View Full Version : The Tale Of Kar, Lildragon (3D)

06 June 2002, 01:27 PM (

Well Wiro went cold and I went hot :) here's another creature from the PA challenge in Feb.. These are the first two of 6 siggraph posters I plan to make.. the other 4 are of Beyond

The first render took 11mins and the second 7mins on my Athlon 1800+ with 1 gig of ram at the resolution of 3300x5100 and 5100x3300.. quite fast, I won't be making much changes to them but feel free to comment..

They'll be printed on high gloss on 11x17 sheets, and will be handed out at siggraph this year..

06 June 2002, 01:30 PM
ya know how I feel about em bud ;) givin some lovin to ya hehe

06 June 2002, 01:39 PM
Well, you already know what I think lild - great stuff;)

06 June 2002, 01:39 PM
the thumb ! the thumb! huhuhuh

06 June 2002, 01:42 PM
Ditto to what Eq said. Man I dig that second image though. Such a cool pose. i get my own signed copy right? :D!

06 June 2002, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by Taoizm
Man I dig that second image though. Such a cool pose. i get my own signed copy right? :D!

I second that :D:D:D:D

06 June 2002, 01:48 PM
Like the rest, you know what I think... but DAMN cool. If you're not careful you're going to get snapped up by Blizzard or something you know. ;)


06 June 2002, 01:59 PM
Dude! You rock! You did realy great work and you know that! :D

genesis max
06 June 2002, 02:01 PM
Hey man, that is so cool( I mean hot, whatever).Post some wireframes.

06 June 2002, 02:04 PM
Really a great job lil :-)

06 June 2002, 02:19 PM
Is that me?:airguitar :wavey:

06 June 2002, 02:22 PM
Very cool stuff l'D. Really like the second one a lot. Look forward to seeing the other 4. :thumbsup:

Really wish I could attend sig, but I have a hard enough time when it's me and texas in the dead of summer would not be the best of ideas. Have fun and good luck! :)

06 June 2002, 02:43 PM
whooo thats great!!!!!!

reeaaly love the second one


06 June 2002, 03:10 PM
Reminds me of Rock from soul calibur/blade.

06 June 2002, 03:14 PM
You know my c&c's too ;)
Great pics, I also like the second one best.

We'll swap posters at Siggy then, hehe


06 June 2002, 03:17 PM
Wow, the second one is awsome!!! :eek:
The pose and the lighting are superb!!

06 June 2002, 03:32 PM
Excellent work may have already said it somewhere, but do you have any plans for animation with him?

and are you attending Siggraph on behalf of CGchannel, or personal enjoyment?

just wonderin what the posters are for.....

06 June 2002, 03:34 PM
I want a poster !!! :thumbsup:

06 June 2002, 03:54 PM
Thats for a booth @ Siggraph?
Is it a gaming image? Because its really a
great piece of work...!!!
But is it high enough for Siggraph?
Not the first image.....

The second one is pretty amazing.
The composition and moods are great...!!!:buttrock:

Nice job.


06 June 2002, 04:15 PM
I think it is a great attempt. There are definetly things very well accomplished however I would not conscider this a superior model or character design. The joint kind of bug me. The pose of the character in the first render is unatural looking. His ankle is bowed. He looks uncomfortable. Everything appears to be the same material because there is no breakup of the specular highlights. It appears your using just slight variations on a blinn shader without a map to go along. I do not understand the attire. What is the characters prey and what is preying on it? Where does it live? Here on "the rock" in a desert? Study some animals that live in a rocky enviornment or a desert enviornment. They evolve a particular way for survival. You've not accounted for this. A good reference example is Jar Jar. His skin is like that of a salimander as it should he lives like an amphibian.
I do like the small details you've paid in the surrounding landscape. pebbles, grass, twigs etc... consciderate. Nice work! However I think you lost sight of the bigger more obvious details.
Check out classic greek sculpture contrapasto, and stand in the mirror looking at yourself holding something like your character in the first pose to improve it.
Your characters lighting doesn't match closely to the background sky image you threw in there. Notice the location of the sun, time of day the sky suggests and relight.
He is too clean looking for a character who lives in the desert or mountains, is barely clothed for a character who "NEEDS" a full face mask to breath and see.
Study some of the star wars characters on the desert planet and pay attention to the deep creases of their skin which are clean and sweaty surrounded by a thin amount of wet dirt and the rest of the skins covered in dry dirt or dust. Also drive around at a construction site and notice where dirt and dust collect on vehicles.
Just some thoughts, If you account for these your images will improve 10 fold. Its not easy. Its obvious you had patients and talent to accomplish all this so far.

