View Full Version : PA Challenge - Character - Wiro

02 February 2002, 09:00 AM
Well, here's my first step; a photoshop sketch. I usually never really stick to my sketches all that much during modelling so expect it to change quite a bit, though roughly that's how it'll be:

the nuclear winter just never stopped and as the ashes, dust and debris remained in the atmosphere over the years, the climate just grew colder and colder. The few survivors were forced to wear thick clothing and goggles against snowstorms and snowblindness. Since the clothing is so thick they have to wear breathing tubes while outside.

This tracker looks for animal herds in the wilderness and then reports to the tribe for the hunters to do the picking. Standard gear consists of sleeping bags, thermal tent, a snorkel in case of avalanches, ropes, grappling hooks, harpoons for self defence and a portable oven powered by a strong, compact, solid fuel manufactured by the labs in the underground compounds of the tribe. These labs also manufacture the transmitters with which the tracker calls upon the hunters with.

Enough of the crap. Here is the pic. 3d model next, whee!


02 February 2002, 09:16 AM
Damn Im not so sure I want to enter anymore (and i am not even doing a character)

02 February 2002, 09:50 AM
Very nice Wiro, very sweet indeed! U used photoshop and sketches right?

02 February 2002, 10:58 AM
Sweeet! very cool.

02 February 2002, 03:47 PM
seems like I'm gonna like this one TOO!!!

02 February 2002, 05:35 PM
Nice start Wiro!
I really loved the one you did for the 1st challenge;
and I think I gonna love this one :)

good idea, the deep "snow"...
can't wait to see it finished...
but eh! wait a minute, this challenge has not even started!! :)

02 February 2002, 06:01 PM
that looks very nice indeed.
I wish I thought of a winteroutfit :(

still gonna beat you tho :D

this is gonna prove an EXCELLENT challenge.

02 February 2002, 06:08 PM
Cheers guys :D

I forgot to mention that I don't usually sketch in PS but on paper. I just gave it a go this time for fun. It's obviously quite rough (though less rough than I'd do on paper) but it's enough to get an idea. The rest I'll just make up along the way.

Yeah, the challenge hasn't started, but why waste a weekend doing nothing? ;)
Whaddaya mean "go get some fresh air"?


02 February 2002, 10:30 PM
---I will not participate---- Damn.. I had the same ambiance idea (snow) Great concept work Arild ;) ----- I will not participate -----

02 February 2002, 10:42 PM
wiro i really like your character seems we think alike similar in concept but difrent in character cool looking sketch especialy considering it s done in ps ,


02 February 2002, 04:43 PM
Really nice sketch, love the pose.
(Did you find those hot cross buns, if you got a toaster at work, i suggest gently tosting them, then just lightly butter them, MMNNNMM).
(i got a toaster on my desk next to me dell, gonna stick me fingers in it at the end of the day)

Krep Suzeth
02 February 2002, 11:06 PM
Really like the pose !
But is that guy the one from the previous challenge, with additional clothes because of the artic weather ? I recognize some details !!! :D

Cool !


02 February 2002, 11:17 PM
really looking forward to this one Wiro ;) if it's anything like you last one it'll be killer

02 February 2002, 01:00 AM
Very nice start indeed. The pose fits the character and the terrain. Are you planning on keeping the same compistion for your 3d render? I think It'd be neat to see some of the details exagerated/enlarged for your model. For instance the back pack and the scarf-like cloth around his face. Just something to toy with. You overall design is great. Can't wait to see some of the 3d works in progress.


02 February 2002, 01:14 AM
Thanks people,
I've changed the design a bit by now so instead of those baggy clothes it looks a bit more stiffer and inflated (hot air pillows as part of the insulation ;))

Krep Suzeth: Haha, yeah I aggree the knee and shoulder "armor" reminds of the pirate. Their use is different though as they're not meant as armor. In that thick suit and with the thick gloves it's impossible to get a grip if you fall and slide down a slope. So the metal loops along with the Wolverine-style claws (which I only drew in as few lines) act as grips.

Whirlwind: yeah, that's the final pose I'll go for. Though nothing stands in the way of rendering out some other views as well.

I don't have anything really worthwhile to upload quite yet...coming up later tonight or tomorrow :)


02 February 2002, 03:27 AM
Wicked !! Wiro you rock dude, you have so much
expression and motion in your sketches it's
awesome !! Very much looking forward to seeing
this one develop.

Cheers Dude, Good Luck. (Not that you nee any luck ;)

02 February 2002, 05:33 AM
geez, yet another wiro masterpiece! i think we should rename this guy "speedy!" i agree, the expressions and motion just blow my mind. wiro, yer my heeeerooo!

02 February 2002, 06:00 AM
Really...I don't often have that much expression or motion to mention in my hand drawings :(
Lately I've only used my drawing skills for sketches and so I've only become worse over the years. I must have had a lucky day. But thanks anyway ;)

But here's my WIP. The body shape has been roughed out and some details added to the legs, otherwise it's still carte blance.


