscuring the scene. Somehow make it look like the people are on the stairs:). Also, the left side (for the viewer) of the first part of the stairs is a little high.

You're almost there!! Keep going.:thumbsup:

05 May 2006, 01:46 PM
It's looking good Theresa, I like the people, I recognise a few from earlier updates.

I think there should be a few more people further along the steps close to the building. Why are they crowded and the bottom with all that pace up there?

Regarding the saving here's how I do it. Firstly collapse all the layer on to the background, then resize it to about 1100 pixels high and the width in proportion, don't worry about the dpi as the forum just reads the pixel size. Now 'save as' in jpeg and you'll keep the image as good as jpeg allows.


05 May 2006, 02:02 PM
That's what I've been doing! Oh well.

Right now I'm putting leaves on the trees, giving it some bushage and I moved the building a bit higher up to make the drama more absolute.

05 May 2006, 02:44 PM (

I put in some trees, raised the building up a bit and exaggerated the curve somewhat. I also fixed up a few other things...

05 May 2006, 02:58 PM
Well you are now viewing your image on a tessellated square pixel monitor (Such as 72 full per inch)...
If you like what you see and how you see it. Get a screen grab of the image (Alt PrintScreen)
And upload that.

If not; even go for the option of "save for web" options to really control the optimise.

The reason is that the screen gives a great optimized tessellation for viewing it in the size you are looking at it. Sort of like viewing it on the web as it is. What we mostly forget about is that per each pixel.. there is not only one colour information stored...
That's the thing about optimising... removing the amount of data that the eye can not really figure out any ways.

Before the times that particular optimizers were out, we had to always screen grab stuff.

As obvious as this may sound.. It doesn't seem mentioned.
Thought I would remind you of it.

Another thing you should keep in mind is to try to have numbers that are a power of two while shrinking... like if you have an image that is 100cm... and you shrink it down to 96cm... then the size will possibly be even higher depending on your rescale settings.
Try dividing it to halves or quarters.

Hope this can help you out... Would really like to see your work in it's best :)

(If your screen is a small one... Just for the screen grab, you may want to increase the resolution through the display properties)

05 May 2006, 06:38 PM
Oooh, good tip! I'll do that from now on.

Is it just me or does the picture look too contrived now and not fresh enough? Sort of overworked but underdetailed? It's hard to describe. Or is that 'forest syndrome'?

05 May 2006, 07:21 PM
I love the concept, somewhere between sci-fi, noah's ark, and the pilgrims.

The mood is confusing however. The sky is moody and the people seem concerned (heck the ship is leaving) but the path is lit suggesting hope.

The people nearest us have the appearance of walking toward us and not toward the dock, seems to mess with your objectives. Showing their faces is very important, but maybe having them look over their shoulders or at each other while heading the other way would be better.

I like the sky and what it says. its dark close to the horizon but looks better in the distance where the ship is heading.

The only odd thing about the ship and the dock is it appears that the dock is both in front of and behind the ship because of the arm sticking out from the dock and past the ship.

Also look to your light-source. There appear to be multiple sources that aren't working together (Foreground man highlight on left side of face, foreground 4th person highlight is on right side of face).

05 May 2006, 11:13 PM
I think it is looking more real, not contrived.

I like what you've done to the trees but the heads below it seem too small for the proportion of the tree. You could make the heads bigger or bring the trunk of the tree down more so it is behind the head of the guy on the right.

Velk has a point about the bridge, if you could extend it to the middle of the deck it should be fine.

Ta she go haileen.


05 May 2006, 06:08 AM
It's getting better and better, I don't think it's overworked.
But some comments, first about the perspective. The building seems not flat but tilted, and the ship perhaps could be tilted a little as well. The lower part of the stairs or path seems tilted to the right. Here's an overpaint with red lines to show what I mean (not sure exactly where you want the horizon, perhaps it's a bit lower than I made it):

Then we have the composition, it's basically very good but just a reminder concerning the 'Rule of thirds" (which is a simplified version of the Golden Rule). Your main focus is the ship I think, and it's very close to one of the optimal focus points, just try to shift the focus to the front of the ship.

