View Full Version : Master and Servant 2D Entry: Berter Akyol

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03 March 2005, 11:58 PM
Berter Akyol has entered the Master and Servant 2D.

Challenge Page (

Latest Update: Final Image: Final (


03 March 2005, 12:09 AM
I have gone through the masses of entries, and believe that my depiction has not been covered yet. Shall it already be taken.. I would apreciate a warning.

My idea is to draw a man, whome has sunken into the bottom of his drinking bottle. not literally, but metaphorically.

The scene is going to be set on a wall in an alley with crouched down and leaning. I have not exactly decided on the angles to go for. But I presume that it shall be a sort of fisheye.. to give the whole nature a 'drunkenness'.

That said.. I will be down to making a few sketches to put up, first chance I get.

03 March 2005, 02:56 AM (

I have done a variaty of sketchs trying to solve what I would like the expression on his face to look like.(I want to sort of blend the composition around it)

The character being dark haired (Hair being a real mess) and really waisted. was my first guidline. I drew him (Especially the eyes) from a few angles.So after a dear set of face sketches; I came up with something like this...

You are going to have to forgive my messy post. As when I do the first set of kroki sketches, I tend to really just rush a lot of scribbles here and there.

The reason I am posting THIS particular set of faces is to share a sort of idea it proposed: What say I just mount this image also as an overlay. The faces were just drawn where ever I found an empty space, but this particular image I sort of liked.

03 March 2005, 03:46 AM (

I hope that it is not rude of me to just post updates before anyone got to comment on the going.
But well here it is.. the Final expression I am going to be going for. I am not sure though if I should mirror the image or not. This is again JUST a speedy sketch.. but it will give an idea on how the guy is oging to be facing us.

03 March 2005, 03:54 AM (

I had a few attempts to draw out the hands(I am going to be going for something like the bottom left). I had a hard time there, since I wanted to have him grasp it like his life depended on it, but was always in the limitation of the size of his hand being smaller than the diameter of the bottle. I didn\'t want to make him massive. Weak infact. So well will see if I do better in the original sketches.

03 March 2005, 03:55 AM
Those are some rad facial expressions and you've got a really original concept to boot! Good luck on this!

03 March 2005, 03:59 AM
Thank you;I am glad you liked them.. they were from a 'few' pages of work. It is sort of embarassing to post everything. :)

I hope the concept is as original as you would compliment.

03 March 2005, 05:35 AM
I must say I really like this... I think it's going to be awesome... good luck.

03 March 2005, 12:54 PM
Hey Black, I noticed your original concept with the variety of faces. It looked like a montage. Very cool. I havn't seen anyone else doing a montage, plus your theme lends itself perfectly to that kind of painting.

Keep up the good work. :applause:

My Master & servant :

My Web Site :

03 March 2005, 01:36 PM
Subscribing! This is gonna be cool. Can't wait to see it. I love the expression. I also like the idea of using the fisheye view:scream:

Thank you for your kind words on my entry thread.
Keep the sketches coming

03 March 2005, 07:42 PM
looks really good.. i really like your style to draw things up
superb idea, keep going.. and good luck...

03 March 2005, 12:35 AM (

Thank you all for your kind words and support. For my selfish sake: I hope you have a point.
This evening I just pasted the images together to sort of have an idea on how I would like it all to gather up onto.
I'll probably be drawing the final sketch by using this as a sort of template, on the rest of the night. But since I have a dear lot of other things to do. It may take till tomorrow soonest before an update.


03 March 2005, 09:21 PM (

Last night I did a bit more on this, but had too much work to do else.

The sketches done earlier were done by pencil and paper. But from this point on I shall be using the computer and my mouse to draw and paint the rest.(No tablet :'( )

I moved and scaled the guy around a bit.. and rotated the position of his raised hand. I tried also to work on the hand grabbing his face(Never really liked it) But disn't really get to finalise it.

Here is a little sketch update of how I moved the components around and how I redrew some of it now that I know what the elements are going to be looking like all together.

03 March 2005, 09:26 PM (

Ok Ok.. once again I am posting updates on top of each other.. but I didn't have a chance to post the other ealier today.
I lightend the tint of the Eye and face.. and introduced a colour variation. As much as I liked the first ides of the colours. I wanted him to have a hint of 'Nicotine' all over. Especially on his fingers and face.
I think I liked what I have so far.. and would like to start on my colouring WIP now :)

Ofcourse this is a rough sketch and things shall be painted more decently in time. But shall you have any comments or advices... they would be most welcome.


03 March 2005, 09:42 PM
I like the idea, it had crossed my mind but you beat me too it ;) Putting him in the right environment could really sell the emotion of the piece, build a sense of being alone, desperation, etc. Coming along nicely tho, keep it up.

03 March 2005, 11:32 PM
There are works that awe me with some spectacular grandiosity, and there is rhis, a simple, powerful psihologycal study. excellent work:thumbsup:

03 March 2005, 11:43 AM
Lol; I WAS wondering how come no one had come up with it... I hope that at least I can try and fullfill your expectations from the simiallar subject. Though actually I don't see much a harm shall you also have a go for it. As long as you don't copy and paste my images, it should be ok.

It is a subject that like most could be depicted deep or Shallow. I hope I can get as deep a presentation going as you all have hoped for. I shall get into some painting to put some more 'food' on the 'plate' :)

Nebezial; So mine doens't have any spectacular grandiosity? :cry: :sad:

Naa I get what you mean.. :)

Thank you very much for the kind words!


03 March 2005, 02:26 PM (

Ok I know I had said that I would not use the pencile anymore.. AND I know I had stated that the last post would be the last sketch I would upload...
But I had some problems with the inbetween 'Line-Art' bit. Normally I would be painting this guy.. painting the background and then duplicating the background and destorting it to become a refraction in the bottle as well.
But then I would have to come back and REDRAW it all, since my line art now would be incorrect! So now I have to make sure I go mathemetical so the images match up some what the same.
Sooo I just had a crude print-out on a much smaller scale so I can have enough room to draw outside the boundries. Then I sort of sketched things out and tried to set a few things in there final positions.
Last of all I tried to draw out the walls he would be leaned against.
(Sorry again for the messiness)

03 March 2005, 10:40 AM
Well this deep perspective just made it more spectacular:D

03 March 2005, 11:37 AM
I couldn't help my self and started painting the image yesterday.. It's not looking too bad.. and infact I am having alot of fun in the process. But I am just held back now for the darned line art bit. And can't post the painted versions til I get that step up then out of the way.
Not exactly that I am complaining.. but the detail I am obligated to convert into a lineart is really pulling things to the difficulter side. I am going to be done with my work at around 5 or so your time.. will be starting on the line around then. So you can possibly expect an update late tonight.

Thank you for supporting me this much... I hope it turns out to deserve your kind words.


03 March 2005, 10:07 AM
OOOh dont worry, i believe u r up to challwnge. I lovwe the colours, they have that aquarelle, thing going on. it will be a very powerful image.just dont do a mistake of rushing it, i know I ruined a good deal of my works that way:thumbsup:

03 March 2005, 10:12 AM
OooOoooh... now this looks like a diiferent take on things... i both subject matter and composition.

I'll look forward to uodates... i'm intrigued...

03 March 2005, 01:20 PM
Thank you Nebezial, DuddleBug; for your kind words.

I wish that I could actually rush it. But I have a handful, and I am obligated to give long breaks in between. So I have to do a few hours of boring stuff to get the chance to do more fun ones.

As for the composition, I have slightly changed the heads around. I seperated the four heads at the bottom and spread them out. Kind of tried to achieve a connection between the forms.

The line art is halve finished .. and I shall be working more on it later on today. When I post it you should get a better idea of the changes I am talking about.

Thanks again,


03 March 2005, 01:54 PM
Whooa waiit a second, i just read on one thread that u r using a mouse.... RESPECT man, u just leveled up in my eyes...alot!!!

03 March 2005, 03:42 AM
Yeah, sadly thats true..
It is majorly because I use the computer for programming and modeling I guess.

I really don't know. We never really were able to set a tablet here.
I preffer my oldtimer airbrush and oils when I want to create a scheme.

My habbit of digitally painting comes from the days that a thing called an optical mouses were even pure fiction.

Well Thank you again for the kind words. Hopefully tomorrow you shall see how I try to line-Art with a mouse (Oh wait.. I meant later today)


03 March 2005, 03:46 AM
Woah your latest update is very cool. Sweet perspe ctive going on there man, I cant wait to see you start painting this piece!:bounce:

03 March 2005, 09:13 AM
Good sketches dude. I like his facial expression. Good start.


03 March 2005, 07:37 PM
look really good to me...

04 April 2005, 11:57 AM (

Maybe from the image you can have a better idea of what was actually taking me so long with preparing a Line-Art version of it...
There is still a lot of stuff to do, but I figured I might as well post a 'so-far' state.

As you can figure, the drawing of this was seriously painful. And it demanded serious concentration!

I followed two basic techniques in trying to achieve the clean lines other than drawing it with a steady hand;

In some cases I just coloured in areaís (Such as the hair or the eye-brows) on a separate layer; Ctrl-Selected the layer (This contour selects the objects in it for those who donít use the same program). Converted the selection into a border of 7 pixels. Then filled it in.

In other cases I just drew a dot.. and then Shift drew another dot (When Shift is pressed down in the process. It draws a direct connection line between the last bit you drew until where you begin your new drawing) and just kept on doing this until I was around the whole thing. I especially had to go for this technique on the outer contours of the bottle.

I have the more faces to come still. And unfortunately much more work I want to do on the bottle with itís refractions.

Any comments and crits are most welcome (Oh wait.. besides any advise to add in something inside the bottle. Any change there is NOT going to happen... I REALLY canít go through it again!)

04 April 2005, 12:11 PM
this is an excellent lineart man, damn i curse the moment when i have to do it, urs is so clean and precise:thumbsup:

04 April 2005, 12:19 PM
Trust me my friend, when I say it came with a PRICE! :sad:

Well honestly? I canít wait to start either!!!
It is very hard to explain how un-fun it is to be doing this faze of the project. As soon as it is finished. I think I shall be some what having a go at it while resting.. Instead of making it Ďworkí for my free time.

I am glad you like them. I draw well... but I am not too good on giving expressions with lines as to compair with painting. I hope things go as I planned.

Kiitos samoin :buttrock:

Thank you all for taking the time to pop in...

As for the update; The canvas is a little bit bigger than my final peace; I like moving things around often. And it always helps to have a bit outside the frames border. So the image it self is actually that frame you see there. I may shift things a little bit, but I doubt you would see much a change once the Line-art is done with.

Because I am going to try to make the painting as Ďsoberí as the main character, I have no definite lines to where what is going to be. And thatís why at parts you can see the some elements through others in the image here.

Well I am going to have to get back to work.

Til later;


04 April 2005, 04:56 PM
I just found this thread, and had to offer my compliments. Very original look and a challenging perspective. I especially like the finger prints on the opposite side of the bottle, but it looks like he's got 6 fingers on one hand (4 in front and two on the other side). Good decision to make the bottle such a central element in the picture--I'd have never thought of that and you've really done a bang up job on the distortion through the glass. Looks like it needs to be rotated about 5 degrees counter clockwise, though to make the booze level horizontal.

I wish you luck and can't wait to see updates. I'm off to check out your 3d entry now. :bounce:

04 April 2005, 05:14 PM
I am VERY flattered.. thank you for taking the time and going through the trouble of examining the work. And ofcourse for your kind compliments.

Now about the second finger;

I couldn't exactly follow you there.. are you talking about the droplet shaped mark? Thatís the secularity. That and one more at the bottom of it are put on an overlapping layer to remind me about the shape of the bottle.

As for the 7.34 degree's rotation to get the liquid horizontal, I know what you mean and once again thank you for the observation. But the liquid is not meant to be horizontal.. it is in reaction to the inertia from a few seconds back. I should no keep in mind to make that a little more clear.As you say it it has started to disturb me also
The rings you see on the level of the drink are again a layer under laying in order for me to again not forget the form as I distort them. The state it is in now is a lot more dynamic looking. But I shan't post until I am clear with it this time.

I can not really insist that the distortions are a hundred percent correct.. in fact if any of you go hard on it I am sure that many can find ways to prove me wrong. The whole image was more drawn out of a 'habit' of airbrushing and photo-real illustrating. After a while you get an idea of the general feel of it, and start constructing to what seems to be right.

A small advice to those that would like to attempt such a thing would be: to not be an idiot like my self, and to use a model. Shall they not have a model to ref from: you should have a reflection of the refraction the bottle has made of the background also as a reflection on the surface of the liquid, and a mirror of it inside the liquid. (Does this make any sence?)

Going to be chekking your work aswel now.. (With great expectations!)


04 April 2005, 05:56 PM
Hi, your llineart drawing is just amazing, now i understand why you said it is more mathematics than drawing.... huh.. beatiful.. hardly can wait to see some more of your art...

04 April 2005, 06:03 PM
wow... this is 10 times better than ur 3d entry. dont have time for a further comment heaps of work. just wanted to wish u the best of luck and im subscribing right now.

04 April 2005, 08:03 AM
That's a pretty clean line art dude. It's a little unclear on what's going on at the bottle area, but i think once you colour it, it should be more readable. Your piece has a very surrealistic feeling to it, cool. I'll keep up with your posting.


04 April 2005, 08:39 AM
yaaay!! lineart that confuses u until its coloured,just like mine!!

i like,and nice idea!

04 April 2005, 09:19 AM
Lol; Thanks NOOB!;Arc80;

Yeah it is a bit of a mess isn't it :).
It is actually alot easier for me to figure things out...there is a dear diffrence between what you see here and the res I am working with (5906x7677 at 300dpi). But even still it is a bit confusing. And if you guys think THIS is confusing.. you should see the latest form of it.

If I get done with work, I'll try to post you guys a close up.

I think I am treating it like an airbrush work, where you have to draw everything out and then transfer it and cut out the masking film accordingly:shrug:

Thanks once again for the support!


04 April 2005, 09:22 AM
I like the idea berter......Plus the line art is so clean......Coming along with this real are one of the few doing 5D here....2D and 3D......thats great to see............:thumbsup:

04 April 2005, 09:35 AM
Hahahaha.. lol never thought of it this way!

As I get myself around to working on it.. I keep curcing to the moment I had decided to not prepare this as a 3D prehand!
But then again... I missed working in such illustrations (As radical as that may sound), so not TOO sorry of my choice.

Thank you for your generous words Virtuoso

04 April 2005, 10:40 AM
its not that confusing,just confusing at first.

and my opinion,sumthin that makes ur stare at it for over 30sec is a great piece of art.

it shows interest.

04 April 2005, 06:47 AM
Black, sorry I didn't get to your thread sooner. You have a really powerful image going on here. Excellent concept and use of metaphor. Your drawings have a tremendous amount of emotion. I was attracted to them at first glance. However, though excellent, the linework didn't pack as much emotion for me. Upon reading further through your thread I noticed your comment about paint, I'm not worried any longer that you will bring that emotion back through the paint process. Your small color tests confirm that. I really like your use of alternating diagnols down the composition. The expressions are excellent also. I'm looking forward to your paint process. Cheers!

