View Full Version : Character: face wip

06 June 2004, 11:02 AM
Next I'll work on hair and expressions. Maybe she's a bit too smooth on the chin now, after I smoothed it too much... I think I need to take a closer look at the teeth-shader as well, not sure what's going on there. She's supposed to be slightly stylized and idealised, not super-photo-real. Any c&c appreciated.

06 June 2004, 12:43 PM
Something about the ear is off....I can't tell what it is exactly, but I think it may need to be a little rounder to fit with her face...or it may be possible that the anti-helix is coming out just a bit too far in the center region. Just my opinion though.

Also, can you post some wires? makes it easier to crit the modeling job.

Nice work so far,


06 June 2004, 12:50 PM
a classic one from you.. what kind of critics do you need ?!.. I love the face shape.. and the lips get already a wonderfull feel to her.. good skin.. maybe the eyelashes are a little bit bungled.. or maybe is just the camera angle that overlaps them a bit... the ears need more work... but you could leave them also as they're.



06 June 2004, 06:26 PM
She reminds me on of my former co-workers. Beautiful, but in a "disturbing" way.

What I did spot is on the side of the head (my right her left) is a darker area which forms almost a triangle shape. The tip of eyebrow points at it.
Some people (especially skinny/old ones) have a depression in this area (because of skull's sphenoid bone if you find a picture of it you will insantly know what I mean) but it is usually more rounded. May be the angle though.
My gf pointed to me that she looks like she used too much and not too good quality eyelash makeup :) (don't know the word in english, mascara?;) ), but I kinda like that effect.
Her lips are perfect!

06 June 2004, 09:40 PM
hi Steven....she is srangely beutiful,but i think that if your are going for a more stylish look i might be tempted to make her eyes larger ...not quite manga styley,but just enough to make her look a bit more styalised........look forward to more updates...smudger

06 June 2004, 03:13 PM
cool stahlberg, as usual. First thing that striked me were the corners of her mouth (some strange curves or something) but I wasn't sure anymore when I took a second look

Also is the hair final? Coz it doesn't look that cute in combination with the red lipstick ;)

06 June 2004, 06:19 PM
yes. the corner is abit too sharp. Especially when the mouth is shaping like O.

Chin is definetly too rounded as you 've mention. Is too long as well. Some ppl do have long chins. But those who must not be beautiful.

06 June 2004, 07:12 PM
Excellent stuff, but I see that the outer corner of her eye has a strange line just at the end, above the eyelashes and out towards the ear. Thats the only thing I reacted to as being off.
Also, the skin specular stands out very clearly, thou not unnaturally.

edited: not bump - specular. doh.

06 June 2004, 04:16 AM
Okay, excellent feedback, thanks! I'll post a wireframe later, it's not the main issue right now, it will be soon when I start in on the expressions. Update:

06 June 2004, 01:43 AM

Great work, you are an insperation to me, and many others as well i am sure. And i would like to say that i am not qualified to Judge this, but here it goes...

As many have said earlier, the top lip of the mouth is a little wierd, I think that this is due to the thikness of the lip at the corners.....they are really wide.

The crease above here eye also seems alittle unatrual, and harsh, perhaps if it followed the upper lid more it would be less noticeable.... not sure abou that one.

Lastly the septum of the nose is buggen me a little, i think that it is a little high, and should be pulled down a little

Now this could all be just drunk talk, ;), as this could be a counsious choice of style.......

but thanks for sharing another insperation..


aka trybul

06 June 2004, 10:55 AM
Thanks! okay here's another update, and a wire

06 June 2004, 11:18 AM
I like your meshes, very light. I learn a lot from you, really inspiring stuff (always was ;) ).

Can't find anything to critique now :).

06 June 2004, 03:23 PM
this update looks alot better.

06 June 2004, 03:57 PM
I think it looks great... the color on the lips is just perfect...

06 June 2004, 08:33 PM
That's a great improvement, Steven.. I dig the second.

two things that striked me:

- the inside of the ear seems quite white, unnatural white actually

- there's something wrong with her lower eyelid. it's a combination of the slightly too light-red color and the straight lines near the inner eye corner. maybe smooth that sharp angle a little.

great work.

06 June 2004, 04:43 AM
Hello Steven,

I always admired your work, but this one is nowhere to your former creations...

Itt looks like that this character has serious anatomical flaws around the lips (too narrow?), and the general form suffers from the lack of subtle details (slightly visible skinfolds, etc)

I`m sorry to say that, but this character isn`t as exceptional as your usual creations used to be.