02 February 2002, 07:55 PM
making sure your post doesn't get bumped off the 1st page . . ;)

seriously tho, it's an excellent start.
but you better quit now, or there will be no chance for me to win this :(

02 February 2002, 08:02 PM
It's ALready a good piece of modeling, very clean... and well structured, can't wait to see more !

I would love to see how do you rig that ...
Only bones, or with CS ? ... if so ... Why do you show us up how to use "physique" well !
So many tutorials about it, but nothing really useful ...
well ... its just an idea...

02 February 2002, 09:14 PM
the sketch is ace and the story/explanation you built around your character is funny and clever... looking forward how it comes to life =)

02 February 2002, 09:56 PM probably post the coolest, most original characters on here, i'm really looking forward to seeing updates

02 February 2002, 10:24 PM
Wiro, you are seriously one of my favorite 3d never cease to amaze me.....highly original and always well executed....good luck!

02 February 2002, 10:41 PM
Alright here's the latest update. It took longer than I thought since I was fiddling around with how the pants should look like. A small engine to power the suit has been added, sleeping bag, tent, snorkel etc as well. There's still tons of gear left to model but here it is.

I haven't added any smoothing groups yet nor taken care of subdivision creasing, hence the faceted, unsubdivided look.


02 February 2002, 10:47 PM
Thats wicked cool Wiro. Are you planning on making an enviroment as well?

02 February 2002, 10:47 PM
haha, I love it! it has a funny look, and loads of cool stuff on it, the snorkel for example, like the motor aswell...and, I love his pants :D

02 February 2002, 10:58 PM
Awwww crap....

*Formats Hardrive... Get's in Car... Hunts down A.Wiro, M.Clark, P.Blanche...*


(I'll give you 10 pounds to leave the challenge btw...) ;)

02 February 2002, 11:06 PM
wow.. I looove your syle Arild!! cool proportions! nothing to say here :D :D

02 February 2002, 11:30 PM
That is really great.Maybe i should start mine from scratch:(.Really nice and clean model!;)

02 February 2002, 02:29 AM
Awesome stuff Arild, love his outfit !! Nice clean modelling too
wish my stuff was as 'organized' as that. *grin*
Keep it up man, it's rocking.

02 February 2002, 06:28 AM
Thanks for the kind words :)

A small update again...the last weekend vertexpushing :)
Several straps and belts added to gear and suit and a hose going to motor. Next will be metal grips to knees and elbows, food rations to backpack, signal flares to front straps...well, just more gear basically :rolleyes:

To answer some of the comments from earlier:

I always try to build my models well structured because Meshtools works better that way. But I'm starting to think it's a load of #@&!! too when people say "keep all quads!!". It's hard to refine local detail, keep edgeloops intact, stay away from poles and all the other bloody subdiv rules all at once. I'd rather spend time modelling than thinking about topology (at least to a certain degree). So I say: "bollox to that!". The way Pascal Blanche models is mostly without regard of topology and his models still turn out phantastic. Good topology is important at places of much deformation (face, elbow, knees, pelvis, etc) but not so much otherwise. My next model will probably be nice and messy.
*Rant off* :)

Rigging will be done with Biped and some custom bones. Perhaps simcloth for the dangling belts and hose, we'll see. It's quite straightforward really, I don't know what I could add to a tutorial. Lots of manual vertex assignment is certain though. Thank god for lowpoly control cages.

concerning originality: haha, I wonder about that. Always when I finish a piece I hear people saying "hey, reminds me of this" or "looks a bit like that". When I showed these pics on IRC I heard it reminds of Ewoks, Teletubbies, MC Hammer and Santa Claus...damn :)

Oh yeah almost forgot the pics!

02 February 2002, 07:02 AM
Superb stuff Wiro (as always), I know exactly what you mean about the "purity of mesh" rules...etc. Not that I'm at your level in anyway - but recently I've been trying to adhere to such methods (100% Quads/edgeloops) and as you rightly point out - it's near impossible (well a pain in the arse) to add localised detail without crossing over one of the "golden rules".

Looking at Matt Clark's/Pascals un-subbed meshes in the last challenge, I was like "wow.. they can't do that! That's a tri face/coplanar...etc", but obviously the results were great. (Probably explains why a lot of my models look boring and round too...):(

Anyway, break the rules as you see fit! (although saying that - ur current mesh is neat/smooth as hell!!)

One question with regards to areas like the straps... now, if you were to Sub-D these - they would obviously become sort of tubular (in their current state), so do/will you refine the mesh at that stage... or is there a professional tip you can pass on to me ;)

Oh - and just to say, simply looking at this mesh was enough to make me turn tails and completely scrap what I've done so far... but I'll be back.

Genius stuff all round Arild! Hat's off...

02 February 2002, 07:27 AM
Haha, thanks! But hey don't scrap! Reuse, I say! ;)

The belts should hold their shape tho. I don't know about "professional" tips ;) but the edges of the belt consist of 2 rows of edges so when subdivided they'll form a slight curve but keep the square cross section (except for those belts dangling between the legs...I'll refine them later). Also there's always the Crease function of editable polys, something I use quite often to get sharp edges without spending too many polys.

Later...bedtime for me.


