View Full Version : Character: Natalie

06 June 2004, 01:39 PM
Hi to all!!

I've finished modeling a character, and some people tell me that she has a little flat face, but nobody tell me what exactly I have to change to fix that. I'm posting now some head renders, the wires and some of my references. What I want to know is if you think the renders matches the references, if you see the head flat, and what I have to tweak to solve it, cause I really don't now it and I'm a bit obsessed with that.

I'm also starting to think how to do the hair. I'm want to do a hair as in the right-bottom reference. What system yould you recommend me??

I also started a thread in the wip section with all the body and clothes, if you want to see it ->

Here are the renders:

Here are the wires:

And here the references:

06 June 2004, 02:04 PM
Had the same problem on one of my first tries of modelling a human face, also a female.

Well I really cant give any breakthrough tips, cause all you really have to do is just try and tweak it more and more. But try radical changes. Eyes for example are not falt (on top view I bet your eyes are at almost the same level). You should also pay attention to the level-line from the outside of the eye to the tip of the mouth line. Everything outside of that usually starts forming the face, and as you can see on your shots, comparing with the reference pics, the face goes more "round" there. It makes a turn and loses the flatness if you pull everything back from there.

Another thing Id suggest is you to rotate the face into the same positions as the face on the reference pictures, and see the difference where you should make changes.

06 June 2004, 05:00 PM
The countour from just below the eye, across the cheekbone to the corner of the mouth needs to be a definite shallow C shape - but yours is very shallow. Compare against your lower left reference pic in particular.
Your wires show very little evidence of a definite cheek bone.

I suggest you take a step sideways and reprise the exercise of doing a (bone) skull, then adding the major muscles to it. You will never achieve a credible surface unless and until your underlying anatomy is right.

06 June 2004, 05:17 PM
I suggest inserting some geometry for eyebrows just to get a sense of placement. It's good to have that for measurements sake. I notice that the bridge on the ref pic is not as flat as you have it in your model

06 June 2004, 05:20 PM
I'm not a 3d artist so take what I say with a grain of salt. I agree that the face looks flat. Look at a picture of the human skull, focusing on its contours. Starting at the forehead, her skull should be narrower in the front than in back. Considering the outline of the skull, it's pinched up near the hairline, there are indentations at each temple, it widens at the brow, recedes around the eye sockets and bumps out again at the cheekbone. Looking at profile there should be a slight ridge where the brow is. I'm not sure if your woman's eyes are recessed enough, but there's too little indication of a cheekbone. Her nose looks too long for her face and doesn't seem to leave enough room for her mouth.

06 June 2004, 06:26 PM
It also looks like the forehead is way to round and there is no brow above the eye. I'd suggest contouring the forehead a bit more. It's especially evident from the profile view of the character. Fixe that and I think the head will be fine.

06 June 2004, 01:51 PM
Thanks for the replies, keep them comming, they are really useful. Now I'm doing a list of all I think I have to tweak, with your comments and looking to the references, and I will fix it as soon as I have free time.

The most important thing is to move the eyes back, and then all the cheek zone will move back, the nose will look a little bigger and I will try to round all the cheek zone. I will do little tweaks to the chin, the ears, to nose, the brows... But I think the most important will be the eyes.

06 June 2004, 01:34 PM
Here you have the head changed after a morning of tweakings and tweakings. Now I've see her much better. The only thing I'm not sure is that maybe now the brows are too much pronounced... what do you think???

06 June 2004, 11:39 PM
I've done some changes to the brow zone. Now probably that's the final version of the head. Do you find something more to tweak?

06 June 2004, 04:26 AM
Your ear does not meld well with the head. It almost looks as if it was just pressed in, rather than attached. In addition, the lobe is weird, there should be no ridge down it like that.

06 June 2004, 06:01 AM
As you said, the face seems flat, which is a common mistake in building faces -- I've done it myself. The reason seems to be from the foreshortening that occurs in a photograph, particularly when the images is taken straight on.
If you look at the reference picture in the upper right, you'll notice her features sweep back rather quickly to create a smooth line from the muzzle of the face, through the cheekbones, back to the temple and ear.

Just as an experiment, try pushing the corners of her mouth back a bit more as well as the fatty part there and narrowing her jaw. Compared to the reference picture, your model's jaw appears way too beefy. The narrow jaw is an effeminate trait that you should emphasize (or emphasise if you're a Brit) here.

Also, try moving the outside corners of her eyes backward a bit as well as create a bit more of a dent in that area as shown in the reference image.

Her forehead is a bit blocky. Remember to taper it a bit in the temporal region and make her forehead begin it's sweep backward a touch lower.

Keep it up. You're moving in the right direction!

By the way, who is the girl in the reference image. She's gorgeous.

06 June 2004, 07:06 PM
Hi, I had this post ready a couple of days ago.. I couldn't post it due to the site maintance, it is perfect now, so here it is..

I made a graphic based on what I THINK you should change in order to improve your character...
You can see the diferences here..

Keep working like that... compliments.!

Oh, I almost forget, I would like to know the name of the model too.. she is just perfect.

Thank you

Ps. Just in case you dont notice the changes, I moved the nose and lips up a little bit, add some roundness on the cheek, straighted the forehead a little too.

06 June 2004, 09:59 AM
Thanks for your replies. Now I've started with the rigging just to do something diferent and maybe this way when I finish I will see her head with more perspective and I will do the final tweaks.