Thanks your attention,

06 June 2004, 06:37 AM
I disagree. I think this one has more "style" to it than most of your other models. They were the typical cg girl while this one is different. As for the mouth and other features that are "skewed", I know people who look like this. It's sort of the baby face look. Tiny lips, large eyes, not too much detail in the faces. I rather liked the previous lighting though with the extremely reflective eyes. Maybe if you could find a medium between the two.

I was wondering if you could post the eye texture map? I'm interested in seeing other peoples' as I am working on one right now.

06 June 2004, 06:41 AM
she's supposed to be slightly stylized... and I think you over-estimate my previous work. :)
But I can agree she could do with more subtlety, just under the lower eyelids for instance. And the mouth is a bit narrower than normal. Personally I don't find wide mouths pretty, and I'm trying to give her character... another judgement call. Well I'll widen it a little.

06 June 2004, 10:34 PM
cool, I didn't know your none-quad method apply to head modeling too. :) Did you stick those ears on just like that? They blend so well to the head.

Nothing to critique since we all look different, unless you want a certain first impression feed back. She have this strong, determined look (maybe 'cause of thick eyebrows and pointy nose) on her baby face (due to her big eyes and small lips).

I like this style, not hyper realistic but have "Stalhberg" written all over it. She's pretty but not my type. ;) Just curious, will you be using FG render in the future?

06 June 2004, 06:01 PM
in my oppinion the corners of the lips ,the eyelids ,ears and maybe the wing of the nose are not right, but the eyelids now are better than in the first image.

06 June 2004, 07:27 PM

the general head shape is very good (actually that´s how I imagine a usual american girl looks like :) ) She´s got character (that´s what I missed in some of your former creations).
But some things are still bugging me. First of all the inner eye is too sharp. Then there are rendering artifacts on the forehead due to probably non-planar poly areas I would guess. The lower eyelid really looks a bit odd.

Otherwise, really like it.


P.S.: Do some people still believe ideal proportions deliver some character?

06 June 2004, 12:46 AM
oh, Steven, she looks very beatiful.

my suggestion is :
1. high light, i mean the oil of skin, should be a little more bump, coz the high llight depends on the skin bump.
2. the forehead area: i thought the bump value there could be added more, and the texture should be different from the other area,
3.the nose tip bump also needs some more modified.

hope those suggestions could be helpful.


06 June 2004, 02:37 AM
I think it would be worth it to look over the tear ducts again. They seem a bit too deep/large/long.

06 June 2004, 04:55 PM
I always admire and study your work on this one I think that like

said before that the tear duct is a bit to sharp and also under the

nose looks a little wide and does not taper as it should but maybe its

just the other thing that I noticed was the ear lobe seams

a bit small but this is probley just a personal preference.
And If you can stand one more complment your body topology has really
helped me alot on understanding what I can get away with and what
I can't.

06 June 2004, 07:36 PM
@stahlberg: ...when modeling/rendering...what focal length are you working with ?

06 June 2004, 12:30 AM
She is beautiful,
great work :bowdown: :bowdown::bowdown:,
but her eyes it seems ot be plane (not sphere).

(sorry my english is poor)

06 June 2004, 07:29 AM
Finally managed to come back to this face. Thanks for responses, I'll take another look at the inside eye-corner and some other things. Someone asked about FG; this is all rendered with it. I use an angle of view between 20-30 usually for things like this.

This is the Smile morf target. (Tiny bit of blur added in PS.)

06 June 2004, 10:13 AM
haha that has to be one of the cleanest ladies ive seen in a while... check her chin its like shiny smooth, compare it to her cheek bones it makes the skin look discolored kind of. Dont know why im even saying these things... i can barely model a car and your here modeling a face that i couldnt pull off without tuts. Thx for the wireframe it helps a lot of us.

06 June 2004, 10:44 AM

This is very honest smile :)
I am sure that you have already spotted problem with mouth corners.
Also there is some strange blink on her tooth just near the gum (left next to big one in the middle, I don't know english names for teeth). Looks like dot dentist fill for me.
Her nostrils a bit too stretched maybe.. but it could be good thing for animation.

Eyes give great feel of expression!

06 June 2004, 11:38 AM

It`s much much better!

06 June 2004, 10:13 AM
A new update, now also with blendshapes for all 4 eye-rotations. The spots on the teeth: the lower spots are caused by bouncing light in FG, I already have Irradiation and Irratiation Color at zero, does someone know how to reduce this effect? The upper spot is just a highlight. :)

06 June 2004, 02:51 PM
The smile+tooth gives it much more life.

Apart from the small pinching around the corner of the mouth it looks really neat.

