View Full Version : Game Art Competition #6 Submissions

04 April 2004, 09:39 AM
Gameart Competition #6 Submissions
Submissions only.

Deadline is April 18th so make sure you enter in time!

**Only Judges will post their comments along with their scores, At the end of this thread starting Monday. If you are not a judge, but want to comment. Please post in their WIP thread.**

You're NOT allowed to post more than 5 pictures per post and one post per user. I recommend you to compile what you can into big collages (any collage can be at a higher resolution than 800x600).

Please make single pose images no larger than 800x600, and collages no larger than 1024x768.

Post the following info along with your entry:

Actor’s real name
The name of the character that they are playing
The movie that they are from.
Polycount (triangles, not quads)
Texture resolution(s)
Number of maps used

1) Actual Photo of the Actor in costume from the movie. Make sure it’s a good photo, showing a good portion of the actor’s body (if not all of their body) to allow us to judge the likeness of the model. The better photo you find, the easier it is for us to judge, especially if the character is from a movie that we have not seen.

2) 3 Orthographic views of the model with wireframes, and WITHOUT the texture (just throw on any gray material/shader). A screenshot from any 3 of the following views will work front/back/side/perspective. They should be compiled in to one image(like a collage), this image can be at a higher resolution than 800x600 but not larger than 1024x768.
NOTE: Make sure you hide anything in the scene that might obscure the view of your model. And make sure that only the default viewport light is lighting the scene. No fancy pants colored lights!

3) 1 Perspective shot of your smooth shaded model with textures applied or a collage of different angles/poses/close-ups.
800x600 for 1 perspective shot or 1024x768 for a collage
NOTE: Once again, no fancy pants lighting yet. Just the standard viewport light.

4) Show us the texture(s) for the character.
Please only post the diffuse(color) map(s) as an image. Post Links to the alpha/bump/normal/spec/ maps. This will save space in the thread.
Keeping in mind that the max limit for the diffuse was E 512x512 & 1 256x256”…
Please combine those 2 into 1 512x768 image. If you want you can put 1 of the alpha, bump, normal or spec maps into the left over 256x256 hole on that image, or just leave it black.

5) Beauty Render. Show us what you've got and make it as pretty as you can. Posing, fancy lights, background, etc, etc.

Each judge will award points to the top 3 entries they like the most.
3 points for 1st
2 points for 2nd
1 point for 3rd

Judging will be based on the following:

Likeness/believability EDoes the model look like the actor from the movie.

Polygon density/topology - How well are the polies used? Are certain areas higher/lower poly than others?

UVW Mapping - Good use of texture space? And is the texture resolution justified? Any strange stretching/warping visible on the model?

Texturing - How much of the work does the texture do? Is it painted well?

Appeal - How does the end result look? Was it executed well? Both technically and aesthetically.

If any of the judges want to add more comments, feel free.

Judges are:

Judging will take place between Monday April 19th and Friday April 23rd with the winner announced that weekend. I know everyone is very busy, so we all have 1 week to judge the entries.

PM me If I missed anything

Good luck!

** Borrowed some text from the previous submission thread, specifically CgMonkey who also borrowed text from SouL **

Mod please sticky

04 April 2004, 03:15 PM
Actor - R Lee Ermey
Character - Gunnery Sergeant Hartman
Film - Full Metal Jacket (stanley Kubrick - 1987)
Poly Count - 4428 Triangles

1x 512 Colour map
1x 256 Colour map
1x 512 Bump map

Photo reference:




Beauty Render:

04 April 2004, 05:40 PM
Actor - Tom Hanks
Character - Forrest Gump
Film - Forrest Gump (Robert Zemeckis - 1994)
Poly Count - 3930 Triangles

1x 512 Colour map
1x 256 Colour map

Photo Reference:
Photo Reference (




Beauty Render:


04 April 2004, 06:01 AM
Actor - Keanu Reeves
Character - Ted "Theodore" Logan
Film - Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey
Polycount - 4496

1x 512 Color map
1x 256 Color map
1x 256 Alpha map



Harware Shaded:


Fancy Shmancy Picture:

WIP Thread:
I Got Your Work in Progress RIGHT HERE! (

04 April 2004, 06:07 AM
Actor - Denzel Washington
Character - Detective Alonzo Harris
Film - Training Day
Poly Count - 3206 TRIS