Really I don't know her real name, cause I found her in diferent sites with diferent names while searching for a woman to model. What I've found is Natalie (yes, I'm not very original... :P), Nastasha, Ruby... I think she's just a nude photography model.

06 June 2004, 07:14 PM
Head update... Hoping to be the last one :p... well, I've changed more or less what you've said, so the nose is shorter, I've changed a little the ear, the chin, curved a little more the mouth and I've tried to unflat all the zones arround the eyes. Tell me if this time is ok or not, or if it's better at least.

06 June 2004, 09:23 PM
WOW! She's so pretty! ;) Do you have her phonenumber? :love: :rolleyes:

But, the model is really cool; very relaxt! I really like that shape, and she looks very realistic and natural! I can see really good that she's a girl (I know it's pretty tricky to give it a 'girl' sign).

Only critiques;
- Make her earhole more deep
- Give her a nicer 'deepest point of ear' (I don't know how to tell; the part were a earring is stack into ;) )

Really promising!

06 June 2004, 10:33 AM
Thanks Dutchman!! Here you have the render I've been doing this night. It's the same, just rendered it to see better the model.

06 June 2004, 10:49 PM
I've been doing some quick skinning tests (not really started), and I have a problem. When I move her legs, in the body-leg connection zone, the vertexs of the leg enter inside the body structure in a really bad way. I don't know if I just have to work on the skin parameters or if the leg bones are in a bad position.

Looking at the image, if the red line is where I want the leg to bend, anybody know if leg bones are in the right position or if I have to move them up or down? There's some kind of rule about that??

06 June 2004, 01:05 AM
Just a few points to looks at:
- pull eyeballs/lids back a little
- cheek bones need to be scaled in for more curve
- relook at front of the nose

It takes time to get a human head looking well, but keep practising.
And have fun!

06 June 2004, 01:59 AM
Howdy Woody

You got a lot of crits about flatness of the face. This happens often because we focus attention on the front and side views. You might be thinking 'well when the hair is on and all the details it will be bingo' however the better your model looks raw the better it looks when its all detailed up.

A neat way to trick yourself into making things rounder is to take a 3/4 view from the top and 3/4 view from the front and realise that you started out with a box mindset. This will help you push stuff back on the corners to the inside of the box, this will get things looking rounder.

She is a very pretty girl but in all fairness she has a bit flatter face to begin with.

I would make the the cheek bones a bit rounder in the outward 45 degree direction (even in the relaxed state) and take mass off the area between the chin and extreme outter point of the jawbone in an inward 45 degree direction.

When I get to this stage I make a copy of the head and go bannanas on it in a new document so I am free not to worry about ruining the base model. 9 out of 10 it works.

Real nice wireframe BTW!
Greetings Kanga

06 June 2004, 02:09 PM
When I get to this stage I make a copy of the head and go bannanas on it in a new document so I am free not to worry about ruining the base model. 9 out of 10 it works

This is so true.

Load it into a new scene and tweak magnet her to shape up the skull,it really helps getting a nice head to know how the skull is shaped.

The ear is a bit too thick in some areas IMO.

The eyesockets aren't enough 'in' the face,push them inside a bit and definitely adjust the mid-corner of the eyes,it should be slightly ahead of the one on the other side.

There is an easy way to do this,just make the eyes and the head part of the same object and select all vertice on the eye then switch on and adjust your magnet and move it,works nice.

Push in the skin of the lower cheek between the mouth and the ear to make up that jaw bone a tad more visible(careful not to make it too masculine though).

06 June 2004, 02:25 PM
very nice work, like the references too

excellenttttttt!!!!!!!!!!!!! :applause:

07 July 2004, 02:14 AM
In reference to the leg/hip problem - the tip of the bone is its rotational axis so all connected verts will orbit that point (weight dependent), so you want it right at your crease or your crease will move, also bones will never give you perfect deformation at the hip as there is a lot of volume, which is trouble - and the crease is at an angle, which is also some trouble.

Maybe try to move the femur up or the crease down as you will also want good defomation in the 'rear' and make a morph or some secondary deformer to fix it from there.

07 July 2004, 05:48 AM
Hey thats really impressive! and dont forget, not everyone have round faces :p

07 July 2004, 02:02 PM
Thanks for all the comments. I've started with the skining of the body and if I decide to change more things on her head I will do it when I finish (I've tested it and there was no problems with the skinned parts), cause I needed to take a rest from her head. Now the legs are finished, tell me what do you think. I know this are not a really good poses (she's crossing the floor or floating in some places :P), but I just rendered them fast, so if you want I will post some more. At the end I moved a little up the leg bone and used morpher to solve it (as mkt said), but I actually hate all the skinning and creating morphers process... :( It's boooring and really slow, and I've been searching for a good way to create morphers and I didn't find it. Anyway, lets talk about the legs, tell me if you find something that looks weird or that could be better.

07 July 2004, 02:21 AM
I've been doing some quick skinning tests (not really started), and I have a problem. When I move her legs, in the body-leg connection zone, the vertexs of the leg enter inside the body structure in a really bad way. I don't know if I just have to work on the skin parameters or if the leg bones are in a bad position.

Looking at the image, if the red line is where I want the leg to bend, anybody know if leg bones are in the right position or if I have to move them up or down? There's some kind of rule about that??
heh .. not a bad model for a WIP ... not much to say other than ... PLEASE remove the meat that hangs down .. thats not ever a good thing .. i know this is not the focus of your model, and generally ... its not the focus of characters .. however, you have modeled the vagina in, and you've posed her in ways in later pictures that shows its clearly all there, ... just my thought though :) ... anybody else a fan of the beef curtain?