06 June 2004, 06:21 PM
what are Irradiation and Irratiation Color ? do you mean the reflective colour by FG?

06 June 2004, 07:20 PM
One thing that strikes me when i first see this face is the mouth corners. It must be a fetich i have about mouth corners i don't know... Because in 90% of the cases i see, i just think they need more tweaking.
Anyway... As a humble opinion from a character modeler, (on the default face) I think you should consider pushing the mouth corners back a little, and give a better definition of the cheeks, where they end between the mouth corner and the nose base, sorry I'm talking simple here, my english terminology knowledge is not very broad.
Keep it up!

06 June 2004, 07:22 PM
...The spots on the teeth: the lower spots are caused by bouncing light in FG, I already have Irradiation and Irratiation Color at zero, does someone know how to reduce this effect? The upper spot is just a highlight. :)
Can't help you there. But it did make me realize that the inside of the mouth looks pretty dry. How about adding some shine to the gums and inside of the mouth to make it look wetter?

06 June 2004, 08:04 PM
The spots on the teeth: the lower spots are caused by bouncing light in FG, I already have Irradiation and Irratiation Color at zero, does someone know how to reduce this effect? The upper spot is just a highlight. :)

..try lowering the Diffuse Value...

06 June 2004, 11:47 PM
Hi Steven!

This is the point I'd stop and animate her! Spots on teeths can be removed in post. I think in animation no one will spot (ermm) them. For stills, I'd just phtotoshop them away.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
PS. I know it's beyond critique, but did you try to give her some freckles? :)

06 June 2004, 08:14 PM
i don't know about maya. But in Soft. i just have to tone down the radius of the direct illumination from prevanting things glowing.

07 July 2004, 05:32 PM
Hei Stahlberg you will try to make hair in this model? (not a Texture)
and I have a question for you, you use maya righ, I want to now how do you make the hair in your models look to cool, you use paint effects?

07 July 2004, 01:43 AM
you've probably already fixed this but the teeth look somewhat planar and I think the mouth corners look good on the outside but pulling the inside corners out and up would help (very hard to describe with words) also the upper lip is fatter than the lower. oh and the distance between the nose and upper lip is very small.

Youre a much better modeler than me but those are my thoughts..

Looks great!

07 July 2004, 11:06 AM
very good progress!

I so prefer the current color of her lips over the first version!
Really adds to her natural look.

but as mkt pointed out, the upper lip is too close to the nose. Also the chin appears to be too long, as does the nose. So I would sort of even that out; push the mouth down a tad, shorten the nose a bit and that should fix it. That might also fix the currently strange appearance of the mouth creases and push their starting point closer to the eyes.

The bridge of the nose is a little wide compared to teh back of the nose, and the eyes might be a little too far apart. With slightly bigger eyes and a less sharp corner where the tearduct is you could come even closer to a "überoptimaler Auslöser"

I realize you don't use a kicklight here, but the ears could need some stronger translucency fake anyway. Also they usually are of a redder tint than the face. Right now they're looking very dry and solid.(fighting with shading the ears myself here:

Excuse my nitpicking; it's a good one already, but has the potential to become perfect :thumbsup:

07 July 2004, 11:52 AM
had a quick go at her in Photoshop; this is the direction I was thinking:
(hope you don't mind)

07 July 2004, 08:04 AM
bandage on left index hampers typing, so keepin this short

agree about eyes too far apart, also maybe too big

Don't agree about distance between nose and mouth, sorry :) smiling raises the lip a lot, especially in some people, and I like this but relaxed face has more distance of course
working on other expressions now, and reflections in eyes, and a luminance/saturation node to lower sat of skin in low light
your goblins skin is really great, please tell more about shader if you like

07 July 2004, 09:13 AM
yep, the mouth thing; I kept an open eye at women smiling (got me some strange looks in the supermarket...) and there's actually people who will not only expose their teeth but also the gums (the woman behind the counter of our pharmacy for instance :eek:) That might also be the reason my photoshopped version suffers from the Mona Lisa syndrom a bit :D

Sorry to hear about your arm! I broke my right (!) arm in a motorcycle accident 7 weeks ago and it took me a full week to be able to operate the mouse almost painlessly again. (using a Wacom with a cast on your arm also is a strange experience). So I really hope your arm gets better soon.

07 July 2004, 07:30 AM
Youre my idol but I need to comment on this face.

I dont mean to be rude but it looks like shes had to many botox injections.

Her face seems to look like it being pulled really tightly from behind the head, possibly because of also having the hair scrapted back emphasis' this.

A more casual/hanging hair style might make her appear more relaxed and natural.

