View Full Version : 4:4:4 High Definition

06 June 2005, 03:48 PM
4:4:4 High Definition
Wow, sounds great, but unfortunatly most of us can't afford a Sony F950. But most of us CAN afford a Panasonic DVX-100a or a Canon XL2. I personally went with the Canon XL2 because I can stick any of Canon's lenses on the front and it had a native 16:9 chip inside...etc. Well, doing what I often do... dream and research on the internet, I decided to do a search for 4:4:4 color sampling. I come across some college age guys who are trying to work around the highly compressed 4:1:1 DV footage. Just beginning the beta testing stage, they've developed a product that goes into the DVX-100a after the CCD's & A/D Conversion but before the compression process. This gets the "Raw" pictures right off the camera before it has a chance to get compressed, giving you full 4:4:4 color.

The High definition content is created via pixel shift technology. This can be explained much better on the actual website: Reel Stream (

In other words... YES!

07 July 2005, 02:01 PM
wow!! finally highdef for the "poor" RAW IMAGE!!

07 July 2005, 03:42 AM
Here's a great update from the Andromeda team. Beta testing has begun so there are some shots uploaded that just are stunning! More to come!

Here's the actual website:

07 July 2005, 03:18 AM
wow! this is awesome!

08 August 2005, 08:36 PM
This is a good news for all of us. I hope these guys suceed.
We can make independent movies like matrix star wars.
You go guys...

08 August 2005, 02:26 AM
Terrific looking images! Anyone know what does the output records onto? And what sort of data rate that would stream at (250mb/s?)

08 August 2005, 03:10 PM
This is a good news for all of us. I hope these guys suceed.
We can make independent movies like matrix star wars.
You go guys...I'm specifically hoping that people DON'T make movies like The Matrix or Star Wars. :)


08 August 2005, 03:55 AM
I'm specifically hoping that people DON'T make movies like The Matrix or Star Wars. :)


Fred, out of curiosity... why not? I mean... I thought The Matrix had a great story and incredible FX. Many don't like the Star Wars prequels - though I do like all of them. I think it would be great if people could come up with great stories and be able to have equally great FX to help push the story forward. You did very well with the creatures for Primeval - I mean Sasquatch Hunters (still like the original title better!)


08 August 2005, 10:11 PM
I hope people create create stories and great effect, but i would hope anyone will create something better then the matrix or starwars.


08 August 2005, 03:07 AM
Sorry for my late replies. There has been some new uploads that look absouluty fantastic! If you hop on the forums, you can find a reference for a 720p link for Obin's Special Effect shots.

Yossarian!, the way the system works is, it doesn't output an image, it simply sends the raw data to your computer, where your computer "demosaics" the file, or figures out the data and lets you choose any file format you want. The forums have had alot of these questions asked, and it's explained alot better than i can.


once again, here's the link to the website. To see the new footage, click the "Beta" link. (

09 September 2005, 11:09 AM
Lets hope i don't ask anything stupid... but does this technique also work for a Sony HDR-HC1 High Def. cam?

09 September 2005, 05:18 AM
Vortex, not a supid question, I looked at the forums and nothing has been mentioned about the HC1. Right now just the DVX is supported and potentialy the XL2 in the future... maybe. You should hop on the forums over there and post your question. They're usually very fast in posting a response... sometimes in even less than an hr. or two. Thanks!

Here's the link to the forums:
Post under 'Andromeda' forum.

-Brian H.

09 September 2005, 12:10 AM

I just caught this thread. I'd be happy to answer any questions you have about the ReelStream Andromeda.

We are currently at the end of beta and getting very close to the final release of the product for the DVX100/A/B.


10 October 2005, 09:08 AM
Juan, good to see you on here! Can't wait till the final release!

-Brian H.

10 October 2005, 05:34 PM
Any word on if this will be available for XL2?

10 October 2005, 03:31 AM
From what's been said on the forum at (http://, it would depend on the success of the DVX version.