07 July 2004, 12:46 PM
The vagina doesn't bother me... It's anatomy, right? You would see the same thing when taking life drawing. I object to the fact that it's called a "beef curtain". That show little respect for the female beings in this world.

You're right, it's not the focus of the model in general so there isn't anything in bad taste I think.


07 July 2004, 05:31 PM
Hey all,

We are all adults here. This is a great WIP and to say the least I am jealous now. :) ;) Beef curtain? Don't call it that. We are artists and most of us have done nude studies. If you have not then you will more than likely never be able to fully model the human form correctly. All of his shots are in good taste. Yeah he modeled her vagina. Good he should have because if he did not then he would be much more likely to make a mistake. I have run into this when I did not model the penis on my character and it threw off the pelvis for a long time until I could finally figure out what I had done wrong. Keep up the good work. I hope this makes it on the front page when you finish.

Nate Nesler :thumbsup:

07 July 2004, 05:38 PM

Post some more leg and feet shots. The calf muscle looks off from the side view but looks right from the back view. I am not sure if you need more definition on the bottom of the feet for the balls of the feet or not. I need some more shots to be able to tell. Regardless your feet and legs look really good.

Nate Nesler :D

07 July 2004, 01:45 PM
My english is not perfect and I don't know what "beef curtain" exactly means, but I can imagine it... Anyway, I can't say much more than what Brötje and MatrixNAN had said. I'm just trying to make her as real as I can, so each body part is as important as the others, and I don't think there's nothing bad with showing all the body anathomy. But in the legs images I was not trying to specially show that part, I just moved her legs, so sorry if anybody feeled bad for that.

Anyway, I will try to render some more poses as MatrixNAN says during this weekend and I will post it here (Have no much time this days, so I can post it inmediatly, sorry).

07 July 2004, 12:31 AM
i think her eyes need to be moved into her head a little bit more. One of my teachers told me a rule once that if you take the angle of the bridge of the nose and extend it from the wing, it will meet with the corner of the eyes. I made a little illustration hope it helps:

3rd Dimentia
07 July 2004, 02:47 AM
The biggest thing that stands out to me is that the lines down the side of where the nose blends onto the cheek area is way too pronounced....... Noses really flow onto the cheekbones more.

Nice butt.

07 July 2004, 09:37 AM
Thanks for the comments on her head. Now I'm working on the body, but I'm not ignoring them, cause I will do a last tweaking session when I finish with the body skinning.Here are some more shots of her legs. I don't know if this shows what MatrixNaN was saying, cause I'm not sure where's the calf muscle (:p), but here they are. Looking at the left leg on the front view I think I will have to tweak a little more the part where the leg and the body blends.

07 July 2004, 09:53 AM
The model is looking pretty good. I would work on the jawline. She has a little bit of a gowel. Take a bit off the sides and lengthen the chin a tad. Keep you the good work

07 July 2004, 08:22 AM
A little more skinning. Here you have the arms skinned till the elbow. Now comes a difficult part, cause there are lots of bones affecting the same zones.

07 July 2004, 08:44 AM

I think you fixed it. The Calf muscle is below the knee on the backside of the leg. The feet look perfect from what I can tell. Your model is insanely good. If you don't get on the front page then I think I am going to be depressed. lol ;) :) He even modeled the veins on the hands and the bone impressions on the skin. Very nice. You might want to focus on the back next. The shoulder blades deforming the skin don't really seem to be there hardly. Which would be surprising considering how little fat she has on her body. Shoulder blades are the scapula bones that attach to the humerus bone. I am going off of memory so hopefully I named the right bones. lol Just a thought to define the back some more. Your so good its scary. lol

Nate Nesler

07 July 2004, 08:51 AM

Oh yeah this is getting picky but put in the depression in the nipples that lies in the center so that the mother can give milk to a baby and maybe add some definition to the overall nipple. I can't quite tell if you have added some definition to the overall nipple or not. Can you give a more up close shot of it. Otherwise, great nipples.

Nate Nesler

07 July 2004, 09:43 AM
Thanks MatrixNaN, it seems you always do double-posts :). I think you're right about the shoulder blades, I will have to make that part "grow" a little. The nipples are just what you can see, cause I thought I will add details with texture. Anyway, what I've done is create two morph targets to control the nipples, so I can change between a "cold room" and a more relaxed ones. I will show it in the next update, when I finish the skinning of the torso. (It's a really dificult part, I don't know where to start)

07 July 2004, 07:07 AM
From what I can see, the nose is a tad too long and her back could use more flesh masses (upper back)

07 July 2004, 05:25 PM
what I've done is create two morph targets to control the nipples, so I can change between a "cold room" and a more relaxed ones.

HAHA...too funny

08 August 2004, 08:39 AM
I still think the face needs a lot of work. Check out this link for a close-to-perfect head-on view...the jaw is nothing like yours:

Also, have you tried rotating your model to match the exact angles of your references? If not, you should, and that would show you where the face is wrong.

The body looks amazingly close to Natalie's actual body and the model is overall great, but the face doesn't do her justice.

I tried to model an Asian girl using result was clearly human, and eventually I got it to look female, but I could never get it looking Asian, let alone like my refs!! So, I know it's not easy, but keep at it! The extra face work will be worth it in the end.