1x 512 Diffuse Map
1x 256 Diffuse Map
1x 512 Bump Map
1x 256 Bump Map
1x 512 Spec Map
1x 256 Spec Map

Reference (

Wire (

Shaded View (


Final Renders

04 April 2004, 06:15 AM
Actor - Lawrence Fishbourne
Character - Morpheus
Films -The Matrix series (Wachowski brothers 1999, 2003, 2003.)
Poly Count - 3847 Triangles

1x 512 Color map
1x 256 Color map

Photo Reference:
Reference (


04 April 2004, 10:41 AM
Actor - Rene Groothof
Character - De hollander (The Dutchman)
Film - De vliegende hollander (The Flying Dutchman)
Poly Count - 3183 Triangles

1x 512x512 Color map
1x 512x512 Aplha map
1x 256x256 Color map

Photo Reference:
reference pictures (


Smoothed and shaded


Beauty Render:

04 April 2004, 01:27 PM
Actor - Gerard Depardieu
Character - Obelix
Film - Asterix & Obelix, Mission Cleopatra
Poly Count - 3390

1x 512x512 Color map
1x 512x512 Bump map
1x 512x512 Shininess map
1x 512x512 Alpha map
1x 256x256 Color map
1x 256x256 Bump map
1x 256x256 Shininess map

Photo Reference:
Colaz Photo (


Smooth and shaded:


Render with lights and shadow map

04 April 2004, 01:48 PM
Actor - Kyle MacLachlan
Character - Paul Muad'Dib
Film - Dune (1984)
Poly Count - 3273

1x 512x512 Color map
1x 256x256 Color map

--- refs here --- (

04 April 2004, 09:47 PM
Daniel Day Lewis
William "Bill the Butcher" Cutting
Gangs of New York

3656 Triangles
1x 512² diffuse map for the body
1x 256² diffuse map for the head
1x 256² alpha map for the head

1) Actual Photo of the Actor in costume from the movie. (

2) 3 Orthographic views of the model with wireframes.

3) 1 collage of different angles/poses/close-ups using standard viewport lighting.

4) Textures

5) Beauty render

04 April 2004, 11:02 PM
Nathen Filion
Malcom Reynolds
Firefly serenity

3078 Triangles
1x512 diffuse map body
1x256 difuse map for head
1x512 normal map body
1x256 normal map for head

photo of actor(should work now)

my stuff

04 April 2004, 05:25 AM
Ichi the Killer
3537 tris

3 maps (alpha, face diffuse, and body diffuse)
This is a rushed finish. I'd still like to go back and add some more facial variations (just a little) and add more wrinkles to the clothes, and fix the hair alphas a little more. I'm sure a beauty pose with the needles would help a lot, but oh well i have no time to rig him.
I will just post the totally finished piece in my current thread, so just check back there next week or so. But if there is something else you'd like to see, that i didn't mention, lemme know.

04 April 2004, 06:14 AM
Johnny Depp
Raoul Duke
Fear and Loathing
4,372 Triangles
1 512 x 512 Diffuse w/ Alpha
1 256 x 256 Diffuse w/ Alpha

Reference Images (


Self Illuminated

Diffuse Maps
Alpha Maps (

Spot Lit

04 April 2004, 08:25 AM
Ok, looks like a few of you made it to the finish line. Congratulations!

Now I´ll try do some judging, and it won´t be easy. All entries look really good.

In 3rd place (1 point)

Johnny Depp
Raoul Duke
Fear and Loathing

Maybe your model isn´t the most accurate, but you´ve managed to capture the characteristics of the character throughout the whole body.
Your textures look really smooth and works well with the shading. You´ve made good use of the polys, and the mesh seems to allow for good deformation.
Your use of the UV-space could have been improved. Its far from consistant and it looks like you´ve given priority to the wrong parts. Like his hands could have been much smaller while his shirt should have been alot bigger.
Overall it´s a very nice model, and I like it very much!

In 2nd place (2 points)

Denzel Washington
Detective Alonzo Harris
Training Day

This is a very professional looking model! With great resemblance and a very clean mesh structure. What really makes it stand out is the excellent face-texture.
You´ve done a great job on the textures overall. It´s a real challenge to make such dark textures interesting. But you´ve managed to capture the chracteristics of the different materials.
There´s a nasty texture seem on his shirt that really catches my eye. But that´s a easy fix. On the whole its a great model!