02 February 2002, 08:13 AM
actually he reminds me of Silent Bob (especially that last pic).

i love this guy. In fact your original post was what got me into this challenge in the first place (the 2d sketch). Up till that point I really hated the concept and thought there was nothing original to be done with it and none of the big shots are even gonna wet their feet.

boy, was I wrong!

well just wanted to say thanks for getting me into this challenge.
I don't mean to sound like all of those "You're the greatest, your'e my inspiration .... etc. " people, although you are one of them and you did inspire me on this one.

so, thanks :)

yon dabuda
02 February 2002, 09:34 AM
hey Wiro, :) loving your character, has a lot of character. that pipe hes got growing from the mask makes him remind me of a 16wheeler though. heh

was thinking about what you were saying about adhering to modeling with only quads. i went through this same feelings and fustrations you did. but then you just have to develope your own modelling philosophy and stick with it or you wont have a philosophy at all, which could be good or bad, i dont know. but now from my own experience, i can tell you. ive learned that there are many ways and that its very fast, and easy to add localized detailing or model anything the way you want it with all quads. you just have to understand the steps and have the right tools. it took me a lot of experience. *im a quad and sub-d freak myself* but its all good, i dont have troubles with it as i used to.
and i would help you with some of the tricks but from what i see you're using 3dsmax, im using lightwave so the way things are done are just not the same. or id tell you to smoothshift, spinquads, things i can do with a click on the keyboard and a click on the mouse. 1sec.

anyhow keep up the good work on the model. i want to see some detailing on those boots :)
cheers and ciao.

02 February 2002, 11:53 AM
Wow the back is really detailed. Very clean modeling. I s there a chance we can see a smooth version?

02 February 2002, 02:32 PM
Sherban: I'm glad I could inspire some people to start :)
When the challenge guidelines were decided I already had some ideas what a PA world could look like. In fact it could be any sort of extreme climate; all water like Waterworld, all desert like Madmax, maybe all in the air like Bespin with dirigibles and other flying contraptions or all snow as I chose. There are so many possibilities other than Madmax/Fallout looks!! :)

Yon Dabuda: haha, it's kinda cool you think of 16wheelers. I wanted a heavy, bouncy, kind of industrial look so I guess I hit my mark ;)

I know it's fully possible to do it all in quads and I do know several tricks on how to add small detail and keep quads but often it's a hassle to get the edgeloops to tie in correctly. Especilly when modelling cloth and wrinkles it gets more in the way than aiding you. It's not so much a problem here but I felt it during the pirate challenge. I mostly keep to quads now since I show off the mesh more than I'd usually do...don't want it to look messy then *ahem* :p

Wheee, I got 5 stars! :D


02 February 2002, 04:21 PM
I am totally diggin your character wiro, BUT, somehow it looks lie he did a MAJOR kakapooee in his pants. somehow it looks like either his legs are to short or his torso to long. I think you might want to lift up his crotch a little bit.

The details however are excellent. and about the quads/tri's issue. for wrinkles, quad are just a pain. you can't get a good sharp crease without a tri.

oh and happy birthday mate :D

02 February 2002, 04:45 PM
nice model Arild


02 February 2002, 05:05 PM
Equinoxx - LOL :D

That would indeed be one major Kakapooee. I can't look at the model without cracking up and having flashbacks to my ill-bladder controlled younger years. No wonder he has a gas mask. :)

No offence please, its just that my immature toilet based humour was tickled. :)

02 February 2002, 06:37 PM
messy, heh? You won't believe how messy my meshes are my friend:D :D maybe that's why my models get this look at the end, they are not perfect.. hmm interessting....
Btw.. you will maybe have hard time with the two(cool looking) belts between the legs while rigging your character.. or maybe you want him to keep legs open? like on your drawing?

yon dabuda
02 February 2002, 07:00 PM
hehe, yeah dont worry about a messy mesh. :) thats why i only work in sub-d and show it that way. the real poygone cage is like abstract art. heh.
and, yeah you might have to apply some kind of cloth sim. modifiers on those belts for colission detection if you like to animate it. :-P

02 February 2002, 07:12 PM
Wheee, thanks Chrom. My birthday has been remembered :D
I actually would have forgotten it hadn't my parents called me up early this morning!

Equinoxx & Kruga: hehe, it's cool that the model makes you have associations. For the good or the bad, I wanted the look to stand out a bit. if it looks weird, then that's exactly what I was after ;)
I may change the structure a bit to look more stretched across instead of sagging down.

Pascal: Hey, I didn't mean messy it in a negative way :p
You seem to have a very free, loose style which I personally really adore. And yes, I think part of that look comes from the way you model.

Yon & Pascal: yeah, i was planning from the start to use Simcloth or maybe reactor (if the demo permits it) to animate the hanging belts. In the worst case i'll just hand nudge them into place to fit the pose. For this challenge it's just gonna be a still anyway.



02 February 2002, 07:50 PM
Equinoxx & Kruga: hehe, it's cool that the model makes you have associations. For the good or the bad, I wanted the look to stand out a bit.

The model definately stands out from the rest... and it stands out because its design and construction is good... tis very commendable.