The eyes seem to be to slanted up like shes had plastic surgury, almost reminds me of the "cat women" possibly de slant them a bit, and round the tear duct as said before.

07 July 2004, 09:14 AM
dear mr. stahlberg :)

love her eyes. it's the best part of this rendering. the part i dont like is her mouth... lips (too dry) and teeth (too... flat?) that's only my opinion.

are you going to do some "3d" hair? or just leave the texture?


07 July 2004, 07:20 AM
Thanks! I agree about the inner eye corners. I don't think the modeling of the teeth is too flat, but rather something wrong with the shading in that case. I'll try to give her better hair later.

Here's the Anger, Gape and Sneer blendshape together (all near max).

07 July 2004, 04:38 PM
Cool folds, but way too much between the eyebrows.

07 July 2004, 07:58 PM
yap, i think the teeth in this update looks fine. So probably was the shades.

The anger face look strange. The mouth maybe too small. The folds are too much which makes the bridge of the nose become flat.

07 July 2004, 09:30 PM
Three shapes at once, maxed?!?,very nice! I agree with Xaint about the area between the brows, but that is 3 shapes at once after all. I noticed that you had some trans/SSS fake in the ear. Are you using the method Jason O was trying to work out (in the rendering forum i think) some time ago? Is the redish area just painted very carefully?

07 July 2004, 02:23 AM
Thanks. Oh, I forgot to mention, there's 20% of the Smile target in there too. And, I'm not sure, but I think the Gape is a little bit past what is normal extreme... I've tried the Blinks and eye-rotation targets with this too, it all works fine together at maximum. (I've never really had problems with combinations, except when combining incompatible targets, like Pout and Smile.)

The ear thing is a painted ambient map that I plan to drive with a luminance node, in this image it's still too strong of course. There's no FG in this test.

edit: not sure what's going on with the inner lower teeth, they seem transparent or something, have to render a closeup... when I've time.

07 July 2004, 05:10 AM
Well, my knowledge of blenshapes is limited, need to research that area some more. My experience has been that they were additive, so multiple targets ( similar shapes, affecting same verts ) at maximum would give bad results. Am I missing something here? I probably just need to have more sensitivity and care when creating them I guess?

I was able to get decent results for ears using a translusency map to drive the ambient color in a layered shader, but it was always ambient on the dark side. Never did figure out how to get a light info node to do what I wanted. I'm assuming the light info node is the way to do this? Anywho, good luck with this.

I like the teeth shader. The only thing I notice is that the lower teeth seem to be missing the spec/reflection that the top have. It just seems like the edge would have some "bling" to it.

Kudos. She's looking sweet!

07 July 2004, 09:55 AM
Well I've never done a character like Gollum, but I've done closeup lipsync with characters similar to this girl, even splitting targets down the centerline, and I've never had a problem with additive shapes. As you say, you have to be careful, both while modeling the targets (choose correct targets, and ONLY move the relevant points), and while animating (no max "Eeh" with a max "Ooh" etc).

In this one the Anger target only moves the brows and the top of the nosebridge. The Sneer only moves the upper lip, nose and lower lids. and so on Two bumpmaps are also involved.

The ears, I'm going to try a Surface Luminance node hooked up to a small invisible surface behind the ear, so that whenever light hits it the ambient channel rises from black.

07 July 2004, 08:05 PM
that looks sweet Stahlberg! I agree with the wrinkels in that last shot, little over done. Looks good dude. Is there a chance that you can post a wireframe of that pose? I was actually wondering if your mesh has changed a bit since your first post. Great job!

dynamic duotone
07 July 2004, 08:48 PM
Hey Steven,

Looking nice! Could you give me some pointers on what you used to shade the teeth with, Blinn, Phong??? They look really good, and they don't have nasty Jar Jar Binks shadows.

I tried using a DGS Mental Ray Shader for them, but they just end up looking like white car paint. Not really what I was going for.

Any advice?