06 June 2002, 04:26 PM

U know what I think about the first one !!!

The second is greeaaaaaaaaattttttttttttttt !!!!!

to thumb...some of your comments are not totaly false you're right, but stop touching yourself man !!!
Sure when you saw Monsters you said to yourself, this is not correct, this little green one eyed monster is not living in the appropriate environment and he can't drive a car !!!! :rolleyes:

06 June 2002, 04:51 PM
I think thumb has many valid points in his message. Maybe the rest of us are more used to where Kar evolved from and how his particular "reality" was setup as more of a fantasy creature.

It's good that someone new has a serious and well thought out crit. Some of his points may not exactly fit what the rest of us know Kar to be, but I personally appreciate crits like that because they do lead to a better project.

06 June 2002, 04:55 PM
That second image just rocks. Great pose, great lighting, just all around great atmosphere to the image. I love it.

I only hope I can get somehwat close to that level of detail and composition, (still a rookie at 30 :thumbsup: )

I third or fourth the motion for my own copy!! :D


06 June 2002, 04:58 PM
You guys rock, thanx for all the awesome feedback.. I'm extremely pysched that you like them..

Wiro: we better heheh

Titan: Yup I have a trailer I would like to finish, but now I'll add this scene with him crawling out on this ledge. I'm heading to siggy for both, but more so for me, I'm looking for a break to get in the industry, I'm tired of trucks :hmm:

kydjester: no prob you heading to Siggy?

Lesen* not for a booth, but for me and Eye Candy Studios I need a job :)

thumb_wrestler: you da man, that's one marvelous crit :thumbsup: and as Tao said alot of peeps here know where Kar evolved from, he was done for a 1 mth challenge. I wasn't heading for a photoreal creature or environment, but more fantasy, cause I find photoreal stuff boring :hmm:

Your points sound of experience which is awesome, but these points would be extremely valid if I were trying to composite Kar into the next starwars rather than his own reality.

I really appreciate the time you took to write this crit, I was thinking about most of what you stated but maybe I will put them in the next time around, and still try to keep that fantasy edge.. cheers mate

Cheers guys and thanx a bunch, I look forward to meeting those of you that are attending Siggy :D

06 June 2002, 05:07 PM
Those are mother freaking cool, beautiful!!!:eek:

06 June 2002, 06:13 PM
hey is everyone meet up at Siggraph?
We should have a user group meeting or something!

06 June 2002, 06:48 PM
Guenisimo:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

06 June 2002, 07:33 PM
Thumb wrestler was right about the joints in the first pose.

I'd agree that the second render is superb. It's really great looking; quite impressive work, lilD!

The only thing I'd say about the pose is that there's something about the arms that don't jive.

character's right arm - bicep doesn't seem to be involved in the arm's bend

character's left arm - shoulder joint seems dislocated

Sorry if I've repeated anything! Overall, both renders are marvelous.

Dan Dixon
06 June 2002, 07:39 PM
LIL great job with the style .Not much more to say do to i already let ya know what i thought of it. cheers

06 June 2002, 07:54 PM
Badass!! Very cool, I like the second image alot. Solid pose and good composition. Sound color theory as well! The first image is good, but there's some issues with the composition. Seems like you've got to many area's of focus and my eye keeps getting draged down to the bottom right corner of the image. Part of the problem may be that the character is framing the image with his weapons which causes a large portion of the character to get cut off compositionally (vs. another external object, such as a tree or a bridge that frames the character and focuses the audience toward the character). Hope that made sense. This is all in IMHO so I hope I didn't come across like a jerk. :)

06 June 2002, 08:45 PM
Great attention to detail!

Love that just as much detail was placed on the ground and rock textures as there was to the character.

06 June 2002, 10:21 PM
Great stuff, LilD. G'luck on your job hunt, I'm sure you'll find at least a few. :buttrock:

Henrik Hrlin
06 June 2002, 11:35 PM
Yo! Great work! You send your posters overseas to Europe? :)

Im gonna give you some crits, good ones! Im not that good of a modeler... but I know picture composition!