In 1st place (3 points)

Andy H
R Lee Ermey
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman
Full Metal Jacket

Congratulations you get my 3 points! Excellent work here. It seems to me you´ve really put an effort in to it. What strikes me is that your character almost looks alive. There´s such a presence and sense of weight and volume. The likeness is excellent.
You´ve made very good use of both polys and UV-space. And you´ve proven that both body and face allows for good deformation. There´s not much to say because there´s hardly anything to pick on. I think the weakest point is his shoes, but it´s not a big issue. The facial expressions are great.
You´re a worthy winner, atleast if I get to choose :applause:

Well, that´s all I had to say. Great job everyone (even you who didn´t make it in time for the deadline) Now I´m looking forward to the final results, and then the next competition :)

04 April 2004, 08:03 PM
My 3rd place goes to itskev with Nathan Filion.
It was hard choosing between this and davids rene groothof model. I liked that david hand painted all of his, and the model was topnotch, but the textures need a bit more work and the uvlayout was wasteful. the end result was nice, but about the same level as itskevs model, whereas he carried across a slightly more dynamic character, with better uvlayout and the textures ended up working a bit better.

2nd place goes to Supervlieg. nice model with great meshflow. proportions are pretty spot on to the actor. the texture work is a bit spotty, but ends up looking really nice on the model. overall looks like a character that would be in a video game on the shelves. As a side not, i considered lukavi denzel model, for 2nd place, but the model is weak, and the parts i like about the texture are just straight photosource. it ends up with a look i just dont particularly like.

First place goes to andy h with r lee ermey model. while the face is photo sourced, a good majority of the texture is hand painted, and the blending between the two is done with a fair bit of skill. the uv map itself is well layed outn, and not much waste. the model itself is top notch, and the look is easily that of a character model for a comercial game. to top it off the beauty renders have great expressions and poses. really top notch work.

special mention goes to terrarc for a really funny model. this guy just makes me want to laugh, very good expression. what lost it was the lower half of the model and the texture

muckeywhetnoodles, was good, but the texture was extremely soft, and the face is mostly what made me decide not to place it. the jacket and the shoes are the best parts tho.

congrats to all the finishers

04 April 2004, 07:55 AM
Really nice entries, very close and tough decisions to make, but this is how I saw the judging

3rd place (1 point) - itsKev

Nathen Filion
Malcom Reynolds
Firefly serenity

This looked very promising straight from the get go. Really nice proportions, the geo is probably the best out of the whole competition in my opinion, very good use of pushing polies to their extreme to give lots of volume, nice clean flow in lines/topology too.
UV space is efficiently used.
Texturing is really well done, nice to see some normal mapping, I do have a couple issues with the texturing that tie into the overall aesthetic/appeal of character. First thing I noticed as soon as I saw the final submission was the eyes, the character seems to have a dead stare, looking a bit lifeless. I think this is because the iris is too saturated and not soft enough. I think you were trying to add higher res to the eyes of the character, which is a good idea, but I think you would have been better off using the eyes that are right in the face texture, maybe try that, see how it looks, prove me wrong :shrug: I've seen your other work(which is fantastic by the way) you obviously know what you are doing, but here is my little speech anyways, in my opinion the eyes are what really capture the essence of a character and that is the whole point of this specific competition, I would have given your entry some more points, but the eyes took away that aspect for me. Also, a bit more subtlety in the pant wrinkles under the crotch would have softened up the overall look of the character too. Fantastic work nonetheless, look forward to seeing Thora Birch! :thumbsup:

2nd place (2 points) - Lukavi

Denzel Washington
Detective Alonzo Harris
Training Day

When I first saw you post this entry, I was completely blown away, I thought to myself "that is going to be the winner". Nothing short of amazing. The likeness is very strong. Nice clean mesh/topology, love the proportions, they look especially good in the pose of the full body beauty shot. UV space is well used, not too much wasted space. Texturing is superb, nice subtleties added to the clothes. Small criticism, for the beauty shots, the lighting isn't really working for me, seems a bit too hot in certain areas, like the forehead, hands, pretty minor though. Overall fantastic job! :applause:

1st place (3 points) - Andy H

R Lee Ermey
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman
Full Metal Jacket

No question in my mind that Andy H deserves to win this competition, the challenge was to capture the likeness of the character/actor and Andy executed this with flying colors. The likeness is spot on and with the challenge limitations given, it doesn't get much better than this. Geo is fantastic, great proportions, clean lines/topology throughout from the face to the tips of the boots, used almost the whole poly budget without going over. UV mapping is great, very little wasted space. Texturing is superb, beautifully painted subtleties in the wrinkles of the clothing, the badges really add those extra little detail that don't immediately catch your eye, but make the overall piece more believable. Face texture is fantastic and really brings the character to life, good job testing the eyes and gathering feedback, I did not like separate geometry eyes that you showed at one point, they definitely took away from the essence of the character I thought, glad you went the other way, well done. Minor critique, the spec on the boots looks a touch too high for me, I know those military folk keep their boots super clean, but it makes him look a bit too CG in my opinion, VERY minor. What more to say? This piece kicks ass and makes me want to go watch Full Metal Jacket right now, which i'm going to do as soon as I finish judging.

Honorable mentions

pluckylump - Ted/Bill and Ted - Excellent! Great job overall, the pose at the end is rad, made me laugh(in a good way), he looks a bit cartoony/silly, but I think that still works, awesome!

muckywetnoodle - Johnny Depp/Fear and Loathing - I agree with Poopinmymouth, love the props!

Supervlieg - Daniel Day Lewis/Gangs of New York - I like the style, the eyes need some work, almost like they are made from glass, nice job though!

Seven - Tom Hanks/Forrest Gump - nice job, work on cleaning up that forehead and those painting skills on the shoes.

Anyways that's how it goes. Good job to all participants, Congratulations to everybody who finished, can't wait until till the next one! :thumbsup:

04 April 2004, 04:30 PM
Here's the scores.....

3rd Place: 1 Point
Member - Muckywetnoodle
Actor - Johnny Depp
Character - Raoul Duke
Film - Fear and Loathing

I really liked this entry. I think the cuffs of the sleeves need a little more texture definition. I couldn't tell what was happening there. I really like the costume texture, but the face could use more work. Also, something more dynamic than a T-pose would be nice.

2nd Place: 2 Points
Member - Lukavi
Actor - Denzel Washington
Character - Detective Alonzo Harris
Film - Training Day

~ Good poly count, and great texture. I like that you addressed the different shades of black in his outfit. You can easily distinguish the the shirt from the jacket and the pants. I could easily see this going into a game. I would have liked to see more dynamic poses, though. Also, there's a little texture issue at the bottom of the shirt.

1st Place: 3 Points
Member - Andy H
Actor - R Lee Ermey
Character - Gunnery Sergeant Hartman
Film - Full Metal Jacket

Right on, man. You splurged a little on the polys, and the head model is a bit generic, but it looks great with the texture. Adding an opening mouth and teeth really helped with expressions. You had great presentation, too - I love the poses - it gives life to the character, and I think that put it over the top.

Honorable Mention:
Props to everyone who finished - I think there was something good about all the entries. A few brief comments:

Seven/Forrest Gump - Model was a little stiff. I know, Gump IS stiff, but it just seemed a little unnatural. Also, whether by smoothing groups or texture, there is a big seam on Gump's forehead, and that is just distracting.

Pluckylump/Ted "Theodore" Logan - Good work, but there are some wasted polys, esp. in the face. Would have liked to see more alpha transparency in the hair, in front of the eye. Texture needs work.

Dtrimble/Morpheus - The eyes seem a little far apart. The shiny material and face texture were distracting. Keep working on your textures.

David/de Hollander - I like the character and model, but the face didn't really look like the actor, especially at the eyes.

Terraarc/Obelix - I liked the model - the face was great. The nose looked a bit off in profile, though. I think your textures need the most work. I really liked the flat shaded model, better, and it would have been nice to see him in a dynamic pose. Anything but multiple T-poses.

eMPeck/ Paul Atreides(Muad'dib) - The model seemed squat and stiff, and the textures were blurry. The extrusions in the suit didn't really show the geometry, so you might want to exaggerate them more, or use textures only instead of geometry. Again, more dynamic poses would have helped present the character.