Finally, about the tones - I think the house and the ship, and perhaps the tree too, are a bit too contrasty, the blacks are too black. I mean, they shouldn't be full black. :) Here's my last paintover for today, I promise (sorry for the barrage I just think it's a cool image and it was fun). It's also incorporated the other changes I mentioned above. I also used Linda's smudge tool on the clouds.

05 May 2006, 06:31 AM
Great paintover by mr. Stahlberg.
I don't know if it's intentional, but your tree looks huge.
Instead you could turn it into a small bunch of trees.
But if you keep the huge tree, move it a bit to the right, away from the front guy's head. But still keeping that open space between the tree and the stairs.
Just some ideas.

05 May 2006, 06:41 PM
Go, Theresa, go!
The only serious advice I can offer at this point is this:
When you've got Steven Stahlberg giving you advice like that and doing multiple paintovers for you, by all means, take his advice!


05 May 2006, 08:11 PM
I am, mike, believe me! I'm on this like an american on a burger...ehm...I who's really excited about something. I mean, stahlberg, twice! :D Either my stuff is really bad and he's taking pity on it (most probably!) or he had photoshop open with spare time on his hands. Either way, it's all good for me!

Seriously though, Steven, thanks so much for your help and pointing out these things to help me improve- your second paintover even! I'm glad you found it fun, it's fun for me to wake up and see how my stuff could be further improved. Ah, I love cgtalk and especially the challenges. :love: Thanks again, steven.

05 May 2006, 10:05 PM
I've been following this with interest, i agree with mr.stahlberg, the contrast between the planes needs to be altered and the ship maybe brought slighly forwards and a bit bigger maybe. Its difficult to decide what to do but i'm sure you'll make the right descision, good luck in the closing weeks(one and a half...gulp!):)

05 May 2006, 07:41 PM (

So, here's my latest update as per stahlberg. I still need to work on the stairs and the people, but I'm pretty happy with everything else.

05 May 2006, 07:18 PM
It's looking great Theresa. Stephen's directions have heped bring it all together.

I'd like to see some people on the stairs to the ship. Yhey will help explain the journey a bit more.

Ta she go haileen


05 May 2006, 07:43 PM
I sure am getting a lot of help on this, Ed, aren't I? :D That's what you get for being tenacious!

Here's an update on the characters- the detail that is. I'm still working on the one on the far left.

05 May 2006, 08:36 PM
The people remind me of the Irish during the potatoe famine. :sad: That must be the ship to America.


05 May 2006, 09:43 PM
Funnily enough, I was discussing my picture with someone else (agamemnwn) and he said the ship idea reminded him of the potato famine (no e in potato btw!). I didn't even think of that up until then, but when he suggested it, It struck me that it was more or less the mood I was trying to create- emigrants being forced from their land to a future that is uncertain (hence why they were called 'coffin ships', not just because so many died on the way, even though they did).

It's drawing to a conclusion now. I just need to do the stairs, finish off the rest of the people and I can submit it. It's such a nice feeling being near the end!

Suggestions for a title are very welcome!!

05 May 2006, 03:16 AM
Hey there Theresa, great to have Mr.Stahlberg help you out. I think 'EdP-Ed' is green with envy :P. The faces are coming along nicely, but a little more refinement will help! Especially their eyes because eyes can tell stories all on their own! Right now the eyes look like they are painted on the skin itself (same skin tone colour).

Nice backstory you got there! The title? Hmmmmm , i think you already have it. "The Coffin Ship"

05 May 2006, 06:44 AM
The people look just like common folk. Excellent. And they look kind of desperate too.
The eyes have the right expression, just make them stand out a bit.