First picture:
Agree on the pose, hes falling over to the left. move the body to the (picture) right so his ankle straightens up and leave the feet where they are.
Loose the grass. It looks out of place. Its too dry for green grass to grow there.
The edge between the rock and dirt is to sharp. you know what to do.
Make some impressions in the ground around his feet, it looks lie hes turning in place and that would make marks in the ground.
Dirty him up abit.

Second picture:
Loose the grass on the rock. Grass dont grow on rocks!
The sword, how would it look if he held it uppright? Have you tried that? I dont think it will look better but... it might? Maybee place the sword in the ther hand... naaah! never mind.
This pose would be an EXELLENT chance to do a siluett of him against that sky! Just use the sunlight and make an epic siluette pose! I think that would be a killer!!

Great pictures! Love m!

06 June 2002, 11:42 PM
i've read em all and all points are pretty much on in my opinion. the top one in terms of pose balance. another thing i'm not sure if it was mentioned or not. he comes off as a pretty tough warrior guy...but his is tenderly holding his weapon and stick or whatever.....he should have a good solid grip to match his character....think sounds. everything else is pretty awesome.

06 June 2002, 11:58 PM
you guys totally kick butt, thx

Most of you are mentioning the balance of the character and I totally agree, I didn't put as much effort into this pose as I did the cliff scene, BUT I can go back to it later maybe I'll have time, but I have to press these posters out with some T's e.t.c but at least I know what to do now in future composition, thx to Anticz especially for that crit..

I'm somewhat new to composition but I tend to hit something now and again...

Henrik: awesome those extra small details really shines in a scene, and I'll see if I can do something if I have enough time.. under a month argh :argh: and grass can grow in patches on cliff no? hmm ah well heheh

fluxgrafx: I'm extremely glad you brought this to the table, why? because this is Kar's personality, he's a gentle giant, but only when aggravated enough will he get extremely aggressive.. I tried to convey his intellect in these images, he's not just a great warrior, but a compassionate one, he has a very calm side, notice his hands like you did in the second pic, see the right hand how it graces the stone? it's showing yeh he's stalking BUT he's patient, calm and knows when to strike, he's background states he's not a young spear headed warrior but a very intelligent beast..

and for all who want posters, just drop me a line I'll hook you up even if you're not at Siggy.. :)


06 June 2002, 12:29 AM


Hope we get to see him animated on day.
Looks like he could kick some serious butt!


06 June 2002, 12:35 AM
Great stuff, especially the second (as been said ;))

one ity thing to do if you can, just add some dark spots (in PS) to his belly to break up the mass of white.It's subtle, but will draw att. away from that part (which was actaully the very first part of him I looked at) and make it blend into the rest - Like you did with the bottom of the legs!

Best of luck on the job-hunt! I'll be ordering one poster of the second ;)

see you,


(back online!)

06 June 2002, 01:37 AM
You'ce come a loooong way since Sparks!

06 June 2002, 10:15 AM
Sigma: you most def will ;)

l_farley13_l: cool which poster are you referring to? and thx I'll need it :)

Kerlin: you remember SPARKS!! :eek: that was like 4 yrs and some, you peaked my curiosity, cause that means you knew me from my truespace days :) do I know ya?


06 June 2002, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by lildragon

Kerlin: you remember SPARKS!! :eek: that was like 4 yrs and some, you peaked my curiosity, cause that means you knew me from my truespace days :) do I know ya?

Indirectly. Only as list subscribers. I remember your work, though. Sparks is still in the gallery, btw.

You've come a very VERY long way.

So, what are you using now? Lightwave?

06 June 2002, 03:24 PM
thumb is dead on with all of his crits. listen to him...
I cant stress enough the importance of making believable and "correct" models. you and others have said time and time again that this character is a product of his own reality, a fantasy reality. that's all well and good but that doesn't make it "ok" that areas are poorly modeled and textured. and it really sounds allot like an excuse.

it looks like you were going for the blizzard type feel with your shot, and if you compare it to a blizzard shot, say the one with the knight, you'll notice the areas where you could improve your work.

the warcraft image has a very stylized and fantasy feel yet its full of apparent realism.. the rock looks like a rock its not all smooth and blobby, the ground and the grass show a good level of visual interest. the knight has correct looking materials and textures giving the illusion that his various parts are made of various materials. you would do well to try and mimic this image and bring some of it into yours

that may sound a bit harsh, but if you don't pay attention to details you'll likely never progress as an artist. or more immediately important, get the job that you want.

if I were you I'd take thumbs advice to heart, then rethink, redesign, and remodel.. you still have time before sigrraph to redo this stuff and i think you would be much happier with the results. i know it may be hard leaving something behind that you have worked on for so long, but if you start over it will only prove to make the final piece better and make you a better artist.