08 August 2004, 09:10 AM
Here's an update, it's almost finished. She can move everything except the upper arm. She can move it down, but not up, forward or below... Well, it can be moved, but in a gore way. :P

08 August 2004, 11:35 AM
Very Impressive,

Did you do morph targets for the breasts too not just the nipples because I noticed that when she is leaning back the breasts pull up just like in real life as the skin pulls tighter. I have to give it to you that is very accurate. Wow. Do you have it setup if she leans over too. Also are you going to setup muscle jiggle for her whole body? You are doing a great job. I am assuming you are going to give her hair and shade her.

Nate Nesler

08 August 2004, 02:22 PM
I was waiting for your second post, MatrixNaN :D. Yes, you're right, I'm using morph targets for the nipples and others for the breasts. With a combination of bones and morphs I control the shape of her breasts depending on the "gravity" and if she's moving up the arm or not. I'm gonna add her hair when I finish with the skinning of the body and clothes. But sorry, I don't know what "muscle jiggle" means.

graphacks -> Thanks, I have that image too, but I don't know what's wrong with her head. I've seen the front is too large now, and I'm gonna fix it, but I don't know what's wrong with the jaw, for example. I've compared with lots of images but I never found something specially wrong. I hope with brows, and hair it will be easier to see what's exactly wrong.

08 August 2004, 07:59 PM
Very nice! Perhaps when you are finished you could post a full wire of the body? Your model is looking like a great reference for my future projects!! GREAT JOB!

08 August 2004, 11:14 PM
The body looks perfect man...nice job with the bone streching in the upper sternum....about the head...I've loked at it for a while because something does need to be ..."tweaked"..for me.. look to the forehead and try and bring the area above the brow back and down a bit, that's where the "square" look really still lies in my opinion...keep it up though excelent work for your first human model...:thumbsup:

Earthen Marine Project

08 August 2004, 09:40 PM
Moonlit Matt -> Of course. Just let me finish the body skinning and do the last tweaks on her head and I will post that wires.

essencedesign -> I hope you're right. This is the only thing I'm sure about the head, the upper part is too high. Maybe tweaking this the whole head will look ok. I will have a hard comparing-images day when I tweak this...

08 August 2004, 11:41 AM
It seems I've finished with the body skinning. I've just done this renders in strange poses just to test it, but I don't like the actual render (it's too laaarge and there are some too white parts and some too black shadows). I will try to change it soon. I also changed a little the head, I've reduced the upper part. I will post closer shots of the head soon. Anyway, now I will start with the hair, but I didn't decided yet... shag or ornatrix??? Anybody knows which is better???

And here are the body wires you asked me

08 August 2004, 02:01 PM
Amazing work. I love your mesh.

I've used Shag before, and it is quite a powerful program. Lots and lots of tweaking options, and quite nice for animation. Not bad on render time either.

As for ornatrix, I've just last week downloaded it and started to play around. It's fairly simple to set up some nice looking stuff, but I haven't gone deep enough to really get to the nitty gritty. It IS free though, and looks like it has lots of potential.

Good luck!

08 August 2004, 12:09 AM
Here are the closer shots of the (I hope) final head. Now I'm gonna start with the hair, so I could see better if the head is ok or not.

08 August 2004, 04:20 PM
i don't know if somebody else already told you this,but I'll tell you all the same,the eyes area need some extra work,I explain,in my opinion all the area sorrounding the eye needs to be defined,eyebrows are naturally 'sculpted' into a human face,but your model shows no 'curve' for them...also the eye socket should be deeper...or maybe should be located deeper...

anyway,great body,excellent rigging....nothing else to say.

08 August 2004, 07:20 AM
Hey There:

Your model is looking way cool.

Can't wait to see her with some hair eyebrows and eyelashes. They will make a huge difference to the appearance of the model. I don't know about you, but bald women don't really do it for me!

A couple of small critiques:

In my opinion, your model's ears are too big and slightly too high compared with your [gorgeous] reference model. Maybe you're not too worried, because they'll be covered with hair later on???

Keep up the primo work

08 August 2004, 03:48 AM
Ok, here's what's wrong with the head. I took that jpg I posted earlier of Natalie's face, traced it, and then superimposed it on your model. The eyes, nose, and mouth seem to be placed correctly, but her head is too small for her features. I think in the pic I traced her head might've been tilted slightly back, so you could make her chin a little smaller than my yellow line, but it does need to be bigger. Also, her bottom lip should be thicker.

08 August 2004, 04:32 PM
Hi. Excelent model, but I noticed in the picture of the model on her back looking up to the sky, there's some wierd creasing in her right leg where the thigh meets the torso. Other than that, very good.

08 August 2004, 07:12 PM
Hey Woody,

The creases in the arm are unnatural when she bends her arm. Not enough roundness in the creases and extreme. Nice job on the breasts deformation and dynamics when she moves from position to position. I notice they hang and fall and everything just like they really would. Very impressive. Could you tell us what kind of rig setup you are using on the breasts because its really cool.

Nate Nesler

08 August 2004, 11:27 PM
Thanks for the comments, they are really useful.

I've started with the hair (with the eyebrows) and finally I'm using shag, but I have a problem, maybe somebody can help me. I've used a few hairs to define the eyebrow direction, but when I move the head, that hairs don't move and I lose the right direction. I have to attach that model hairs to somewhere or is there a way to fix the hair when you're happy with the result???

Profane -> This has been a constant problem with her face... now I want to see how she looks with the hair, eyebrows... to see better the problem.