(P.S. I'm an XL2 owner so I've got my fingers crossed.:D )

10 October 2005, 09:09 PM
Wow this is amazing. I have a DVX100a and the images your showing coming out of it with this device are unbelievable. It seems as if you have to always record onto a mac or HD. How are you guys doing this? If this is true using the camera hand held probably wouldnt work unless you wanted to strap a laptop to your back with a big HD. Is this correct or is there a different way of recording the higher def footage?

10 October 2005, 06:33 AM
This looks impressive. Too bad the software is only for Mac.

On the HD captures I see some areas with minor aliasing issues - not too bad, but the overall images look like they could also use some sharpening in post and that only makes the jaggies even worse. I know it's still in beta so I'm guessing they are still ironing some stuff out.

This type of product could change everything when it comes to high quality digital capture.

10 October 2005, 04:16 AM
Any questions should be directed to or via the ( Usually he's faster at responding to messages on there then on here.

11 November 2005, 11:46 AM
awesome idea let me try and c

11 November 2005, 07:59 PM
Hi there,

I'm a huge fan of your work. I think that reel-stream will be seen as a very important step in independent filmmaking.

Are you aware of any Andromeda equiped cameras in Toronto?

Do you have plans to make a version for the HVX line of Panasonic cameras. Do you think that the andromeda system will be able to handle the full 1080x1920?



11 November 2005, 04:39 AM

Andromeda has not shipped out yet. From what I know it is in the final steps of beta testing. I should mention that I am not affiliated with Reel-Stream. I'm simply another artist who sees this as a valuable tool. I came across Reel-Stream in my search for 4:4:4 output from my camera and I felt that this good news needed to be spread.

As far as modding the HVX, I believe this has been heavily discussed in the forums on Reel-Stream.

12 December 2005, 06:13 PM
There is a pretty brutal Vingiette on that shot. I'd like to know it's cause.


12 December 2005, 10:33 PM
If you're refering to the picture on the first page of this thread of a person, yes. The vignetting was caused by a DIY 35mm Adapter that the beta tester was also testing. If you download the actual video clip from reel-streams website, you can tell that later on, he fixes the problem.:D

12 December 2005, 05:41 AM
The folks at Real-Stream have launched their new website and are now taking pre-orders on Andromeda.
I must say that the new website is clean and very easy to navagate. Be sure to check it out at (

12 December 2005, 09:08 AM
Do you have plans to make a version for the HVX line of Panasonic cameras.

The better question is, do you know anybody with a solid state raid array capable of capturing at about 100 megabytes per second? Filmstream recorder anybody?

12 December 2005, 08:15 PM
Sounds great, but as theoneguy asks we need the backend hardware to support this type of capture rate...

12 December 2005, 09:00 PM
Currently, the Andromeda is NOT for the HVX. It is for the DVX. Because of this, there is no need for a fibre disk array.

All you need is a Apple Mac mini or a Power Book. The connection is via usb2. Because the video is 8bit/10bit SD 4:4:4 or HD (uncompressed). This does not exceed the bandwidth of the usb. (Frame rate is 24p NTSC ONLY.)

So it IS a dream come true, and NO speedy disk array needed... Just a 7200rpm drive.:D

Hope this helps debunk some of the myths.

-Brian Harbauer

12 December 2005, 09:03 PM
Anybody got a spare $6500 lying around?

If I did, I probably would not be buying a camcorder, 4:4:4 or not. It's great technology, but I'd rather live with a GL2 and take the inferior image quality.

12 December 2005, 02:11 AM
Anybody got a spare $6500 lying around?

If I did, I probably would not be buying a camcorder, 4:4:4 or not. It's great technology, but I'd rather live with a GL2 and take the inferior image quality.

if i shot enough stuff to justify the purchase i would definitely buy one. a camera that offers comparable quality could easily cost you ten times as much. it might not be the right purchase for you, but for someone shooting a low budget feature, it's ****ing great. i can't believe you're complaining about the price when it's soooooooooooooooooooooooooo much cheaper than any other way to get uncompressed 4:4:4 10bit HD.