02 February 2002, 07:57 PM
Great stuff so far Wiro. When do we get a smoothed ver? As far as the quads/tris stuff I agree with you. You need to keep stuff as clean as possible but should definitely break the rules when needed to get extra detail.

As with everything in modeling, I think it just comes from experience as to when you should/shouldn't. I'm still learning quite a bit as I start to rig and animate more of my characters. It also depends heavily on if you are and how you are going to animate a character. If all you care about are stills you can cut a lot of corners and get away with it where if you are animating your modeling methods can present problems.

As far as originality, I think it looks great. I've gotten similar comments on my stuff (it has a matrix/ghost in the shell feel) which makes perfect sense considering Darrow and Masamune are two of my favorite artists. While I would never bite directly from their work obviously I am influenced by them and that translates into my art. As long as the final product is yours and your personal creativity has driven it I think you are cool and people shouldn't hide which artists inspire them.

Again, very sweet stuff, look forward to the updates!

02 February 2002, 05:26 AM
Hey Wiro, looks like you are making good progress :) Might as well throw in my 2 re about modeling. First of all, if it looks good, then it doesn't matter how you did it. Although there's a catch to this and that is if you want it to deform nicely, you might want to take that into account before you mess it up too much. BUT! It can deform nicely even if it is messy, although it's a little riskier :) It's the end result that counts, not how you got there.

And it's possible to add localized detail while still having quads. Here's a really lame sketch ( of how you can go about it. No need to add a complete loop, just cut the loop short when you don't need it anymore. (Hopefully someone will benefit from that image, I can make a more detailed one if it's insufficient :))

02 February 2002, 05:50 AM
The model definately stands out from the rest... and it stands out because its design and construction is good... tis very commendable.

Couldn't have said it better myself... it's really hard to try and think of something and not have this character leap into my mind :( ;)

You should see the sketches I've done... I keep going "that one's okay!" - then look at this guy again and out comes the eraser..

But - that's only a good thing, you've set the bar at a damn high level and it's gonna be a shedload more challenging to meet it (and hopefully more fun!)

Once again - superb stuff.

02 February 2002, 06:02 AM
Heya Urgaffel :)

Yes, I'm aware of the tricks of how to branch/merge edgeloops (used that more with the pirate than to the PA one)...but as you can see, now you've created an extra edge cutting the red one (by the right green edge) which has to extend into an additional edgeloop.

You can see the limitation here:

If you follow the vertical lines; in the left example you can merge 3 loops into 1 without creating new offspring loops but it's not possible to create 2 loops out of 3. One edge has to branch off, forming a new loop now going horizontally. And if the object is a cylinder (as it would be with an arm or a leg) this loop has to tie into the other horizontal loops somewhere so you HAVE to branch one of them into 2. So basically you haven't gotten rid of edges, you've only changed their places.

It's not all that simple after all :)

Thanks also Krugar, Yemyam and AJ-23

I tend to smooth my model in the very end (I do tests inbetween of course) so it'll take a while for the smoothed version :)
I always tend to build my characters to be rigged and animated although I end up never really doing any animation. But it simply makes posing easier. I don't often change geometry after posing, so a clean mesh does still make sense but as I've been rambling in my past posts: perhaps only up to a certain point?

I also know what you mean by originality...yeah, my stuff has been compared with artists from other media too. Most often I just smile and shrug...almost everything has been tried out before anyway, it's practically impossible to create something new

And of course I've got my rip-off sources too. Masamune, Frezzato, Morvan, Jodorowski...anything sci fi ;)

And AJ-23, keep at it! if you run out of ideas, browse through some 2D artist sites. I alwas feel humbled and inspired when I see what THEY can pull out of their heads. The Sijun forums is a great start.


02 February 2002, 06:12 AM
didn't see your post when I got into this thread. I was making the same point tho.

here it is anyway just cause I spent so much time on it:

i don't mean to side track on this subject but in response to urgaffel. I don't know if I understood your sketch right but I don't think that would work. You'd either end up with a 5-point poly or have to continue the edgeloop in another direction.
here's a small sketch (

I think Wiro knows all these tricks. but instead of having to go thru figuring out where to end the loops every time, he'd rather use a triangle now and again.

once more, sorry for the quibbling.

02 February 2002, 06:21 AM
Haha, I just saw your post and edited the one above :)

[edit] oops, no, that was AJ's post. Damn, I'm getting tired and mixing up names :rolleyes:


02 February 2002, 07:17 AM
Heh, I know Wiro is a great modeler and most likely knew about that already, it was mostly for the sake of others I posted that :) And yes, the loop conitues in another direction, but you can change the direction 3 more times and you have a square of higher detail. Ergo, localized detail. And you're not limited to square shapes of detail, you can make it any shape you want since it's a "corner-piece".

Apologies if I seemed condesending (spelling?)

(edit: that sketch was for a friend of mine and had nothing to do with wiros character, so it was a little out of context)

02 February 2002, 06:06 PM
Wiro, Frezzato you say? wicked, when I first looked at your pirate model the robot arms did remind me of Ciro and Robotino on Fango's back in l'le des nains =)
the model is coming along great, and nice details you added (love the heating device). looking forward to a smoothed version.

