View Full Version : lips are on the top of my "hate modeling" list, help!

07 July 2004, 08:42 AM
I have been working on this model since February a few times each month, restarted it at least 3 or 4 times. The lips have always driven me nuts, and I can't seem to fix them. I detached the head and have been working on it lately. Sorry for the bad lighting. Please help, and of course any crits about the head itself too.

07 July 2004, 10:42 AM
Hi hpslashluvr, I think your work not bad, just relax, and what i think is you just need to sculpture her buttom lip more closer upper lip. good luck,
btw, you made it by NURBS, right?


07 July 2004, 03:38 PM
Lips suck a lot indeed (>_<) They're almost inposible. I'm working on a model myself and I've been tweaking the lips for like uhm ... i dunno... MANY HOURS! It ended in a result I was fairly happy with.
Anyhow, check out some wires! They're a big help. I did it the way of secondreality -->

good luck!

07 July 2004, 03:44 PM
If nurbs have anything to do with editable mesh and editable poly, sure...but otherwise I know nothing about them ;)

i wanted to model her with her mouth opened, but i might just close it if it is easier

if anyone can draw over my picture to see what is wrong, that would be nice

07 July 2004, 01:23 AM
You should try to define the facial areas better in general, they look kind of undefined/blurry (don't mean the screenshots).

I modeled the lips closed as it's easier to see what looks natural, an open mouth and all the deformation it causes on the face brings in too many factors to keep in mind.
Also, defining them clearly with some edgeloop helps you see what's really wrong with them.

My topology isnt necessarily the best, didn't read up or follow any tuts on the topic which wasn't my smartest decision.

07 July 2004, 09:53 PM
There's another post on here with the same trouble with lips. Here's a tut that you may have seen before, but seems to deal with the lips and other body parts very well.


07 July 2004, 05:19 AM
Hey hpslashluvr!

I had a lot of trouble with lips as well till i saw Dave Black's timelapse vid
you can check it out here -
Also look at a bunch of wire frames from other models and see how the lines flow in the lip area.

Now i'm know expert but heres a bit of advise don't define the the lip lines to much remember your trying to creat the illusion of mass / volume, look at your face and keep in mind the "fatty" areas.

Hope this helps!

P.s. nurbs have nothing to do with E-poly or E-mesh :)

07 July 2004, 12:02 PM
Lips aren't harder than other areas but I know where you're coming from,I've had my share of frustrations with human heads.

Define the 'hard-edged' contour and the interior segments first so you can have a good idea of their thickness(v.important)...

Then it's just a matter of beveling the in-between loops...Works good for me.

StrageFate:Awesome face m8,the ear's a bit unsmooth though but it's not the EOTW

07 July 2004, 12:36 PM
thanks guys, i haven't had time to redo the lips yet but i will

and i've never learned what nurbs were, so i couldn't tell you if i used them or not

07 July 2004, 12:40 PM
BTW: Dave's lips are good looking but the bottom contour is too shap and it's in a very weird opening position...I haven't been able to recreate it with my own real mouth.

07 July 2004, 02:14 PM
I checked out dave's video, and I'm slowing it down right now, I had the slower version, but to study it well, I need a slower version. I've watched it and it looks relly good! Will be a lot of help, thanx MRAY!!!

07 July 2004, 11:30 PM
Yeah Dave's lips are a little on the "stylized" (did i spell that right hehe ) side but
the concept and layout is pretty solid.

By the way don't thank me thank Dave Black for making the vid he's awsome and always helping people out.


07 July 2004, 10:28 AM
I thank you both, I had an issue with the lips too, after studying the video, it was fairly easy to make lips. The video shows it really well. So thank you for posting this great link and thank dave for making the video :D

07 July 2004, 08:22 PM
Awsome glad in helped!


07 July 2004, 09:25 PM
I think I'm having seizures from that timelapse...o.O

Even the slow version is wayyy too fast for my old head haha, I wish someone would make a very very very slow one with narration. But pausing it every once in a while works too

thanks for the help guys

but how to fix the problem of her looking like she is pulling her head in? (like double chin thing almost) I am sure it is a prob with the neck connecting with the head

07 July 2004, 10:12 PM
hpslashluvr. I slowed down the video in a video-editting program. It really helps. I played the slow version at a speed of 25% That's pretty slow, but you can really see him doing al the stuff.