12 December 2005, 12:47 AM
First off, the solution only costs $6500 if you DON'T already own a DVX. The solution only costs $3000 for those who ALREADY own a DVX. They offer both solutions so people DON'T need to spend $3500 for another camera.

The system is not for everyone. For dbates, the GL2 is a solid camera. On the otherhand jbo has done enough work with compressed footage that he KNOWS why this solution is so great.

01 January 2006, 10:20 PM
This was posted by Xenophon Merkuris on the Reel-Stream Forum. (

Here is the link to the thread on the forum.

Pretty impressive I think.
-Brian H.

01 January 2006, 12:52 AM
Reel Stream LLC announces the immediate availability of the Andromeda Data Acquisition System.
The system consists of a hardware modification of the Panasonic DVX100(A/B). Once modified
with Andromeda, the DVX is capable of 4:4:4 10bit RGB Uncompressed output at resolutions
exceeding 720p High Definition.

The controlling software suite, SculptorHD, has been designed from the ground up under the
guidance of filmmakers from all levels of production. From User-Definable 3 channel LUTs to a
real-time RGB histogram, SculptorHD has been developed with the workflow of today's busy
filmmaker in mind. Running the gamut of productions, Andromeda and Sculptor will conform to
the production needs of an independent filmmaker or a Hollywood Blockbuster VFX artist.

The Andromeda upgrade along with the controlling SculptorHD software suite is scheduled at
$3,000 USD. Reel Stream supports educational pursuits; an educational discount for students
and staff is available as well.

For further information on the Andromeda System, please visit (

01 January 2006, 04:54 PM
Nice! Very good work! Thanks.

02 February 2006, 05:27 AM
EIA Resolution Chart Posted

03 March 2006, 07:29 PM
There are some pictures and video that's been uploaded to look at. Please note that the clips where exported using early demosaicing processing and the new algorithm is much better.
Full resolution uncompressed tiff's are linked on the forum here:

04 April 2006, 05:15 AM
Since this threads topic is about 4:4:4 High Definition, I thought it would be ok to post this link on here. Check it out, it's worth the time.

NOTE: This has nothing to do with Reel-Stream other than the fact that both acquire an uncompressed HD 4:4:4 image.

4k 60p Super 35mm sensor $17,500 (

There is also an active discussion with the man behind the curtain, Jim Jannard.

I'd like to hear any of your thoughts on here aswell. Get ready for the revolution.

05 May 2006, 12:58 AM
Effing crap Brian! I wonder how it handles though. I haven't used any cmos censor cams yet.

05 May 2006, 05:21 AM
It's got my attention, I'm looking forward to seeing the pictures taken with it this fall.

07 July 2006, 03:05 AM
Good news! Andromeda is on it's way to support pal!

09 September 2006, 05:51 PM
Red has a new webpage! (

Red Digital Cinema has also shown footage starting yesterday at IBC. Frame grabs from the camera should be available soon. More info and links to come. But for now...

09 September 2006, 06:13 PM
I whas at IBC yesterday and there stand was kinda sucky... it wasnt even finished when i was there. But it seemed i want home to early because on there flyer it said they where going to show footage. I'm there monday again but they dont preview then anymore...

09 September 2006, 04:51 AM
I wouldn't be surprised that the booth "sucked". Red is just starting out as a company and they exploit the fact that they're new. All their effort at this moment has been towards getting the camera ready. From what I understand the images are everything you could hope for in a digital cinema camera. They may not have the most "flashy" booth at the moment, but they have great product. I'm sure their branding isn't far behind. Remember the camera is still underdevelopment and specs are still changing. If they didn't have much print material out, that's probably because they don't want people to take those specs as final. Alot of the "big" announcements have been taking place online in forums such as dvinfo or dvxuser. For a camera that does 4k at $17,500 you really can't argue with that. I'm really looking forward to seeing these screen grabs!