02 February 2002, 06:14 PM
Weird you mention Fango :)

I started out with more normal legs but was after another look. I bummed around in max for hours but couldn't touch on what I was after. Then I remembered Fango in his diving suit and presto! that was exactly what I had been looking for :)

By the way, are you the Naz I know from Switzerland?


02 February 2002, 08:49 PM
Hi guys, I'm new to 3D, and I just entered this forum and looked at the WIPs... man, i'm impressed! Now, I know quite a bit about Photoshop, but I'm nothing (I do mean nothing) at 3D... I just found out yesterday what NURBS means... even though I haven't found it in 3DS MAX yet. I have a question: where can I find a site or tutorial that explains that "tri"-"quad"-"golden rules" stuff you were just talking about?:confused:



yon dabuda
02 February 2002, 11:55 PM
hey wiro :) was looking at your example of edge loops, the solution to that problem depends on how or where the loop starts. but in any case you can always spin the tri-gon somewhere, to the edge of a surface and deleted, or to merge with another tri-gon, or to merge with its mirror.

here is a case where you would spin it back to were it starts.

02 February 2002, 12:04 AM
Well it would work on 2d.But i think that in three dimentions this would be a party for non planar polugons, i thing:) .I mean that if alls those polygons bend?

02 February 2002, 12:42 AM
Hi folks,

sorry for blending in so late into this interessting topic.

I have a question about Maxs meshsmooth compared
to Mayas polysmooth.

With Mayas polysmooth its pretty unimportant if there
are tris, quads, or n-gons. as soon as you subdivide once
its all quads. Thats a quite nice sideeffect compared
to the hassle subDs make with tris.
does maxs algorithm work the same or does it mess up even
more ?

Hope its not too technical.


yon dabuda
02 February 2002, 12:58 AM
Cgkoko: ive used 3dstudio since ver4 for dos, hash, maya, and lightwave since ver 5.5, are you questioning my understanding of modelling?!!!??!? heheeh... :) just playing.
sure there will be non-planar polygons, but this is ok for organic models. 70-90% of my polygons are non-planar. but with sub-d and the renderer tripples the polygons, its no problem.
hey, when you move "one" point on a cube, you create a non-planar polygon.


02 February 2002, 01:31 AM
Well...I can surely recognize your modelistic superiority, since i'm young in 3d (started in 3dsmax 2,5 years ago and now i'm lightwaving).If you are going to triple or subdivide the polys what is the point of trying to find compex paterns for saving your edge loops?:confused:
And i'm not arguing,my models are the definition of 'messy mesh'.I m really aware of whome you are and i can say i'm abig fun of yours. I'm just really trying to understand the whole idea of edgeloops.:o

02 February 2002, 01:35 AM
Originally posted by Tim Leydecker
Hi folks,

sorry for blending in so late into this interessting topic.

I have a question about Maxs meshsmooth compared
to Mayas polysmooth.

With Mayas polysmooth its pretty unimportant if there
are tris, quads, or n-gons. as soon as you subdivide once
its all quads. Thats a quite nice sideeffect compared
to the hassle subDs make with tris.
does maxs algorithm work the same or does it mess up even
more ?

Hope its not too technical.


its not a question whether your app can make all quads after smoothing, because if your topology of the lowmesh is a mess...then there will be some very nasty creases on the highrez mesh, especially when you deform it. this happens in every single application that does smoothing.

yon dabuda
02 February 2002, 03:08 AM
Cgkoko: my friend, you're making me confused and making things more complicated then they are. :) since you use lightwave you should understand that when you press "tab"(sub-d) it doesnt matter if you have any non-planar polygons, and that you dont have to freeze nor triple your model before you animate or render and its fine,(most of the time). the only complications you get comes from when you use tools like extrude/bevel/etc, you get misbehavior.
i dont look for complex paterns to save edge loops, im just showing the methoods i use to add local details. :)
and im not superior by any means, there are by far, many people better then me at many things.
cheers. if you have questions for me you could email or message me :)

02 February 2002, 03:59 AM
Hi Martin,

sure - a mesh is a mess.

refering to Wiros last screenshot, I realized that I
model alot more details into the rough mesh, mostly
getting in my own way.

So what Im trying/testing now, I model very rough
try to keep to quads but dont care too much.

once Im ok with a part I polysmooth once with
a low continuity to keep the volume, afterwards I
use the *allquad still lowrezversion* and start vertexpushing.

Im not sure if this is really faster, Im testing.