Shawshank -> I prefer women with hair, too. :D The ears will be partially covered with the hair, so I don't know if this will be a problem or not. I will first finish the hair and then I will see how she looks.

graphacks -> I've done the same superimposing with that and some more images I have, and sometimes it seems you're right and sometimes it seems she's ok like she's now... So I still don't know if I will change it or not :P.

HallWayStudios -> Yes, you're right. I think the lighting was not helping there, cause shadows are too dark, but anyway I will look to it.

MatrixNAN -> I will try to do a minitutorial, cause that's one of the more complex parts. Ok, look at the image. I'm controling the breasts with that 2 bones that grow from the spine and with morphers. I just rotate that bones depending on the orientation of the body (or the gravity if you prefer) and depending of the arms.

When she's looking down the bones rotate so they are closer of each other, and when she's looking up they rotate to be far of each other, and depending of the angle of inclination and position they will rotate more or less, as if the gravity was afecting them. I also have morph targets that changes the breasts shape when that bones rotate, so they change the breast shape depending on if she's looking up or down.

But what's dificult is how we know where is the body looking at. That top image are 3 helpers I created forward the breasts. The A helpers are linked to B helper, and B helper is linked to a helper on the spine. the distance betwen them is of 1 unit. So when the spine changes it's orientation, the B helper will rotate and will move the A helpers too. What I have with this are two vectors that tell me where's the spine looking at. Then I use expresions like this to control bones rotation:

dependsOn $Help_Orientació_Centre
V = $Help_Orientació_Centre.Position.Z - $Help_Orientació_Davant.Position.Z;
H = $Help_Orientació_Centre.Position.Z - $Help_Orientació_Costat.Position.Z;
Rot = degToRad(V*15 - H*15);

V and H are just the B.Z_position - A.Z_position, one for each A helper, and it will take values betwen -1 and 1. One of them controls if she's bending up or down, and the other if she's rotation to the sides, and the addition of the two give me all the posible positions. I don't know if I'm explaining it well, but if you create that helper structure and try the script it will be easier to understand.

For the arm position, I just rotate the breast bone up when she moves up the arm and there's another morph target that helps changing a little more the breast shape.

If you have problems with this just ask me.
Hope this helps!!

08 August 2004, 09:34 AM
Pretty impressive so far =)

I'd pump up her calves if I were you, just a bit to give them form -not necessarily definition.

I think the face needs a lift, as this is what will definately yell CG if left unchanged. Hair won't be able to cover this up.

Try applying Marquardts archetypal mask to it.

And when will we see animation tests? I'd love to see how your rig/skinning holds up when deforming over time, especially the area around the knees when sitting/reposing. Keep up the good work!

08 August 2004, 08:36 PM
Here's what I've been doing with shag. I will probably tweak it a little more, but tell me what do you think of the eyebrows and eyelids.

Btw, she's not textured yet, I just changed the lighting and put an orange color to the skin.

heino -> I'm not planning to animate her, just to take some shots from diferent poses.

08 August 2004, 06:40 PM
Ok, here's an update... of the head... another time... I was planing to do first the hair but comparing two images with photoshop I saw big diferences between the refs and my model and reworked on it... ANOOOOOOTHEEEEER time... But this will be the last (I've said this so many times that it has no sense...), now I see her really human and seemed to the references. I know that maybe the way the ears enters in the head can be done better, but it will be covered with hair and I've lost too much time with it.

This are just some fast renders. Oh, and I've rigged the eyes, just for fun. :p

08 August 2004, 02:32 AM
I justed wanted to say that she's looking absolutely great. Those eyebrows and -lashes make all the difference. I'm amazed by how much personality she already has in those last renders, even without textures. Keep it up mate, this is gonna be wicked :)

08 August 2004, 06:32 AM
wow. the improvements on the face are amazing. congratulations.:thumbsup:

08 August 2004, 03:43 PM
Thanks for the comments... I hope this will really be the last time I change her head.

08 August 2004, 08:16 AM
Hey Woody,

You nailed it on the face great job. This is going to be really good. I will have to look at that rig more than once. I can honestly say I have never seen a rig done like that before. I might look at how I could incorperate the element design into a full muscle system rig. Anyhow you continue to amaze. Is this for a contract job or to boost your demo reel?

Nate Nesler

08 August 2004, 08:36 AM
she 's defenetly better with the eyebrows and the eyes rigged....

08 August 2004, 10:17 AM
Thanks!! Happy to see the head seems to be finally ok.

MatrixNaN -> This is a personal project, just to have something to show to pick a good job. I'm also trying to finish this to send it to the Expose3, but that will be really difficult. Anyway, I have nothing to lose trying it.

09 September 2004, 02:00 PM
Here are my first steps with the hair. She will have a complex braid where the hair will go down, then up to where the braid start and finally down another time. For the moment this is just the hair before starting the braid. In some parts you can see the head through the hair, but I will solve it painting that head part with a hair texture, cause I want to save memory this way.

I will really apreciate comments about the hair, I want to know if I'm going in the correct direction or not, what do you think???

Keith Young
09 September 2004, 06:06 PM
Nice looking model... I think her ears are quite a bit too far back on her head though. Also, the back side (and top) of her cranium could use some adjusting. See the attached image.

09 September 2004, 11:29 AM
I've done the braid. I think the braid is ok, what do you think??? (Just the shape, not the shader nor the lighting). Now I will go back the hair over her head to tweak it, and also I will change the shader.