Supervlieg/Bill the Butcher - The character looks a little frail. The reference looked a little more rough-and-tumble. Anatomy reference and more realistic textures would have helped. Props on posing him.

Itskev/Malcom Reynolds - I liked a lot about this entry, but there were a few issues. The hair was too symmetrical, there's a texture seam down the neck, and there's something about the eyes that gives him a staring feel. Also, the texture around the crotch is way too dark. The contrast is disturbing.

Neil/Ichi(1?) the Killer - I like your character choice, but the anatomy is really thin and stiff. Also, more realism in the texture would help.

04 April 2004, 08:37 PM
3rd place - muckywetnoodle

Nice topology on the model and it has a certain style I really like. The huge deficit, allthough it´s not bad, is the texture. Way to blurry but it has a good overally style but the face doesnt fit at all. I actually think it fits to the modeling style to.

But thats not how I want a character from a film to look like in a computergame. Esspecially from that film.

Another thing is you UVing. Not the best, you still have some space to use left and I don´t understand why you give a small object like the swat so much space.

A bonus are the extras allthough the bat (wich I find great that you didnt leave it out) looks like it has been shot down by a gattling gun.

2nd place - Lukavi

Woha, it´s Payne ... no it´s denzel.
Very good topology and texture. You took the model quite a way allthough the folds on the trousers do look a bit painted on.
The UV seam as allready been mentioned. I just have one thing I noticed ... where is the geometry for the alphamapped badge an chains ??? I cant see it on the wireshot

1st place - Andy H

Not alot I need to say that hasnt been said yet. TOP modeling. BUT at the ellbow ... why do you have so less geometry around it but you have given the part where it bends in so much ?

The texture made me cry ... THATS HOW I WANT TO SEE A FILMSTAR IN A GAME. Very well done allthough I would of liked to see you do Jonny Depp in "Fear and Loathing". Has a great volume and depth to it great and the UV space is also well used.

Also love the beauty shot ... great piece of work :applause:

Love theese comps, just shows how many great talents are around theese forms :)

All the others I didnt mention don´t have to be sad, a new comp a new chance ... and you do get better.

I´ll still mention itskev with his great model, great topology but the texture didnt do it for me.

I´d like to finish my judgeing with the 2 most used phrases in theese forms

Keep it up & good luck


04 April 2004, 10:04 PM
Congratulations to everyone who made the deadline. There were some that I really liked that didnft make the deadline: Harrison Ford and Zhao Wei where are you. And where is that PeeWee Herman someone promised.:cry:

On to the judging

3rd place (1 point)
Nathen Filion
Malcom Reynolds
Firefly serenity

Great model! I agree with dudeguy, this model probably has the best geometry placement of the bunch. The proportions are great and the geometry flow is very ambitious and works very well. I think that the model without the textures is A+. Just with only the wireframe the model looks like the actor. My favorite part was the forearms and hands.
I didnft really like the texture though. Overall it was quite muddy. Some areas were too dark mainly the crotch and his face. I also think the self-illumination should have been placed somewhere between 50-100 he has too many dark areas in his face that are not on the texture. Also the eyes had an intense dead stare to them. But I really liked the model & I think with more work on the texture he would be so much better.

2nd place (2 points)
Actor - Denzel Washington
Character - Detective Alonzo Harris
Film - Training Day

Great model, great textures! You really captured Denzelfs look. The proportions look good, UV Layout is good. Good job handling the different shades of black on all the different materials of his clothes. A few small crits, I think the wrinkles in the pants should be softer and toned down a bit. There is a visible texture seam on the shirt. Looking at the reference photo, the goatee should be a little fuller and not connect up to the soul patch. He looks a little younger than I think he was in that movie, but overall great model.

1st place (3 points)
Andy H - R Lee Ermey - Full Metal Jacket

Great job all around! Knowing your previous work, I knew you would come to this competition with a top-notch modelc and you didnft disappoint. Poly usage is very good, proportions look good, The UV Layout was well thought out and non wasteful. I think the strongest aspect of the character is how wonderful the textures turned out. Yes the head, hands, and accessories are photo sourced, but thatfs expected when making a photo realistic character. The challenge is successfully combining those touched-up photos with all the hand painted elements. Which I feel you were successful in doing. You probably would have still got 1st place from me if this model was only in a T-pose, but you went the extra mile and rigged the model. The posing & the great beauty render were just icing on the cake. But there are some flaws. The boots really need some lovinf. They remind me of those little plastic coin wallet things Anyway that should be an easy fix before he makes his way on to your reel.