02 February 2002, 08:09 AM
Wiro. I've got to disappoint you ;) but yes, it is me that guy. have got very fond memories of a quake match that was a while ago once around Christmas =)

comics are great for reference or subconscious influence... maybe look out for "Sha" by Mills-Ledroit. its a mixture of futuristic gothic 50's style %) interestingly different.

btw. great poly tweaking discussion going on here! nothing to add, only that once in a while, I keep a tris or two =)

02 February 2002, 08:25 AM
Originally posted by lucascerro
Hi guys, I'm new to 3D, and I just entered this forum and looked at the WIPs... man, i'm impressed! Now, I know quite a bit about Photoshop, but I'm nothing (I do mean nothing) at 3D... I just found out yesterday what NURBS means... even though I haven't found it in 3DS MAX yet. I have a question: where can I find a site or tutorial that explains that "tri"-"quad"-"golden rules" stuff you were just talking about?:confused:



Well, you can start by going here ( That'll tell you how to model using quads and edgeloops. Read it a few times, and then do it again ;)

02 February 2002, 01:18 AM
...Its simply... I realized you have installed a little Anti-matter Device in your mouse....

I love your Post Atomic Character.... :)

.... and I loved the Pirat in the last Challange.... ! ;)


Piz :D

02 February 2002, 05:36 AM
Hi, some really nice work in this thread, that suit looks like it could have a built in toilet. I know what you mean by sources, we don't live in a vaccum so it's always going to look like something. It reminds me a little bit of the fat evil dude in Dune. The David Lynch version. Not that I really remember it very well.

Btw, I've done that tut that Timothy mentioned, and i've read it about ten times, but I still don't understand what an edgeloop is?? If someone could fill me in, please keep it simple, an "Edgeloops for Idiots" description maybe. Well I'd be happy.

many thanks, keep up the good work.

02 February 2002, 11:07 PM
1 comment: You are a talented son of a .... ! No offense.


02 February 2002, 12:26 AM
riki - an edgeloop is simply a connected string of edges. They don't actually have to be in a 'loop', just several in sequence. Here's a picture to show you what it is (sorry for the size, it's the only one I had available):

The red and yellow lines are separate edgeloops. In this model, the yellow edgeloop happens to go around the entire model, while the red does not.

The point of edgeloops is basically so that by modelling in 'loops' or curves, your final smoothed model will be sub-divided better and look more natural/realistic. Everything tends to flow more when you're using all edgeloops. But don't worry too much about them, as they come naturally when you're modelling.

Hope this helped :)

02 February 2002, 06:00 AM
Hi Tim

thanks a lots for that, helps to make more sense :-)


02 February 2002, 09:35 AM
Thanks for your views concerning subdiv modelling...I'm glad I'm not the only one to think a tri or two can't do much harm ;)
I do like to keep edgeloops intact though if only because using the Edgeloop and Edgering tools in Max works better that way.

Anyhow, back to the topic :)
Here's my most recent update. Sorry about the overexposed light (again)'s way past bedtime and I didn't have time to tweak lighting.

I've added some more gear; a speargun, some signal rockets, food and water rations plus worked on some of the other details. I won't be adding much more now due to lack of time. What I will do is tighten the details on what's there, work on the boots and gloves and probably the suit itself and then, wheee, pose the sucker.

Enough babble, here are the pics

Your past comments have been much appreciated!
I know it may look like the suit contains a toilet ( was one of the ideas I played around with in the beginning to add hoses to the groin area, but, well :) )

In the end I just think the hanging pants adds to the effect I was after; a suit that's pretty unwieldy and heavy but necessary in the harsh cold climate. Or something ;)
Hope you like it


02 February 2002, 09:40 AM
very nice Wiro, you did a great job with the mask, can we get a close up? and the cloth blanket things at the back are also nicley done, they actually look like the fabric... one question, what renderer are you using?

good stuff man, very good stuff

02 February 2002, 09:45 AM
Nice to see a smoothed version finally! Whenever you get a sec it would be cool to see a close up of the smoothed mask. It looks like it has some really nice details. Also, are the pants going to fold/crease when you pose? I think if you show some weight on them the won't look so inflated. Also, the mapping will go a long way as to describing the material they are made of and why they are shaped the way they are shaped.

Very clean stuff as usual!

02 February 2002, 01:56 PM
You Rock Wiro!!

I'm a BIG fan of your work.. that's absolutely awesome dude.. !

(I just wish you'd update your website more often ;) ....)

02 February 2002, 02:18 PM
While youre rendering maskclose ups for
lildragon, would you mind doing a closeup
of the speargun ?

Doesnt need GI, but Id really like to see some
of its details, seems neatly balanced.


02 February 2002, 03:22 PM
'Just love it !!
great design and modeling !!!

02 February 2002, 03:41 PM
While looking at your character I started to think about those boots.. Should he have some kinda snowboots ?

02 February 2002, 03:51 PM
Cheers for the thumbs up! :)

Lildragon, YemYam and Tim: I'll render some closeups tonight. None of the modelling here has been made to be looked at TOO close though ;)
The gun was in fact a huge problem...I wanted it to be permanently strapped to the lower arm but just couldn't find a design that would still give enough freedom of movement, allow easy reloading, etc. In the end I couldn't be bothered :rolleyes:

man_tz: Thanks dude :) I also wish I'd update my site more often...

YemYam: Yeah, I hope the pose will add quite alot to the suit's shape. I do want it to look somewhat inflated (full of hot air, padding, insulation, etc) so it shouldn't crease too much.

As for mapping...hmm, I actually wanted to concentrate more on modelling alone but if I still have some time left I'll try to get some proper materials on. And maybe a simple scene.

Thanks again guys!