07 July 2004, 09:58 PM
..Here's the Anger, Gape and Sneer blendshape together Just give it a short name and call it "Disgust" :)

07 July 2004, 04:52 AM
Disgust, yeah! I should add the head move - recoiling back, slightly turned away. "Eew! Put that thing away!" :)

The teeth - yes, almost as hard as skin... in some cases harder. Grr.
I basically used my skin-shader, with some tweaks for the color. And there's a reflection map and PhongE highlight, that's on a second surface modelled to cover the front 4 - 6 teeth like a film of fluid, using the same shader as the cornea. (not on the lower teeth, that's why that comment about them lacking highlights, maybe I should add that)

07 July 2004, 02:37 AM
I think your women are superb. I think that "disgust" expression looks really great except for the part where the nose meets the brow. It looks much too crumpled--not supple as it should look. I must tell you though, your work overall is very inspiring. Keep it coming! :bounce:

07 July 2004, 10:22 PM
man your skin shader is totally awesome

too many wrinkles between the eyes a bit over exxagerated unless she is like sixty years old which i doubt she is

07 July 2004, 11:44 PM
I think that the wrinkles are absolutely perfect. I mean you don't want the character emotion to be wooden ie: FFTSW. I think that the over emphasis will work very well from an animation standpoint as I believe that over-emphasis is far more believable than under-emphasis. I love the wrinkles, great work as always.

07 July 2004, 08:57 AM
Here's another test, different light (ibl), and I added a colormap adjusted with red and white parts to simulate extreme anger. I did mute the tiger-like wrinkles on the nose a tiny bit after this. The bottom half of the face is lacking in emotion now, because I don't yet have targets such as lips curling in towards teeth etc. I think this needs a bump map for tensing of the platysma too.

07 July 2004, 12:26 PM
The cheeks look like they are too relaxed right now. The only muscles invovled seem to be the nose and forehead.

For extreme anger you can go several different ways, but here are a couple.


The cheek muscles should be tensed, not only raising the upper lip, but pulling it wider, and tighter angainst the teeth and skull in a snarl.


Drop the lower jaw and open the mouth wide as if in roaring or screaming in anger.

07 July 2004, 12:33 PM
Damn she looks like one angry women, im starting to like this peice.

Call her Shazza.

Its quite an interesting expression you've created, almost one of anger but she also looks confused with anger, almost like she's not to intelligent and when she gets confused and dosn't understand something she ends up getting angry and pulling terrible facials. She's drunk at a bar and been asked out by a man, and well yeah, she's not to impressed and procedes to chuck her drink in their face.

My concerns are for the lower part of the face, you say the blends arent't completed, but the treatment of the texturing isnt even throughout the face, she looks much older round the eyes, from the personality of the pic its looks like she screws here face up a lot and thus there would be more wrinkles around the mouth area aswell, plus the lips are to smooth.

The forehead almost looks sunburnt, its a fine line to simulate the red blood in the face, I would continue this treatment through the mouth area, if you were wanting to be real flash cetain areas go lighter, like when you tensen your fist and certain areas go white from lack of blood, like the lips.

07 July 2004, 02:14 PM
Looks great the only thing I would say is that the nostrals need to

flare out.

07 July 2004, 03:07 PM
Stan none of your links work?
The bottom half of the face isn't bumped and reddened much because I want to tie the texture changes (bumps at least) to their respective target slider. So, when the Anger target is 0.5 the Anger bump map is at half strength, same for the Sneer map etc. So, once I finish targets for the lips it will be better.
And about whiteness from tensing, certain areas do go lighter now, if you look closely. :)

edit: oh and to be animatable, nostril-flaring needs to be a separate target, which I haven't gotten around to yet.

07 July 2004, 03:37 PM
Stan none of your links work?Strange. They work for me and I've looked at them from home and from work.

They are on my personal web server, but I got them all from the GettyImages Creative Search page:

You can go there and do a search on "face anger" or try following this link:

Click on thumbnails to enlarge (can enlarge twice). It's a decent place for reference images and GettyImages has a ton of search options to help refine your search.

07 July 2004, 04:01 PM
Coo! The ear trans turned out nice. Is that using the surface luminance node? Does that act correctly in the scene, or does it need to be keyed/ tweaked per shot etc.? Oh, and the brow area looks much better too! cheers

07 July 2004, 04:12 PM
Are there really that much wrinkles around the nose when you're that angy? On the peace between the eyes there is, but on the side of the nose your skin is much thicker so there won't be that much wrinkles if I'm not mistaken.

None the less it remains a super image! I sure as hell can't model that way!

The overall feel of the image is great! She's one mean lady! Quiet waters run deep they say.

Keep going!


07 July 2004, 12:49 AM
Well, now the links work suddenly. Thanks. :)
I did follow a reference of a girl from a magazine ad, she had these wrinkles... but maybe not as visible, as I can't make the skin to be as translucent as in reality, so instead I suppose I just have to reduce them in strength.

07 July 2004, 02:02 AM
Okay, IMHO the lines on her cheeks look like scars now. Also, her brow looks like it has burns on it.
Her skin looks more plastic and less supple than before. Sorry, man.