06 June 2002, 03:27 PM
chin why do you always insist on riding my back? seriously do you get of on this? Anyhoo at any rate I've already stated thumb's crits were excellent, and I know areas that need improvement, I'm far from being a pro artist but as long as I'm happy with my projects I feel good :) Also the fact that you compare my art to that of Blizzard is quite an honor, I can probably muster 10% of their mastery, so that's cool

Anywhoo thx for your concerns


06 June 2002, 04:55 PM
LilD, that looks great man! Pay no mind to the jealous dissertation of a member cloaked in anonymity. Jealousy is ugly!What you have accomplished, while not perfect, was a big step forward in your work. You seem very proud of this, and you should be! :thumbsup:

06 June 2002, 10:04 PM
I've got to give you props for the second image; it is a great pose and has great colors!:thumbsup:

I don't know what the history is between you and chin, but I just thought I would point out that when you do a piece for your portfolio, you are actually doing it for an art director you don't know, and who will know nothing about your character. He will look at it with preconcieved ideas and you probably won't get a chance to explain to him what your intentions were.

For example if you made a guy with one leg longer than the other because he lives on a hill, the art director is just going to think that you modeled the legs wrong, y'know?

Anyhoo, hope you're not offended, just trying to help. :shrug:

Henrik Hrlin
06 June 2002, 10:20 PM
OK I culdnt help myself. I just had to see what the second picture looked like in siluette. Just some very rought PS-edit.
Hope you dont mind. Its just that your lighting is very hollywoodish. Unless hes got a reflective screen between him and the camera it dosnt look right, too polished. It culd work if you put some watery reflections on him.
If you want more realism I think this would be more realistic and it looks somewhat more dramatic too.
Just my opinion. Do what ever you want!

06 June 2002, 10:38 PM
I think Lil is not only trying to show a niece piece of artwork...
anybody can show a big black silhouette in front of a nice sky...

this piece of artwork is also there to show his modeling skills...with you're idea (which is not bad) it doesn't show anything !!!!

06 June 2002, 12:44 AM
nice work lil dragon, for some reason i love the silouette(sp?) idea, it just looks very dramatic and removes the cg-ish feel of the original renders. just my two cents

06 June 2002, 01:37 AM
Well if anyone is still interested, I've made the posters available for print at, as I've had a handful of requests

I'll be printing some myself locally, so if you see me at Siggraph I'll still be giving them out..

thx again for all your comments


06 June 2002, 04:06 AM
Hey man, the lil girl in your services area, Is that your daughter. She cracks me up every tie i see that part. My fiancee thinks she is the most adorable thing.

06 June 2002, 01:52 PM
Julez I wish, I don't have any kids *yet*

here's some wireframes for those that requested or are interested


06 June 2002, 03:12 PM
Are we gonna meet up at Siggraph, everyone ...

Henrik Hrlin
06 June 2002, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by baby
I think Lil is not only trying to show a niece piece of artwork...
anybody can show a big black silhouette in front of a nice sky...

this piece of artwork is also there to show his modeling skills...with you're idea (which is not bad) it doesn't show anything !!!!

Well Im not trying to (make Lilldragon) show a black siluette against a nice sky. If you make a poster, It (IMO) shuld not only show that you are a great modeler (you are Lilldragon) but what you can do with it. I like both posters alot and would propbably by all (six) of them if they were nice too look at. But right now it looks CG-show-off-ish. Show that you can use some lighting too. Im not saying that it shuld be all black (if you look carefully you see some textures and stuff on my "take" of it). The other posters will show Kar in all his glory anyway. :)

two more cents.

06 June 2002, 11:18 PM
No damn silhouettes, it's near perfect as it is. My one crit would be the smooth rock. Rocks get smoothed by flow of water and since this one is jutting out like that it tells me it's not water formed, but rather pushed out a'la plate techtonics. This would mean it would likely be rougher and more jagged than smooth.