02 February 2002, 05:27 PM
Really excellent ! love the detail ! Could we have a face's closeup please ?

BTW, thanks for your answer, I'll try the company you indicated me :)

02 February 2002, 05:51 PM
wow wow wow
so smooth...
...and details are stunning.
great work, your model is one of my favorite, i want to see it with textures!

02 February 2002, 06:17 PM
Hey i love it, specially the motor, how will you control the straps with physique (or skin or whatever you use)?

02 February 2002, 09:33 PM
No problem Joebount. I'm sorry I didn't know more about it.
I'll make some closeups of the important bits tonight.

I will definately texture it...the question is only if I can do it in time for this challenge.

I'll use physique for the upper body straps but probably Simcloth or some dynamic solution for the hanging bits. To be honest I have no clue...I'll just take it as it comes.


02 February 2002, 01:22 AM
.... ehm ... what I have to do after your update?
Maybe... I can will win the next contest ..... grrrr!!! ;)

Very good Wiro! The equipment, the mask, the weapons ....

Only a personal observation...
Don't you think the foots are a bit... small.... I don't know why but I have this idea....



Please tell me what do you think about my character....

02 February 2002, 03:35 AM
I have no idea it looks so impressive when smoothed.:D I love all the gadgets he has on his body. The boots look a little too plain, I believe it is not completed yet.:p

02 February 2002, 05:36 AM
Definately my favourite, Its excellent, great modelling skills Wiro, love the details...

I would like to see it textured too.


02 February 2002, 07:58 AM
Alrighty, here are the promised closeups. I didn't want to put too much detail in. Kinda just suggest detail comparable to a comic.
I also fixed the boots (yup, they were too small ;) ), gloves and gave some of the clothing a more edged look.

There will be a rope from the windlass on the shoulder going to the spear of the gun for reeling it back in again. I think I'll also have to add some more buckles to the belts.

To answer a question from earlier: I'm rendering with finalRender, 1.1 beta. A bit smudgy but it'll do for this :)



02 February 2002, 08:07 AM
Wow thats a lot of detail, looks great. I love the sleeping gear on his back. Just one thing, in the mist of all the detail, the knife on his chest looks a little plain.

02 February 2002, 08:12 AM
It keeps getting better :) The mask just takes the cake. On the spaers on his back, could you maybe spread them out a bit, jsolle em up, so it does not look quite som much like a solid jages object (hard to explain) (detail to knife and box etc. for dynamite ?) I love the pully thing on his shoulder too :D

se you


02 February 2002, 02:23 PM
Yep, the knife needs a work-over. And hey, dynamite is a good one! :)


02 February 2002, 02:34 PM
I dont think he'll ever freeze!
I really like the design and all the details!


02 February 2002, 04:23 PM
awesome job wiro, and I know you'll be detailing those flares and that knife by the end of all this ;) but for the life of me I can't figure out what the pulley on the shoulder is for? :confused:

02 February 2002, 04:41 PM
Hey wiro,
you always were a smart little bstard! :)) Glad to see warthog hasn't sapped all your creativity, me, i'm just a shell of a man and have to live vicariously through you!

Great work!
The Rev

02 February 2002, 06:07 PM
Haha, hey Jonesey. Funny to see you pop in here too. How are things at Framestore?

"smart little bastard"? ...So I fooled you too then ;)

See you next friday

Lildragon: The pulley (I called it Windlass in the last post...dunno if that was the right word) is used to reel in the spear and whatever it got shot at :)


02 February 2002, 06:20 PM
Yeah things are good, things are drawing to an end, there's practically no dino's to render :(

I've got some good stuff for the reel though!!

Anyway, when u gonna stop buying that viewpoint stuff and passing it off as your own!

Next friday - isnt it saturday??


02 February 2002, 07:03 PM
I was just wondering : will the poor little guy be ever able to access his speargun without having to ask a friend ? The thick suit and the position of the gun seem to be a bit, well, rather, hum, how can I say...preventing any possibility for a fast move, don't you think ?

A part from that, I just love your character - he's so cute

02 February 2002, 09:33 PM
looks ace. really like the spear gun with the cords and winch.
I know you are going for a puffy look but the trousers are crying for some more creasing, imo =)

02 February 2002, 04:41 PM
thereverend: No, not Viewpoint, I use Poser!

Serena: *flicks hair back*, hah of course thats no problem!
(translate: shit...didn't think of that!)
But actually I think it should work wouldn't have to reach back to get it, you just twist your shoulder a bit to make it fall off and down the arm, grab and shoot :)
Now getting it back on again is another story :rolleyes:

Naz: I put some subtle edges into the next revision. I might add some more creases too but I think the main creasing will happen when the limbs are bent. Also I was thinking of adding the smaller creases per bumpmap. on va voir

I wanted to upload my (almost) final model yesterday but my home internet access seems to have a hickup. Tonight then maybe.



02 February 2002, 04:51 AM
Consider my breath baited! :D

(damn Scampi and Lemon Nik Naks...)

02 February 2002, 07:00 AM
Hoookay, here are the next updates. Apart from some minor touches these are the finals before rigging and posing. I added ropes, a shovel, arm claws, buckles and some other small details.

Suggestions and critique are highly appreciated!