07 July 2004, 11:11 AM
An update. This one has 4 morftargets almost at maximum on the lips/mouth area. Bumpmap for chin added. I replaced the 'angry'color on the face with the neutral one again. Think I will reduce the wrinkle under the eye (a lot).

07 July 2004, 11:39 AM
Great stuff - i feel somewhat cheeky for criticising the mighty stahlbergs work, but her lips are too smooth - her upper lip is too thick and curved in my opinion. This style seems to be apparrent on a lot of your faces - sometimes it suits it, other times it looks a bit wierd.
Great work on the wrinkles though. Apart from the overly sharp creases running parralel to the bridge of the nose, id say youve nailed it!
Keep up the good work.

07 July 2004, 01:28 PM
All I can think of when I see the last one is that character from the tv show "In Living Color"...."I'm gonna rock your world!" :p lol j/k

Seriouslythough, Steven how are you getting the translucency/sss look with the ears with the IBL? I've been messing with that but I'm getting kinda funky results. Are you controlling it with a transparency or translucency map?

07 July 2004, 02:14 AM
Hi Stahlberg, I dont know if you're going for just an anger pose here, but IMO you're going ballistic with the wrinkles, it kind of starts looking inhuman, I think, more like a tigersnarl. I'm putting up this pic, that to me looks more like a natural anger pose.

07 July 2004, 02:35 AM
The burn marks are gone; which is good. Somehow, she looks too pale now. Her face looks washed out. The wrinkles still don't look like young healthy skin reacting to muscle contractions and stuff. The lines under the eyes still look like scares. Too straight, and too even I think. I don't think the lines running down the nose or next to the inner left eye look natural. Still better than I could do.

07 July 2004, 02:51 PM
quite impressive. but as to the wrinkles, i am not sure whether you want to make it realistic or just add it for fun. it definitely need some further works on:).

how do you make your eyelash?? i saw one tutorial on the alias community, which is by copying curves on the surface and "grow"some eyelash on the curve, but i don't think that method would work on subidivision or polygon surfaces, right??

07 July 2004, 07:28 AM
I never liked the idea of growing them from the lids. The roots of real lashes are scattered with quite a lot of randomness within a narrow area, not all in one line, reguarly spaced.
I build them and place them by hand, laborious yes but gives me more control. Some of them are sprites, some are tubes.

07 July 2004, 06:48 AM
Very nice model as usual, but indeed the wrinkles strike me as being "off" and I'm trying to make out why.

I think it's not only a queston of being overdone, but that, as someone said here they look more like scars than skin folds. I'd guess it's a problem of the skin being flat between wrinkles, whereas it should bulge (compression would lead to a serie of more or less parallel bulges and folds), as well as the folds being very sharp and thin. Would be a problem of finding the good fold width to bulge width ratio, and a more "rounded" profile on the bulges.

Like the difference between these profiles :

I couldn't draw a 2D bump map to save my life, and feel much more at ease with modeling, this I found ZBrush very practical for bump / displace painting cause you can see what you're doing and it's effect on Mesh directly. The brushes and tools are great too for that task (bulge, pinch etc.). Then you can use the generated map either as displacement or bump depending on your renderer capacity, for a single face I think Maya's renderer could accomodate some displacement even though it would be a memory hog.

Effect on chin is great though, the "orange skin" resulting from tension :)

These refs are great btw :), great link and thanks for you sharing it Slaughter!

Some ref i find personnally interesting, the "anger" component isn't in it, but it's the "sneer / disgust" part, the diamond shaped wrinkles on the nose (pyramidal msucle region) is quite characteristic

07 July 2004, 08:06 PM
i agree whith danisud,this wrinkles are a bit unreal, some are too much down and too much deep
and some are far of the nose.

07 July 2004, 08:13 PM
yap, I am fully agree with danisud's critique. the muscles around the nose should bend like that.

07 July 2004, 10:02 PM
Although I agree with drone about the shape and Zbrush - keep in mind these are extreme poses so I don't think they are overdone at all - a character should ideally be setup way beyond its practical application.

07 July 2004, 07:01 AM
I think Drone is right. It's VEry tricky to airbrush bump maps, even harder than 'normal' airbrushing (which isn't easy). :) I really should try Zbrush for this. But I'm almost done, I don't plan to have any more bumps.
Right now I'm busy with more skin shading R&D anyway, update coming soon.

08 August 2004, 03:39 AM
Excellent model. Maybe lower cheekbones or reconsider the color of the eyes. The facial structure suggests an occidental genetic makeup.

Also, increase the individual hair contrast in the eyebrows. They look furry.

The angry face made me giggle at first since I didn't expect it. Looks good. Close the lower lip a little since people usually bring their lower lip to the upper teeth when angry.