04 April 2005, 07:49 AM
well i think everybody before me said it all better than me...incredible...good luck :thumbsup:

04 April 2005, 05:41 PM (

I have FINALLY completed the bottle to what it's worth. And thought I'd post a close up to it.

Now I have only three more heads to draw out. I shall be sparing some time for this today, so expect an update before the day ends in the GMT time zone.

The way this thing worked out was some what explained earlier. Unless you would be obligated to create such an effect in lineArt aswel... the better workflow would be to just paint streaks of matching colour and then to distort them with the photo editing software you are using.

Well expect an update soon.


04 April 2005, 05:45 PM
MAN U VE GOT PATIENCE!!!:thumbsup: , seriously, u r giving everything to this lineart, cant wait to see ur colouring

04 April 2005, 05:52 PM
NOOB!; I couldn't agree more. And I am ever greatful for your taking such time on it.

SideAche; No, no... there is nothing to say sorry for.. I have not even had the chance to look at all of the entries yet. How can I complain that you didn't have the same?
As for the painting bit. I have generally been comfortable in painting... And I hope I can live up to your confidence. Emotion is THE key in this work. And if I miss out on that. I guess I would be pouring my own spoon full of sugar to so much work.
Thank you for your generouse compliments!

Oro; Thank you for paying a visit.. I hope you like it more as things develope.

Nebezial; I know I have complained about it earlier. But I am really not enjoying this. I persoally don't like the fact of having to line art something I am going to be painting over. But my logic is very simple: Since there are too many outstanding entries.. which have shown the care to do every step perfectly, it would be fairly foolish not to follow up.
And I think it may help those that would like to judge my work to have a better idea on how things developed, since my normal sketching has grown to be too messy.

Thank you all once again. I am starting on finishing it right away!


04 April 2005, 10:11 PM (

Ok now...

This is the basic lay-out I am going to be going for. (At least the amount of it that I was able to translate into lines)

The image may change as it progresses... since the most of it is going to be jind of blended into the underlaying. Because I am going to see if I can manage to get the image itself a little 'drunk' aswell, with such an effect.

But in any case I doubt there shall be too much a change to what you see here. If things DO go extremely diffrent; I'll go back and update my line Art.

FINALLY I can enjoy working on this!

Hope you like it so far;


04 April 2005, 12:04 AM
This is looking good so far, Black! Original concept, and some nice execution so far. I really like what you did to get the effect of the distortion within the bottle. Wish I had something constructive and helpful o add, as youve been a big help in my thread (thanks, by the way) but I can't think of anything to say. Looking forward to seeing where your colors take it. Good luck!


04 April 2005, 02:03 PM (

I have started on(this time seriously) painting the image...

And shall be going as highly detailed as I can where the image's 'emotion' can afford it.
The eyes and the hands are of these parts. I personally believe that they truely reflect a person even without the rest of the peaces ever painted.

Since my entry can afford to be broken up into peaces, then to be blended into a whole... I am going to try and post details of segments on a regular basis. hoping for you to help point out a few mistakes for me.

As things grow, I tend to give a shot at the bigger picture such as to ensure that it is not all lost in small details.

This is the first of many to come (Bare with me please): It is of the left eye of the face in the center of the image. If you click on the image you shall be seeing it in it's original resolution that I have painted it in.

I have not yet started on the eyelashes.. but intend to do so. Honestly I just don't know how I can do them in order to live up to the quality the eye has so far.

I hope you like it;


04 April 2005, 02:08 PM
oookaaay... thats... impressedi bet u r celebrating for getting that whole lineart behind u, the whole idea of lineart is kinda absurd to me too. it looks very convincing so far, gave me the shivers:eek: :thumbsup:

04 April 2005, 02:16 PM
This is a tradition from a few years of working like this... As I had said earlier, in airbrushing you do the EXACT annoying, frusrating, time taking, disturbing, never ending, stupid thing of redrawing what you already drew.. then even worse you spend the EXACT same time slowly cutting it out!!

You are HELL right am I celebrating!!! I HATED IT!!
hey. I feel alot better now!

Thanks Nebezial :)

Glad you liked it.. I am now having my doubts about the structur of his face. But I really don't want to go through all that 'suff' again. Going to see what I can do with it.

04 April 2005, 04:52 PM
dude, very nice. That eye looks so realistic, very cool. Can't wait to see more details. This is going to be interesting.

My master & servant entry (

04 April 2005, 04:56 PM
Great work so far on the image :) I like the texture feel to the skin and the milkyness of the eyes! Keep up the great work! I will check back often to see how your work progresses.

04 April 2005, 05:15 PM
Very nice detail on the eye and the skin tone. Nothing to add about the image composition at the moment, so I'll wait for updates.

04 April 2005, 03:01 AM
This is a tradition from a few years of working like this... As I had said earlier, in airbrushing you do the EXACT annoying, frusrating, time taking, disturbing, never ending, stupid thing of redrawing what you already drew.. then even worse you spend the EXACT same time slowly cutting it out!!
Lol. hahahahaha, thats why i use a badger gfx and work 99% freestyle (airbrushing). the very very little 100% sharp areas i can still brush up with a freehand template then. most of the time not need to do that, but that is just my messy way I brush. i love fast working. having an idea. work it up spontanious. and lineart is painfully screwing down that way of work i normally do. congrats on have em done. still have that in front of me and (pain) am not very happy 'bout that.
Happy painting mate, great deatil you started, looking forward to your show.
oh, and best luck and have loadsa fun!

04 April 2005, 07:31 AM
Nice tones and mood...the feeling you get from the picture is strong and it's still quite early....The eye is very effective and compelling......Nice berter......Keep this up....:thumbsup:

04 April 2005, 09:32 AM
very effective and powerful colours... when can we expect some larger scale colouring? keep it up

04 April 2005, 06:38 PM
again..speechless :thumbsup:

04 April 2005, 07:31 AM
That eye is AWESOME. Great concept and sketches. Will watch this one with interest. Good luck. :bounce: Claireabella

04 April 2005, 07:33 AM
Wow this is looking a bit different! The rendering on that eye is really creepy, but in a cool way! ;) You're going to have fun with all those reflections! Excellent!

04 April 2005, 08:10 AM
Wow boy! Alot of compliments. Thank you guys!
I am sorry for freezing th updates though I have every wish to go on with alot to show. But I have noticed the amount of people I have rudely kept wiating on my 3D thread only because I wasn't happy with my main character. So I used up wy rare free time on them. I WILL how ever update soon. I am REALLY enjoying doing this.

Thank you very much. I had done a variaty of distortions that I had thought I would pull of with painting it realistically. But things didn't work as good as you can see from the image. I have shaped the eye a bit better now and desaturated it a little. Hope it will work to the better.

Thank you for passing by.
I went through some variations for the eye. And this tint did give a creepy and unhealthy result. While painting I used an oppastiy of 8 or something on my brush, and got it to multiply... and then constantly changed colours to my liking. The secret of this would be to add layers and layers of paint. Nothing too difficult. But you have to have constant contact with your concept and your image so as to not loose ends.

Yes you are right.. I am sorry. I have a dence schedual in front of me, and unfortunately I am only able to do so little in my breaks in between since the breaks are simply because I can really work no longer.

Lol. hahahahaha, thats why i use a badger gfx and work 99% freestyle (airbrushing). the very very little 100% sharp areas i can still brush up with a freehand template then. most of the time not need to do that, but that is just my messy way I brush. ... Thank you very much for dropping by. Well lol yes. I too like working such with my airbrush. I had tried badger but I must admit that I wasn't able to like it as much. I have worked with Aerograph SUPER63A and 63E most of my illustrating life. Oddly since 1963 they didn't need to update the model. It was a perfect airbrush. Now I have Sprite also from the series.
Well before I advertise them any longer... I too work free hand. The fuzzy line adds alot more realistic results than does a clean cut mask. But most of my proffessional illustrations were graphic stuff which were usually transparent cars that reveal the motors, or a glass of som coctail.. or a bottle and stuff like that. Damn did I hate that masking!

You really think so?! Oh thats a relief!
Honestly I thought that I was going as fast as a turtle who had too much to eat a few hours back. I actually DID paint a bit more... I'll see if I can get some free RAM to get a something to post.

I had actually thought of showing details as I complete them (had a long post about this earlier, so I won't bother you with it again) But now that I started on posting stuff. I think you are right. I'll try to show the bigger picture a little more often.

Oro; Geee :blush: , thank you.. I'll try to keep it such :)

Thank you for taking the time to view my entry. And thank you for the kind words. I hope to live up to them as things go on.

Thank you for passing by. And I am glad you liked it. And you BET I am going to be having alot of fun painting it!! Some like line art.. But I think I grew to dislike it for many reasons. But painting.. well thats more a relaxation for me.
(Ps; I really liked your new avatar)

04 April 2005, 04:41 PM (

Alright, here is a little belated full-view of the entry:

I have activated the visibility of all of the layers so you could get a better idea of things. The canvas I am using is a bit bigger than my intended final image. It shall be cropped to the borders you see here.

I have played around with it and applied a few hours of paint. The eye is a little bit different to what it was in my last post. I have distorted it around with a filter called 'liquidify' in the application I am using. Actually most of the final image is going to be very dependent on this specific filter.

Now the surprise figure here is the red figure in the centre of the image. He is actually the guy you see most of in the distorted refractions. Some parts have been thickened intentionally. but I got them back to the same thickness through the Line Art process.

If you havenít guessed already, in order to achieve the decent result, I am going to have to first paint everything thatís behind the bottle. And then retouch the distorted images. I have to apologise if it doesn't exactly look like the line art in the final form. I'll go back and fix them up.

Last of all the brick walls grooves were actually my pencil-marks from the first perspective study to achieve them ([I]The in between lines being painted white[/]). I am not going for a very clean alley corner as you would expect. So I am going to leave the dirty graininess the pencil left behind. I shall be starting on that next I guess since the colours I shall choose for the faces are very dependent to the background.

More to come...


04 April 2005, 04:42 PM (

This is a detail close-up of the figure on the bottom left. I have screen grabbed it from the original resolution I worked on it with. If you click on the image you can have a better idea of it's dimensions.

The hair is actually a different layer. The general method I follow is to just paint out the hair that would fall behind the forehead or what ever. And then erase where the forehead would be covering (I believe that when 'hair' is involved... masking is a bad idea. The next step would be do just go on painting with masses of strands. Using strokes similar to the nature of the hair I want to then create. In this way not having the need to restrain myself.

If I happen to have strands that don't really fit in I usually prefer to liquidify them to blend in better. Rarely have I used the smudge tool.

As for anything about the rest.. well it is a whole big entanglement. It was more about me randomly having fun. I am so sorry for presenting such a mess.

Hope you like it...


04 April 2005, 04:44 PM (

This is again a detail screen grabbed at it's original res. So again shall you just click on the image you can get a better Idea of what I too am looking at.

You have probably noticed that it is the figure on the top left corner. Because I am painting using the pencil-sketch as a ground colour for this one. It still has the earlier composition for the bottle (Which you can see in the larger image posted earlier) So don't worry, I liked the 'grabbing' in the line art. The final image shall be that version of it.

Actually I may completely repaint this image. It started to look like Rock Hudson! And I would really prefer him not to. Actually what you see here is not exactly painting. I just filled the sketch with a magenta, using the 'colour' feature in the filling options. And then used a light tan tint and magenta to add a bit more colour in between the lines. Then smudged and dodged my way around. I think I had done some colour-burning around the eyebrows.

Hope you like it...


04 April 2005, 04:45 PM (

Ok... one more. This guy was a screen grab from halve the resolution I worked with. I couldn't figure a good crop for this face, so I just brought the image down to halve.

This fellow found in the bottom right hand corner was completely done in the same manner I had started on the Eye, which I posted a while back. It is just a variety of brushes with a variety of tints of the same colour. In fact to ensure the variety I would get by overlaying my acrylics with the airbrush I kept the brush strokes to multiply.
Well the rest of the technique has been mentioned already.

Once again nothing is complete for you guys to be able to really have a something to attach at. But if you shall notice anything to set pointers to, I would be ever grateful!

Hope you like it...


04 April 2005, 04:57 PM
another great succes....but try to do something about the looks a bit unnaturall....i don't know ....good luck

04 April 2005, 04:58 PM
ps:the hand of the guy on the lower right

04 April 2005, 10:05 AM
ok i ve seen some impressive works here , god knows i admire enayla... but this... man i am not exadurating here when i say that in my own opinion that ur work has the most powerful impact on me:bowdown: i myself have a different taste, and so do many others, there are works that burst with design and coolnes and stuff, but in a way when compared to this, they seem kinda childish... and how the hell did u make it look like a real brushwork!?:bounce:

04 April 2005, 11:21 AM
Thanks Oro; I'll see if things turn out better when I start to work on it.

Nebezial; I have no words. I can't find a compliment of a higher value than that. And coming from you adds ever more to it. Thank you!
Like the most of us I am just trying to get as serious withmy peace as I can.
The subject of it is fairly deep; I have a fear as I start on it each time, because it is so easy to mess things up... I guess thats what you are seeing behind the brush strokes, as I am not capable of finding my work as worthy for those kind words.

As for how I get the results to look like painting:
I had stated earlier that I had painted the image with a variaty of brushstrokes with an opacity value of 8 or so.. And through the whole work it has been rare (Besides the sketchings) that I have had it above 40. While doing flesh; it seems we use simiallar pallets.. but I leave little work for the burn or highlighting. I prefferably keep the brush's blending to multiply. What this provides is a natural highlight and shadow to the grains in the pore-like brushes I prefferably use.

One more point to be taken here is that I constantly modify the brushes to my needs.
Explore the options they come with. Like you can not only make a brush of your own from an existing alpha, but you could modify it's oppacity, wet edges, scattering and even how it should accept the texture from underneath or not. The scattering and opacity may not seem like really cool options on first tests.. adding their variaty makes the worlds diffrence when you paint at such low oppacity with frequent strokes.

If get a result that I am VERY satisfied with while the layer is still transparent... I set my blending to 'behind' and start painting layers of pale colours (Depending on the areas the tints vary ofcourse) with an oppacity value of around 40.

It's not much of a tutorial, I know. But I hope if can give you some idea. I'll try to organise a better explanation of how I preffer to work later on. And other than that, you are always welcome to ask about any specific details. I would gladly try to explain the methods behind them.

Thank you again.


04 April 2005, 11:37 AM
what's up dude,

Man, those are good progress. The skin tones are very realistic and i like the way you are using the brushes. I do the same thing with the opacity and i also mess around with the bush options, but i guess our subject matters are a bit different, hehe. I'm more into the whole cartoon and animation stuff.
I love realistic paintings though, specially when it's done in a traditional medium. I can only pull it off if i'm using charcoal and watercolour. I haven't painted anything realistically in a while. My brain doesn't want to i guess. But man, so far you are one of the few artist who can seem to capture that kinda of quality in digital. I give you mad props on that bro and i'm really impress. :applause:

BTW, i know the hand is big compare to the guys face, but somehow i don't have a problem with it, because it adds on to the subject matter and the style of your piece.