05 May 2006, 02:31 PM
As I have discussed with you earlier on msn, here's the paintover I promised. Now you can see what I mean.

05 May 2006, 08:11 PM
Wow Jerome, what a strong paintover! I was trying not to make mine too contrasty, as I didn't want them to really jump out of the painting too much, otherwise it might 'stop' the flow of the eye throughout the painting, but that may not be the case. I do like the way you made the eyes stronger though, I'll implement that in my painting. Thanks!

05 May 2006, 09:20 PM
You really have the luck of the Irish Theresa. All these super paintovers, wow. Tell Jerome the only reason I'm green is because I'm Irish, I'm not jealous.. well not really... well maybe a bit. :banghead:

I like Jerome's eyes but I think your right about not going too contrasty. Just add a little more life to the eyes and they're done.


05 May 2006, 12:23 AM
I didn't want them to really jump out of the painting too much, otherwise it might 'stop' the flow of the eye throughout the painting

If you're doing a painting on people and human suffereing and the impact of something on people, then it's often best the help humanize those people more to help others relate to them. I may always be painting about different subjects - usually humor - but I am strongly in the camp that it's the people that matter most in an illustration because that's what there is for us, as humans, to relate to. So never scrimp on fleshing out the people.

Nice draw-over, Jerome!


05 May 2006, 01:47 AM (

I WILL finish it on time, I WILL!

Here you'll see that I've implemented Jerome's suggestions in the faces and also fixed up the stairs a little.

05 May 2006, 05:48 AM
:) Cheerful bunch aren't they Theresa...

No seriously, this is looking really good and the changes to the stairs, people, love the trees and clouds are working really well.

no crits at this late stage.... just hurry up and finish.. Great work.. :)

05 May 2006, 06:41 AM
I've missed much of your progress Theresa... but I must acknowledge that your creation is really sensitive and strong... I really appreciate, and now, that you're near, you must finish it...

Go miss... and best of luck :thumbsup:

05 May 2006, 06:47 AM
It looks like you have made a lot of progress! Your almost there!

05 May 2006, 07:59 AM
Beautiful now!! I really admire you for taking this so far. You can be proud of yourself!:thumbsup:

05 May 2006, 10:32 AM
hey hey

as i promised, the first thing i did today was looking for your challenge update. its really nice but thres some things that are bugging me. i know that you want me to be faithful to you, so i did an overpaint to illustrate it better.

got some crazy ideas cause you got rid of your godrays, i made the ship have spotlights.

and hon, gimme your new email, wanted to send you the .psd file but it got returned.

05 May 2006, 11:06 AM
I WILL finish it on time, I WILL!

Me too!

Hey the eyes are better now.
Maybe turn the body of one or two of the forground figures a bit towards the ship.
Now it looks like they're not planning to climb the stairs like all the others.
You could add a hand on the shoulder of the last woman. Adding a bit of a comforting touch and a reason why they stand so close to eachother.

So, they kicked you out of that godray club, eh?

05 May 2006, 12:30 PM
Big areas look rather desaturated when I look at it on this (another) computer, so I'm going to fix it up a little with that to make it look a little more dynamic in areas.

05 May 2006, 02:32 PM
this one looks great so far, my only crit is this. STEP ON THE GAS! :wip: :wip:

05 May 2006, 02:51 PM
I've been working on it looks rather different now. I think I'll be finished in a few hours!

Hang around for the finale. :p

Britta: Danke schon fur die oberpaint. Ich werde manchmal in meinem Bild benutzen. Danke wieder!

05 May 2006, 04:10 PM (

What do you think? Am I done?

05 May 2006, 05:09 PM
I think it could use a bit more work :)
Especially the three figures standing on the right with their backs towards the viewer.
They're a bit too dark and maybe need some definition. Maybe you could give one of them a lighter cloak/hood and a bit more detail in the hair.
It gets a bit blurry towards the building, define the shape a bit more towards the top of the stairs. The people are blurry too, but I think that's kinda cool. Like real people turning into ghosts the further they go up the stairs.