Great job everyone!

04 April 2004, 09:08 AM
**Only Judges will post their comments along with their scores, At the end of this thread starting Monday. If you are not a judge, but want to comment. Please post in their WIP thread.**

Let's streamline the thread and keep it strictly business, okay?

04 April 2004, 07:43 AM
3rd place:

Nathen Filion
Malcom Reynolds
Firefly serenity

- great start to what could be a really cool and functional model
- geometry and proportions are nice and aggressive...shows great panache...nice stylization
- face does not really look like actor
- textures, while using texture space wisely, seem discontinuos...the textures are all over the place, with some areas feeling less done than others...more unity throughout the texturing is needed...pick a texturing style and go with it
- mesh appears like it will deform well
- crotch is way too dark
- i would love to see this model can be a really strong model

2nd place:

Denzel Washington
Detective Alonzo Harris
Training Day

- clean model
- captures the character well
- the face is not as Denzel as it can looks like his brother, not Denzel
- the lapels of his jacket are pretty pronounced...I would have cut them in instead of just texturing them
- the fingers are a tad dainty
- the folds at the bottom of his pant legs seem unfinished and pained in in little time with little effort
- nice overall model

1st place:

Andy H
R Lee Ermey
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman
Full Metal Jacket

- really great overall look and feel
- really captured the character and the actor
- I can almost hear the audio seep from this model...oh to yell like R Lee Ermy
- great texturing...shows how to use photosource without it looking solely like photo reference
- efficient texturing and use of texture space
- great topology...i bet i can make him breakdance and the topology won't break
- nice and efficient flow

04 April 2004, 09:37 AM
Lol sorry guys didnt know i was supposed to judge, ill try to slip this in a few hours late though >_<

3rd Place - itsKev (1 Point)

Tough decision between itsKev, muckywetnoodle and Lukavi, i had to go with itsKev though as he has his wires up (im late and didnt see Lukavi's wip thread) and he has nice renders too. Tough to choose between the three >_<. I really like this one, looks good.

2nd Place - Supervlieg (2 points)

Nice work, the render looks really good. I still need to see that movie hehe. The render really wins me over, the texture and model are great too. Good job!

1st Place - Andy H (3 points)

I was going to try to do this one for a entry and im glad i didnt. A few of the poses kinda dont look like him imo (side views), but that render almost nails him right on the head. Nice model and texturing, great render, gj.

Sorry for the quick rundowns hehe, and sorry for being late (i didnt know i swear!!) this is my fav comp so far, cant wait to see which ones next (and hopefully enter)!!

Its really hard to pick between alot of these too, so many were so good, great job to everyone that tried, unlike me hehe!

04 April 2004, 07:36 PM
So, is that it? Is it time to tally?

04 April 2004, 10:37 PM
Tell me about it..... Ive won, but it doesnt feel like it :surprised
I did get an excellent hotdog trophy off Happosai (check the games comp#6 thread) though I wouldnt put it on my site or anything... :hmm:

Also - Happosai - if youre reading this, can you send me everthing i need to know to organise the next comp? I sent you a mail, but I dont know if youve recieved it.

Thanks a lot to everyone who voted!

04 April 2004, 12:18 AM
I just sent the e-mail. let me know if you got it or not.

04 April 2004, 01:00 AM
For some reason after all the judging, these comps always end kind of weird. Probably due to the lack of a ceremony, plus everyone is pooped out. :p

Here are the results of Cgtalk's Gameart comp # 6

3rd place: itskev 5points
2nd place: Lukavi 12points
1st place: Andy H 24points

Congratulations to everyone who entered. Thank you to all the judges and mods for helping me with this comp.

I hope that this theme presented a challenge to everyone as artists. The main reason I chose the theme was because games based on movies and TV shows are big now in the US. Since they are Money makers for the companies, expect to see this trend continue to grow in our industry. I hope that everyone received the comments and crits that were given to them in both the WIP threads and judging, and that those crits can be used to help push your model to the next level.

AndyH, Goodluck with the next comp!

mods- feel free to lock this thread if needed.