04 April 2005, 02:38 AM
Thanks Black! I saw your post in cliff's thread and loaded a pic... the only thing I could think of at the time.. I'm wanting to change it later.. but I wanna draw something cool... love your thread.. really detailed!

04 April 2005, 05:36 AM
Ah, Black, this is coming along nicely. You're not disapointing with the paint :thumbsup: Keep it up.

04 April 2005, 08:50 AM
wow! you really took a chalenge seriously, i mean, it's so hard to make an old man, and the expression is doubled by that hard work. i really admire your work, you're using a soft brush, but it all works ou fantasticly. great work, black!:bowdown:

04 April 2005, 08:59 AM
I could say a whole lot.....but I'll cut to the "Quick"...real nice paint work.....doing beautifully Black...:arteest:

04 April 2005, 09:24 AM
Arc80, thank you again for the time you spared for my thread;
Yes I can understand your point about the simialarities. I had started off with drawing my own comics when I was not allowed to draw things as a child. And was only suppose to study or do my homework. But things developed to what I do now. I sort of like to mingle with what can be real and what not.
I might be wrong.. but the reason of your comic style in your digital might be from the usage of too saturated colours. Try using the sponge brush to desaturate some areas as you wok. It might open new doors.
I think the thing about the hand is that the un-painted parts make it look thicker and bigger. I shall see what filling it in does. If nothing resizing is much easier in digital than it is in traditional mediums :)

BlackBird, I am really not on my brightest of days. But I must say that you sort of lost me there.Thank you for your kind words on my thread. Today is a sort of dence one for me, but I shall be visiting your thread a little while later, incase you are talking of your entry.

SideAche; Thank you, you are very kind. Glad I lived up to it. It is the only way to match to standards of those like yourself.

Calisto; I think you may be right. But I guess I took the subject I am working on serious. It is not the easiest tasks I have decided to carry on. But then again your supports are ever encouraging. I just hope I won't fail your generous compliments.

Virtuoso; What can I say? oh yeah.. where is yours? :p
I understand you are really busy. And I apreciate the time you are sparing to take a look at my thread aswel. Thank you for always putting something in.

Thank you all for the kind support. I shall be in a VERY dence day today starting now. Tomorrow on we are off with my wife until wednesday. It is a big chance that I may be online on Sunday, but no Promises. And since most my work is Internet dependent, I shall have to squeeze the 5 days of work into a day :(
This will most possibly prevent me from posting anything til I am back. Sorry prehand

Thank you again!


04 April 2005, 02:51 AM
Hey Black,

I can't say what hasn't been said already. Besides I am speachless this is a very powerful piece, and I am beside my self. Seeing your work and knowing how knowledgable you are, I only hope to be as talented as you are one day.

04 April 2005, 12:22 PM
again wow...great colors...i still have something with the hand...maybe i'm not seing it right..

04 April 2005, 12:33 PM
wow black...did u do this?

*dry jokes aside..*

looks gud ,the hand has to thin fingers and two thickass fingers,but it looks stylised.

keep it up!

04 April 2005, 09:46 PM
Hi there, excellent work. Even sketches are all pieces of artwork.
Thumbs up.

(At mevzuunda Áok yağladın beni feci kasılıyorum :)). Ancaak burada da gŲrŁyoruz ki kaabiliyetli bir adamsın. «alışmaların Áok hoş olmuş. ben senin şu eskizlerine bile ŲdŁl verirdim. Benim yarışmanın 2D ayağı Áok yavaş gidiyor. Zaten değiştireceğim konuyu kısmetse.)

THE Wizard
04 April 2005, 10:15 PM
Fhiew, nicely dooooone... It's great!:thumbsup:

04 April 2005, 07:57 AM
black... how are those fat fingers comming along??? its been a while just thought someone chould check up on u

04 April 2005, 05:47 PM
mhen, ur sketches' really cool, leonardo type...

04 April 2005, 10:21 PM
Hi everyine! Just came back from a short vacation and read through. Thank you again for your kind words...

Sifer; What can I say? I tend to like what I do, even if I may not like the results of it all the time. But I wish I was able to deserve such a high status. In any case I have to thank you very much. It is hard for me to express how motivating it is.

Oro; I have to try things first; I'll get to it now that I am back.

NOOB! You are not the only one integrating their name to into their nick ;) Good one though!
I think I can see what you may be liking about the hands. I tend to like it in a manner. But they WERE just drawn freely, without calculations. The bit that looks well with the whole is the way that some of the images are distorted to have a 'drunken' feel. And that head is one of them.
Will see.

Kuzgunoglu; You know the game: it is going to be a competition of who pee's the farthest in giving compliments if this keeps up. :)
But if something looks impressive, I believe it should be said. And well your horse definately did!

THE Wizard; Thank you. very apreciated.

Tilite; I am sorry. But I was away on my belated holiday. JUST got back Will updae shortly.

Arkinet; Having any mention of my work within the same sentence as 'Leonardo' sure means alot! Especially in such a positive compliment as yours. Thank you!

Will be updating soon


04 April 2005, 07:12 AM
Looking forward to that update "Black",,,hopefully soon.....all the best....:arteest:

04 April 2005, 06:46 AM
Hey Black, awesome stuff! Thanks for your helpful suggestions re my MAYA file which won't open. Think I am going to have to start again! Luckily I hadn't done too much. Claireabella

04 April 2005, 12:43 PM
Hi Berter,

Thanks for stopping by my thread! :)

I like to see someone else who's a detail obsessive like me! Heh! Can't wait to see all the bits as a whole image again! :) Is it all on seperate layers at the moment?

04 April 2005, 04:19 PM
Hey BLACK, thanks for dropping by at me thread and thanks for the suggestions. I'll be waiting for you updates.


04 April 2005, 10:00 PM (

In order to be able to distort things onto the bottle, I decided to leave aside the fun of painting the faces and to deal with the wall.
Now to be able to make it more realistic. I needed a texture background that had some what the hue's and indentations I would be needing.
So I started off with a texture of a squid's skin I found on the net. I am still searching from where I found it, as it was a good one though free. It was suitable for what I needed. It was textured, and the colours fit me fine.

Since this step of the painting of the wall was literally done by distorting, filtering and messing with it's blending I thought I would make this step by step as I have done for my 3D entry:
I opened the file;
_Dragged the texture to the canvas (Behind the brick wall drawing I had from earlier)
_Skewed it to fit one of the walls (Paying attention to the perspective. To ensure that the grains are larger at the top)
_I duplicated the layer and transformed it again to form the second wall.
_I selected an orange tint for the foreground, and a sienna for the background colour, and set my gradient tool to 38 percent opacity.
Then I dropped a gradient on the first layer to allow a shade distinguishing the two. And then merged the two layers.
_Now I chose a dark burnt umber like colour with less saturation for my background colour, and a pale pastel blue for my foreground. And I set my gradient to 'Multiply'.
Once again I dropped a gradient to the whole of the layer.
_I duplicated the wall drawing this time and after setting it's opacity to half and it's blending to colour burn, I merged it down to this layer.
_I applied a lighting effect from the top right and gave a height bump to the white. The bump level was around 55 or something. Oh and I chose a pale yellow light.
_Once again I duplicated the wall drawing and I applied the same light effects filter. But this time I set the height to a full 100. Once this was done I set the layer to 35 percent opacity, and it's blending to overlay. To keep to the colours I had in mind I coloured it towards a bluish tint and played some bit with it's hue/saturation.

Well thatís about it for now. Iíll be posting a larger version of the last frame shortly...


04 April 2005, 10:13 PM (

Actually if you click on the image above you would get a bigger scale of the frames.

But the details were not really vivid enough in that scale for you to be able to apreciate the need to go through the last steps.

This backdrop is far from the final state. I preffer to paint it to my will. But this is meant to be a refference to me all through out.


Ps:the canvas is only what you see between the guids.
Gotto get back to work now! :(

04 April 2005, 03:31 AM
Hey, good to see you posting again. That's some nice update you got there. THe texturing is progressing really good i can see. I know you are not done with this, but just a minor critzs, your texturing on the brick is kinda looking like water drops. I think the highlights is to bright or maybe it's just my monitor, hehe. I'll be checking back later.

cheers bro

04 April 2005, 03:35 AM
Wow... I love the details.. and the brick texture in the backround is beautiful!! keep up the good work.. can't wait to see more!

04 April 2005, 06:33 AM
Firstly sorry for my posting and leaving rudness. I had really little time to read your posts then!

Virtuoso; When have you ever asked me for something and I said "No" :)
Well you want one, there you go! Thank you for your kind support once again, I hope you'll like how things will turn out.

Claireabella; As I said in your thread, it was no trouble at all. It was based on a selfish reasoning: I simply want to see your finalised image!
And I am willing to try all I can to do so :p
Thank you for dropping by to encourage me.

Poshspice; Yes they are almost all seperate layers.. like the head in the middle has a seperate layer for each hand, his nails, eye, face and sketch. The face at the bottom left has a layer for his hair seperately. So shall the other heads. I have an individual layer for the lineart aswell. The bottle.. oh boy, thats alot of work. I sort of want to get things run through so I could just refract it onto the bottle.Thank you for dropping by, your words are very encouraging.

Arc80; What I said to Clairabella goes for yours aswel. You are putting a nice story there. I would like to see how it comes out. I hope I was of some use.

You are right, it is not the final. When I shall be painting something, I would preffer to paint it all the way. This shall be my grounds to work on. I sort of liked the way the grains looked like really old italian mud-bricks... but none the less I am not going to keep them. They are there for the purpose of their colours, and to help give me an idea on the scale of the graines.
Unfortunately when scaled down the graines DO look like specularities. You have a point there. You can actually click on the image to get it a bit larger, but still. I think I will be making them indentations rather than bumps when painting them.So it's not your moniter.. or it is both our moniters :)
Thank you for dropping by to encourage me!

Black_Bird; Thank you, I just hope I won't be disapointing you along the way. I am going to be able to update much more frequenter, now that I am a bit more free.

Thank you all for your time spared. When I start painting the wall, I am thinkink of making a few parts of it urinated, or halve concealed with cement.. the gerneal colours and lighting shall be simiallar though in any case. What would you think? Good Idea?


04 April 2005, 06:46 AM
:applause::applause::applause: shiny!:applause::applause: waiting for an update for a loot of time....nice work!

04 April 2005, 06:47 AM
hi, I've been watching since the beginning...The depicted maddness in the clustrophobic atmosphere is so cool...The skin work is amazing...more more

04 April 2005, 09:46 AM
Ave Black,
"Alcoholics find themselves trapped in the corner!!!" or "People trapped in the corner find themselves enslaved to alcohol!!!"? Which one is true?

Good luck!!!

04 April 2005, 05:01 PM
I really hope to get you some more updates VERY soon. I am sorry for keeping you waiting so much for the simplest of updates.. It will change though, Wish me luck! :)
Woow thank you. It was very kind of you to drop a note on what you feel or think of it. IT is sort of the atmosphere I am hopping to achive. To sort of create his own private hell.
I would say it was first the egg.. but not as we know it :rolleyes:
Lol; I never thought of it that way, but I loved the way it sounds and yet sums it all up. Such a poetic approuch!
I am so glad that you spared the time to drop by, thank you


04 April 2005, 05:08 PM
wow it looks great,it really has come along way.

can't wait for more!

04 April 2005, 09:48 PM
Good work. Go on. Your idea was already original and you are giving it in an original way also.

Abi bi şey eksik veya yanlış ama ne olduğunu bulamadım. Yoksa Áok gŁzel gidiyor.

04 April 2005, 12:42 PM (

In my earlier attempt I had tried to get a whole image with a sort of texture on it, so I would be able to see the wall as a whole as I worked. I am definitely not going to leave it that way, since as far as I get it, we are suppose to paint everything out.(Else it would have been a lot easier to just skew a wall behind him instead)

After some thought on it; I decided that the crudely done corner alley with dirt and urine at random places would be a good idea.

So I splashed a few colours to what it's going to be like. And I shall start detailing it all through out.
I doubt I'll be working as detailed on parts that are going to be covered up by the bottle or heads. But I have to still have a sort of colour behind the bottle in order to know what I am going to be refracting.

Note: I found the texture I had used in the earlier update. Apparently it was not a squid, but a 'Jellyfish' texture. You can download it from HERE (

04 April 2005, 12:48 PM
NOOB!; Well thank you.. In honesty it doesn't seem such until I try and remember the "LineArt" episodes of it. I gueess it took alot from my energy, and I am just going too slow in the painting of it.

Kuzgunoglu; Thank you for your all time support my good friend. I hope I can fullfill what ever you see as to be missing.

I shall be working on this for the day.. did some work yesterday on the challenges, but nothing much to show yet :(
Till later!


04 April 2005, 02:38 PM
Hey, Black, it's looking good! Sorry for not posting much thus far, especially as you've been so great about posting in my thread (Thanks, by the way!) Really neat to see how you've been building up the texture on the wall. Who'd have think there'd have been a jellyfish texture lurking under all of that? Thanks for the link to that site, too!

With the backdrop more in place, it's getting easier to get a mental image of how this is all going to look when it comes together. The faces and the bricks and all. The faces are really nice, too, especially the eyes. I look forward to seeing how you approach the important liquid in the bottle parts of the piece!

Anyhow, with I could offer useful C&C or suggestions, but I'm dry. But good luck with the rest, and I'll stay tuned!


04 April 2005, 03:27 PM
Man, can't really critique on anything here. Just want to say the bricks are looking great and looking very realistic. Can't wait to see the whole piece and how everything flows.


04 April 2005, 03:14 PM
xxxxxxxxxcellent idea

great work:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

my master and servant 2d

04 April 2005, 03:57 PM
very brick-ish, good textures! lol:thumbsup:

04 April 2005, 05:38 PM
As happy as I am that you guys liked the textures, I am sorry to say that those guys are not here to stay. They were only there to save me from a blank canvasto paint on.
But because it was such a simple thing to do, and the results were convicng up to a level I thought I would just go on and share it with you guys.
I am not completely sure about the rules, but up to how my personal ethics go, I sort of felt it wrong to be using already prepared textures. They DID help me out, but thats about as far as I am going to let them stay. So to the better or the worse I tried to paint my own bricks (NO ready textures used)

Walrus; It's ok Mike... I really hope that you are not feeling obligated to post. I ever enjoy your setting your remarks. But you really shouldn't feel bad if you don't type in a few words all the time :). I spam your thread only because I really enjoy doing so, not with a single thought of cursing at you for not doing the same.
Thank you once again for your encouraging kind words. I shall do my best to try and live up to them.
Oh and unlike yourself.. I am REALLY not looking forward to the bottle bit. I still wake up with the nightmares of remembering how hard it was to line-art it all!:eek:

Arc80; You have always done your very best to support my few efforts here. Thank you yet once again! I am really glad you liked the textures, but they were still too uniform to my taste for the picture. And as I have stated above, I am not going to be using them. I HAVE painted a new wall which I shall upload shortly.

Xric7; Thank you for dropping by. And also for your compliments to my work and the idea.

Calisto; Thank you again for your support. I hope you like the txtures I painted as much as you have liked these.