05 May 2006, 05:20 PM
What Art2 says should finish it off nicely.

Well done Theresa, it's great to see you're journey is nearly finished.


05 May 2006, 05:37 PM
Haha, yeah, I guess I got a little too excited a little too early? I'll take your suggestions Marlon... hrph, more work to do (I kinda knew I did, but I wanted to finish, dammit!)

05 May 2006, 08:17 PM (


05 May 2006, 08:46 PM
Haha, just realised that the last update was post no. 666. :argh:

Does this mean I'll get blasted down with damnation?

05 May 2006, 08:47 PM
Great update Theresa!

What's that round thing in the foreground next to the 3rd girl btw?

05 May 2006, 08:49 PM
It's the backpack of the man in front of her. Is it too vague?

Finalizing crits much welcomed...!!

05 May 2006, 09:09 PM
I'm talking about that yellowish round thing. Is it also a backpack?

05 May 2006, 10:01 PM
Well, sort of. It was meant to be a thing they were carrying... crits? I'll define their clothes a little more, maybe make the mysterious thing a little less mysterious and I think I may be done.

05 May 2006, 10:11 PM
yay details, nice pic, looks like them old paintings


05 May 2006, 10:39 PM
Very nice Theresa... the only thing that bothers me is the highlight on Catleen's forhead (the girl 3rd from left). It's very bright compared to the others and I think your light sources is behind her.

I know you don't want to hear that but it's only a little thing.

Well done anyway, Theresa, it's a lovely piece.


05 May 2006, 11:04 PM
Demystified a few objects and tidied up some loose ends. I think I might be done now!

EDIT: I varied the colours of the clothing a bit. Hooray for photoshop!

05 May 2006, 12:12 AM
I'd say your done! What resolution does the 2d image have to be? Btw I finally added clouds to my scene.

05 May 2006, 02:42 AM
It has turned out beautifully Theresa and what a journey!:thumbsup: It looks finished to me too but that is your decision.:) Best of luck to you!

05 May 2006, 05:16 AM
Heya Theresa! Now that you are nearly finished, you can experiment with the brightness and contrast, hue and saturation! give it a try! Especially the brightness and contrast part! See what you can come up with. Remember to make a duplicate of the file for you to experiment with, and not on your original!

Finally you are almost done!

05 May 2006, 07:57 AM drama is absolute! It's weird what a difference bumping up the contrast makes. I don't want to OD on the contrast, so I'll tweak it a lot more.

EDIT: Some of the colors (specially on the people in the front!) are far too contrasty- i'll bump it down.

05 May 2006, 09:36 AM
Best of luck till the end.

05 May 2006, 12:44 PM (

Here's the final image- as I was working on it, I didn't have a specific story in mind, I really just wanted to express an idea, one of people being forced from their land by misfortune and poverty. This shows the mixed feelings you may get from having to leave your land, to a 'promised land', but not sure if you'll get there, die on the way or if the promised land is all that it's made out to be...

A big thank you goes to everyone who helped me with this, particularly walrus, stahlberg and jeromoo. Every crit that I've recieved has been considered and tried out and I feel like I've learned a lot through this. Thanks guys. :love:

05 May 2006, 03:39 PM
Job well done! Congratulations! :thumbsup::applause:

So, how does it feel to finish your work?
Bet it feels good :)

05 May 2006, 04:16 PM
Woooo, I love that last minute levels change. I like how the sky feels now. Congratulations on finishing! And thank you for the little mention, I'm happy to have helped in any way. So hey, now you get to relax! (and twiddle your thumbs for a month or two... :) )


05 May 2006, 06:12 PM
Well done Clippy , Great image and i love the feeling of it very much :D

05 May 2006, 07:00 PM
Well done Theresa. It's a lovely piece, it's great to see it finished. I knew it would be good. :applause: :bounce: :) :thumbsup:

Best of luck


05 May 2006, 07:24 PM
It feels, it feels goooood!

At least it would be if I wasn't having trouble uploading the dayum TIFF file. I got SmartFTP and it LOOKS like it's been submitted, but the CGNetworks says it hasn't. What's a clippy to do?