Keith -> Maybe you're right, I really had no references about how the bald head has to be. Anyway I will try to get the correct shape with the hair.

09 September 2004, 01:27 AM
Hey Woody,

I agree after looking at her head in several more shots, the ear does need to be brought forward. Its too far back by the amount he illustrated. As for the hair I love what you did with the hair in the back however in the front of the head the hair does not have enough volume to it and it looks plastered on like she has really thin hair and a ton of gel on it. Her hair needs to be alot thicker than that on top. I like I said I love the back especially the little wisp of hair. Character modeling takes forever to get it right.

Nate Nesler

09 September 2004, 06:55 PM
Ok, I will look to my references, but I will only move the ear if there's an important diference between the images, cause if I change it I will have to work a lot on the hair to adapt to the ears new position. Anyway, I think that image is a standard, but not everybody looks as the standard. I have the ears more or less in the same position than Natalie (Yes, I've been posing on the mirror...).About the hair, I'm agree with you, now I'm working in all the hair over her head to give it more volume, but it's dificult to control... and I will also work more on the shader.

09 September 2004, 09:24 PM
damn she is pretty!

The area around the eyes and forehead is what makes it look flat. Also, her lips can be fuller. Her nose seems a little bit to pronounced. The edges of the bridge can be softer.

Now you have the fun part of trying to figure out what the hell I mean.

09 September 2004, 07:32 PM
What's she on? Her upper eyelids shouldn't be so high unless she has just been goosed. Take a look at the eyes in Keith Young's avatar.

09 September 2004, 10:12 PM
Thanks for the comments!

Here's an update on the hair. I will change that uncombed hairs over the head, so don't look at it. I will also work a little more on her sideburns, doing them a little more wide and adding some more hairs falling down. Also I've seen the braid shader looks bad, so I will work on that too. But what do you think in general about the hair?? And also, what about adding another light to add some more specular highlights (lower than the front ones) in the backside??? Do you think it will be better or not???

I will really apreciate comments about this!!

09 September 2004, 06:18 PM
Ive been reading the post and very impressed with the progress, good job on that wood3d! Just wanna ask what hair shader are you using? Its the nicest hair ive seen in wip. Keep up the good work! :thumbsup:

09 September 2004, 07:05 PM
Thanks. Really the hair shader is nothing special. I'm using shag hair, so it's a hair shader with almost black diffuse and about 60 - 30 of specular - glossines, I really don't remember the exact values now, but nothing special on that. The problem I had is I wanted to have two speculars, one brown and wide and another white and more shiny, and for some reason this hair shader from shag don't accept none of the compositing materials that max has... So what I really have is two shaders, one with a white specular and another with a brown one, and I render twice (just the hair zone) and then I merge them in photoshop.

09 September 2004, 12:18 AM
Hey Woody,

Ok I see a problem with the hair but its being very very picky of me so you can feel free to disregard it. There are no roots on the front of her hair as it is being combed over so it tends to look more like a wig than real hair. Like I said very picky. I like the stray hairs its more realistic. Are you going to use Subsurface Scattering for the hair shading, or a fake Subsurface Scattering. I agree with the eye lids comment. Her eyes are opened to the surprised look right now. Overall excellent work.

Nate Nesler

09 September 2004, 03:20 AM
I'm really in awe of your model's body. So I'm sorry to say, I think you need to tweak the head one more time. The upper forehead is too prominent. In general, the front plane of the face is a little too far forward, creating too long of a stretch to the ear. More, the front plane is leaning too far forward relative to the ear and neck, so the distance between the ear and the chin is pretty close to what it should be, but it gets increasing longer and more problematic scanning vertically up the head. This really shows in the second-to-latest hair render. Imagine the hair as three layers (it looks like this is how you've done it). The bottom layer is the sideburn, the middle is the stuff around the temple, and the top is coming out the front and center of her head. You need to bring down the middle and top layers. Foreheads are rather sloping, not flat like we usually imagine them. And the eyebrow usually comes really close to the temple area hairs.

The back of the ponytail is really good. To fix the plastered look in the front, you need more hair control curves. Not all hairs in the top layer can start along the part. They must also start along the hairline curving around the front of the head. This is because hairs sprout from the head essentially orthogonal to the head's surface. The consequence is that if you were to try to volumize the hair in the front, we'd see under the top layer like under a helmet. We need to see the hairs sprout all along the hairline and curve under the top layer, unless you mean to hide the area entirely with excessive bang action (more often than not, 3d artists opt for the latter).

Sorry if I'm harsh. You can get me back when I post my model. You're doing great work. Really.

09 September 2004, 05:48 AM
The modeling has really improved and is now quite good looking i say! Only crit i got is her nose, not sure wether its been mentioned before but it looks like too simple boxmodeling. Love the hair though and the rest of her face!

09 September 2004, 06:59 AM
what sticks out to me is the forehead, slant it back instead of foreward. i've never seen a forehead go foreward. at least 80 degrees.try looking at side views of people's faces, and even study bone anatomy, i hope that helps. keep up the good work!

09 September 2004, 03:22 PM
a bit of a late post in this game, i know, but if you are not familiar with, you can find tons of tasteful galleries with this particular model. many, many nice character refs for the female. no male, though. will have to go to for a more ballanced model selection

09 September 2004, 12:29 AM
For what I can see in my references, the hair in the front seems to be really combed this way, with no visible roots on the front. Anyway, I still have to tweak some more things of the hair. I actually changed the sideburns (they are more wide now) and some little adjustments, and I still want to tweak the uncombed hairs so maybe I can try to add some in that zone, to test how it looks. But now I'm working on the facial rigging, to take a rest from the hair and to see it with more time perspective.