About the chin thing :D that rimes :D Suppose you should either move the chin and underpart of it, to the fron or the neck back bit. But I'm sure you can tweak it out :)

07 July 2004, 04:17 AM
i dunno anything in the least bit about computers or comp progs...what editing prog you use? i think I just need to stop looking at this model for a while b/c it has all started to look the same and i keep screwing it up more and more

07 July 2004, 09:06 AM
I used the premier trial version from the adobe website, had to slow down some other movies too. But you can get the slower version even slower in windows media player 9, there's an option for playspeed. It's just a little bit slower, but it might just do it!

07 July 2004, 02:16 PM
I haven't really had time to go look at all the wires and refs, videos etc so the lips are still in "beta" mode, also i know the side of the face near the jaw looks flat

but i closed it, hopefully it is easier to see what's wrong

oh, and how do i model the tear drop thing above the top lip? everyone seems to do it differently

07 July 2004, 02:19 AM
another update

07 July 2004, 03:39 AM
Much better!


07 July 2004, 09:36 AM
Hi all!
I had the same problem with the lips so I start finding some good wireframe from this forum, I studied a bit and started doing only lips for a while....maybe one or two days only lips:) finally with some patience and experience I find it more intuitive right now but it is important to look at the pros' wireframe and good photo-reference offcourse ;)
The latest attachment doesn't seems bad at all, keep going!

07 July 2004, 06:46 PM
nice stuff, just define the muscles of the face a bit better (like the zygomatic arch for instance, as well as a muscle that hangs from the upper lips edge) then you can call yourself a success.

Dave Black
07 July 2004, 08:33 PM
Hey all.

I think I made a mistake if I suggested that the lips I made in that tutorial were the final product. I wanted to share topology and workflow issues as well as bring certain structures to light.


I wanted to mention that the topology I'm using is designed to show certain structures. These slight bulges and lipped creases are very important to the proper shading and description of lips. Just remember that lips occur anywhere on the body where skin changes type. There is always a very slight pucker around the lips and even nipples. Representing these geometrically can really punch out certain features.

Remeber, I'm sharing base topology's not about the proportions at this stage, but rather about defining the structures.

Here's a pic showing what I feel are some key areas...


Dave Black
07 July 2004, 08:42 PM
Oh yeah, and next time you guys have a problem viewing something I've done, please PM me. I need your feedback so I can help. I can start making realtime modeling vids with audio commentary IF you guys can stand a bigger download...

Let me know...


07 July 2004, 09:05 PM
yay! a mod posted in my thread! and this time not to warn me! ;)

OptimusDinkus: can you explain what you are talking about? i don't know anything about muscles etc

07 July 2004, 09:21 PM
Dave, Thanks man, lot's of info, in the screenies. I didn't had to much problems with the video, it was only veeeeeeeeeery fast, so I played the slow version at a speed of 25 % :D Some slower vids might be nice. Have you made any other? I'm always intrested :D Commentary would be really really cool :drool: Thanks for the video!

07 July 2004, 12:29 AM

If you need help with anatomy i would suggest this book -
"Atlas of Human Anatomy for the Artist" By Stephen Rogers Peck.
This book is one of the best i've seem on the matter.

Other than that i would suggest you study faces, bodies, etc..
go on google look for pics, look through some mags anything is better than nothing. :)

Hope this Helps!!

07 July 2004, 12:46 AM
sorry if i came off whiny and lazy like a real noob *looks innocent*

i have been staring at ppl's lips too long ;) for anything to register in my head

i just wasn't sure what the zygomatic arch was, it's not a typical word i use in my daily vocabulary x.x;;;

i'm planning to get an anatomy book soon tho, thanks for the tips

Dave Black
07 July 2004, 07:07 PM
I released a new modeling vid. Basic face setup. It's only 2X actual speed, instead of the last insanely fast one I did.

Check it out here:

07 July 2004, 07:08 PM
Thanks Dave, I'm downloading it right now ;)

07 July 2004, 07:11 PM
*kisses dave black* :bounce: :drool:

07 July 2004, 09:19 AM
You should try to define the facial areas better in general, they look kind of undefined/blurry (don't mean the screenshots).

I modeled the lips closed as it's easier to see what looks natural, an open mouth and all the deformation it causes on the face brings in too many factors to keep in mind.
Also, defining them clearly with some edgeloop helps you see what's really wrong with them.

My topology isnt necessarily the best, didn't read up or follow any tuts on the topic which wasn't my smartest decision.

you may look over the corner of the mouth, they are way to sharp and the overallshape is a bit to flat... dang my english ... well the corner of the mouth is too far in front of the head...

09 September 2004, 05:43 AM
i worked on it some today


09 September 2004, 11:52 PM
Much better !!


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