Someone commented that it looks too "hollywood" with the lighting etc. Ever stop to think that maybe that's what he wants? Perhaps that's the look he was after and guess what? He nailed it. :)

06 June 2002, 11:10 AM
Ok I understand what you guys meant about the rock being to smooth and as Dtitus mentioned, that usually happens by the effects of water


forgot to mention, this is a raw render, no post work, there's lots of harshness and the sky is all wrong... so don't mention that part of it..


06 June 2002, 12:23 PM
Wow, huge improvement! If you could get some of the sun to play off the rock with some rimlights it would bring out the form more.


06 June 2002, 10:37 PM
thx Wiro, so I guess by everyone's silence that's a go then? :) okie...


06 June 2002, 10:44 PM
Very cool rock surface, though I could 'buy' the other one as being worn down from water, who knows about the geologic past, though it looks like it's very high up.

Anyway this one's much better, the only thing I don't like is the end of it towards the right, looks kind of like broken off cigarette or styrofoam, very strange..the larger scale rock surface on the rest of it works better..but that's just IMO.

Keep em coming..really want to see what you do for the others.

06 June 2002, 10:47 PM
I think the rock is a huge improvement!:applause:

I do think that it would look a bit better if you could incorporate something either between him and the camera, or behind him. I think it would help push the depth. Where you still going to put in grass? I think that might do it.

Awesome sky! Was that done in painter? Love the colors. :love:

06 June 2002, 12:11 AM
Hey Lil Dragon,
That is really looking good. I do agree with the fore ground element of some sort. Also maybe some smaller rocks and pebbles on the surface of the large stone? Can you say tertiary detail?

As for the sky? Who needs Painter when I've got Photoshop 7!
Except for the kick ass grid feature in painter. I would just kill for that in PS.

Dan Dixon
06 June 2002, 12:29 AM
ya that a big improvement lil and wiro I thing about the rim on the rocks might help out also i'm not to sure about the spec on the sword the spec on the top and bottom and his arm would block the spec from the top but that might be a little picky but none the less nice improvement. i'm going have to start modeling again to catch up to art on this form.

06 June 2002, 02:22 AM
Wiro: Yup you got that right, rimlights are mucho important, I've been playing with them lots this image

hypercube: Thx for the comments, yeh I agree with your explanation, without seeing the surrounding environment it leaves interpetation up to the viewer

pearson: I was thinking something like this earlier on but just in passing, maybe in another composition.. thx

KOryH: once again I can't thank you enough for painting this sky, it just made this scene, everything in base on this sky in this comp.. and that's not a bad idea... ah well maybe next comp heh

Dan Dixon: Yeh I had some issues with specs in total, I'm still learning the real importance of specs and when and where to use them.. tough stuff indeed

thx much guys, I'll be moving on to my next project as this one is done... well since I have to move on or I'll be on this for the whole month heh..

here's the final comp... no more changes will be made...

if you're so inclined to want a larger copy here's a 1600 pixel one

much thx for your help again guys..


06 June 2002, 04:18 AM
You know, other than the pose, color selection, and lighting it's pretty good. (nudge, nudge, wink, wink, know what I mean?) :beer:

06 June 2002, 06:43 AM
WOW! I really like the second image the best! But it's a great character in either pic. The only suggestions I have are to put in some more shadows to weight the character down to the environment. He seems comp'd in on both images.

*new desktop image for me!*

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

06 June 2002, 12:14 PM
Great stuff ! lildragon Rulez!!!!!!!!!!:buttrock: :buttrock:
Great job :thumbsup:

06 June 2002, 07:28 PM
I must say Kirt is right...

a very light 2d shadow (a la Brazil) between Kar and the rock would definitly be the last killing detail...

07 July 2003, 11:44 PM
he is freaky@!!!
Great image.

10 October 2004, 12:32 PM
how did u make / design your background ?
what program did you use ?
can you let me know ?
background looks sweet :thumbsup:
thanks mate ! :)

01 January 2005, 03:36 AM
Fantastic colours. I am trying put this 'unusal' colours to my pictures.....
its very sensitive...

07 July 2005, 11:01 PM
Frightful, i would like to see wireframe of that beast.

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