05 May 2006, 07:32 PM
Yaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy!!This calls for CELEBRATIONS:)!

It's looking absolutely lovely. The backstory I was touched by in the first sketch is all there now in the finished painting. It looks so...clear!

Congratulations on so much dedication and improvement. I'm really happy for you. Where can I see all the finished images? And will there be a selection of 'best pics'?

BTW, you've inspired me to join in next time!

05 May 2006, 07:36 PM
A selection of 'best pics'? I'm not sure what you mean there?

I'm glad you're joining in next time, I'll be sure and camp in your frontyard for it!

05 May 2006, 12:47 PM
I downloaded this FTP client:
Ace FTP3 Freeware. It's the easiest version I've ever seen- you just drag it over and it immediately uploads. Just so you know.

I made quite a few little changes since I uploaded the final image- now there's less contrast in the background, especially in the trees. It now looks more like this:

Remember--AceFTP3 freeware :thumbsup:

05 May 2006, 06:47 PM
if i can suggest something. flatten all layers make a new document and cut the image into a new file. then save it try .tif makre sure you dont carry over the color profile. i hope that's whats going on. i had a simmilar issue with PS when i was starting out using it. back in the machine flesh i drew my image and then the final turned out to be way too dark.

05 May 2006, 02:13 AM
u did it at last:D
congrates on finishing theresa:)the very best of luck
*go get some rest now*:scream:

05 May 2006, 03:58 AM
every time I see your picture I sing to my self the lyrics from Sailing/Rod Stewart...

I am sailing, I am sailing,
home again 'cross the sea.
I am sailing, stormy waters,
to be near you, to be free.
etc... :)

I really like all your turns and changes you been doing on this... and in the end you have a really good and interesting picture... a job well done Theresa :applause:

05 May 2006, 05:09 AM
Congrats on finishing Theresa. Your hard work will pay off in the long run. Now, get back to work! heh, just kidding. but don't break too long, like I do sometimes -it's not helpful.

05 May 2006, 05:17 AM
Congrats, Theresa! I hope that you got a lot of info from the forumers including myself, Of course I am no Stahlberg, but I hope that you have helped a lot. Thanx for the support and help in my thread! Good luck in the voting!:thumbsup:

Oh I, forget! See you in the next tourney peace!:D

05 May 2006, 09:32 AM
Slav- I'm done now, I just couldn't stand looking at it anymore, heh. It didn't even turn out all that good! :sad: But nevermind, there's another challenge just around the corner :D

Michael: cheers. :beers: I'm glad you submitted yours, I expect to see more of it when the judgin time comes around!

Makaron: Hey, neat song and it does describe the feeling I was going for, good choice!

Beaux: I never stop, I'm now copying a Zorn for the OFDW: ....

Bryce: See you in the next challenge too! I make new friends every time I enter one- aren't they great community places?

05 May 2006, 10:25 AM
every time I see your picture I sing to my self the lyrics from Sailing/Rod Stewart...

I am sailing, I am sailing,
Ha, that's funny I think of music too, first the song I mentioned earlier, Bon Voyage by Sparks, but also Peter Gabriel's wonderful Here comes the Flood

Good job sticking to your guns on this one!! I know how frustrating it can be sometimes. But it really isn't so bad as you seem to think... :D :D And you picked a VERY difficult subject! Now it's time for BEER!

05 May 2006, 10:34 AM
You said it, steven! Too bad there isn't a CGChallenge 'Green Room' where all the finishing entrants can go once they're done and loaf around with beer (or nonalcoholic beverages of their choice) and discuss each others' performances! I could see that becoming very popular!