Thank you ALL for your support; I shall be posting an update very shortly


04 April 2005, 06:05 PM (

Ok; this took a dear bit longer than I had expected...

I tried my best to catch a realistic looking 'wasted' wall on areas that shall not be covered by the heads/hands or the bottle.
Though the remaining areas are to be covered up. I still needed some sort of a brick-wall background to be able to reference the refraction on the bottle from.

So I went in a bit more in detailed to compare my first colour splashing. Yet just not as finely detailed as the walls that are in the open.

Actually I can't say that these are complete. They are just now good enough for me to be able to move on. I intend on playing around with the final brick work depending on how the rest of the image turns out.

Hope you like it!


04 April 2005, 06:12 PM (

Ok.. here is a close up detail of the wall.
It is on a quarter of the resolution from the original. I just thought it too boring to show only one brick.
The most of the painted bricks on the left side are the ones that are going to be visible. And peaces from a few on the right. I didnít add in the Line Art layer so as to not cover things up this time.

For the colours of the brick's lay-out.. I tried to be as random as I can. Sort of to go for the same colour mismatches we see on alleys similar.
Iíll be getting back on the heads and hopefully soon, the bottle.


04 April 2005, 06:14 PM
Oh a needless detail.. I forgot to add that if you click on the image you get to see it in a quarter of the original resolution.



04 April 2005, 11:15 PM
My God, that has some serious insanty. (aww crap,:cry::argh: the nightmares are starting already)

THE Wizard
04 April 2005, 11:21 PM
Ok, today I was browsing throu lots of threads, and tried to find the ones (ideas) I like. Needles to say that about 80% of entries are in basicly the same... We have some dominant master and subcumbed slave... I wrote slave, 'couse most of "servants" are actualy slaves... And didn't botherd me much but here and there I could find some interesting ideas, and then I came to this thread...

The first thime I red your concept i was in a strange, (cant explain in English) mood... And why is that? Well my FIRST concept idea, was SAME as yours, and even my sketch looked so much like this you did... I tried to do something different, but more to do throu the painting and less throu the words, so painting a drunken man holding a bottle was too cool, and on the other hand I thought that people wouldnt understand the idea in just one look at the picture... And I must say that I'm pleased that I changed my concept before posting any, 'couse this would be tooooo weird...

Again, I like the idea, concept and sorry for this long post I did, and I hope to see some more of your work. As I said the only thing I like more than a fabelous drawin-coloring is a great idea... And you, my friend, have exelent one... Good Luck!

04 April 2005, 01:38 AM
this is really shaping up nice, man. great to see all your painstaking developmental work come together bit by bit. your detail paints are sweet, too. keep up the good work, dude!

04 April 2005, 01:47 AM
Okay dude, i was going to mess around with your piece, but... i'll be nice this time :p

Anyway, I have no critique on this :cry: I just really want to say, this is seriously looking sick. Those bricks, i could just grab it and hit myself with it :banghead: They're so close to being realisticly rendered. :thumbsup:

BTW, i just went to CALISTO's thread. Man, what the hell did you write in there. That was like a treatment or a synopsis for a full story, HAHAHA.


04 April 2005, 04:28 AM
Black: thnx 4 dropping by, your help was incredible, I really can't thank you enough...I'l post updates in 2 days, I'll be trying what you told me...
btw, you're right, but I didn't want to correct him, after all he came by and commented... thnk you again you :buttrock:

04 April 2005, 06:09 AM
keep goın bro

gettin perfect

04 April 2005, 09:25 AM
hi black, cool sketches and interesting theme.. not much to say.. iīm waiting for updates :)

04 April 2005, 09:28 AM
what to say to someone who obviously knows what he s doing...nothing, just sit and admire:thumbsup:

04 April 2005, 03:18 PM
Great bumps. maybe work in slightly some attenuative coloraccents? some coldgrey (blueish accents) in the shadowarea helps the depht... hehe, keep on going mate!
sorry was too tired yesterday to visit you. :)= keep it up my friend and thanks you again so much for your lookover in my 2d piece :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

04 April 2005, 04:26 PM
I am sorry for late replying to your supportive posts. I had hoped to reply with an update as I usually would. But things have been too busy here for me to be able to work on anything to show :sad:

Thank you very much for droping by. I am hopping to give doubts of his ColdTurkey, his HangOvers, and simply his wish to not live the real wrolds pains.
I think it would well prison him to be pushed around by whats in the bottle.
Lets see how far I Get.
THE Wizard;
Thank you for not only droping by, but also your time you have spared to share your personal values.
I too like to have a sort of depth and emotion in works I look at. And I am flattered beyond words that you find some sort of depth in what you read.
I'm very sorry to hear about my ruining your whole idea. I am sure you could have done a fantastic job, most possibly better than mine.
I was in doubts when I had started on the pose and all. I wanted to lean him against a wall with a busy world around him. But the isolated sketches I had done for possible expressions just brought this up. And I sort of liked it.
I really hope that in time you shall find something in the depicting I am going for to be able to live up to the idea. Thank you again for your time and sinerity.
Nigel Q;
Great to see you hee aswel! :) thank you for dropping by. I think I prepared everything a bit TOO dependent to how good I am going to be able to paint in the bottle. I am scared to bits to start on that. I hope you find my details as expressive as yours.
I would be flattered to have my works played around by yours. I think that would be a sort of compliment. As much as 80 percent of Boris Valeijo's posters sold out there being pirated won't help his income; I beleive they are an emmence tool on spreading out his work, and complimenting his genious with the amount of intrest he attracts.
You are once again too generous on your compliments. Thank you still though.
As for Linda's(Calisto) thread; I don't really understand what you have asked. If you are reffering to WHAT I wrote.. well I am sure you have probably read it by now. And if you didn't, it would be better. I don't want to retype it all. But if you mean WHY I wrote it:
I did because I thought she needed it. Because I thought she had captured something unique. And had forgotten about it. Or was too scared to put it out, since it was a bit deeper than the usual.
I went to it again to read her reply, and was VERY embarassed to notice how long I had typed. So I deserve anything you have to say. It was a bit too much.
Thank you my friend... I had only pointed some things into your direction that you would have noticed sooner or later. But I am glad you thought it useful none the less. I shall be visiting often to see what would pop out if you won't mind me doing so.
As for the correcting bit; I understand what you mean. I have to be a bit more understanding to the fact that there are ALOT of entries. And it is not too easy to be able to spare the time to all. I think the posts and comments are suffering dearly from this "Community Vote" bit. Such as to post to as many threads as you may.
So I sort of try to read through and show the thread the necessary respect that should be given. Even by reading all the inbetween posts if I can. A great variaty of the posts suffer from asking the same question or giving the same crit a few times too many.
Good luck with your entry.
FireStorms; Hahaha ... I hope so my dear friend. They say that nobody is perfect. And if you read my title under my avatar; it will get you to just call me "Perfectly Special" :)
I am still gathering a list of links for you, will be PM'ing them very soon.
Thank you again for your support.
I have been watching your progress for a very long time. Needless to say I am loving it. And I am very flattered by your visit. Thank you!
Let me see.. you could stick to the regular poting tradition and just say "cool" :p
Naa .. you have said one of the best things you can to encourage me to go on. Thank you for always being there in support. Thank you again.
Talking about always being there for support. Thank you once again for your supportive post.
And as I said in your thread.. do not feel any obligation to come by. You have already done plenty.
Now I didn't exactly understand the whole of the crit though... Now if you are talking about the bumps that were there from the earlier textured post. They are from a Jellyfish texture, by asighning a light effect filter and giving hight to the whites. But there are all going to go. I am not going to use readied textres in any part of this image.
But if you are talking about the cements between the bricks.. yeah I noticed that after I posted aswel. the whites just seem far too sharp at points. I think it is sort of more related to the optimising of the Jpeg, cause they aren't as bad in the original.
I am going to leave the bricks as they are for now. but will be working on them as I paint the figures. I'll keep in mind to test the blueish accents when I do. I think it would help things out.
Oh BTW.. the parts that don't look detailed in the painting.. those are going to be left behind the foreground objects. I only gave them a colour to refference for my bottle refractions.

I shall hopefully doing some update in the evening... but I presume I would want to present some of my modeling in the 3D first.
Thanks again;


04 April 2005, 09:16 PM
what to say to someone who obviously knows what he s doing...nothing, just sit and admire:thumbsup:

i double that.:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

btw. i want to thank u once again for commenting on my thread. it really helped A LOT.:)

04 April 2005, 09:32 PM
Hi, your wall looks like 3d render with bump map :)
...thereīs something wrong. iīm not sure, but think itīs incorrect perspective.
no no, imīsure, itīs wrong, vanishing points are not placed correctly. think about it.

04 April 2005, 09:59 PM
Your most welcome.. thank you for sharing your entry with the rest of us. It was great fun to go through.
And well thank you for the kind words on my slow boat.
3D render? lol thank you (I guess). It was a simple cheet you can do with Photoshop. If you go a few posts back you'll see how I got them. But as I said earlier. I will not be using that. I do not want the use of any textuers. All you see here should be painted with my own effrots and calculations. I find it only fair. I hope you find the parts that are painted (the ones without the bumps on them) as 3D like. Because those are the ones I painted and the ones I am going to be keeping.
About the perspective:
I am sort of distorting the image view to not to have a perfect view. More actually exagerating it all. I thought I had written this too a variaty of times.:shrug:
If you happen to follow the link to post #18 ( ; you will see the perspective lay-out I drew with a ruler on a rough print-out of the image.
But if you were aware that I am making it a bit fisheye like, and are reffering to saying that THAT is wrong.. thats something else. I would be very gratefull if you would relook things through and let me know in a bit more detail.
I have been examining, and recalculating the image for a quarter now since your post... and honestly have not exactly understood where it has gone wrong. Skewing the image is not too difficult, if you are right.
Just let me know (Please)


04 April 2005, 09:59 PM
Awesome brick textures. It almost looks like it was handled with watercolors. But one thing is that I'd add some more bumpiness to it. Can't wait to see more! :-)

04 April 2005, 04:03 PM
the brick work looks great but the faces and the idea are wonderfulllllll..i'm sure you'll finish in time...thanks for the nice words...ohh..and how do you know romanian???? best of luck!:thumbsup:

04 April 2005, 04:31 PM
Thank you for your time and your observation. I think I can understand what you mean by the bumps. But I doubt I would be going for it, since more bumps would mean more contrasting little shadows, and thus bussiness.
It is already more busy than I would like the background. I am sure it might do the bricks good if I tried. But as I said I doubt I might.

Thank YOU for the nice picture :)
I am glad you liked the idea.. and I am very thankful for your always coming by to try and encourage me. It is very apreciated.
I can't really say I know Romanian too well. But I can proudly say that I am fluent in a few languages. I think I can read your language better than I can understand what I hear, as I have said in your thread.. it has been a LOONG while.

Thank you again for the time you have spared. Like some of you might be guessing, I am a bit TOO envolved with the bottle. It is not really an easy task to go for. I am in doubt to have the guy at the top corner refract in it now or not :rolleyes:
Well we'll see :)


04 April 2005, 12:04 AM (

Working on the bottle and the refractions now.

Most of the brick bits are going to be straight forward. Since a dear bit of it has been drawn out in detail with the line art milestone.
But the head that is also going to get refracted in there is no joke. It is going to be very hard work unless I use the aid of distorting the image.

So even though that head is only Ďvirtuallyí going to exist on the canvas, I went through the trouble of colouring him in. I actually also changed the fingers a bit so they seem like they are holding a head and not a basketball.

This is not really much of an update. And a VERY messy one as it is. But my next step for tonight is going to be covering the bottle up. And this might be the last chance to present this head.

Well hope you like it.. Update to come tomorrow evening latest of the bottles colouring.


04 April 2005, 01:32 AM
I love the expressive way you create. the huge emotional power you lay into your creeatin is simply breathtaking. Love what you do. and feel what you done is done with much love.
Keep on going my friend, the result speaks for itself. Awesome work Black!:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

04 April 2005, 01:52 AM
I like this composition, but isn't it too crowded(probably the minimalist in me). Still loving it...

04 April 2005, 03:00 AM
I am very thankful for your insight on what you feel for the image.
I personally have a hard time complimenting my work as you so often do, nor can I be as saticfied... But I can definately say that I get so saticfied , and I so enjoy the in-between process of the making of it.
I so wish for this to show as vivid as you say.
Your support, personal and through your posts has added so much more reason for me to put my best I can.. Thank you

Lol no, it's not the minimalist in you.
The image is really VERY messy. I am so sorry for the post. This was a fast screen grab of the head before I burried him into the refractions. I would so like to hear if you would find the put togeter version any better.
Thank you again for your support. It means alot

I am jsut about finished with my 3D now.. and before dawn I would really like to bring this image to a much better level. Thank you all for waiting so patiently


04 April 2005, 04:45 AM
hmm... it does seem better, the thaughts seem louder...not a scream loud but noisy loud, which I hope that was what you're going for, I won't comment on colours or others until you flesh things out, so until then, this seems to look great...

btw the positioning is excellent, I like the randmized sizes of the thaughts and their position...

I'm finally done my exams, I updated my thread ;) ...

04 April 2005, 05:09 PM
THis is looking great. The painting quality is outstanding and impressive. I like the expressiveness of the overall piece and the emotional interpretation is not as limited as i thought it would, which is awesome. Even though their facial expression say one thing, you can broden that, because of the colour pallete and placements of your subject.

The only thing that bothers me is that i can't seem to focus on just one thing for a good period of time. My attention is all over the place (i don't know if you intended to do that). I somehow feel that you are bombarded with all this emotion and you don't have a time to breathe, observe, and take in what's going on. I don't know... i guess you have all this equal amount of details and you loose your first read, second read, etc.

Anyway, i might be jumping to conclusion on that, so i'll wait for your next update. This is definately one of my favorite pieces here. A modern approach to fine arts and a great interpretation to tradition. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


04 April 2005, 08:50 PM
black great work

where do you find the time to make the 2d and 3d contest

04 April 2005, 01:50 AM
It is going to be a hard to tackle concept. I can not guarantee that I will get the best out of it. But I shall try. It may end up a bit messy in the process. But I will keep an eye on it not to :)
Thank you again for you idea's, they really help

I am very sorry Archie:but you sort of lost me there.
Could you be a little bit more specific?
If you are reffering to the image being too busy all over; cha0t1c1 had pulled my ear on that too. I am very sorry for the messyness of the post. It is not exactly how I am hoping for things to get to. I just splashed stuff all over and hadn't noticed.
But if you are reffering to the activities of the expressions spread out.. I hope it won't give the same feeling in the resulting image. I don't remember if you had ever had the chance to see my line art were I drew in the details for the bottle to come in the center...
You see, there is going to be alot of refraction within it. And it is sort of going to take the full attention. Please note that it IS the master. Since I am going to be distorting things to be able to paint in the refractions, I needed to put a sort of distinctive colour all over.

I may have missed what you meant by a mile.. if I have, please correct me.

Ar LutIK;
You see thats the funny thing. I DON'T have the time. Infact thats literally why I am so horrible in updates. It is sort of embarassing to see the achievements of everyone to compair.
I guess it is people like yourself that go out of their way to try and help me which actually makes it possible. I can't thank youenough for sparing your time this evening.