MatrixNan -> No, I'm not gonna use sub-surface scatering. Brazil render will take me a lot without it for sure, so I'm not gonna add it cause it will take me too much to render. About the eyes, I tought I replied to it, but I forgot it. Now are opened at 100%, so in the surprise position. When I finish the facial rigging I will post some renders with normal eyes.

Mimesis -> Don't worry, everytime I say "the head is finsished", a new bug apears. :D I've been comparing with the reference, and it's posible that the temple has to be moved down. I will look to that things when I will be back to the hair.

kaffo -> Yes, some more people tell me that they look strange that part, but I really can't find in the references what's going wrong.

MonsterMan -> Really the last side image I posted with the hair was not a perfect side view, the view was a bit rotated. So maybe in the side view the problem is not as exagerated. I worked a lot in that part, and the last time I looked it I was convinced.

DangerousCliff -> Yes, I know it, this was one of the sites where I found references of her. But this kind of images have the problem of being impossible to find a good reference of the front head, or the side, or anything... And you're right, you can find more or less this kind of references with women, but it's impossible with men. I think we need more sites as fineart.

09 September 2004, 04:34 AM
hair looks too flat try making it boof up a bit ,Nice model but

3rd Dimentia
09 September 2004, 05:00 AM
I think the area around the nostrils and top lip needs more work.

09 September 2004, 08:07 PM
Here's some progres on the facial rigging. I'm not doing a very complex rigging, just to make her smile, open mouth, open/close eyes and basic things. It's not finished yet cause I want to tweak some more things to have a little more control in some parts and fix a few bugs I've seen, but I think is a good point to start with the crits, so tell me what do you think.

09 September 2004, 02:14 AM
The top teeth look really good at these shot angles. The bottom teeth seem to be flat and just kinda floating there.

The right-most expression is really scary looking. The creases seem way too deep, but most of the problem may be simply that the rest of the face isn't contorted to match the extreme of the smile.

Otherwise, looking good.

09 September 2004, 02:39 AM
The top teeth look really good at these shot angles. The bottom teeth seem to be flat and just kinda floating there.

The right-most expression is really scary looking. The creases seem way too deep, but most of the problem may be simply that the rest of the face isn't contorted to match the extreme of the smile.

Otherwise, looking good.

09 September 2004, 11:07 PM
Here's a render of the last face with some changes to improve it.

Maark Karraen
10 October 2004, 12:28 PM
The expressions are great, theres a suprising amount of life in those eyes even without colour, very nice!

10 October 2004, 06:13 PM
i think that the work you did is still awesome. for hairstyles i would choose the one on the top right, but whatever floats your boat. if you like the one on the bottom right, do what you feel like would accentuate your character. for the flat face comment, i think the nose is not as flat as you made it, its not terribly off, just somewhat noticable. I think the lips look a little small compared to your model. and maybe raise the cheekbones slightly not too much though. before you finalize any of my recommendations make sure you like how it looks, because it is your character, not mine.

10 October 2004, 08:56 PM
Thanks for that.

I've been working on the skin shader and obiously on the lighting. Here you have two tests in a little set I've done (I know it's really simple, but I prefer to focus on her...). One is just lighted with the sun and the sky an in the other I'm trying to simulate artificial lighting. The skin has just a shader, no textures yet. Also the room materials are semi-finished so feel free to comment about that, but I really want crits about the skin, how does it looks and what can I do to improve it.

10 October 2004, 09:22 PM
Here are some corrections I've done today. Basically I changed the color to a more tanned one and reduced the specular level, but I'm still not sure about that, so it will be nice some more feedback about the skin, cause I'm not completelly sure about how it looks.

And sorry for the small images.

10 October 2004, 01:38 AM
She looks like she's made out of bronze. Turning the specular highlights down is definitely the way to go. But look at her head in the picture on the left. Still looks bronze. Are you faking translucence? You should be. Take a look at the skin1.1 shader on She needs more pink, less deep-fried brown.

10 October 2004, 07:09 AM
After seeing how in depth this critique has been, I feel like i've missed the party!

Her skin is, yes, bronze looking and I know skin is a hard thing to get down path. I'm not sure how I can help in the department sadly. But the modeling is well done and posability very sweet.

I'll venture by this thread more for i'm quite interested in seeing the final product :D

10 October 2004, 09:36 AM
Oh, if you don't know what I mean by "faking translucence," check out Steven Stalhberg's tutorial on the subject:

10 October 2004, 07:41 PM
pretty nice and challenging model but Try to fix the ear problem

10 October 2004, 09:23 PM
Yes, I'm doing a kind of faking translucence, but it's a bit diferent than in stalhberg's tutorial cause I use max and not maya, but more or less is that. I hope once the textures are done it will look better, but anyway, even in the last update highlights looks to high??

10 October 2004, 05:25 PM
Here's some progress on the skin. Now the shader has textures, they aren't definitive cause I till want to tweak a few things, but I wanted to post it here to have some feedback about how's it going. As in the last updates, there's one image with natural lighting and the other with artificial lighting. Any comment about the shader/texture/lighting on her head will be great. Don't mind the eyes, I now they scare now, but they are not textured yet. Also I forgot to exclude some lights of lighting the brows in the second render, but this is not important for this test.