08 August 2004, 08:44 AM
I think Drone is right. It's VEry tricky to airbrush bump maps, even harder than 'normal' airbrushing (which isn't easy). :) I really should try Zbrush for this. But I'm almost done, I don't plan to have any more bumps.
Right now I'm busy with more skin shading R&D anyway, update coming soon.
what I do to get nice round creases in bump maps is to paint the crease very dark, duplicate the layer 2 times and apply different levels of blur to each of them, adjust the layer's opacities and once it seems to look right Ctrl-E them... This seems to take the edge off a bit.

...but that was before ZBrush :D

awaiting your update impatiently :bounce:

08 August 2004, 04:25 PM
When people snarl like that, their lips curl in a little bit. The shape remains mostly flat, but the lip itself (red part) tucks inward. It is to protect the sensitive skin on the lips during a fight.


08 August 2004, 09:04 AM
nah, only in fight or if they're really expecting an immediate blow or something... Then there's the pre-fight taunting and scaring: in this case the teeth are bared just like Steven is doing.

08 August 2004, 07:22 AM
An update, not tried rolling the lips yet, working on the skin and teeth shader mostly. This is using bigMuh's Diffusion shader, and the Dirtmap on the teeth. Still not there, but I thought it was too long since I posted the progress... :)

08 August 2004, 04:07 PM
have you update anything on the modeling?

08 August 2004, 05:16 PM
No, why? :)

Sashela, I'm not sure what you mean, the occident I thought was the opposite of the orient... so then she has a Western facial structure, so I should lower the cheekbones...? Or did you mean she has an oriental facial structure?

I do think the lower lashes are too dark and too low, and should reach further to the inner side. There's also a problem with those bumped wrinkles, seems to be a bug in mr, I have to do more research.

08 August 2004, 06:33 PM
One strange thing I noticed about the latest render is that there seems to be some heavy SSS going on with the ear, but none on the nose where I would expect a little on the tip of it and a little on the fleshy part of the nostrils as well.

08 August 2004, 01:31 AM
i would think that the eyes would be a little squintier and angrier, but that's just a personal preference hehe, it just seems that the eyebrows and wrinkles are about right but the actual eyes might need to be more emotional

08 August 2004, 09:34 AM
I tweaked the Diffusion again, in both the teeth and skin.

08 August 2004, 11:33 AM
I really enjoy th modellisation, the expression, but I have always the same feeling when I look at your pictures : it's always too clean, always to smooth. For example, the skin is always 100 pure, no imperfections. It would be nice to see something just a tad more trashy. :)

08 August 2004, 02:09 PM
I'm aware of the relative 'cleanness' of the skin... one problem is that any amount of bump on the base Lambert shader will not be affected by the nice Diffusion shader, and will look opaque or non-sss. There seems to be no way to get bumps on the Diffusion. So I only put temporary bumps, like anger-wrinkles etc, on the base (which already is a stretch, so I have to be careful not to overdo it). The actual pores and permanent unevenness go only in the spec layers, which helps the illusion of translucency.
I've tried everything; but small bumps on the base Lambert always makes it look like concrete.

The only other option for the Lambert is the color map; but if that's too rough she looks diseased. Or too close to real, like the Final Fantasy crew... I'd like to find some level of stylization that isn't exactly real, but still looks cool. Haven't found it yet I guess.

dynamic duotone
08 August 2004, 02:15 PM
Hi Steve,

Awesome expression, it's getting really really close...
You may want to work on how the bottom lip stetches up against the bottom teeth, you would actually see less of the bottom teeth than you currently have. The skin would be more stretched above the chin region also. Shadows in between teeth look a little dark, teeth tend to bounce light around inside, giving them a slight glow. Very cool though, I'm jealous.

That skin is looking incredible! It looks like you've gotten the ears just about perfect. Would you mind posting a screen shot of the attribute editor for your diffusion node settings of your skin?


dynamic duotone
08 August 2004, 02:33 PM
Actually we found something that might help that this morning...

We found that adding your color map into the Surface Shader slot found at the bottom of the diffusion shader attributes in the Irradience section adds definition and life to the bump maps. It takes a little longer to render, but you might be impressed with the results.

It says in the "user manual" for the diffusion shader the rule of thumb is that the Indirect Scattering should be higher (number wise) than both the Direct Scattering and the Surface Shader Amount attributes added together.