Thank you all for your support. I have just now really messed up, and will be giving my 2D a few days break most possibly. after this update to come. I think I will only be able to do something over the weekend.


04 April 2005, 02:03 AM (

After spending about two hours on painting the bottle; I noticed I took the top contour for the inside of the bottle, and the bottom for the outside (facing us). So after all that work, I ended up noticing that I have a very funny looking bottle and an awkward hand grasping it!

And with all the work put into it... MAN does this hurt! The worst bit is that I painted the liquid in it accordingly!

Oh well I thought I would just post this. I donít think I am going to be updating this for some time. It was a bit too demoralising :(

Til next


04 April 2005, 03:12 AM
lol...I am sorry I's just such a common mistake...well all you have to do is work on the bottom of the bottle, the rest looks great...more on the next update...

04 April 2005, 04:48 AM
You are right on the target. It's about the expression spread out.

Anyway, i'm sorry to hear what happened. I know how that is, but seriously, do not be demoralize by it. I definately know you can fix that with the talent that you have bro.

So cheer up and just think of it as a learning tool.

cheers bro :buttrock:

04 April 2005, 09:03 AM
Looking good, I really like the compesition and flow of the image

Keep up the good work

04 April 2005, 12:11 PM
Oh, that can be so heartbreaking when you've worked for so long on somehing only to come back and realise what you've done isn't what you thought. But don't be too demoralised, the picture is still looking really good! Infact, why not consider it a happy accident, and that will all the bottles, twisting the perspective could just be another way of looking at the theme of alcohol. I like the busy-ness of the image, I think it gives the viewer a real sense of unease, a sense of drowning, and not in a peaceful way. Only thing that bothers me with is the placement of all of those heads in a line on the left. I think just moving one or the other over very slightly, closer to that isolated head on the bottom right, and it'll be great.

I particularly love the way you're rendering the middle guy's hair, so fuzzy and balding. In all, I think it's a very strong piece that gives the viewer a good impression of the helplessness and craziness that alcohol can induce. Please keep up the good work, I'd love to see this finished.

04 April 2005, 12:38 PM
hey man i like your people! they look so real. i mean not idealised! keep up. dont keep us waitin too long:thumbsup:

04 April 2005, 09:06 PM
Well no it's understandable.. the situation is really humorous.
It's just that I personally can't get to the funny stage of it.
Changing the bottom is probably what I am going to be ending up doing. But the manner that I did the liquid in it has to change dramatically also. It isn't too possible for the liqid to capture such specularity in from such an angle.

It's sad that it's the expressions that you didn't/don't like. It is sort of going to be one of the only things special about my whole entry... As I said in the post. The bottle may help it focus as you expected. But I can't exactly change much about the composition at this stage. Maybe after it is all layed out and I see how it goes.

Thank you for the encouragements on the bottle. And well nothing to do. I am going to ave to sit and fix things up :sad:
The funny part is that this is the TIP of the iceberg. This image was used in the inner reflections and the complete refractions of the bottle to come in the center! I am going to have to do ALOT of changes. My main computer is still occupied with renders from last night. And the file size of this being so large. I can't work it on my other machines. Will have to wait anyways.

Thank you for the encouragements. For how things are going, I think I could really do with some. Thank you!

Thank you for dropping by and leaving your wonderful comments!
I understand what you mean with the distorted perspective, and I can see the way it would work. But in the whole of the image as you can imagine I have to have a grasp into the reality of situations much more than most of the entries. Because the alcohol is not doing him damage in his drugged world.. but more in this world where his breath stincks, where his head hurts from the mornings nights, where he see's only disgust and distaste in the eyes of those looking at him.
I am so glad that the image has brought you to think as you have stated to about it. Alot of thought went into the making of this image, technically and emotionally. But it is not always that alot of work results with the same result as planned for. I hope you like how the rest of it goes.
As for the heads bit. I understand what you mean... but the head with the loss of hair at the tops is not going to be seen. It is only a refference to be refracted into the bottle he is holding. I had a concept sketch on this that has the final lay out. There you can see what is going to happen to that image (It shall be a sort of tisk, I liked the randome hair aswel .But hey did it once. Can always do it again :) )

Thank you again dear Linda for your kind support. I guess it is not too easy to capture an idealised person in a state such. Though doing one that is secretly taking drugs behind the scenes or vommiting what he/she ait earlier would be an intresting M/S concept: "A servent to popularity!" :)
Thank you for your compliments. I'll try to not keep you waiting too long. But no promises.. I am still upset for the last mess up :sad:

04 April 2005, 09:13 PM
Yo Black, Great progress, lovin' the whole psychotic feel to it.
Oh, and thanks for stopping at my M&S. What I was trying to show is that the one in control is the tattoo, and the red veins are the bindings on him to keep him in control. although I am thinking about going back to the master coming out of the tree.

Thanks alot, again!

04 April 2005, 01:10 AM
Thank you Dulshad, I am glad to hear that.

And lol you didn't have to come all the way here to report to me. I was planning on visiting your thread often to check up on things anyways. I would have read it there. :)

Thank you for dropping by again for encouraging me..


04 April 2005, 03:42 AM
Hello my friend,

Okay, i just wanted to clear this :) . Dude, i love the expressions on their faces. I think it's one of the best i've seen in this challenge. So it is not the expressions that bothers me, it's how they are spread through out the page. It is just a personal thing, because i think i'm one of those people who likes to understand and sometimes take time to really feel and grab their emotions. And the spread of it is making me go all over the page, because the rendering and details are so well exxecuted. So i apologies for any mis-understanding :banghead: :p

Anyway, i'll be waiting for this to be finish, because it is one of my favorite pieces in this challenge. Like i said to SLAV's page, YOU, ADAMOS, and SLAV have one of the best approach to modernizing fine arts.

cheers bro :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

04 April 2005, 03:41 PM
hey Black: just popped by to send some boosting vibes... :thumbs up: keep it goin buddy...

04 April 2005, 09:52 PM
Boy do I feel bad for having forced you to explain the same thing three times.
There is nothing to apoligize for on your part. I have to grow up and learn to respect others opinions. And in reality I actually do. It was just that I was too stupid to understand yours at the given moment.
Thank you for doing your ever best to keep my morals high and motivated. I hope to be able to live up to it.

Thank you my dear friend.. I am sort of busy with preparing my reports about another even for the last week. It shall take me some time.
But I shall start soon :)

Thank you both my good friends;

04 April 2005, 10:03 PM
Yo Black, the only reason I came to explain there is because I didn't think that I was important enough for you to drop by daily.

sorry for being a little too cheesy about that.

By the way your doin a great deal of progress on your piece.

All the best,

04 April 2005, 10:10 PM
I personally belive that you are as important as I am... well honestly more important. I don't find myself improtant nor like treating myself such.
So please do not think any lesser of yourself nor your works. I have just been occupied with my reports. And also with a mass of emails notifications I am sparcely able to keep up to.
Shall you not mind I would enjoy to take a look at how your things are coming up. But in due time.

Don't worry as a result, ... nothing was taken offencively :)

Try 'Hi Black' or 'hello Black' instead... I would enjoy it alot more even though I apreciate the warmness.
I guess I am too old to really grasp it's greeting value :cry:


04 April 2005, 06:50 AM
remarcable coloring....if it's not to much what sort of brushes are you using...i'm a noob in this so i really don't know to much.....good luck!

04 April 2005, 10:48 AM
Hi Black... i think that your colouring looks really good, i really like it the way it is now... it does add some surrealistic feeling on it .. and i think that is is not bad thing at all..... :bounce:

THE Wizard
04 April 2005, 07:37 AM
Nicely done.... Just a thought - with all these, reality looking faces why dont you make a blured evil smiling face somewhere on the bottle... Not very clear and understanding at first sight, but it will be there to show the domain over the drunken man, and to strenghten the relation between master and servant...

04 April 2005, 06:33 AM
You know Black if little master "Yoda" from Star Wras would see this he would say..........."there is much talent in this one"....or something like it.......Wonderful continued progress.....I can just sit back and watch and enjoy,go for the ride as they say.......Keep it coming just as you are Black......:thumbsup:

04 April 2005, 05:07 AM
thnx for dropping by, I hope your piece is going well, thnx for the flag tips, yeah I stretched it a bit, but very fixable. oh for the heat field shadows, I have the shadows on a separate layer( ;) ). I'll use a blending option to get better shadows...thnx again for dropping by...

04 April 2005, 05:15 AM
Hello every one.. I am SO sorryfor the delays in my updates but I have been very busy on other matters. I shall get to them today on though. At least two updates every day :)

Well I usually tend to make my own tips and always modify what I have readied... But there are a variaty of Photoshop's (Photoshop 7)preset brushes that I greatly make use of. I'll try to list them according to their default names for you to be able to find and compair:
Fuzzball (I have this modified every time I use it... and rarely do I use it as a stroke.. mostly just to click and go)
Chalk (Unlike the other noise brushes; this one has a much more controlable character. You can see my using it in a variaty of places)
Dry Brush Tip Light Flow (This is about the same in use... but this particular one I use more while painting skin textures or something)
Dry Brush (I think I use this guy like I do the Chalk mostly.... it has a nice control)
Rough Round Bristle (This is a one kickass ugly brush with a horrid effect to my taste. But it has a unique watercolour quality that I so make use of)
Dry Brush on Towel (This one is of the brush tips I use the most... especially for the hairs. I love it's aditional noise)
Heavy Stipple (This I use rarely at it's own thickness. I either make it very transparent and large, or normal and tiny tiped)
Brush on Light Weave (I really like the cloth texture this has baked into it. I think I use this most for pored surfaces)
Paint on Rough Texture (Great brush...this in adition with the Dry Brush on Towel really did the trick on the guys hairs)
Rough Dry Brush (About the same methods as I go for with the Heavy Stipple. I think I used the two most in the bricks for this work)
Scattered Dry Brush, Scattered Dry Brush Small Tip (These two are fantastic brushes. I usually go in and increase it's scattering greatly and also bring down their count.. they are great for pores, and irregular textures. The whole effect of the old bottle in was done with the help of these guys used by the dodge and burn tools)
Large Texture Stroke (A very odd brush I must say... but it has proven me alot of uses til today. I like to use it to introduce irregularities to surfaces with it)
Granite Flow (Talking about irregularies. I love this brush and use it often. It really doesn't look lie a brush I have used here in first sight. It is a brush I discovered a bit later, and used often since. But I have VERY rearely used it to appy colour.. mostly to saturate/desaturate, dodge, blur, burn...)
Petal Crystals (Just about the same as the Granite in it's use.. but for less pronounced results)

I hope this helps on your experimentings.

Thank you again for your encouragements.. Well the bad thing that had happened was more from the perspective angle of the top corner bottle. Sadly I had mad a big mistake by mixing the lines to each other (Inside contour to the outside contour:sad: )
Well nothing to do. Gonna have to work it out!

THE Wizard;
As much as I apreciate the idea... I think I would be going a bit over board with it such. And it would tear me a bit more from the reality part of my aprouch.
I think I am putting too much trust in people to be able to grasp and figure the destructive power of the master.
Thank you for again dropping by and your useful advice.

Woow what can I say? I am flattered with an aditional smile on my face.. I literally had a visual picture of Yoda saying that :)
Thank you SO much for always trying to boost me and my ego.
(Hey you got to post the 150th :) )

So it's an Abbas thing eh :)? Don't feel obligated to come all the way here to thank me guys, ... I am ever so glad to be of some help.
I was very busy lately. But don't worry, I'll try to visit as I can, to see what you are doing and if I can help at any point.

Well as promised.. going to really update ALOT more often from now on!
Til later...


04 April 2005, 05:20 AM
Bottle texture looks nice. Watch those finger tips, they seem broken, especially on the hand in the foreground. thats always a tricky area..... Interesting piece for sure.... curious to see the end result.....

04 April 2005, 07:48 AM
big big thanx for your help,Black
:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

so.. what it's look like?
............'Master May Cry'
my Master and Servant 2d (

04 April 2005, 08:20 AM
hiya black! tx again for comments on my thread, they were really helpfull.. i dont have anyting to add to urs cuz u really know what ur doin, so it all looks great. i especially like the red on the mans head, it looks like blood..:)

04 April 2005, 08:33 AM
oy, just shorten the pinkie of the hand and u r allmost there

04 April 2005, 06:39 PM
Thanks for droppin by dude and for the suggestion. Hey... no update yet? :argh:
I'll be checking back later. Hope everything is well dude.


04 April 2005, 02:34 AM
Hey Black, me again

Now I'm sure, you have clones of yourself, how can you work on two challenges, post a novel on each challenge you follow (like almost all of them), on top of that taking care of your work, and now you promise us two updates everyday, that meens four since you're on both challenge, so you must have clones :eek:.

Looking fowards to your updates mate :thumbsup:

04 April 2005, 02:24 PM
:bounce: This is one of the most cool painting styles i've seen in this challange.
looking forward to urs.
good luck.

04 April 2005, 03:05 PM
YesI have to agree that it is a tricky area... I think I always had a struggle to have him with stumpy fingers and thin ones. The stumps actually first came out through my distorting my sketch into position.
I hope I can paint it good enough to your apreciation as things develop. Thank you so much for dropping by.

Please my friend.. you don't have to come visit me with your thanks. I am glad to have helpped. It was sort of annoying to see you having so many posts with none of them answering your question. :)
To hear words such from you about my painting style is over flattering since I personally find your work breath taking.
I was very fortunate in my studies in the academy. We had this group of great talents that always supported each other up to the level we got. And your works so reminds me of thos days when drawing and creating had a much deeper meaning.:thumbsup:

Please don't come here to thank me... if I set a comment, it was simply because your entry moved me enough to wish to do so. So thank YOU for sharing your feelings such with us.
The red is of my favoured colours.. a habbit again from airbrushing. It is a base I use since the multiplication of it on an overlay looks very definative. I hadn't thought of the blood bit.. but will keep that in mind
I am sure there are mistakes or dislikes to your eyes; But you are too sweet and polite to tell me right. :) Hehehe.. thank you so much for your always encouraging words. They mean alot

You know you may be right there. I haven't touched the hands for about three or so weeks. So they are not really in their finalised stage. But when I get to them. Ithink that may be what I go for. Thanks myfriend!

Oh boy I am starting to get the feeling that everybody is coming here only to thank me :sad:
You really don't have to! I am just happey to be of some use.
The updates are coming. I have arranged in my daily program enough time to work seriously on the challanges. Thanks for the concern and for dropping by to chek on me :thumbsup:

Lol.. thank you again :)...
Would it ever shock you more to know that I am setting tutorials for a variaty of forums and worst of all moderating a competition in one, where I have to remodel a few of the entries to chek on their aplicability? I guess I just don't allow free time to be wasted on myself... We are what we leave behind :)

04 April 2005, 05:15 PM
thx a loot for the tips.. i'm just learning how to paint in digital but it's really really looks great fom idea to concept,lines and coloring.....what can i say 2 thumbs up:thumbsup::thumbsup:

04 April 2005, 08:43 PM
Yeah you are right we are what we leave behind and in your case a few clones, hehehe

04 April 2005, 11:39 PM
Needless to say that drawing/painting is just another language of expressing yourself. So the brushes you shall use will most probably differ greatly depending on your needs.
Digital or not.. I think it is all the same.. the more you work on it the more you experience methods of dong things.
Good Luck!