EDIT: Voice your opinions for a 'green room' here:

05 May 2006, 05:47 PM
I just couldn't leave well alone, could I? :sad:

05 May 2006, 06:07 PM
Hi Theresa, I can see some subtle changes. If you are not happy can you go back? I mean did you save the previous image?

05 May 2006, 06:15 PM
I did...but do you not like this version?

05 May 2006, 06:54 PM
I make new friends every time I enter one- aren't they great community places?

Yeah, I think that is mostly the reason I enter them, and plus the prize, It might be another miss for me though, My entry in my opinion is not strong enough.:sad:

05 May 2006, 07:27 PM
I did...but do you not like this version?

Hi Theresa,
I like your image and how it has evolved very much. It is very dramatic and creative. I thought mainly you were unhappy because of the sad face you posted.:)

05 May 2006, 02:37 PM
Samanthie, I was chastising myself for not being able to sleep without thinking of how I could improve it....

Thanks for your nice crits though!

Beelow: Me too. :D

05 May 2006, 10:22 PM
Very dramatic piece. I feel sarrow for the people in this picture. But I just wanted to drop by real quick and say congrats on finishing this picture. You have a gift man, keep going.


05 May 2006, 02:02 AM
congratulations theresa!

im glad you didnt give up and finished your work.

05 May 2006, 08:40 AM
corey: I'm glad you like it. Thanks!

individium: Me too. :D

05 May 2006, 09:10 PM
Hi Theresa, just though I'd drop by and say thanks for all your help on my thread during the challenge.

Well done on your piece, it really turned out well. I hope you do well in the judging. Great to see you finish it.

It was nice to have a Paddy on the Journey with me. Hope to see you in the next one or else around Dublin some time.


05 May 2006, 10:05 PM
Hey Theresa,

when I asked 'will there be a selection of best pics' I meant: is there going to be a WINNER?:) Is it a competition, this challenge? Can you for example 'come in 34th?' Hehe, I guess not...

I'm just lousy with webbrowsing so a lot of times I scratch the surface of a site (like the forum) and I don't really understand all of it. I then have to ask other people and be disciplined for my clumsiness:). So that's what I was doing:).

I would love to try the next challenge. Watching you was so much fun! I think your last minute changes are good, btw. They make the image even clearer.

I'm gonna join next time and I hope then we can help eachother! (if you considered me a help, that is:))

05 May 2006, 10:54 PM

There's usually a bunch of winners, see this ( page for the winners of the Spectacular challenge. Don't worry, we were all in the same boat at first. I still feel like that when I go over to or sijun. It takes a few months! of posting and hanging out before you feel comfortable joining in with things- the challenges are a great way of making friends and establishing yourself in the forum community. I hope you join in the next- we can help each other, just like you said! :D


07 July 2006, 07:31 AM
Congrats Theresa for winning the community award!! :applause:

07 July 2006, 12:31 PM
Thanks. :D It was a real shock, I must say. I had a lot of fun hanging out here and to be rewarded for it seems almost too good to be true.

I wonder when I'll get the prize? :love: It's so exciting!

07 July 2006, 12:32 PM
If CGTalk ever needs a talk show host it's you! Congratulations on your win and thanks for being there for the people, lending advice and support!

I'm so jealous you got the latest XSI. I'm still at 4.2.

07 July 2006, 02:03 PM
Congrats on winning the Community Award, Theresa - you absolutely deserve it.:thumbsup:

07 July 2006, 04:20 PM
Yay, Theresa! Congratulations! You totally deserve this award - big hugs all around!
Thanks so much for your constant input and feedback during the challenge! (And if you feel like giving more, I've started updating my Brain-bots thread again ;) )


that damned moustache man

07 July 2006, 01:21 PM
Congrats Theresa!

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