02 February 2002, 08:35 AM
Hi Wiro

wow this is the best char i have seen in this challenge.
Absolutly perfect. You have my Vote man.

Hope to see some wireframes !!!

Good luck by the rigging Wiro :D

Hope to have my entry in the next 2 days in.
But i dont think so :( . I try the next Challenge...


02 February 2002, 04:46 PM
Thanks Core :)

I'll upload a wireframe tonight. Rigging will be hell...I can see it coming, arghhh. I especially dread the ropes and belts.
That'll have to wait til Monday though...I'm away on holiday from tomorrow.


02 February 2002, 04:50 PM
it does look excellent man.

and yeah I am soooooooooo NOT lookin forward to riggin mine either . . .

How come you got a holiday commin up and I don't :( :(

have I told you how jealous I am . . . I could do with some time off :D:D

02 February 2002, 11:55 PM
VERY,VERY COOL!! Great design!

02 February 2002, 12:50 AM
Suggestion : find a gun and shoot a bullet in your head !!!! ;)

More seriously, really excellent. I just think the sleeves are way too tight (It must be cold outta here !)

Excellent, just love it ! :)

02 February 2002, 04:41 AM
Excelent Wiro.
Good Luck!!! I think you will need it to rig this character. It will be a real challenge! :p
I love the "chimney" and the sacs (very good modelling!)

02 February 2002, 07:03 PM
wow dude exellent job, it would be perfect if you added som wrinkles to the pants, itd feel more real.

03 March 2002, 12:11 AM
Wow, that is awesome! :eek: I really love the snorkel, and are those bottle rockets on his chest?! lol

Any chance of a close up of just the face? That mask is so detailed it's a shame to not be able to fully appreciate it.

03 March 2002, 12:51 PM
nice character alot of thought went into him great work

03 March 2002, 01:15 PM
Textures Wiro? I know you didn't want to pull any all-nighters after last challenge ... but cmon, one little allnighter couldn't hurt? Just one more wafer thin mint sir ...

03 March 2002, 05:55 AM
Hehe, battle rockets...I like that :)
They were meant to be signal rockets though

YemYam, I don't even know if I'll make it for the challenge in time. I've had little time lately and rigging the character was harder than I thought. To make it even better my max license died and I should get a new one tomorrow so I'll have lost some three days on that.

I won't texture it for the challenge but I hope to at least have a posed model rendered out by tomorrow night. I'll certainly texture both the alien pirate and the PA one at some point though

Pearson, I think I uploaded some closeups of parts a few pages back. Cool you like it :)


03 March 2002, 06:07 AM
heh heh...oops! :o :D How did I miss those closeups?

Thanks! BTW, I really liked you pirate model, too. Very cool and very original.

03 March 2002, 04:03 AM
Well well, thanks to a screwed up Max license I'm a day late. Hope the moderators have mercy :)

I hate CDilla

Tons of stuff went wrong with this one...skinning was a nightmare and I'm not finished yet. In fact I've just nudged the mesh to look fine in this pose for now.

Obviously I've had no time to texture :(

Well, hope you like it ;)


Marc Andreoli
03 March 2002, 05:00 AM
Great pose ! I like the snow texture and the lighting, although the sun would probably not shine in the PA winter ;) I love the weigth/tension of all the stuff he carries around, gotta go back to the picture watch it some more...

good job, I am sure (hope) this last image will count for the challenge...

03 March 2002, 05:37 AM
it's done buddy, and I hope you're going to texture this badboy in this year sometime :p (I mean knowing how you are and all :))


03 March 2002, 05:58 AM
yeah, rigging must have been a nightmare. Could you post a screengrab of the rig? I want to see how you did it :)

Love the snow too by the way

03 March 2002, 03:02 PM
WOOOOOHOOOOOO that is too good. :D :) :p

03 March 2002, 03:22 PM
Yes! Veeery Nice! :D Especially the Motor on is back is pretty cool!
The snow is awsome, makes the scene looking pretty complete, even if the character isn't textured.

03 March 2002, 04:21 AM
Hey, I can still post! I thought the threads were locked :)

Thanks Lildragon for adding me! Yeah, I'll start texturing as soon as I'm done with my current "project". Nothing big so it'll be within this decade :)

Marc: about the lighting; well, let's say it's a resin model on a kitchen table then ;)
Glad you like the pose. I'm quite satisfied with it myself, hehe.

Rendermonkey23: well, as I said there IS practically no rig to show. I tried several things to get the pants and belts to follow a skeleton (additional bones, Simcloth, FFDs...) and also get the gear not to intersect too much (Attachement Controller doesn't like having a meshsmooth ontop of the stack) but in the end I just collapsed the mesh and did a manual verticepushing and aligning. Sucks, I know. I'll be going back again and make a custom skeleton I think instead of a restrictive Biped. I just didn't have the time to do so for this challenge

Raul: Weeehaah! :D

Carny: hehe, the snow is just a simple displaced box. I'm gonna make a nicer scene at a later stage. Nice you like it!



03 March 2002, 02:26 PM
Excellent (as usual I should add ! :) ) Congratulation for your awesome model !

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