It's the name right? It's the name! :sad:
Ever since the movie "MIB" my cover has been blown!!! Now everyone knows my secret!


04 April 2005, 11:48 PM (

This is probably going to be my last post without the bottle covering the rear wall up.
I have not yet arranged the perspective of the bottle in the background. But I shall hopefully be getting to that after I can see what of it is going to be visible and what not.
The lumps you see on the bricks are from the underlying texture still. They are there for the colour only as I had stated many times.
I have done little on the most of the image. This is more an in-between post. Since my file size is very big and I shall probably be painting the bottle in a variety of layers; I will probably be working on it in a separate canvas.

Til next;


04 April 2005, 11:52 PM (

What you see here now is actually three layers only;
The top one is of course the multiplying layer of the line art I had so painfully done earlier...
Then I have a green layer that I played most with though in itís new settings you almost donít notice it! (Not to mention the loss of quality while optimising)
The last layer is a layer I started doing the liquid on. It is basically colouring in at this point. I keep the rendered as a references and just colour things accordingly.
I know things are dearly saturated at the while. But bare with me for now. It is going to get better as I flatten the layers to come.

What I have in plan is to highlight the characters heads from the behind so I could sort of add an additional illusion of depth. A LOT of work still. Wish me luck :)

Til Next;


04 April 2005, 02:33 AM
Man, i can't see anything to critzs :cry: (unless i really neat pick it like crazy :twisted: )
Anyway, that wine bottle and glass is SICKNESS. You just keep amazing me with the way you paint (man, i feel like i have a long way to go to get to that level :banghead: ) I could almost taste that wine dude :drool: Hmm...taste like pinot noir...or....
WELL, JUST FINISH THE DAMN THING DUDE :D Stop making me bang my head on the wall realizing that i'm not on that level of painting yet :cry: :cry:



04 April 2005, 03:44 AM
wow, the bottle looks so delicious, I think you reached your point with the bottle...
beautiful...nothing to crit...

05 May 2005, 12:53 AM
really different concept!...good sketch and coloring progress!...
expressive work!:thumbsup:

05 May 2005, 03:57 AM
My dear Archie... No one wants this bloody bottle finished more than my self!! But it is really not one of the easiest tasks I saw fit to practice!
I am so glad to hear the effect it has made on your part. It was alot of work and the compliments from you guys was a serious relief.
Thank you...

That was original :) Well I am so glad you think so.
I wish I have had.. but there is SO much more to do! :sad:

Thank you for dropping by and thank you for your encouragements!
I am so glad you liked it.


05 May 2005, 04:14 AM (

Here you can see the colour layer under the bottle as it is.. but with a little(?) bit of additional work.

At some parts I showed care to integrate the colours of the glass because of using the stamp tool when set to all layers. Thus I ended up having to change the bottle also.
I will probably be uploading it some time tomorrow.. since it is not really presentable so as to be a worthy WIP.

You could notice changes also at the base of it.. as I am going to try to add some caustics to the bottom of the bottle.

I am really not sure how this is all going to look. I have to confess that I fear it to be work for nothing. I just hope they all fit together. I think I can really say that this has been the most challenging image I have tried going for in 2D digital medium.

Hope you like it!


05 May 2005, 04:25 AM (

Now this is a version with some more additional work.

Yes as you can guess.. a lot of distortion has been applied by the aid of the computer this time. There was so much Ďsmallí work that I just had to post a closer view of this one. Though it is still fairly below the actual pixels ... it is close enough to give you a good idea.

All you see here was drawn with the intention of being left behind the front face of the bottle... but I am in some serious doubts to use the highlights at the top as reflections for the front of the bottle. Since everything you see here as it is is going to get covered up.

Another thing that is starting to happen is that the line art is starting to get in my way. It makes it ALOT easier to select regions. But it seems I made some really irrelevant distortions at places that I am simply not able to replicate :sad:

Well more to come! :)

Till later!


05 May 2005, 09:47 AM
Berter very nice work on the neck of your bottle, why don't you make yourself some mask or some path instead of your art line?

05 May 2005, 10:07 AM
very nice effects indeed!! more!!

05 May 2005, 11:27 AM
very effective painting Black.....real vivid,intense,but without trying to be......which is the trick,and you have it covered......Keep bringing it,you are doing some real fine work here........very nice to follow,and also to see the work-flow,interesting......Keep it up strong.....:arteest: :beer:

05 May 2005, 07:14 PM
Last picture is SHOCKING !!
There is a very high quality visual perception plied to the screen.

Thumbs up. Two thumbs up. WAY UP !!

05 May 2005, 07:19 PM
this has officially turned into a showoff thread :D

I love ur work buddy...btw can the specularity increase a bit, to add to the quenching look of the drink...just a thaught...

05 May 2005, 04:15 AM
You have lost me there on the line art bit.. what exactly dod you mean?
If you are reffering to making the line art; well I already have one. It just seems that I had sort of cut corners literally and it is not too easy to follow them.

I'll try :arteest: ... but no promises

Thank you again for your encouragements.
I am sure t igves out diffrent messages to everyones personal experiences or visions. I am glad to hear such positive ones from yours.

Wooow thank you.. it is good ok.. but ya ain't seen nothin yet! :p
Naa.. this is about how it is (painfully) going to go on. It is VERY difficult and I curse at it almost every second.. but my results are getting to be rewarding. I hope it fits the whole of the image.

Lol, no not really .. I am honestly trying to be modest, as there is not that much to show off yet.
I had stated earlier that I was going to add in some caustics to the bottom. If you mean that; it's already on the way.
But if you mean specularity to where the wine meets the glass... Well that I shall see in time.. there is alot of stuff to do.

Thank you all for your kind encouragements. I shall be updating shortly. I hope it won't be disapointing.


05 May 2005, 04:25 AM (

Ok.. still working on the darned bottle.
Even though I was looking forward to it. I have to confess that I am really growing to dislike the hard work and endless calculations it is demanding.

I think I have used the clone tool and history tool more than I have ever for the whole project.

The trick with the history tool is an interesting one actually. You just set its blending to multiply and have the opacity set to a very low value. It preserves not only the textures as you add some bumps and noise to your will, but it also preserves the correct hueís in the process.
I referred to this with a high scattered custom brush.
I used the cloning brush more to transfer effects from one layer to another. And again with a combination of the history brush so I have more natural negative painting effects.

I hope you like it so far...

More to come.


05 May 2005, 04:31 AM
just delicious, what can I say, it's very well... :)

:bounce: I'm so excited for this piece...

05 May 2005, 04:37 AM (

This is only the glass layer for the bottle a few hours after I had saved the image for the last post. I think this is the first time I show the glass only.. well also one of the first times it it a bit more than just blocked out colours.
I did some significant amount of work on it... and now I am searching for methods to have a smoother , a more realistic passage in the refractions.

My biggest effort here is to make the bottle sort of ďwastedĒ looking. To have it scratched all over.
I couldnít live with my self had I gone and done an ultra clean Playboy class bottle. But this is something totally new for me and I am struggling miserably.
I know that there is still a lot of work to do, and even though I donít want to spend any more time on it; in respect to the amount of work that has gone into itís making; I am going to try and overcome all of it.

I really hope it fits the rest of the image ... else I will change the whole image to fit THIS!

A lot more to do!


05 May 2005, 04:40 AM
Woow you are fast Cha0t1c1 :)

Thank you SOO much!

I JUST stopped working on the bottle a quarter or so ago..
and I am so tired from it...

I can't tell you how good it helped me feel.

I am so glad you find it .. ehm... 'Tasty' :)


05 May 2005, 04:42 AM
Can u try a grayscale layer containing scratches drawing?
that might work, and set it under the bottle so it's barely apparent...waddaya think?

05 May 2005, 04:50 AM
Lol.. you know what.. I hadn't thought of that!! :)
And then I can just bend that layer of scrathes to the shape of a sylinder right? Good one Cha0t1c1 thank you.

I am using a sort of diffrent technique in this one here. Sort of have to constantly keep the peaces inegrated...
My only problem is the refractions I had obtained from the earlier post. I want them to sort of be effected noisy specularity of the scratches. And since the other is such clean cut distortion things aren't going too easy on me.
I am going to stop working on this until this evening or something. It did give me a head ache.

Thank you again for the reminder :thumbs up:


05 May 2005, 04:55 AM
What's an impressive feeling! the face is full of emotion that's can express the depth in ya mind. The word ya post and feeling ya express through your works can sense me your character very well.

Keep going man!!

05 May 2005, 08:23 AM
You know what, just like i said to SPACESNAIL... i'm just gonna sit back, relax (well, not really relax since i have to finish my piece), and enjoy the show... unless i find something wrong with it, :twisted: But it is pretty much unlikely to happen. Will be waiting for the overall piece my friend :thumbsup:


05 May 2005, 05:13 AM
Thank you for droppig by... I am glad that the image has managed to bring out something for you. I hope good or bad it does the same with all.
Shall you respect that if my character really deserves such a compliment, the only thing to be expected from that character would be to say you were far too generous on the compliment :)
Thank you...

I am SURE you can find something wrong with it...
I can give you a hint on where to look ... I am making up the refractions.. I have no idea if thats how they would reflect. I gave up mathematically calculating it a while ago :sad:

Thank you again for coming by to boost my selfish ego :) It is greatly apreciated!


05 May 2005, 05:22 AM (

This is actually suppose to be the guy on the top left corner of the original canvas...

I sort of wished I had completed him first. It would be easier to reference from.. but well no time now. I wand to finish the bottle as perfect as I can. Then I want to finish the centre face and last of all the guys at the corners.

In this image I have already worked a few hours on transferring detail and features to the painting layer of the bottle (I havenít the slightest idea on how many layers the bottle alone is :sad: possibly around 15 or so...)
This is going to be later overlaid by the glass layers, the reflection layer and the internal reflections layer.. so from where I drew the vivid line up I donít have to worry too much about details since they really wonít be seen.

Well I have a readied post of the same shot a few hours later... will be posting that shortly.


05 May 2005, 05:48 AM (

Ok, this is something like three or fours hours later.. I really lost track of time so I canít give an exact digit.
After blocking out a variety of colours that would fit to my needs.. I just really enlarge the image and start working with fine brush tips at very low opacity values.
The small trick here is to always select a new colour. I do this by hitting Alt on my keyboard so as to not loose anything from the speed. This way I manage to get to a much wider range of the colours in the area.

I actually hate this refraction thing. But I am starting to like the part about it being Ďcover-upí able. Like if you make a mistake... just call it a refraction :)
As I coloured it in you shall notice that there are a few changes to compare to the post above. Thatís basically because I am trying to keep to the fact that I am trying to draw a bottle in a three dimensional environment... well in a way that is.
Originally the bottle would look at the heads in the image form a much different angle that we do. I truly doubt that I would be able to sketch/paint it to that accuracy.
What I did was just small stuff that could be expected to be seen which would at least keep the image from being a repetition of itís elements through out.

Hope you like it!


05 May 2005, 06:32 AM
good luck....

05 May 2005, 08:01 AM
impressive,nice stylised way of colouring!

still luv concept,as if he is saying *arrrrrrrggghhh godamn,why the f**k have i been holding this bottle so long aaaaaarrghhh*

05 May 2005, 08:21 AM
of course you'll see me here at the next contests.......i love the way the bottle is looking :thumbsup: thanks for all the good words...a loot of luck to you too

05 May 2005, 08:31 AM
EDIT: Pressed Submit instead of Preview :sad:
Reposting it below

05 May 2005, 08:32 AM
impressive,nice stylised way of colouring!

still luv concept,as if he is saying *arrrrrrrggghhh godamn,why the f**k have i been holding this bottle so long aaaaaarrghhh*

This is very funny...haha...

Incredible Working in Progress~!!!....I think u r the only one apply this complicated method....hehe. This is How it looks so cool to read the progress than rushing out to the final Image.

Keep on Holding the Bottle! Put ur bottle in the airrrrr~~ yeah yeah~~!!

05 May 2005, 08:40 AM
Thank you ... to you too :thumbsup:

Thank you for the encouragement.. I hope that the finalised image will not only give a story out.. but also fit to each toher.
The biggest struggle I am having now is not the bends and curves.. but more the effort to keep in touch with it all.

As great as that is to hear... I believe it is sort of unfair to answer questions asked some where else here. Since poeple shall read the answer not knowing what it is about.
Thank you for the good luck wishes.. I sure will be needing it! :sad:

Thank you for dropping by.. And for your encouragements..
Though I am very flattered I am sure that there are hundreds of people with the same ability... I am sure I heard of this guy called Escher infact :)

Thanks all of you!

Now that I came back to take a look at the thread.. I don't really think I was able to show what the hard work was about.
I had a close up that I was doubting to upload.. I might aswell do so now. It'll give you a btter idea maybe of how it was all painted in.


05 May 2005, 08:56 AM (

As I said just now in the thread;
I decided to show a close-up of the last post so you could have a better chance to see how it was painted in, and also so that I can better complain about what stole so much of my time.
If you click on it you will see it in just about itís original res... At some places I had to go into extreme zooms though.

The hair on the guy up in front has been started on, but is far from complete. I guess that would be my next task... But the hair on the guy I painted is just about finished.

I hope you like it!


05 May 2005, 09:47 AM
hair detailing is looking great !!

btw i need ur opinion on the cat colour in my thread.


05 May 2005, 04:54 PM
Berter great work, wich of your clone did this? :)

05 May 2005, 04:57 PM
I see u strted on the heads, just beautifull... :love:

05 May 2005, 05:03 PM
My god, Black. That is amazing work. Holy... I can't stop staring at it. Now you've started to colour the thing in earnest, it's coming out amazingly. I cannot tell you how impressive all that reflection and refraction work you've done on the bottle is... simply stunning! And with the minor tweak in placement of the key elements, the lines and overall composition are far, far stronger. No crits at all, just lots and lots of admiration. Keep it up, and don't you dare not finish this in time.

05 May 2005, 07:53 PM
I am so sorry for the delay, I know how time is much more dear to you since your stunt... I was a bit occupied today. I shall be having free time later this evening. And your thread shall be the first thing I shall visit when I am able to!

I really don't know.. I don't get it.. Wasn't me, me neither.. beats me, hey I would have done it better than that, hmm not my work.. Damn TOO many clones!! :banghead:

Oh I had already started.. I just posted a close up of the one you commented earlier. The size was not really doing justice. I am working on an extreme resolution so the details are even more than what you see here :sad:
Glad you liked it though!

I am speechless good lady :blush:
Knowing your talents and abilities, I have to underline the extra boost I felt in me.
What can I say... Thank you But you are really exagerating it... I am flattered none the less.

I won't dare not finish it and have you on my back :) Don't worry. As I'm working in such tiny bits of the image. I have to say that I'm constantly in struggle to still cling onto the whole of it.
Just hoping that the bottle fits in. If not I will simply change everything to fit the bottle. It is costing me a nightmare to make.