10 October 2004, 05:40 PM
Hey Woody,

When the hard bright light shines on her face it looks great, but when darking lower lighting appears on the skin the skin seems to glow. The skin does not look natural because it never does actually get dark its just kind of glows. You nailed the bright lighting on the skin correctly.

Nate Nesler

10 October 2004, 05:44 PM
Hey Woody,

Here this is what I am talking about.

By the way the lips are really good.

Here is a link to his whole webpage
Nate Nesler

10 October 2004, 05:52 PM
i noticed the nosetrails are a little odd.

10 October 2004, 11:34 PM
looks good, but I'd agree that the face looks to flat.. did you freestyle this character or use any reference?, might be worth looking at some profile photos

10 October 2004, 01:52 PM
Here's a little update I did yesterday. I just tweaked a bit down the self-ilumination. What do you think, she looks better or not?

MatrixNaN -> I don't know if she looks better with this tweaking, I think now she doesn't seems glowing (or glows less than in the last update). In your image all the light comes from her back, and in mine all comes from her front, so the skin can't be as dark as in that image. I'm not saying it can't be wrong, but it can't be as darker as there. Anyway, If the bright parts are ok is a good point to start with the body and to see the overall effect. This way I think it will be better to see the shader.

[Bl0b] -> There are some references on the first page so you can compare.

10 October 2004, 04:38 PM
Hey Woody,

Her is skin is still glowing not as bad as in the first one but still needs more work in the dark areas. The skin image to the left is fine the one to the right is the problem. You have a nice bright hard light against her skin and then the rest of her skin seems to be ambient lit instead of darkening in regions so it gives the appearance that it is glowing. In the image to the right the background is darker and yet her skin appears as if it is being lit from behind only on the very edges and not creeping up across the rest of her skin which is wrong even if she was being back lit. You probably want to create a dark region skin shading part in your shader because as it is you don't seem to have one. Its either all bright or medium lighting but no dark lighting possibilities. Still none the less what you have so far is pretty good. :) ;) You might want to go in and add little hairs to her face to depending on just how detailed you want to get. I have to agree that there is something off about the nostrils on her I think they are too rounded and that is more of the shape for cartoon characters and not real people. I think real people have a more triangular nostril. Also there are little indentations on the bottom of the nose where the nostrils come to a point. Not to drive you crazy or anything but your model is so perfect that it does take away from it. I did not post ealier because I could tell something was wrong with the nose I just could not figure out what it was.

Nate Nesler

10 October 2004, 08:15 AM
Probably youre right with the shader. I was doing the body textures and I couldn't create something similar to my references, so I've been changing the shader to have more diference between bright parts and dark parts. I still have to test it more but I think I'm going in the right direction. About the nose, is what more people told me, but I really compared to my references lots of times and I never found what was different. Anyway, now I can't change nothing more of the modeling cause all is skinned.

10 October 2004, 10:48 PM
Very nice improvement to the model. The face was looking very odd at the begining of the thread but looks quite good now. The mouth not having enough depth bothers me but overall great work.

10 October 2004, 09:42 PM
Here you have the body and legs textured. I still want to tweak a little more the shader, and looking at this renders I've noticed the neck is too dark in the front, and is abiously bad on the back. I also want to work a bit more the back part of the knees and a few more thigs, but the result will be similar to this. Any comment will be apreciated.

10 October 2004, 06:00 PM
Hey Woody,

Looking really good with the shading and lighting. I think you are defantly on the right track to photo realism. Keep it up. I think you are defantly going to end up on the front page when you finish this. Very top notch. There is only only one thing in the shading that I think still needs work. Her nipples don't seem to have any displacement on them. Women have an indention in their nipples where they extract milk from. Here is a reference image to show what I am talking about.

Nate Nesler

10 October 2004, 10:09 PM
Well, im not really into 3D stuff but in photoshop stuff.
I have to say this is a really amazing work!
The progress shown in the thread is unveliveble...

Keep working and showing us what you done.!

11 November 2004, 12:15 PM
Thanks for the comments. Here's some more progress. For me all the body textures are done, so tell me if you think there's something more to tweak. Well, really there's one more thing I'm gona tweak, cause the texture is a bit stretched under the neck, but appart of that, for me this part is finished.

MatrixNaN -> The link didn't worked, but I know what you're talking about. She really has some bump there, but not too much cause I didn't noticed a big bump there in my references. Anyway, in a closer shot it's more visible.

11 November 2004, 03:24 PM
Hi Woody,

Somthing that's been bugging me a while on this model is where the bottom of her nose meets the top of her upper lip. It's kinda like a mesa or shelf right now. If you compare these two references to your model I think you'll see what I mean:

11 November 2004, 10:42 PM
Hey Woody,

Yeah the link did work earlier but it appears they have taken the site down. So here is another reference but its not as good as the first one I had. The first one was really good.

Anyhow I think you are getting really close to finishing. It looks good. I will be shocked if you don't get front page when you finish. You should submit to some books or what not to get some awards with your work. I think you defantly deserve it.

Nate Nesler

11 November 2004, 10:13 PM
Here's a bit more progress with the clothes. I still have to tweak a bit more the eyes and a few things more, but I will do it when I finish the clothes.

Tocpe -> Youre right, this is what everybody sais that looks strange. I can't change more her mesh, she's fully rigged, but I will know it for my next model.

MatrixNaN -> Aaaaoow... that hurts... :P Thanks for your words, they really grows up my morale. When I finish I will send the images everywhere, books, gallerys... I have nothing to lose.

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