09 September 2006, 11:41 AM
you've got a point there that I overlooked... all they did till now is invested in a future product and made no income yet.

I'm wondering on what kind of machine and monitor you can edit in full res mode or just for playback in that matter... are there any monitors/panels that support that kind of hi-res motion sequences?

09 September 2006, 04:50 PM
I'm wondering on what kind of machine and monitor you can edit in full res mode or just for playback in that matter... are there any monitors/panels that support that kind of hi-res motion sequences?

I think they showed the footage with a 4k projector (sony - 4096 x 2160 resoltion - cost $90,000). But you make a good point. I'm not sure if there is any monitor (at least one that doesn't cost far more than the camera system itself) capable of displaying the full res image.

I'm still skeptical of this camera, but it seems like it might actually be shaping up to be a real product. I'm still curious to see how possible/practical it will be to store and edit the massive data created by it. Uncompressed it will be about 300 MB/sec! I'm guessing working with the compressed 30 MB/sec data will be the more common workflow.

09 September 2006, 07:39 PM
Yes, you guys are right. I really don't know of any monitor that supports 4k. And if there was, it would probably be out of the indie filmmakers budget. I doubt people will be really shooting at 4k right away, but it is ready for the future when you eventually do want to shoot in 4k. On the otherhand, you could shoot at 4k, then down res to 2k or whatever format, so if later on you wanted to re-release your film, it's already in a better format, just pull out the original footage. Yeah, I believe most people will be shooting with the wavelet codec, 343MB per second...yeah, a raid that would be able to take that would be out of the price range. They're saying that the wavelet could get better yet and have an even lower bitrate, and that's quoted at 4k. So if you were to shoot at 2k, I would think the bitrate would be even less. And shooting at 2k you can use the apple cine display, and a blackmagic kona or the bluefish or something along those lines.
Also red has stated that it's very commited to the workflow, which means integration with you editors and what to do with the footage after it's been shot, which is really what's needed for indie's aswell. I think as commited they are to making this succed, they're certainly going to make sure the workflow is as robust as the camera. Who knows, maybe they'll decide to make a 4k monitor?


09 September 2006, 02:06 PM
Todat i went back again to the RED stand on IBC2006 and talked with the guys there. De sensor (that they self developed) is able to record a max. 5k size resolution the guy of Red told me. They see It as a thing for the future, for indie film makers that will last. A camera you buy because its ready for the upcoming 5 years, so you dont have to film in 4k (but i know i would!!! :P). Also they showed me a very highres monitor that almost had a 4k resolution though the refresh rate was 13... but its a beginning. They also showed footage on the 4k digital cinema projector from sony in IBC's theater.

A nice feature of the camera is that you'r able to change the sensor when they make a newer and better one. Is'nt that sweet?

Recording is being done on flashcards, HDD, raid-hdd or for the future holodrives...

Oh and one thing, did you guys knew that it is the owner of Oakley (you know... the famous sunglasses?) is the investor and owner of Red? Now you do ;)

The cam should be ready begin 2007... sweeeeeet, all i have to do now in work my ass of for only the body worth $17.500,-

09 September 2006, 02:33 PM
Lol, thanks for the live update from IBC! I so wanted to go, but i'm just a college student so time and money did not allow. Jim Jannard is an amazing guy. This monitor you were talking about, were they developing it or was it another company like Viewsonic? Jim Jannard the man himself and his team of technicians post over on dvinfo and they respond and talk with you like ever other person. It's really cool, especially since they've made changes to the camera based on input from people's suggestions/ideas on those threads. I think you're as much or more excited than I am now!:scream: I hear you, i'm trying to think of ways to get money to purchase one too. And I agree with you, I'd probably shoot all in 4k aswell:D .