Thank you for the boost Folks!.. I havesome sort of bad news though. I have not only a life here on the CG forums but I have responsabilities elsewhere. So I shall not be able to spare time twice every 24 hours to work on these.
So what I have in mind is to just spend one day on my 2D entry, and the next on 3D (Yes I want to finish them both if I can)

Thank you all again,
Til later;


05 May 2005, 08:05 PM
Hmm.. refractions and reflections. I think i'm a bad person to ask on that, hehe. I usually just eyeball things out and see if it looks correct, but i'll keep an eye and see if i can spot something :eek:

Anyway, i know you will finish it. We'll be all here to support you bro. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


05 May 2005, 08:20 PM
this looks great black! i really love ur work! give us more! btw. tx for stoppin by my thread! cheers!:D

05 May 2005, 10:43 PM
To Berter Akyol:
Hi Great job so far! But you left out the happy euphoric feeling at the beginning! It's the part that traps the servant everytime. Like a little demon in the bottle that's waving his finger at the servant to "Come On In! The Water's Fine!" When actually it's like a thin veil over quicksand and once you're in there, you find yourself sinking into a bottomless pit and it burns like hell. It's the part that traps the servant everytime until the servant becomes aware of the fact that the waving finger is the lure or the bait in the trap. And once he enters, it leads him into that Hellish Nightmare you have captured so well.
Nice Painting so far.
Reminds me why I quit drinking over 16 years ago. But doesn't remind me of why I started in the first place. A key element in such a concept as this I would think: the bait or lure in the trap. The promise of that happy eurphoric feeling.
Just my opinion.
Take care

05 May 2005, 12:45 AM
Ok.. the lesser you konws the better :)
Let me see.. well just take a look around. I am sure you'll find something wrong.. even I do...
The whole key to the thing is: "Why not make it any better" .

You are ever welcome. I am really not coming over to your thread from any reason but my personally wanting to. I am awayre I have been a clown the last times, but in any case you do not have to come all the way here to thank me for it. :)
Thank you for yor encouragements :thumbsup:

Glenn Gallegos;
THANK you for sharing your time with my thread and also for sparing so much of your own views. I value your post and your comments highly. Especially in the manner you have cared to put it.
I was actually starting to ask to myself if it was personal experience when I read the bit of the bottomless pit that burns... And well you have already answered me sincerely on that right away...

Earlier along my thread I was proposed By THE WIZARD (, to add in a little smiley demon to empose a stronger impression of the bottle being a master. I had answered him then in the manner of leaving it all to realistically rendering and not adding any imagenary distortions...
Again in the thread there was a confersation with Zephiri were I had said that I was able to understand what she had meant with the distorted perspective, but that had to grasp into the reality of situations much more than most of the entries. When she had tried to cheer me up on a mistake I had done eaerlier... by proposing that I just leave it as a distortion due to the drugged state.
And then I ad added that in the way I observed things before I put them in the picture was that the alcohol was not doing him damage in his drugged world.. that it was this world where his breath stincks, where his head hurts from the mornings lights, where he see's only disgust and distaste in the eyes of those looking at him.
So in a whole the image is worked on to depict an outside view of this man crawling under his weaknesses. If not what he himself presumes; and reconciders once again as he stares at the bottle to throw it away... ending up taking another sip.

I think I understand your point exactly. I can nt tell you how overwelhmed I got wen I read a comment from Cha0t1c1 stating how deliciouse he found the bottle.
I actually have had an intention.. a mind to go for a crystal iviting glitter in the bottle behind it's transparent layers of the over-worked/scratched glass. And with an adition of a heavenly glow inside of it, I was hoping to have it inviting.
I have not been as involved with alcohol, or had habbits of it. I did manage to see enough people effected by it though. And totally tried to presume what it may be like...
Would you mind if I would dare ask you to help me and let me know if such a solution to come would be enough?
If you have any idea's or coments on parts I have been unsuccessful, I would so like to know. And yet be very grateful! This image has become a journey for me. And it is now being made of reasons now much more important than a competition...
Thank you already if you cared to read up to now :)

I am getting back to work guys.. Hope to get you some updates on this tomorrow:)
Thank you all for the support!


05 May 2005, 10:57 PM
Hi Bertol
I was looking at your bottle on page 12, #180, and noticed those sharp pointed white things at the bottom of the bottle. They look like the "teeth of the demon" to me. If you make them go all the way around the dark shadow area, top ones' facing down toward the ones that are already there, you would have a mouth that looks as menacing as a great white shark with his mouth open. Maybe the fires of Hell inside. Maybe have finger coming through the flames making a jesture to come on in, experience me. Demon looking finger at its base, but have it change to angelic looking as it penetrates that heavenly glow you were thinking of doing. Have that heavenly glow separate the fact that hell is below it. And have the illusion of pleasure above it. Reinforced by the finger that changes from demonic to angelic as it penetrates its thin veil of illusion, concealing the trap below. The finger becomes the lure, the enticer. It promises heaven but lures its victim or servant into hell. Maybe make face that's taking first sip have an expression of euphoric happiness or stupidity on it, the one mentioned earlier that characterizes the innocence or naivity that is lost and slowly turns to insanity and delerium as the victim or servant nears the jaws of hell at bottom of bottle and enters into that nightmare stage that you've already depicted so well. The first step or phase in the sequence is the most important one, taking the bait or lure. The first sip is the best. The last sip is the worst. I've been on both sides of those jaws and believe me it is much better being on the outside looking in than being on the inside looking out.
Really powerful piece you have here.
If its done correctly and promoted wisely it could save millions of lives.
Seeing how in the US alone more than 100,000 people die in car accidents every year from drinking alcohol not to mention families destroyed year after year. This concept kind of reminds me of the Band Pink Floyd. The last words on their album The Wall - "When the artist make their last stand, some stagger, some fall, after all it's not easy banging your heart out against some mad brother's wall."
Trying to give you as much help as I can.
Use it if you can.
Contact me anytime. You'll have my full attention and support.
Just give this concept the best you can give and you'll be leaving behind something that will make the world better instead of worse.
Take care.
And give this concept all the skill and attention it deserves.

05 May 2005, 02:03 AM
Hello Glenn,

Today I had a very bad day with an extra something from another forum I am trying to help moderate to top it off.... so as a result I can not say that I felt good... And unwillingly I took a look at my threads notifications. I must say that you really helpped make a good end to it.
Thank you for your time and sincerity you have again showed to my modest efforts.
I know no better complimnet to ones work than to give them your most valuable thing you have: Your time :)

As I read through your post I was able to understand where you were going to and seeing how you yourself work gave me a better idea on what you may be invisioning... But honestly I tried but couldnh't sell the "fitting in a demon" bit to myself.

As I had said above, when THE Wizard had offered a simiallar idea; I had given it a dear thought. But put it aside for a dear few reasons:One of them being the fact that I didn't want it to be too symbolised.I presume I am putting too much confidence in the hope that everybody would have an idea of what a bottle of that very fluid would could do. I don't know. But at any rate I would like to show what the life itself is instead of breaking it down to little discriptive messages...

Another reason was that I kept from the bottle looking bad.. uninviting.. dangerous. I wanted the drink in the bottle be able to sell itself to a consumer had it been presented in a more attractive bottle.. I wanted to have caustics and refractions in it like the big bilboards we see on how 'cool' it is to have a glass of that expensive drink in your hand.

But I think the mager reason would be the statement I started this journey off on ... a saying we have: "It doesn't stay as it stays in the bottle".
Here, honestly I can't convince myself that the bottle is the demon, nor that it is svil. I am convinced that it is an organic liquid with variouse chemical effects with our body. And it is only going to be presenting such reactions shall we introduce it to our body.
So my master is not actually the bottle, it is the master of the mutated us.. the us that has become dominant to our will, infact to our whole life.

With especially the last explanation always in mind I had gone off to do a mass of images trying to get him drunk then sobour, then drunk again.. searching for a pose that I would like most... I ended up reusing the same papers free gaps to paint in a new expression which got me to the idea of the composition I have now.

So well thats actually how the heads turned out.
And in the heads, just like in the bottle I wanted to have not obvious nor exagerated messages of theatrical format.. I wanted to try and place an as 'regular Joe' as I can manage to stop people from jumpng to the typical "Oh but thats him.. not me" And instead just have the concept that it's human.. just like yourself... But not in control anymore. On the contrary a loyal servant to his weaknesses.

I am sorry for boring you with my blah blah, I hope it is an inresting read to your part. The reason I am going through all of this is to ensure that I can get accross what I have in plan.. or what I had in plan so you could better compare to what you would like to see in it.
Almost a decade ago I had applied to a foundation meant to home street children in Izmir. They were massively helpful and I was very fortunate to get to talk with them in making my advertisement on them...
The one thing that has so vividly tattoo'ed onto my mind was in the manner they were fed up with the clichť photographs of cute children with sobby eyes and dirt on their face put into adverts with a typial note of that could be your child. They were outraged to the ignorance the images had provided to the actual world of it.
I sort of have a little bit of that memory in me still that is forcing me to make it as ugly but as real as I can.
(Just a small note: I had spent a few more months investigating for the ad and had ended up painting a dead child with evidence in the positioning of his pants; that his last minutes in this ugly life of his, were not pleasent memories to take to where he has traveled on to... You can imagine that "value"s did not allow my advert to move any further)

I like your sampling of the figures, and though it would be again too discriptive to my personal approuch so far, I can see it blend in with my idea on the heads I posted up so far.
Tell you what I will keep it all in mind as I work on it now. I have been motivated well and shall spend some good time working on it :)

Thank you for adding some more meaning to my project;


Ps: I don't think I would ever mind this image being used for a cause, as you mentioned too many needles sufferings have already happened.
I shall try contacting some people after I have this contest over with to see if they value it enough to be promoted such... And no I don't have a mind to profit from it.
So I would be grateful to those that have connections.

05 May 2005, 04:35 AM (

Ok.. may not seem to be much but I have fixed some serious details and sort of decided on how much of the light is going to hit whereÖ
Also I have started also on the grooves between the bricks but nothing too detailed nor close to perfect yet.

All that done I got back to where I left off last inside the bottle. I am going to spare some more time on this since I can really do with the amount it relaxes me to paint. :)
As you can see I started on the guys hair.. which I canít say is an easy thing to do!
Most of what you see here is being done to not be returned to a second time. So I am trying to make it as perfect as I can in the first pass.
On the left side I am still not too sure if the fingers will all show. But just out of precaution I gave them some colour I transferred from the bottles layer and also painted the ones more to the right modestly detailed.

I hope you like it, will be getting back to working on it now! :wip:


05 May 2005, 07:19 AM (

And another update on the bottle.. I intend on spending most of today on the image so you can expect more updates soon...

Here I grew to have some doubts. I wanted to flush a few layers of the orange and yellows to have a better idea on how to work the caustics... And as I brushed over the earlier paints I started to like the uniform-lit feel. I am now in doubts to just not paint in the figures there, since I am really starting to like the colours.
Well will see.

I didnít show a very close shot since the details arenít really any details painted in the liquid yet.
Oh boy I SO donít want to start on the Ďliquidify filteringís and the Ďrefractingís and etc... on the parts the glass is thick.
It is REALLY not fun :( But I guess thatís going to be next after I finish the top head. I feel SO happy that the hand is covering up most of the bottle now! (I was a bit upset by that at first) The 1_stAngel has been trying to convince me this morning on how I should spare buying a graphic tablet and that a mouse would be slowing me down a lot to compare... Well he almost managed to do so. I just might get one to be able to handle parts such!

Well thatís it for now.. Till next :)


05 May 2005, 07:41 AM
nice, detailed bottle i like the way u solved the liquid!:thumbsup:

sothats how they drink it in Belgium..they call it a Belgium dip! lol:D

05 May 2005, 07:58 AM
oy, loookin absofrickinlutely fantastic... soo u can use layers eh, i cant, my computer collapses and that ic because i cand install photoshop on my c drive cause then it says it uses the same scratch disk as windows... whatever thast means, ah anyways u noticed how people are getting jumpier as tthe deadline approaches... its fun to see them squirm lol, keep it up man!:thumbsup: only 5 days left.... hehe

05 May 2005, 10:03 AM
Thank you Calisto...I worked on it some more now to fit the figure in... and to sort of distort him a bit more than how much I already had. It seems I sort of lost the cool'ness of the drink. Sort of wish I hadn't.
But well... no going back.. I am going to have to find a way to fit him in and keep the caostics...
About the "how they drink it in Belgium"... I really wouldn't know :rolleyes:

Thank you very much Nebezial;
Again more generous than necessary on my stuff :)
Well yes I do use layers. I had to seperate the bottle into a new file folder.. even that file alone is 15 layers. The file with the faces and wall in it would be about double the amount.
For short the file sizes are very big.
What you can do is install it on drive C.. and use it as it is. Or you can go to Etit>Prefferences where you can set your primary scratch disc. What it is reffering to is to not have your program running on the same drive as your temporary modifications folder.
I am using an older version of photoshop, but I doubt this works any diffrent in the newer versions.

Well I can simply say that I don't like seeing people suffer.. I hope everyone makes it in time :)

Thank you a bunch both of you.. your support was greatly valued.


05 May 2005, 10:45 AM (

Nope, didnít go get a tablet yet.. still updating with a mouse.

I was intending on letting go, but I just wanted to try and do the head a little bit and then a little bit more.. then I ended up really playing with it a lot.
I was preparing to upload it to the liquidiser again, then felt too lazy and proffered to use the old smudge tool instead.
I am going to be using more of the distortions through out the heads I guess. In the case of this guy, I put actually a lot of work, and now I am sort of sorry I did. It took away greatly from the liquid feel that I had liked.
Going to have to work on it. But another time. This will be my last update for today.. got to get back to work now...

Til later;


05 May 2005, 06:00 PM
whoa looks like i cud almost drink that.realistic

nice work man!

05 May 2005, 12:44 AM
Hi Bertol
About your challenge concept.
The more I think about it the more I think you are right to express it in the manner you are choosing. Reminds me of something Ghandi said. Went something like this. All the demons in the world are within ourselves and perhaps thats where all of our battles should be fought. Another thing that comes to mind is a saying I've heard somewhere goes like this. I saw the enemy and it was me. May sound bizarre but that is exactly how I quit drinking. When I was in that dillerium state you are creating in your concept I looked at my reflection in the mirror and a part of me saw the enemy that was trying to kill the better part of me and instict for survival kicked in. I smashed the mirror with my fist where upon I saw something a spirit, an emotion ,or a feeling, an illusion of something my imagination had created, jumped from the broken mirror and flew or ran very fast and entered my brand new TV set where it tried to take shelter. I went after it. Kicked my TV over onto the floor and with one powerful blow put my fist right through my new TV set screen. Going for the kill. Then I picked up the TV which seemed to harbor my mortal enemy and threw it off the second floor porch of my apartment. When it crashed and shattered on the concrete 30 feet below me I remember the feeling of relief vividly. After all I had killed the worst enemy I have ever faced. And it had been in me from the start. I had performed my own self excorcism. The alcohol was just a vehicle that turned that weaker side of my nature loose on the world. I never told this story to anyone. The story I just told you had a strong influence on me and helped me understand more about what was going on within me. Which is where all of our demons lie and live. And is where all of our battles need to be fought. It is easy to point the finger of blame outward but much harder to point that same finger inward. Just thowing some thoughts at you. Maybe they can help you with your concept somehow.
Anyway Good Luck with your concept.
It's Great.
And Take Care

05 May 2005, 02:55 AM
hey buddy ur progress is as usual :eek:
I like the details in the corner of the bottle. However the details are so beautiful, although the tiny details cannot be noticed unless really looked at... I hope u make piece huge enough to be seen immediatly...

btw U haven't dropped by :D ...