Ex. Indirect Scattering set to 1.0
Direct Scattering set to .4
Surface Shader Amount set to .3

Good Luck,

08 August 2004, 06:51 PM
I am wondering is it able if you can add a map for different area have different value of scattering. What i am saying is that the area like ear should have more scattering because it has no real bones in it. But the area of the forehead, the cheak, etc have real solid bones just right behind the thin skin. It should not have as much as scattering. And I m also wondering how the skin that has alot of fat underneeth will behave on the scattering value.

08 August 2004, 11:41 AM
I'm aware of the relative 'cleanness' of the skin... I'd like to find some level of stylization that isn't exactly real, but still looks cool. Haven't found it yet I guess.Steven,

I've allways seen your models as virtual actresses and models. You don't see pores, zits, and freckles on real actors, so why would it be on a virtual actress! Don't get too photo-human-realistic or you'll fall into the "Uncanny Valley" and your virtual actress will look like the un-dead.

P.S. I expect that just adding freckles, and whatever to the skins texture map will be good enough if you want to go that route.

08 August 2004, 03:01 PM
YO you have a problem with the deformation of the nose Take a look at your face in the mirror and the eyes don't looks real there is something shoking me in it

08 August 2004, 11:13 AM
Hey Steven

I've been keeping an eye on your progress with this thread, but havn't posted until now.

In your last render posted, there were two critiques that i would like to make:

(i took the liberty to scrawl all over your lovely render) ==>

The eyes are always an important part of the face for communicating emotions, and for me at the moment, they do not say _ANGRY_. I think there are a few aspect you might want to consider:

1: The eyelashes stop abruptly closer to the nose side of the lid. I realise you aren't going for TOTAL photo realism, but from the angle you have rendered, this is really distracting.

2: you may want to give the lower eye lid some form. The differentiation between the lower lid and upper cheek is just not there, and i know that when i get angry (i checked in the mirror today just for fun) my lower lid tends to be more defined. I know i may not be as 'perfect' as your character, but her eyes look way plastic at the mo in comparison to her other features.

Hope this helps & Good luck with your progress.

08 August 2004, 03:10 AM
Good points, thanks. Here's a new test, I've gone back to a neutral expression for tweaking the skin shader, trying a different ibl and added some (really slow rendering) hair. There's something funky with the lower eyelid/inner eyecorner here, not sure how to fix it without messing with the neutral position, or covering up too much of the eye... :) Sharpened it in PS.

edit: I added a couple maps now in the Diffusion shader, but they're very subtle so far.
I'll show you all the settings once I'm done and happy with them myself.
Dynamic_duotone, check out the Maya Rendering forum for a thread I started asking a question about bumps with Diffusion, Pixero answered with a great network for that. :)

08 August 2004, 03:50 AM
seems awfully shiny? perhaps it's because of my crappy comp settings tho...

and i'm not sure if you lined the lips but the color seems quite off for the edges around the lips, of course that's just a personal opinion tho

08 August 2004, 04:07 AM
Hey steve

Looking cool, i like her new hair do!

Yet again i took the liberty to do a bit of airbrushing to your character's face. Just that inner eyelid was annoying me.
Compare my version==>

I'm not sure what it is called, but that tiny flap of skin that sits flush with the eyeball, by the tear duct was just too prominent. Also that tear duct area was too high and triangular, whereas in my opinion it should be a bit lower and rounded.

Nice progress anyhoo

08 August 2004, 05:41 AM

It`s great. I wish, if I were looking at a whole body version. It looks like she`s after a heavy action :)

Cool. Maybe the image is too crisp?

08 August 2004, 05:42 AM
Lookin good.
She kinda reminds me of jorja fox from CSI and early eps of ER - especially her mouth.

Incase you dont know who this is:

08 August 2004, 07:32 AM

About the eyelids, I've been looking at them trying to pin out what disturbed me, and I think one thing is they're too thick. If you look et the border, where eyelashes grow from, I'd say they're about 1.5 or 2 times too thick ? (More visible on the previous render though).

And about ZBrush for doing your wrinkle maps etc. I think you really should give it a try. Or full modeling team went on it though it may look somewhat "alien" at first sight (latest interface is much better though), it didn't take them long to begin producing great models (with quite tight schedules toos). Given your experience both in modeling and 2D, I'd say it wouldn't take you more than 1 week to get great results using it to make your dispalcement / bump maps.

08 August 2004, 09:32 AM
Skin bumps are too strong. Although it may be that the shine in the skin is exagerating the effect.

It almost looks like you applied a photoshop noise filter to the image. In fact the bumps make the edge of the ear appear as if it was rendered with anti-alias turned off.

08 August 2004, 11:29 PM
Here is my shader flow in messiah:studio.
I took the red out but I'll probably put it back.
Faint blue specular light

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