Again thanks for that great update!

09 September 2006, 02:42 PM
i did not scooped all the internet around so the info was new for me... as it is for some other guys around here i guess. so thats why i'm telling ;) I'm a college student too, though my luck is that i live in the netherlands...

I think the monitor is indeed from Viewsonic...

09 September 2006, 05:54 PM
New RED 1 still uploads!

These are very low rez compressed frame grabs from the video that was shown at IBC.
Also keep in mind these were taken before the sensor was "profiled".
After these pictures were taken it was found out that the sensor has an ASA of 160.
Graeme also has a new debayering algorithm that has been implimented after these pictures were taken.
Footage taken with the new algorithm should be posted within the next week. As well as full rez uncompressed tif's.


09 September 2006, 07:38 PM
these are indeed framegrabs from the footage shown @ ibc... there a bitt small though... cant see the full power of this baby at all.

09 September 2006, 05:31 AM
Hey Rick, I guess this was posted not long after I posted here. It's a 2k frame grab from the stuff at IBC. There are a couple dead pixels, but it's WIP stuff.
As quoted by Jim Jannard:
We noted that there is "no dead pixel correction". It is pretty easy to do (map and correct). We just didn't want to wait any longer to post a shot. We could have "fixed" them in Photoshop, but we choose to take a more honest approach. All sensors have dead pixels. But you never see them because the other companies wait to show you stuff when they are done. We are willing to show "work in progress". Don't worry about this. It is the least of our problems. :-)


Here's the link.

09 September 2006, 02:00 PM
Cool Brian! looks cool... a bit weird around her mouth though ;)

at first i was a bit sceptic about RED, but to be honest... the've changed me all the way ;) i like the way they aproach this, in a more open way. Just like they said; company's like Sony just show the final product and thats it. RED does it more the indie way. Redrock has the same sort aproach on there products. Showing WIPs and aksing costumers for tips etc. And not even to speak about the price range!!

Dead pixels are normal, and it shows that it isnt taken from a DSLR. Only thing i'm a bit afraid of is the color range... all the pictures shows me a bit mat kinda color (i hope its correct what i'm saying ;) )

Hopefully they will show us some 5K pictures soon ;)

09 September 2006, 02:27 AM
Here's an 8bit jpeg @4K

09 September 2006, 03:17 AM
$100,000 REWARD
Red offices were broken into last night. Red and other sensitive information was stolen.
This is horrible news. The Red team has assured us that they will not miss a beat, (maybe a day or two) but they will not let this hold them back.

Everyone, Pass The Word.
The more eyes the better.

09 September 2006, 07:49 AM
horrible! any updates?

What do you think? corporate terror? Sony or Arri? ;)

09 September 2006, 09:39 PM
Has anyone bought the system yet? Is it worth it?

09 September 2006, 12:12 AM
Which system are you refering to? The one from reel-stream or the red camera? The red camera is still in development. It's to be released first part of the year. My thoughts are yes, it's worth it.

The system from reel-stream has been on the market close to a year now. I've only heard good things from people who have it.


09 September 2006, 12:19 AM
I'm sorry, I meant Red, I didn't see that other system until I went back and read a little more. I have heard of Andromeda as well, but I was apprehensive. I think the Red system is awesome, I hope they can find a good practical way to capture live RAW footage. (I haven't read too much about this yet). I think Andromeda is great, but ultimately, something like Red is going to be the future. So many people keep saying "digital won't take over for another 20 years", but we'll see about that. If film companies act like oil companies, then that might be the case, but I never underestimate the speed of tecnological progress. Are there any links to any actual projects that have used the Red system?


09 September 2006, 01:54 AM
The guys from red literally just started getting stuff off the sensor not too long before IBC which took place a week or two ago. So there's been no "beta testors". The only images we have taken from red is on the red website gallery.
I'd have to agree with what you said. Right now digital cinema cameras are priced so high, so it will be interesting what this camera will do to the market.


P.S. There was to be some raw pictures and some greenscreen stuff in the next week or two, but that was before they had their burglary. I don't know how much that affected them.

09 September 2006, 12:20 PM
Now it has been mentioned... If it is going to be released begin next year they are on a short timeframe... Do you think they are going to beta-test it?

I would sign myself up to be a beta tester... i'm doing little indie projects myself so that would be the right scenario for them...

09 September 2006, 09:17 PM
I was reading over at DVinfo today and Jim happend to post something that answered your question.

Time for a full update.

We stated long ago that our timeline was to show 4k footage in the fall (we were two weeks early at IBC), to assemble 1st cameras in December 2006 (we are still on track) and to beging shipping early 2007. We think that is March or April-ish (things can change).

We fully believe that we can assemble several (maybe 20-30) cameras in December for shakedown. Please don't email your request to test one of them. We will use these to fine tune everything, including the user interface. They will all be aluminum bodies. Most will be PL mount.

From now until deliveries in 2007, we will take the time to fully explain REDCODE RAW and why this should be your 1st choice for shooting. We will offer traditional RGB recording that you are all familiar with, so you don't necessarily have to pay attention. But you should. We feel very strongly about this.

The primary advantage of the RED ONE camera is shooting an incredible image with a full size S35mm size sensor with a myriad of options and choices. We want to make sure that you have a flexible workflow and sensible storage options. REDCINE will be a key part of our program and we strongly recommend that you consider this as something to become familiar with over the next few months.

You can expect a fairly comprehensive and easy to understand explanation of REDCODE RAW and REDCINE beginning November 1st. You can also expect to see prototypes that most closely approximate the final camera and RAIL/CAGE program at that time. Specs for the 18-85mm zoom will also be posted at that time, including MTF charts. The same goes for the 300mm.

We have done considerable work since IBC and you should expect to see significant advancements from what we have shown so far.

As a final note for now, we are currently working on thermal management for our camera. There will be two FPGA's onboard to manage all that is going on inside. It is like a nuclear reactor inside your toaster. Quite a challenge. Just the way we like it. If you get nervous (I'm not), go buy a set of gloves. :-)

We stated early on that we would include you in the process. We appreciate all the feedback we have received so far. Many changes have been made from ideas and opinions made by forum members. But we are getting near lock-down. It is getting pretty exciting from my point of view.


09 September 2006, 10:02 PM
My biggest concern is how "usable" the actual camera is as far as features and ability to use add-ons. Many cameras by themselves aren't completely usable, including film cameras. Many times it's all about the add-ons. Will RED be able to support all the add-ons?

10 October 2006, 04:36 AM
I guess what do you mean by add-ons? If you mean stuff like mattebox's and such, yes.

10 October 2006, 04:38 AM
Red has released some 1k with skin tones. It's the bubble gum pop girl.

11 November 2006, 01:16 AM
"This is REDCODE 100x compression! 4k and a 556k file. Shipping REDCODE will be 10x compression. Shot with the RED 300mm lens.


12 December 2006, 08:37 AM
A little late as most of this has been out for a month or so.

1080p clip is available for download:

A couple 4k jpg's are available to view:

Some uncompressed 16bit tif's are available to download aswell.
Tests were conducted by special effects cinematographer David Stump IMDB PROFILE HERE. ( David was the VFX DP for both xmen and X2 as well as many other films.
(These tests are greenscreen)

(These are exposure tests with notes)


01 January 2007, 05:51 AM
Well on first glance, I love the look of these tests - who wouldn't? As with any seemingly too-good-to-be-true scenario, I'm cautiously optimistic; this really would change everything. Obviously, we'll see a lot more from future tests, but I'm squirreling away $17,500 starting now, just in case. :)


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