05 May 2005, 07:28 AM
oy, whats with the fake modesty, u know ur work rocks, keep up man!:thumbsup:

05 May 2005, 08:17 AM
Hehehe, I agree with NEBEZIAL. :p

Well, i was going to go to a bar tonight, but then i saw this picture and it pretty much got me drunk :drool: So that's how KICK arse you are as an artist :arteest:

Just finish it already and i'll drink to this laddy :beer:

be back again my friend.

05 May 2005, 04:25 PM
hi Black..
u know..your detail is:bounce: :buttrock: :thumbsup:
keep it up,man.
and big big thanx for ur can help me much.

05 May 2005, 08:12 PM
Wow thats good to hear.. the whole intention is to make it look really attractive.. as much as I can.. But I am far from saticfied yet.

My DEAR friend.. I had read your post the hour you posted it.. and allowed it to haunt my mind since. I can not find words to describe how you helpped me feel. Like everyone in the creation process; my lifes work is to generate emotions on others... And I can not want anything more than what you have given me.
I am glad that you are agreeing with my aprouch. I hope it can give out all that is in memories in how words are not enough to describe.
(Note; I didn't want to interfier in the first time since I presumed it a typo but my name is actually: Berter)

My good friend Mohanned; the image is emmencely big.. you can print out a poster of it shall you need. Just tell me the detils you would wish me to zoom into as we go and I will try and zoom into there the next time.
Always try clicking on the image.. since I generally updat in greater dimensions.

No heh he.. there is nothing fake about it.. nor anything modest either.. I simply don't feel out of it what I created it to give out to me yet.. I really like the going. And I am so flattered that some one at your creative calliber. I think yours is the only smashing entry that I preffer to watch rather than spam. And I enjoy to hear that you think my efforsts such.
Well all that said, I shall let you know when I am no longer modes about it :) Thank you

You know you just messed up the whole message!! Drinking is bad!! :wip:
Thanks for the boost though :)
As funny as this sounds to many; I don't call myself an artist.. I doubt I have the right to..
If my works can withstand the friction of time, and still have a meaning to people born a few generations.. then I guess they would have the right to do so.
All this is not modesty.. I think it is more about my respect to older Great Masters.

Hehehe.. And I love YOUR details! I am very happy that they can be of some use.

Folks I am going to spend tongiht and tomorrow only on my 3D.. I have to render it out none the less... and the particles are not working as I wished... This one I can still paint and give in to compair. Soo you may have to wait a bit for an update;


05 May 2005, 08:42 PM
thnx for the info buddy, looking gorgeous....really I sincerely like the piece...

05 May 2005, 04:09 AM
Hehehe, sorry my friend. I ment it as a complement. I understand the respect to the old Great masters. I too have a great respect for them. I still incorporate some of their teaching to the thing i called "my style", hehehe. But time is changing and we humans are slowly evolving. So we consider you as an artist, because you've proven it. Everyone has different comprehention of what an "artist" is or the meaning of being an artist. So you really can't tell who is who unless they prove it. Seeing your pic here, i think you've proven it my friend.

My old professor once told me, "you can never call yourself an artist until you make a living out of it." I know there is more to being an artist, but what he said makes sense to me.

Anyway, just sharing thoughts here.

cheers and have a great weekend.

05 May 2005, 09:15 AM
That's a very nice effect Black.....the look is very intense,colorful,and vibrant......Well done,nice touch......:arteest:

05 May 2005, 09:42 AM
wow this looks liquid! :thumbsup: *waiting for updates* :)

05 May 2005, 04:09 PM
Keep mousing!!(Air_brushing)
keep pushing!!(Color Pixels)
keep drinking!!(water or 100plus for stamina)...


05 May 2005, 05:22 PM
walking thru here on my way to you Zoo.. :bounce: looking really good... man, you are talent, exellent thread here too :thumbsup:

05 May 2005, 08:12 PM
wow man! Ur rendering skills r outstanding! Looking at that last update of urs, that liquid that u made woth so many unclearly shapes.... damn u r good at observation! Looking forward for more and more :drool:

05 May 2005, 08:32 PM
that looks really awesome. take care you keep in time, love the effect and looks absolutly perfect, just keep on going!:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

05 May 2005, 08:42 PM
Thank you.. I believe you do. And it is very flattering. :)

Nope; Sorry.. still couldn't convince me :)
I guess a team of professors like your professor are responsable for making the so called art world so .. flakey. Where nothing matters about it as long as you can sell.
I was definately VERY lucky with my instructors and my class mates in the academy in Dokuz Eylul... They held 'value's very highly.. and even dared to say that not everything you create can be a masterpeace... even if you are the greatest master of painting, sculpting or what ever. And their aprouch to many things just molded me to the way I am and the way I think: Objectively.
I just look back into history and read of so many amazing celebraties for the "art" world whome lived richly through their creative life... but all their works seemed to die with them. So my point is not on how good I make it now.. it is more important that what I make now withstands time. I know it is a little bit complex and weird... but thats the way I believe it and try to respectfully live up to.
We have this '...' of a curator here in Belgium who as a logical aprouch to what art is: "If the artsit says it's art... then it's art"... (He is one of the forrunners in defence of conceptual contempraries)
I HEAR your sincere compliments and I am over flattered by them.. It is just how I feel.. So hopefully I shall rot to be an artist in your grandchilds eyes :)

Thank you Virtuoso... I really put alot of feeling in the making of this so it is usually a run away and a rest rather than a stress for me. I am going to make them all to the deadline. But I am not going to put aside any quality each of my entries deserve.

Lol, how am I suppose to do them all at once?! :eek:
What say I do them in the order you typed them rather than to 'keep' doing them?

Lol thank you.. and you are too kind :) Making sure you encourage me everywhere!
I am so glad you liked it!

Woow thankk you.. And I think your rendering skills are outstanding.. You are too kind.
I hope that the work will just flow up to what you look up to it to be.

Thank you for the kind words.. I hated the effect when had smudged it first... I had actually wante do to have it sort of bend along the bottom. But I am growing to think it looks natural.. I just might keep it.

Thank you all for your time and your kind words!


05 May 2005, 06:52 PM
it really looks wonderfull...and your skill is impressive....belive me...i know how the mouse have my respect...good luck :thumbsup:

05 May 2005, 03:34 AM
Looking good black! I can't believe that your doing this all with a mouse! I bought my tablet a while back and I'm adicted... I only use my mouse if I know I'm not creating any artwork.. it just seems so natural to use it now... love to see the finish painting.. I can't wait!


05 May 2005, 03:19 PM
watsup buddy, u haven't posted...update man...6 more days :twisted:
u gotta be in the book when I buy it....

05 May 2005, 07:56 AM
Hello Everybody!

I am VERY sorry for the amount of delay I have put in between for updating my stuff...

What happened was that we had apparently forgotten to pay this months bill for the connection thus they cut us out!
Though we paid the bill that afternoon.. I have VERY little reason to compliment the speed of the bureaucracy of this country. We JUST got it back!

But this did NOT mean that I stopped working on a few updates. In fact not having all the questions to answer or obligational chats with friends; I have gained great pace, so I just went a little bit more extra on the details both for the 2D and the 3D entries...
I hadnít noticed how much of my time it actually demanded. (For those that are reading and fit in the category, donít worry my priorities are always Family, friends then work)

Being cut off for so many days has gotten a load of work to gather on my case and I have to get to them right away!
So this is just a fast note to thank you all for still following up.. I shall post a variety of updates hopefully in the evening.

For all those that have private messaged me through different channels to ask questions: Thank you for trusting me with your problems... I am so sorry for keeping distant and hope you have resolved the situations in hand. I shall try to visit the threads aswell when I can...

BURRIED with gathered work!


05 May 2005, 09:37 AM
speed...give me what i, hurry up man!!!

05 May 2005, 06:38 PM
Well I have STILL not found the time to go out and get a tablet.. things have not been developing to my favour lately. But I can't really say I am complaining too much about my mouse.. The results are satisfactory to how I am used to working with it :shrug:
Thank you for the encouragements and your kind words!

Well so I hear.. so I hear.. Gosh I can not describe to you on how curiouse you all have made me over the subject.. But I don't want to go out and buy just a tablet to use and have laying around. I would really want it to be a good one. and I couldn't spare the time to investigate whats good on which model and so on :(
Well I guess I am just too used to the mouse. though I must admit that I probably look like a spastic doing all these strokes.

My good friend.. tell you what.. even if I don't make it into the book (Which is a strong option.. there are a LOT of great entries) I shall send you a print out :)
Thank you for always supporting me and my developments. I have given 3D a bit more time lately since I have to render things out on that one. The 2D has something like 3 mmore days of hard work.

I was warned by the authorities the last time.. aparently that thing is illegal by international law.. so I guess you are going to have to try and find need for some thing else :rolleyes:

hehe.. if you are talking about updates.. I have a few.. posting them right away.. And thats only because you wanted them :)

Thank you all for the support.. I have worked some more on the 2D side of the challenge. And shall be posting a few updates shortly.


05 May 2005, 06:41 PM (

Well as I said earlier; I had a good blow on my works with the loss of an internet connection.. But none the less some work has been done on both entries.

This is the first of the series for the 2D updates..
If you look closely to the corner of the brick you would notice how I plan on getting the bricks sorted out.

Itís simply by using a spattering brush with again levels of paint first. Then I just do a light filter with red as height.
The stretch bit is done by distorting it in liquefy.

I hope you like it!


05 May 2005, 06:43 PM (

Albright again from the same shot. I have to say that I HATED this part of the image.. I like doing many strokes to get an image as I wish it to be.. but having to have to do the strokes constantly on a specific path in order to get the fingerprint mark was NOT my cup of tea!
I tried to give the cracks in the textures by burning and dodging, but ended up painting those as well.

You could see that I am almost done with the brick wall at that specific area with the same method as mentioned above.

More to come...


05 May 2005, 06:46 PM (

It was very hard work in getting to what you are looking at now. It is not going to be too vivid maybe in this state. So I shall post two more versions of it with the bottle layers and the inner reflection layers I had shown earlier activated.
This is a collection of what I called the Ďpaintingí layer... where as all the fun stuff if painted in with the other layers in guidance. I think this file alone is around 20 or 25 layers.

There is a dear more work to do.. but it is mostly fine tuning the bottle from here on (Like to draw each of the hairs individually :) )


05 May 2005, 06:49 PM (

Ok this guy is again the previous image with the bottle layers and some of the Ďbakedí caustics turned on. The bottle layer are 3 in total that are active.. the top layer with the exterior of the bottle is still inactive. That shall come on when I have it more presentable.


05 May 2005, 06:51 PM (

Alright here I have activated the inner reflections and some of the caustics I baked into these.
I had posted this earlier on itís own as I remember.. so well now you guys get to see it with the bottle and painting layers turned on.

Unfortunately I have lost the ability to reuse the actions that got me these neat bends and folds, so the newer ones I am manually trying to blend in. The bad part is that it is a bit vivid to those that examine it carefully.. you can actually notice which parts were machine calculated and which parts werenít :(

Like always, you can see a bit bigger version shall you click on the images... I have a MUCH higher resolution of these WIP ís as well shall you have request to see a close up to any specific part you see here.

Til Next;


05 May 2005, 06:59 PM
hahaha lol. man when u update , u sure update, what to say, awesome work... i never doubted, just finish in time mate, good luck:thumbsup:

05 May 2005, 07:39 PM
I shall do my best Nebezial.. I am so enjoying working on it.. and I wish I had more time in hand to be able to spare on it's making.. but well, can't have them all:(

I am so glad you liked it (Even I am starting to like it :p )

Ps: There is a much bigger update.. just couldn't set the images for it yet.. even the WIP's are in very high res jpeg's.

Gotto go now! :(


05 May 2005, 07:43 AM
Wow, what a progress! just keep upŲ the pace my friend, time runs merciless! love the breathtaking high amount of details u put into thes, but take care the rest of your painting keeps closing up to this as well :) best of luck my friend, keep on rocking!:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

05 May 2005, 08:24 AM
Hehehe.. thanks Sacha!
I am so glad you like it.

I have little worries with my 2D entry to compair to my 3D. It seems to be all going well to plan. But with 3D my elements are a bit too much.
Thank you for the worry none the less.:thumbsup:

I hope I can finish it in time;


05 May 2005, 03:33 PM
hey buddy I'm finished my M&S...hope u like it...

btw thnx for the help throughout the contest.... :bounce::bounce::bounce:

05 May 2005, 08:12 PM
Berter, i understand why you wanna frame this one, that liquid is amazing, by the color looks like an aged port (email me a glass), now I did some calculation and if you put 3 of your clones on this image and 5 on your 3d one you should be done on time, once again great work on this image.:applause:

05 May 2005, 08:24 PM
no more than a :applause: for you progressed work here... you not gonna pull my leg this time... haha

05 May 2005, 05:33 AM
Well the nightmare is over eh? :)
Congratulations Mohanned! Wel as I often said.. you really don't have to come and thank me here.. it was pleasure to be a part of your thread.. thank you!
And thank you also for always trying to support my humble work with over generous compliments!

Hmm I can't describe you the pleasure of watching a finished work on my screen as I have a secondary view of the canaal on a winter day as the snow flakes fall gently to maiden the streets while taking a heated sip from my port...
Buut none the less this guy is drinking the cheapest thing he was able to get his hands onto! :sad:
There is a drw back in my cloning... when one gets ill all of them do.. I am a bit 'not well' now. And I fear my clones are useless :cry:

Lol please.. I am a married man!! I have only one leg in mind :)
Well Mona, how can I state my thankfulness for your always showing care to chek up on me and encourage me in the meanwhile?
Thank you again for the encouragements!

EveryOne; I have a bad news in hand.. my health is not at it's best. Infact I am not good at all. But I have this stuborn bit about me that keeps me from letting ANYTHING go after I have worked this far. I have kept updates from yesterday for this reason.
But I shall definately bring in both my 3D and my 2D entries!


05 May 2005, 05:37 AM
So best luck my friend and all my best wishes. Hope you feel good enough to get all you want to in your usual brilliant way. take care my friend and all the best!:thumbsup:

05 May 2005, 05:39 AM
u still have time...get better then turn on the turbo boost, u've done that before...

:bounce: get better my friend and I'll keep bugging u until the last day of this contest :twisted:

05 May 2005, 08:03 AM
:bounce:2d Wow .. :bounce: 3d wow ...:buttrock: 4d wow ... u r the one for me ... i will vote for u :thumbsup:
tu vraiment .. comment di artiste++ :thumbsup: