View Full Version : Body topology

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03 March 2006, 10:57 PM
Hello everyone. I have been following this thread for quite awhile and wanted to say I appreciate all the knowledge that is shared here. With that said, I'll toss my model in the ring. I know there are still a lot of spots that need to be worked out (like the ankles, and buttocks, etc.) but I would appreciate any additional suggestions/comments.


04 April 2006, 02:58 PM
was reading through the thread yesturday and Steven, you had mentioned using a smooth flood script. The post was about 2yrs old, and the script I found on highend3d was uploaded/posted in 2001 updated for maya v4. Are you still using the script?

04 April 2006, 10:47 AM
hey there been workin on this girl for a bit now on and off . I cant stop adding details anyway I would love to here some crits.. so I thought I would post an update.. I am thinking about rigging. I will probably use rigid binding and lattices..(maya 7) any suggestions?

this is my second character I have modeled in maya so far and still have lots to learn about rigging and driven blend shapes.. Im guessing thats how I will go about it..

oh yeah I have lots of modeling to do still and it is already over half a million polys ;-)

and call me crazy for poly modeling the fishnet and the dragonfly wing. I just dont feel like transparency mapping today.. :-)

04 April 2006, 09:18 PM
Are you still using the script?
No, now I use TSM2 - The Setup Machine for Maya 2.

robbackman - wow those wings look crazy... how did you do them, displacement mapping converted to geometry? Rest of her looks great too.

DivineRAiN, I've never tried that. I've tried having one misss shader on the lips, and another on the rest of the face, it's a bit tricky but possible, check out the Misss tests thread in Maya Rendering forum (cause I don't recall the solution offhand). :)

scollins01, the main portion of the body looks great. The hands and feet look a bit 'boxy', probably due to box-modeling right? :) The fingers are parallell but they can't be in that pose, they have to diverge a bit. Same with the toes. The palm of the hand curves, see a mini-tute on my site Howto for more. The topside of the feet are a bit too smooth, need some more hints of veins and stuff, I have another tutorial for modeling feet.

Still working in Denmark, I'll be back home April 9

04 April 2006, 05:44 AM
hey thanx for the comment. the wings I actually modeled in wings hehe. wings 3d that is!! I did the entire thing by hand poly by poly(took me about 2 days).. wings is the program that I learned first and it seems like a keeper. I deffinatly love the maya modeling functions but there are just a few functions that I havent found.. mainly Bridge and edge slide.. as well as the ability to move faces and edges along their individual normals.

for the bridge it seems like maybe a script could be made that acomplishes this with the apend to poly function.. but not sure if it would be practical. its just nice to be able to grab two n-sided polys and automatically appending the gap.

and for the edgeslide it seems like the code is there. for instance the cut edgeloop tool seems to use the idea of sliding an edge loop. but I dunno

ahwell i am sure in time I will figure workflows around these functions and maybe stop using wings but for now its great..

ahwell its time to start texturing

04 April 2006, 06:44 PM
bridge exists as a bonus tool. but I dont know what edge slice is in Wings.

04 April 2006, 07:40 PM
Hey guys, sorry if this is a bit cheeky but I thought I may as well mention a large tutorial/research document that I've put together on head modelling/texturing/rendering, a large proportion of the modelling stuff comes from wisdom gained in this thread. I intend to go back to it in about a months time and update it with proper hair, eyes, eyelashes and animation.

Anyway, if anyone finds it useful or has any suggestions then please let me know. Also some of the images I've included come from this thread, if anyone has a problem with me using any of them then tell me and I'll take them out.


04 April 2006, 11:27 PM
k, thanks Steven, I had thought it was possible.. I'll check out the misss test thread some more. Lately I've been having a grand ole time with the paint weight tool.. the shoulders are probably one of the worse in the 3d scene atm, I doubt it's possible to get decent deformations by just painting weights for that. Was working on the leg bend, with the leg infront of her, and I thought it was going ok until I swung her leg to the back. Makes me question if it's even possible to get decent deformations for both poses by just painting weights alone.

04 April 2006, 12:34 AM
DivineRain - I'll be following your rigging progress closely. I'm sure I'll learn a lot. Just a thought about the leg bending issue: try lying flat on your belly and lifting your thigh while keeping your hips flush to the floor. How far does it bend backwards and which muscles are involved?

04 April 2006, 12:36 AM
Simple smooth bind won't keep the volume of the muscles and fat and bones, it's a consequence of how it works. You may try to combine smooth and rigid bind and get a relatively good looking knee and elbow with flexors; but they usually fail miserably on hips and shoulders. A more complex setup with a few extra bones may help too; and then there are various fakes and simulations...

You can try Michael Comet's free pose based deformer for a start, it takes quite a lot of work to build a full set of shapes for a character but it's a good solution. It's somewhat more complicated and at the same time easier to use than simple corrective blendshapes (as it's not rotation but pose space based).

Then there's the fusiMuscle plugin that came with a Maya masterclass a few years ago, it might be available as freeware by now, I don't now. And so on, and so on.

The bottom line is that a simple smooth bind won't get good results.

Daniel Whitton
04 April 2006, 01:26 AM
Hi Steven I was just wondering if you were back from Holland.

04 April 2006, 05:39 AM
Yes, I'm back! (but from Denmark not Holland) :D

Makes me question if it's even possible to get decent deformations for both poses by just painting weights alone.
Absolutely and definitively NO, it's not possible.
The reason is you only have 1-dimensional control over each point - you can move the point along a single curved path, no more. No sideways, no outwards.

With an extra joint here and there, you can gain back some of that control: pros: you can detach and re-attach a skin easily, even if you change the geometry slightly. Cons: it's a bit tedious to set up, needing lots of expressions or SetDrivenKeys to work.
For the really difficult areas you need Blendshapes. That's the main reason why I keep my body topology as light as possible, I usually need a whole bunch of Blendshapes on the body. I've managed up to 60 (one on each finger among other parts) without noticing a performance hit.

Of course, one day this will all be laughable history, and we'll just click the button that says 'muscle simulation' and presto. :)

Matt B, that's an awesome resource you done there!

04 April 2006, 08:36 AM
Divine Rain

As Laa Yosh has commented already, extra bones or blendshape correctors are pretty much THE way to go. If you PM me your email or just get my email from my details and mail me directly...I have some literature that may help you that I use as a rule for my stuff


04 April 2006, 12:21 AM
Hey Jay, I might be interested in that, too. Is there any good literature out there that is not too application specific?

Daniel Whitton
04 April 2006, 01:16 AM
Hi Steven.

I have just started my face today and was working from a screen shot of your new one. I know I have a lot of work ahead of me and was wondering if you can post some screen grabs of your topo. Some problem areas for me now are the top of the eyelid and the inside corner of the eye. Which from I can see is not in a straight line with the ouside corner. It's more pushed out. Also the nostril is a bit tricky. Thanks and my bad on Denmark. Hope it was a nice trip.

04 April 2006, 09:53 PM
thanks everyone.. just downloaded michael comet's pose deformer plug-in, and added a few joints to the thighs and knees. Now there won't be a problem with using the pose deformer while having a smooth proxy (on a different layer), will there?

Daniel, how does it look when it's smoothed? Tho I'm not Steven, I did try to do his recent topology for the face. Are you using spheres for the eyes right now? And I'm not sure if your workflow is making you add too many edges too soon.. it's easier to tweak a very light mesh to get the face to look the way you want then add to it as you go into more details.
In the topology thread (modeling forum) Steven had posted a shot of a base mesh which is light and I had used that before I added the edges shown in his recent topology pic.
a pic that steven had posted, and the other is what I had done with the eyes.

04 April 2006, 11:25 PM
Steven, I suggest you also to check out the pose deformer plugin. The entire workflow seems to be far easier to manage, although you do loose some of the flexibility of a blendshape deformer too. But the up side is that it gets better results and generally it does not require extra trickery...

04 April 2006, 04:58 PM
I suggest you also to check out the pose deformer plugin.
I have, it's really great, the best thing for any joint with several degrees of freedom and Blendshapes on more than one of them, like the shoulders - much better than SetDrivenKeying to distance measuring locators parented to different joints, for instance, which is what I did before. But for simple finger joints, I don't know, maybe best to just use SDK to the single Rot channel as always.

Daniel Whitton, it looks good. Hope you got what you wanted from the face DivineRAiN posted. Not sure what's wrong with the inside corner being further out than the outside corners, that's usually the case in real life too, just maybe not so much... but it varies. Study some references of a face shot from below, if you can find it.

Daniel Whitton
04 April 2006, 08:02 PM
THanks Divine for your reply. Low res version helped alot.

Thank You Steven.

Looking at Divines post I hit the delet button and started over. I got a bettter concept of your flow from the lower res version. I was still looking at the nose between the two nostrils and the flow from the nose across the upper eyelid from you newer model. I think I understand how it's by looking at your older one. Thanks for the help.

Daniel Whitton
04 April 2006, 09:58 PM
Hi steven. I have been working alot with this face and still need a little help. I'm using reference from Gabi. Looking at your topo which is a 3/4 view I manged to get this so far. I was wondering if you could post up some screen shots of yours from an orth view. I am looking at where the cheek and arch match up as well as the brow line and upper eyelid, also the inner bottom of the nostril. Thanks very much.


04 April 2006, 07:57 PM
ok, these things can be tweaked n tweaked, and tweaked some more. To work out some smoothing issue that was bugging me where the edges/polys were showing up, I added more edges to the nose n chin. Face count now is 8104. Widened the mouth n tweaked the eyes a lil bit.

much different from what she had looked like in January... it's kinda weird

04 April 2006, 08:17 AM
very nice improvments

04 April 2006, 06:10 PM
Daniel, here are the front and side ortho views of my latest head.

04 April 2006, 06:24 PM
Heh, the general edge flow is starting to look quite similar to my prefered layout... but I always make sure to go with (a few tris and) quads so that it can get into Zbrush ;)

I guess all roads lead to Rome indeed.

Daniel Whitton
04 April 2006, 06:39 PM
Thanks Steven

Sorry for being a persistent pain in the ass but this helps a ton.


04 April 2006, 04:23 AM
I've tried 5-sides with Z-brush before and found that as long as they're not that many or huge or in sensitive areas they can work. Anyway I wouldn't take this into Zbrush on this level, I'd smooth it once first.

BTW here's a rendering of it.

05 May 2006, 08:31 AM
thx for image steven :D

05 May 2006, 03:02 PM
Daniel, here are the front and side ortho views of my latest head.

Steven are your eyelashes imageplane snap to the eyelids, parented, modeled(weld) to the face.

Do you custom rigged your models or use a third party plugin: Advanced Skeleton or Setup Machine!

05 May 2006, 05:33 AM
are your eyelashes imageplane snap to the eyelids, parented, modeled(weld) to the faceThey're just grouped with the head, and the whole group is Blendshaped to create all eyelid movement.

Do you custom rigged your models or use a third party plugin: Advanced Skeleton or Setup Machine Lately I started trying out The Setup Machine.

05 May 2006, 03:21 AM
still alot to be desired with this character.

still ruff, nothing polished off yet.. tossed on a TSM Rig, to test shoulders alittle.
Leg joints where way off =P hence the bent shen instead of knee lol =P

I am much more happier with where this character is headed, than the previous revisions.. but like i said still much to be desired here.

the ribcage was affected by the arm rig alittle. you can see it looks strange on her left side.

cya folks... gotta wake up and go to the evil place they keep my paychecks.

05 May 2006, 02:30 AM
more progression.

05 May 2006, 01:39 AM
Stahlberg or any of the great modelers on this thread would you please critic my head.
I feel that something is wrong but I can’t put my finger on it. I must say that
I have learned a lot from all the post here. Thanks in advance

*Image removed to save space

05 May 2006, 03:05 AM
still havent hit the nail on the head with her neck, but im much more happy with the shoulder/ inner-upper torso area.. cleaning the topology and adding/adjusting details.


Stahlberg or any of the great modelers on this thread would you please critic my head.
I feel that something is wrong but I can’t put my finger on it. I must say that
I have learned a lot from all the post here. Thanks in advance

The head is very hard to get.. but your doing a good job.
Is this a male of female head?
The face is alittle thin in width.
and the cheeks are pushed very far forward.

I can tell you this, for sure.. It will take you Many, many sessions.. of modeling faces and heads before you finally get it.. This head im working on now is like the 60th one ive done since day one. :)

each time i do it they get better and better, as should yours.
Keep working on it and dont be afraid of drastic changes.

05 May 2006, 01:06 AM
Hey everyone. I wanted to take a moment and say thanks for all the amazing information and work that is in this thread... it's a awesome resource. That being said - after years of in 3D in various fashions I finally am going to break down and model my own human. Since I bore easily, I will work on a "babe" type since it will keep me interested :)

I read this thread most of the way through and I found a lot of good info about different topology philosophies and I have a lot of information about how much detail and so on. I know more than I ever thought I needed to about how many sides my polygons should have :)

What I don't have is a good, simple starting point. I looked and looked around on the web and in this forum and I want to know if this tutorial is a decent way to start on the body: (
The link might be temporarily down, but it was up earlier today. Basically it was a variation of box modeling using a cylinder style that had some nice information about managing edge loops.

What is the current thinking on box or cylinder modeling for the face and / body?

In "Stop Staring" (a book I have here) Jason Osipa recommends building the face "from scratch" using edge extrusion starting from the mouth line. Is that a preferable technique for faces?

I know I have a long way to go and I will work through lots of iterations, but I need a loose thread to start pulling from. Anyone have a bone to throw? :)

05 May 2006, 10:14 AM
Thanks very much!

05 May 2006, 05:17 PM
Kryoboy, you continue to improve that model!
Ashford_Butler, kryoboy's comments I agree with. Also, the corners of the mouth try pushing them back a bit... see if you can get hold of a view from below, upwards, to get the right cross-sectional shape.
Soulhuntre, that tutorial is an excellent start. And doing the face polygon by polygon is also a good idea. But in fact you can do it any way you like, because the truth is - it's the quickest easiest part of the whole process, and once you've done the first rough shape of a face you'll never again have to do it from scratch... unless you really want to of course. :)

05 May 2006, 01:25 PM
Well, guys heres my last post for atleast 3weeks.. I start a 7days 12 hour schedule starting tonight. But I will be back with pennys, to buy more 3d toys. *dreams about the onscreen wacom tablet*

Would still love the feedback, because theres still much to be touched.

Just for fun, Here is the original mesh before the overhauling ive done in the past 3 days.

hopefully my eyes do not decieve me, and my quality of work is improving.
her upper eyelids are in redevelopment =P

a few things i notice looking back at this image, the back of her neck and skull, needs some correction.
I would like to achive more detail in the lower body and arms aswell.

05 May 2006, 01:31 PM
kryoboy, she looks great. Her back is awesome. Any chance you could post a wire of her back? I'm working away on my own figure, and I'm really tangled up in the flow over the shoulders onto the back and shoulder blades.

05 May 2006, 09:19 PM
sure no problem.

05 May 2006, 09:47 PM
Thanks SO much. That's very helpful. Your topology is so simple compared to some of the others on this thread, and it looks so good. Maybe I've been complicating things needlessly...

05 May 2006, 10:52 PM
Stahlberg and Kryoboy I have reworked the face. I decided to go back to
the poly by poly method instead of box modeling. I box modeled the last
mesh and I felt that I lost control of the mesh. Here is an update. I am
still working on the ear. Thanks again and if there is anything else that
you can see let me know. (

05 May 2006, 12:16 PM
if you are familiar with charcole, then you can apply the tech with box modeling.. you lay out your box, then split it.. and work with low detail and create the shape of head, then split more and work more shape.. until you are happy with the proportion and shape, then you work in the details.

but, either way.. everybody prefers one method or another..

heres my crit on the head.. it wont get you there, but it should help you see whats not right.
not exactly a greate photoshop hack job, but i just scaled the face in areas, and smuged some creases out that where out of place.

05 May 2006, 12:50 AM
Just thought I'd post a bit of C&C :D


nice model progress, quite clean!

I'm not sure if its the camera angle, but it almost looks like she's cross eyed. There seems to be more of the white of her eye in the outer corner showing than in the inner corner.

Her teeth might be a bit too low inside her mouth. When she smiles, she might end up giving a more "gummy" smile than "teethy" one, if you now what I mean. When I open my mouth I can just barely tap the front surface of my upper teeth with my upper lip touching the top of my finger nail. Check to see where your teeth are in comparison to your upper lip, or for that matter anyone who will be a guinea pig for you... the more samples the better. :)

I notice in her lower belly area you have just 2 WIDE bands of polygon going from her navel down between her legs and 6 very TIGHT bands going along the inside of each leg. You might get a cleaner smoothed result if you were to have at least 4 bands instead of 2 going between her legs and 4 instead of 6 on the inside of each leg. I hope this makes sense.


Beautiful render, as usual. One thing that caught my attention was her neck. Her neck seems a bit too wide for her head size and body weight. Was this intentional? If it was then just forget the comment. :D

05 May 2006, 12:57 PM
Her neck seems a bit too wide for her head size and body weight. Was this intentional?
Umm... yes. Yes, that's right. That's it. Intentional. Yes, definitely. :P

Thanks, I'll take a closer look at that area, check some more references etc. :)


05 May 2006, 04:17 PM

If I may be so bold as to make another sugestion :D.

I have been spending a fair amount of time recently working on my "babe" head. One thing I observed was that when the upper lip intersects and curves into the the nose, it does so, generally speaking, part way into the nostril, if you look at the head from the side. You could move you girls mouth area and chin forward slightly to make this adjustment... if you want.

Again, like the neck comment, what you have isn't wrong just different.

Here's what I mean. (

05 May 2006, 11:31 AM

I have some problem at the nostril, could someone illustrate me how to arrange edge and vertex at nostril.

Thank You~

05 May 2006, 02:45 PM
I learn a lot for here. Thank you everybody!

05 May 2006, 03:03 PM
Hey super

Your edgeloops for the nostril area can vary depending on how realistic you want to get. You can do something as simple as just extruding in a few of the polygons in that area, or, search for photographic reference on the web, via Google, so you can build a more realistic nose.

I am currently trying to build a more realistic body. This is what I have for the nose so far. Hope this helps :) (

Perhaps post your nose so we can get a better idea of what you're having trouble with.

05 May 2006, 06:31 PM
Thank You~
Here is my nose... (

I want to model like this, the red line I think it need when smile, and the blue line is nose shape.
Is it right?? After tying, I found I can't handle the edge and vertex, How many edges you need? After adding a lot of edges, I confuse where is nessary and unnessary edges, and I try to keep clean topology and nice nose shape...but still unsatisfy.

Nice your guys model. Can you say something about model step, skill....etc. Or just see reference photo and split and split...

Sorry my poor English. Hope you can understand and teach me something.
Thank You very much~

05 May 2006, 06:35 PM
when the upper lip intersects and curves into the the nose, it does so, generally speaking, part way into the nostril, if you look at the head from the side
Yes I think that's true for most people. Some exceptions exist though, an example (not the best example I admit):

But mine is probably too much, especially for a caucasian, you're right.

05 May 2006, 08:15 PM
Here is the base nose shape that I started with. Its nothing new or fancy but it is a good place to begin. (

05 May 2006, 04:29 AM
I got a question out of the blue...

I was just wondering how much detail most of you (anyone reading this) actually model as opposed to texturing or displacement mapping.

I ask 'cause I'm gonna start a few new models and I was wonder how hi-res I should model. I like modeling detail more than texturing, but the mesh starts to get a little heavy when it's time to rig and pose the model.

Kinda wondering, too about details such as the tendons of the forearm that become noticeable in some positions. Is that usually modeled or could you use textures to show that detail?

Again, not too important but I'm just a little curious.


05 May 2006, 10:41 AM

A good question.
With regards to detail I think it always best to ask yourself, what is the final output ie: animation, or a still image?, also along with what are you going to actually focus on in either of the aforementioned too.

Also theres the question of what can your machine handle too if you are planning on Hi res work, obviously there'll be a point where it will grind in GL mode and at render time just say 'no thanks not enough memory...'

The idea of using displacement maps is a good one as opposed to modeling every last tendon etc but again how much do you want to see and could you get away with a simple bump map?

Sorry to anwer your question with questions, but I think that prior to modeling, questions such as these are always worth asking yourself before wasting loads of time and effort, then you'l get a satisfactory result.

Kind regards

05 May 2006, 04:04 PM
Thanks cybernaut and everyone !

Here is my try.... thanks your advice. (

05 May 2006, 06:04 PM
Thanks, Jay.

Yeah, I kinda figured as much. I kinda want to do a good posable model and wanted it fairly detailed, but I don't think I'm gonna go too high res. I'll try getting a model fairly good looking with most of the details... then I'll see how it goes doing the rest in bump or displacement mapping.

I'll post pics when I actually get some work started on it... but that could be a while.


05 May 2006, 06:05 AM
Topology: the smile wrinkle you'd get from this would start in the right place just above the nostril, but would slant too far away from the mouth. Look at old people for reference of where the wrinkles are.
There's a fold that starts near the inner corner of the eyes, running down and out at about 45 degree angle, you could try to fit to that one a little more as well. Otherwise your topology is ok, nice and even.

Shape: the profile view is off from reality, you need to use a good photo of someone in profile as a backdrop, preferrably a bald person, or combine a hairy photo overlaid with a skull or x-ray. For instance, the highest point of the skull isn't to the front, but to the back.

05 May 2006, 11:07 AM
I thought I'd just add my latest render for my female model Elissa.

(color of lips, nipples and eye makeup, and hair are done in photoshop, just to get a small idea)
Link to thread on Blenderartists:

05 May 2006, 04:06 PM
Thanks for crits, Ive worked myway down the model more and continued my revisions.
Right now, i am shaping the arm, and picking out witch muscles, i want to be visiable
also, need rework her belly button some.

05 May 2006, 05:11 PM
I thought I'd just add my latest render for my female model Elissa.
Looks great! Just the armpits I might comment on, they could be deeper, somewhat more defined.

Kryoboy, also very sexy and realistic! Just wondering about the slight crease barely visible just above the navel, running all the way around the waist.

05 May 2006, 01:53 PM
I'm having trouble replicating the imitation oren-nayar skin shader from the d'artiste character modeling book. The text reads "the Out of the Lambert to the In of the Clamp, the Out of the Clamp to the Vcoord of the Ramp, the Out of the Ramp to the diffuse of the second lambert (the shader involves two lamberts, a clamp, and a ramp.) My confusion is which Out's and which In's are being refered to here? Specific names would help me out a lot.

Can anyone give some insight to this?

05 May 2006, 07:14 PM
1. connect the 'out' of lambert 1 into the 'in' of the clamp

2.then the 'out' of the clamp to the vcoord of the ramp

3.then what the 'out' of the ramp to whatever you like into lambert2 in this case in the d'artiste book Steven says the diffuse channel then assign the 2nd lambert to your surface.

Hope this is clear

Cheers have fun

05 May 2006, 04:33 PM
Yeah what Jay said, there... if you look at the list of inputs and outputs, there's usually only one main In and one Out. That's the one I meant. :)

05 May 2006, 08:55 PM
well, after following this thread for months, and learning a ton (i hope), i'm finally posting something. C+C really, really appreciated.

05 May 2006, 06:09 PM
Man, that's one of the best topologies and models I've seen!
Maybe just the fold from the nostril down to the mouth, which I don't see here but if you try to make a blendshape out of this face you might find the fold ends up crossing an edgeloop or two, try to avoid that. (If you haven't done so yet, try making the blendshape and you'll probably see what I mean)

05 May 2006, 03:00 PM
Thanks Steven~
Here is the head I modify, and the body my first try....
After this I think it is hard to arrange the edge distribution.
But it is worth to learn more, even try again, the female body.
Thanks your advice. :) ( ( ( ( (

05 May 2006, 12:46 PM
Man, that's one of the best topologies and models I've seen!
Maybe just the fold from the nostril down to the mouth, which I don't see here but if you try to make a blendshape out of this face you might find the fold ends up crossing an edgeloop or two, try to avoid that. (If you haven't done so yet, try making the blendshape and you'll probably see what I mean)

Thanks for the positive feedback, Steven. I've really tried to learn from everyone on this thread. I think I see what you mean about the edgeloops around the mouth, that they might be too wide away from the corner of the mouth (?). I'll try a couple of facial expressions. Might take a couple of days as I haven't built the teeth yet ;)

06 June 2006, 06:54 PM
Dear thread and thanks Steven for starting it. Here's my take on modeling a virtual head. C&C welcome...


06 June 2006, 06:59 AM
super, that's a good start. The face has a pretty good topology, I can't see anything really wrong with it that jumps out at me, though you may need some more detail to create the nasojugal fold (leading down from inner corner of eye diagonally to back of jaw). But it's a subtle thing, you may not need it depending on many factors. The forehead/eyebrows area should need some more detail though.
The shape of the face is ok but the corners of the lips need more work - they should flow more into each other, not seem so separated. Also inner outline of the lips is usually more complex than that. The eyedlids seem a bit too thin.
The body: ok but the crotch seems too high.

06 June 2006, 07:02 AM
lorely3000, a very good head. From the front I see only two issues: the tightly spaced edges on the upper lip, which probably will cause wrinkling in animation, and the corners on the upper forehead, looking a bit like devil's horns. Try to use bigger polys there.
Similar problem in the sideview, at the back and top of the head a peak or corner, try to smooth that a bit more rounded.

06 June 2006, 08:07 AM
Thanks for your C&C Steven, will work on these areas and upload it once done...

06 June 2006, 09:26 AM
Hey Guys back with a small update and a lot of questions. I have started to work on the body for my character
and I wanted to know how some of you are approaching the rib cage area. I noticed in some of Stahlberg’s meshes
that the ribs show just a little bit. I also would like to know how some of your are approaching
your characters eyebrows. I have noticed that some are just using planes with an opacity map but my
question is how are you getting the eyebrows to fit the mesh and seem as if they are resting on the mesh?

Also thanks kryoboy and Stahlberg for the advice in my previous post I have made the changes
and it made the mesh look a lot better. Its funny it seems that once you get the topology
correct building a human is not as hard. (But as you can see I am not there yet)

06 June 2006, 03:41 PM
Steven, I have made some amendments to the head based on your previous C&C. Mostly on the upper lip area. Thanks.


06 June 2006, 10:55 PM
some screen caputres of the face, i have put on a ruff texture, and begun adjusting/remodeling sections of the face.

Any crits/paintovers would be great help on fine tuning.

ive made many adjustments to posture, and proportions.. Some edges in the body are kinda sharp.

Daniel Whitton
06 June 2006, 09:37 PM
Hello Steven

Been working on my face for awhile and would like you to take a look at my eye. So far I have been looking at your refenrece and reference from I can see the flow from the refence but am a little confused with the upper lid and inside/outside corners where the meet. I would like to be able to put these images up on my site to link aswell as the refences I use so it's alittle clearer,but I keep getting a 404 error. I'm not that good with websites. So I need to find out how I can link them. Anyway what do you think so far and how can I improve/ finish what I have.



06 June 2006, 05:02 AM
how some of you are approaching the rib cage area. I noticed in some of Stahlberg’s meshes
that the ribs show just a little bit.
Yes, I put some 5-sided polys there to get some added subtle bumpiness and break up the symmetry one gets so easily from using all quads.

I also would like to know how some of your are approaching
your characters eyebrows. I have noticed that some are just using planes with an opacity map but my
question is how are you getting the eyebrows to fit the mesh and seem as if they are resting on the mesh?
I simply include the eyebrow plane in the Blendshape for the whole face, and adjust it carefully taking aim against a few 'landmark' vertices and making sure the plane follows these as it deforms with the forehead.

06 June 2006, 05:18 AM
lorely3000, that's improving I think but still some tweaks can be done

06 June 2006, 05:19 AM
Kryoboy cool! but it looks like you're using shadowmaps, not raytraced shadows?

06 June 2006, 05:58 AM
Daniel that looks very good, but when it comes to fine-tuning like this I need to see the smoothed surface also, to compare. My guess is this works fine, but maybe the lid crease isn't defined sharply enough?

As for linking images, if you point your browser to your image (accessing over the net, not from a local hard disk), you should see something like http://www.... in the url bar at the top, copy paste that url into the cgtalk post.

Daniel Whitton
06 June 2006, 11:41 PM
Hey Steven

Thanks for the reply. It was on my local side. I wasn't properly updating and linking my html to my index page for it to be linked. So tricky at least for me to link an image. Anyway I think I found a way for it to work. Let me know if it doesn't display correctly.

http:// (

Thank You


06 June 2006, 12:24 AM
Well, after the longest time I got to work a little on my old model. So I´m kinda frustrated here as I don´t know what direction to take from here, still not happy with it so far. The arms and the legs below the knee are almost with very basic shapes yet, I would like to get some feedback about the resto of it. Any comments will help me a lot!

Thanks a lot!

06 June 2006, 05:39 AM
hello and many thanks to Mr. Stahlberg and who posting their model here.
i'm working on this one to improve human modeling,,,,,,
please give me your thought.

06 June 2006, 06:29 PM
A character I'm remodelling at the moment, going for a nice clean quad topology which doesn't over "sharpen" muscle areas, the mesh will be zbrushed at some point.

06 June 2006, 07:27 PM
It's hard to judge the proportions as the perspective distortion is too much, but I'd double check things like cranium size and width of the waist.

On the technical side, I'd try my best to get rid of 6-sided vertices (at the base of the deltoid muscles). I would do something with the long, thin polygons on the lower back (specially if you want to use Zbrush later).

Also, the horizontal edges on the sides of the neck are running diagonal to the actual form, at about 45 degrees - I'd redirect them. And I'd also re-think the edge flow of the entire upper torso, both the chest and the back.

06 June 2006, 04:52 AM
Daniel these are some comments I have about your test, I hope it's self explanatory

06 June 2006, 12:51 PM
I agree with yah steve.

Ok.. i started a thread for this project here.

But it does pretain to this one also so.
Here is the mesh and topology so far, I model her face after a celebrity.. Im not saying who because when someone can tell who it is, ill know that im on track.

Also is an animation of a smile to see how the topology deforms, you can download it here.
LINK to her smile animation (

06 June 2006, 11:15 AM
Hey guys, been following this thread for a while now and learnt a great deal... This is my latest work in progress, if you have any advice etcc for the topology it would be much appreciated....

06 June 2006, 10:42 AM
kryoboy that's really great. Her smile is just beautiful.
But, I can't tell you who it is, sorry... :) someone Asian, yes... but...
ok I checked your thread and I see who it is. That does look like her - but I would never have guessed, because I wasn't that familiar with her face.

MrJames, it looks like you're going for some kind of undead or monster there? Maybe show me a sketch of where you want to go with it, or some reference... as it is, this topology will let you do a lot of things, but perhaps not everything, it depends.

06 June 2006, 07:43 AM
That’s amazing how you manage to come up with such results with that number of polygon numbers.
Or perhaps you fine tune it in higher level Maya SubDiv.
I’ve not managed to read even half of the posts yet. So much to learn!
Could you please critique this head I’m working on (although it’s not a babe head)?
I tired to follow the anatomy I saw here and also the one of elf Dobby of Harry Potter which I had seen at before. But really don’t know what to do next in modeling it. Should I delete some edges?
Thank you very much indeed specially Mr. Stahlberg.

P.S MattBirkett-Smith, your website doesn’t work. It just stopped when I was in the middle of downloading your TutorialHeadCreation.pdf

07 July 2006, 06:20 AM
Hi sir,

I have been a great fan of your works ever since i saw them. I have been very anxious to correspond with you. 'One last time' the 2D as well as the 3D work is my all time favourite work.

Everytime i think of anything spectacular this is the image that comes to my mind. It is a very inspirational work. I am honoured to have seen it.

Sir, i am a beginner in maya and i am dying to work in it exclusively. I have been working in 3ds max for a while now.

being a professional, could you please give me some advice as to how do start with with maya modeling.

The model that you have created here is wonderful.

I would be grateful if you could advice me as to how do i go about to become good in maya.

thanks in advance.

07 July 2006, 01:22 PM
Male WIP. Part of an ongoing personal project.
Crits welcome.

07 July 2006, 06:39 PM
sepehr, thanks.
Should I delete some edges?
Yes I think it's a bit dense in some regions, like center of forehead and around the mouth.
Also I would recommend you to switch on shadows when rendering, it will look much better and help you see the model.
What to do next? I think the modeling is fairly finished, it's hard to know exactly what you're going for but I find no obvious things I'd want to fix. :) But the skin texturing needs more work now, I think.

antonymuse, thanks.
could you please give me some advice as to how do start with with maya modeling.
I would be grateful if you could advice me as to how do i go about to become good in maya.
It depends how much traditional art training you have, and how quickly you pick new things up. Different people start at different levels, and develop at different speeds. But for most beginners I'd say start with simple models. Since we know that humans are the hardest thing to model, closely followed by most organic things, maybe something in-organic and symmetrical and not too complex would be a good starting point - a vehicle maybe, or a weapon. Curved surfaces can be difficult too, so choose something that doesn't have too much of those. Best would be an item you can put in front of you on your table top, or have very good blueprints for.

Follow as many free tutorials as you can find - there's a whole thread full of them at the top of the Maya main forum.

Another thing I stress is artistic training - a modeler should try to get as much of that as possible. Good reference is also important, it's like the foundation of a house, if it's bad the whole thing may fall.

07 July 2006, 06:47 PM
allenatl, looks great so far! He's looking a bit stylized, I'd like to see some more sharp inward creases here and there, outward forms more rounded... some slight bumpiness, asymmetry and chaos perhaps... the sixpack is never so regular, in fact sometimes they are offset so much from left to right they look like brickwork... the bunching in the pecs is never symmetrical but more interlocking, like fingers clasped, producing a zigzaggy line down the center... unless you're going for the stylized look.
The lower abdomen is looking a bit too streaky and edgy, maybe it should be smoother (unless this guy is an alien or demon, in that case disregard).
I don't think the biceps should be hanging so low, normally you'd see the triceps from the front (although it depends a bit on how the arm is twisted, but in this case it looks fairly straight).
I love the legs. :)

07 July 2006, 07:25 PM
Hi Steven, sorry to insist but I could still use some advice for my model (posted some stills a couple of pages back). Really tryin not to be a pain in the @ss, I feel kinda stuck here! I can post those stills again so you don't have to search! Or I could drop a LINK ( !

Can't thank you enough!

07 July 2006, 07:30 PM
Thanks, Steven. You read my mind about the tricep showing. I'll work on that. Great points about the abs and pecs. Still working on only half the model in symmetry mode so both sides look the same for now but as I get further into it I'll work on offsetting some of the areas. I'll also try to soften up the lower abdomen. There's some unintentional sharpness there that I need to get rid of.

07 July 2006, 07:42 PM
Like your model. Especially the chest, rib cage, and ab area. I need to work on softening up those areas on my model and I like the subtleness in yours.

07 July 2006, 05:42 AM
sorry, I see there are two or three guys I overlooked on the last page...

LikuidSnake, your model looks very good in the parts that are most finished. Of course the feet and hands aren't finished, and there's no navel or nipples but you plan to add these later right? Basically all I can see that I'd change is the armpit, it should be deeper right behind the pec there, and a sharper crease should be reaching from there up along the deltoid.

sturmkim I can only see the first and the last images, the first one is the wireframe - to me it seems a bit too dense, it must be hard to work with? I think it could be nearly half as dense with the same or very similar result when smoothed...
The shape: the arms and especially deltoids should be a bit higher compared to the clavicles. The groove running down the sides of the abdominal muscles should not continue like this into the crotch. The V-shaped grooves that meet at the crotch run from the iliac crests (hard points of the pelvis near the hip), not from the stomach. The knee caps are a bit pinched at the bottom. The breasts don't seem round and smooth enough.

MattBirkett-Smith, I think Laa-Yosh commented yours ok, otherwise very nice! :)

07 July 2006, 06:53 AM
Thanks sir,

I will treasure this reply of your's.

Thankyou, i will follow your instructions.

07 July 2006, 05:40 PM
I see, well yeah I will add the nippels and navel later. I was pretty much more worried about the topology, tryin to figure out if it was going to work. I´ll add some close ups of the face, maybe I should correct that topolgy too. I´ll make the corrections on the armpit that you mentioned and finish the feets and the hand. Thanks for the comments man!

allenatl keep working on it, I would use the sculp geometry tool and smooth some polygons if you mean to make it a little more subtle!


07 July 2006, 09:25 PM
Just wanted to show my latest render of my female model Elissa (version 94):

Daniel Whitton
07 July 2006, 06:14 AM
Hi Steven

I've gone back to the forearm to rebuild it again. The original mesh was a little to dense and to strict on following muscles in the forearm so I decided to hack it up. I've be looking at some of your earlier models as well asmore recent ones to look at your approach. I can't find any images that focus on the back and bottom of the forearm so I was hoping you could post a few.

Dan (

Daniel Whitton
07 July 2006, 06:36 AM
Rebuilding the forearm

07 July 2006, 04:59 PM
I'm going to Singapore for a few days, see you all when I get back


Daniel Whitton
07 July 2006, 10:32 PM
Wire frame update. Remodelled most of the forearm. I'm still having issues with the elbow and her trap and deltoid.

forearm link (

07 July 2006, 02:45 PM
The front view of the forearm looks pretty good to me. For elbows and knees, I usually try
to get a general outer shape, then do some type of smaller extrusion of that shape. I still have to do some tweaking before it looks right though.

Another update, still both sides are symmetrical for now:

Daniel Whitton
07 July 2006, 08:37 PM
Another update on her forearm. Still trying to find a better solution for her elbow. I'm begining to see what I want. There is still a lot more refining to do. Any suggestions on how to improve this area Steven

Link (


Thanks for the response. Good job with your model so far. From what I see I think the thighs might be too thin around the hips and you may want to look at the proprtions on the forearm. Right now they look alittle long and thin compared to the bicep and chest.

Daniel Whitton
07 July 2006, 06:18 AM
please any feedback??? Would like to know if I'm going the right direction to finish her up soon?


07 July 2006, 08:04 AM

Looks fine mate, carry on


07 July 2006, 02:07 AM
Sorry guys I've been a bit busy lately...

wclaes - that's excellent! I'd just look more closely at the toes and ankle area - toes seem to slant back too much, ankle too thin, heels too roundish

allenatl, it's looking better! Legs may be a bit "wheel-legged", too much space between the upper thighs, ankles too stiff... have a look in this thread for some examples of male anatomy in the neutral pose -
Hardcore Modeling Challenge - Vitruvian Man (

Here's my own submission:

Daniel Whitton, that arm looks great! Except, in the top view, the area inside the elbow, on the lower arm - I think it bulges out a bit much there. Otherwise, it's damn near perfect. :)

Daniel Whitton
07 July 2006, 07:33 PM
Thanks JayEdwards

Will continue to press on with pride...

Hi Steven.

Just looked at your entry. Awesome and can't wait for a release of mudbox to play with. Sorry to bug you so much while you were up to 4 am everyday trying to finish your entry.

Thanks for replying and saying everything was good. I'll adjust the inside forearm as noted.

One thing has been bothering and troubling me on this part of the body, and thats the topology. I'm trying to clean it up a bit and keep it simple. I through up another screen shot hoping for alittle C &C.

Thanks Dan

07 July 2006, 01:07 AM
Daniel, your arm does look great.. n looks better than my own.

Steven, I was just on your site and checked out the interview (animation).. is it ok to say Wow? The Suzanne situation.. my heart went out to her. I'm sucha sap. I think you did an amazing job.
I'm wondering.. how did you go about rigging/animating the face? Today I started reading thru a thread in the character setup section here called facial animation setup, but eek is using 3dmax.. dunno what his rig looks like this year, but the start of the thread he was using lines (nurbs curves I think).. a buncha controls.
And a while ago I had downloaded a video clip on setting up/using basic controls for maya. Do you use these?

07 July 2006, 03:44 AM
"The Suzanne Situation"
LOL that's what I should call the interview! :D thanks

Face rigging? I just apply a bunch of blendshapes, the trick is to pick which ones and to shape them right, it just takes some logical thinking a bit like topology planning (it's also based on Paul Ekmans FACS research)... then I 'play' her face like a piano. :)

Daniel, yes that arm looks great, I really can't see anything I'd improve. All I can suggest is that you 'exercise' the arm, put a temp rig on it and pull it into all kinds of etreme poses to see if there's a topology problem. Sometimes they won't show up until then.

Daniel Whitton
07 July 2006, 07:25 AM
I"ll begin doing some poses to see if there are problems. I just was unhappy with my topology. I hope to flesh it out and finish it up tonight.

After I finish modeling and unwrapping I want to pose her and was looking at purchasing SetupMachine for Maya 2, I also have CGToolkits Muscle System plugin. I was wondering if you like or dislike it. How well does self paint weights work, even on non uniform topolgy? I won't be needing it for animation just for posing, but does it brake apart?

thanks Dan

07 July 2006, 06:13 PM
Got more work to do on the legs and I need to get rid of a bunch of triangles everywhere but I just wanted to post a wireframe. Also haven't gotten rid of the ugly groin gap yet. Hope to do some work on it this weekend.
Steven, the knee and the surrounding area is outstanding on your Vitruvian Man. Not sure why that part jumps out at me it just does. Great work as always.

07 July 2006, 06:26 PM
as looking at purchasing SetupMachine for Maya 2, I also have CGToolkits Muscle System plugin. I was wondering if you like or dislike it. How well does self paint weights work, even on non uniform topolgy?
I like TSM2, it doesn't break apart or anything... I haven't tried the other one. How do you like it?

allenatl, thanks.
You can have some gap in the groin, it's not completely wrong... the outside contour of the thigh seems to curve too much, and should perhaps make an angle as it joins the hip a bit lower down...
and looking in the side view, the shoulderblades stick out too far back, the back of the waist and back of upper thigh both seem too thin, maybe pull those backwards a bit. The torso is of fairly uniform thickness (on both men and women) in the sideview.

07 July 2006, 12:11 PM
oh no, did I say something wrong about your animation?

07 July 2006, 12:44 PM
I ended up detaching the skin, cut her in half, and repositioned the shoulder and arm.
Added some more edges here n there. Also separated the head from the neck.. but since I did this the proxy doesn't update any more changes that I make. I started painting weights lastnight on the head, when I opened the mouth and checked the proxy.. the proxy didn't update. Today I'm going to try to do my first blendshape.
Did this render when she was cut in half n mirrored.

07 July 2006, 01:15 PM
Divine Rain

Overall looking good, but one thing looks a little odd and thats the size of the upperarms they look a little heavy and too spaced at the armpit like its pulled away. Just a bit of a tweak should do it.


07 July 2006, 04:53 PM
DivineRAiN wrote:
oh no, did I say something wrong about your animation?
No? what makes you think that?


07 July 2006, 12:41 AM
thanks Jay, I'll try to tweak the arms n armpit a bit more.

Steven, I was having a sensitive moment this morning (it's been that kind of day)

Today I duplicated the head (including eyes).. something small to start off with. No bones or joints. Made a blendshape for both eyelids to blink. Keyframing for animation was a bit tricky at first but I found what I needed on the blendshape window. Yays, she's a blinker.
Now what I noticed is I didn't go about modeling the eye area that well.. Things are too smooth until almost the 24th frame.

the first half of the eyelid has an indentation instead of a real fold.. and the other half could probably be more defined.

07 July 2006, 09:19 PM
wclaes - that's excellent! I'd just look more closely at the toes and ankle area - toes seem to slant back too much, ankle too thin, heels too roundish

Thanks for having a look Steven. You're right, I'll look into these things!

07 July 2006, 03:39 AM
hey divine, i have tsm2.. its great but i still prefer to use a rig that has auto-clavical (on/off-blending) multijoint bicep, thigh, forearm, elbow, wrist, knee, ankle + openPSD.

u will literally need to paint less Weights, than TSM2.
shamefully, i have gotten my feet soaked in XSI 5.1 x64.
and im learning how to rig all over again =/

I just hope i can find out how to do auto-clavical(on/off) blending in XSI and ill be in the clear.

07 July 2006, 04:17 AM
Made changes to the torso and side-view legs as you suggested Steven.
Also shortened the forearm as Daniel suggested earlier.
Working on tweaking the legs.

07 July 2006, 04:34 PM

I've been working on this model to study and also to make a scene and would like suggestions and crits about it. Thanks

08 August 2006, 01:36 AM
Hi guys, is anybody at Siggy right now? I've been working on this model for a little while, and have learned a lot from the great examples in this thread. I'm about done working on the zero level cage and just wanted some feedback on my topology before I take things from Silo into ZBox/MudBrush. This will be animated eventually in Maya, so I think I'm in the right place.

08 August 2006, 12:37 PM
alancamara, Pookyjuice: Good-looking models from both of you. Pookyjuice, that head topology looks perfect to me. No crits.

08 August 2006, 10:16 PM
heey remember me ? dont think soo :rolleyes:
any way its been a long time here is my progress report
ive been practicing intensivly this week this is my fourth head in maya this time i used z brush just a little bit

08 August 2006, 09:03 PM

any critic welcome.

08 August 2006, 10:55 PM

any critic welcome.

Dude... that is looking really great! Is that all Maya or ZBrush, too? Maybe the arms look a bit short, but that might be the perspective!
I would like to see some wires of this, if this is possible!

08 August 2006, 11:30 PM
base model in maya (took me quite a while),
and some minor sculpting in zbrush.
I'm not very familiar with zbrush yet so I didn't go too high res.

08 August 2006, 03:37 AM
allenatl, looking even better. His waist is too thin to my taste, but that's just taste. His deltoids could be larger, his biceps could sag downward a bit in this pose, and the kneecaps are too rounded... minor things.

alancamera, very nice! Can't really see any 'mistakes' as such to mention... she seems to have very low muscle tone, but it's possible... upper lip too wide/mouth too far down? Depends if you're going for 'attractive' or for somebody's real likeness.

Pookyjuice, that's very good topology. Shape is excellent too, I just think the jaw/jowel has a too sharp edge along there... maybe also the corners of the mouth are too sharp?

maya-3d, the topology looks ok except you may run into troubles on the chin, but that depends on animation of course. The basic shape is very good, but the high-frequency detailing from Zbrush seems to be a bit too much like water ripples to me... maybe your brush is giving you a row of bumps instead of a solid line? Or maybe you just need to use longer smoother strokes.

SilentRage, excellent! I might even say Perfect! :)


08 August 2006, 06:31 AM
Silent Rage

Very nice, that Z pass compliments an already excellent piece of work, what type of character is it going to be or just practice?


08 August 2006, 06:39 AM
Mr.Stahlberg, thanks for the kind words, it's very flattering coming from someone like you!
I remember the days when i couldn't model a cube right, I learned a lot from your tutorials and from looking at your wireframes (among other artists').
But i'll politely decline "perfect" since i still have much room to improve.

JayEdwards: Thanks! I wanted to make something for my portfolio, so I started to model in maya, and planned to have a full character with hair, clothes, physics, all that jazz. But when i got to learning zbrush, it changed everything, so now I'm trying to finish it off with Zbrush since it's way more effecient that way.
If this is like any of my other projects it'll probably never see the light of day, but I'll certainly try because this is one of my biggest guitar hero and I need to do him justice.

08 August 2006, 10:07 AM
Excellent, well try and finish this one LOL.

Incidently is it Slash from G'n'R?


08 August 2006, 02:23 PM
Incidentally it is :p
or... it's trying to be, lol.

08 August 2006, 09:02 PM
:D thanks for your crits stahlberg about zbrush i couldent render the model with the displacment map :arteest: so i made a cage and smoothed it :twisted: this is how it looks in zbrush ...

08 August 2006, 06:48 PM
Hey guys
Heres a project that i am working on at the moment. Losts of work and details to add, but i think its coming along! Here the pics, and advice, crits ,etc would be much appreciated!!!
Main Body[have fixed stomach, look below]
Body[old body on left new one on right]:

the legs i havnt started to work on yet, so they are a lil dodgy!!

08 August 2006, 11:54 PM
Hi everyone, been watching this thread for a while... well, couple of years to be exact. Finally have something of my own to show, please let me know what you think. Trying to capture Leonard Nimoy as Spock from the original series. Still working on him, but I think I've got the topology nailed down. You'll notice that I'm cheating the brow a little bit, just to help him get that pointy look. (


08 August 2006, 04:31 AM
Hi Stahlberg,

Yes I agree. I'll fix it.

Thanks for the tips


08 August 2006, 05:52 AM
this is how it looks in zbrush ...
It does look better in ZBrush. :) But be careful with the strokes, I can still see a small tendency for them to break up, looking a little blobby, like the example A below:

B is also bad, try to make strokes fade in and out more softly, for a more organic look.
This actually goes for airbrushing in Photoshop and Painter, and real life, as well.

08 August 2006, 11:49 AM
Hello people,

Been visiting this thread for a while now and the quality of the work is is amazing. I learned a lot from the talented people here. Just looking at some of the wireframes is realy inspiring.

For the last couple of days I've been working on modeling a girl. I'm planning on doing a full body, but for now I'm focussing on just the head part. One of the things I tried to do on this one is create nice and clean topology. But I've run in to a problem, mainly the smooth version doesnt look good to me, but the wire version does OR at least better then the smooth one. I'm not going for the classic uber sexy girl but more a more natural looking beauty.

Could you guys take a look at this and give me some advice on how I can improve the form and topology? (

Keith Young
08 August 2006, 04:17 PM
blade, your topology looks fine (others may have comments), but if you hadn't seen it yet, here's another thread ( that has more about head topology.

The problems with your head have more to do with some proportions and shaping. Below is a page from an old book on drawing by Andrew Loomis..
...take particular note of your ear placement. Also note that the centerline of the eyes (top of the ear connection to skull) should be roughly half the height of your head.

08 August 2006, 06:07 PM

overall the model is looking pretty good, my only gripe for now is the bridge of the nose, its very sharp/angular, a few tweaks to soften it shouldnt take long.


Yep, as Steven has said, watch those brush strokes in Z,the focal shift should take care of that


08 August 2006, 09:28 AM
@Keith Young

Thanks for the comments and illustration. I've repositioned the ear, and made her skull larger in height. Also did some reshaping to remove some weird pinching. Unfortunatly I can't show the results yet, 'cause I'm not home at the moment. I'll post them when I get back.


Your topology looks ok to me, but I did notice a missing edge on the chin. Also, I guess what was said about my model, being to short in height. I have a feeling that you head model also is a bit short. Are you doing a Zbrush pass?

08 August 2006, 04:51 PM
Hey guys I'm on vacation in Sweden right now, with limited access... I'll be back home around end of August.


08 August 2006, 09:57 PM
Hi Stephen, have fun on your vacation! enjoy it!

Hello guys, here is the update I was talking about earlier.
[/url][url=""] (

08 August 2006, 06:34 AM
Hello, all. I'm about done tweaking the 0 level cage on this model and wanted some crits on topology before I go and and details in Mudbox. It's a model of myself that I'm animating for my reel. I want to play with a muscle system, even though I (the model) don't have a heck of a lot of definition.

08 August 2006, 12:52 PM

From what I can tell, the topology looks ok. nice and clean.perfect for a zbrush pass.

For the last coulpe of days, been busy reshaping the head again here is the result: (

08 August 2006, 11:02 AM
pookyjuice, that's a very good base model, very good topology too. I just think the hands and feet look ever so slightly off, but not enough that I could draw over it at this size to explain... it's subtle. Maybe if you had a close up?
I'm also wondering if the lower leg's too thin, but that may be on purpose.

blade84, that looks excellent now, just the mouth I'd focus on for now. (And the ear, but that's not as important as the mouth.)
The outer edge of the lips, the vermilliom, should not be obvious all the way around the mouth. It should fade into nothing near the corners. Also the philtrum (groove running from nose to center of lip) seems a bit too wide.


08 August 2006, 09:59 PM
really inspiring stuff.

Wathcing this thread for like... year or two :). I always feel the models i do are too.... high rez. Im modelling for animation and texturing so you could say its production based, but i have modeled faces and bodies much like the one in the thiread with less geoemetry and trying to get complex facial shapes is hard at best.

Still here is 2 modela i did a month ago, my concerns are on the second one. The geometry above the upper lip i know i could collapse that ring of edges but i know thats the cheeks wont have as much mass to play with. Plus there are so many things wrong, in terms of muscles and form, ie the shape of the eye is off and lips need a little filling out in fatty tissue. Im gonna be working on this model so tis a full character so any crits mentioned will more than likely be applied :).

Really loving the work i see here, keep rockin.


08 August 2006, 04:33 AM
Welcome back, Steven. I hope you enjoyed your Swedish Vacation.
The lower leg could use some fattening up, I agree. I suffer from the old smoothing shrink sometimes when I lores model to reference images.
Here are some closeups of the hands and feet. Now that I look at it, my toes could use some work.

08 August 2006, 12:58 PM
Hi guys

This is my first attempt at a model as well as using maya for the first time. I must say some of the terminology you guys use sometimes make my head spin. I've got no idea of how you are suppose to do this stuff, thus my topology is all wrong. The problem I have is that when I stare at a picture for too long, I lose all consentration and can't seen any differences or details anymore. So please tell me where I can improve, because I would like to use this model or the next version of it in an animation.

p.s. Excuse my english! ( (

09 September 2006, 11:37 AM
TurboSonix and Pookyjuice, here are overpaints, turned into gif animations, on your images, to make my comments clearer. (hope you don't mind I didn't ask first, if you do let me know)

09 September 2006, 01:07 PM
Thanx Stahlberg. Appreciate it alot!

09 September 2006, 10:21 PM
thanks, for a begginer like me all the images will be usefull.........

10 October 2006, 11:41 AM (

A head I am working on.. I'm still having some problems with the anatomy.. especially the front view. He is a chubby / somewhat overweight character.

10 October 2006, 10:05 AM
Ok, here's a paintover gif-animation, hopefully it shows what I mean when I say the 3/4 outline of the jaw-cheek-temple is off a bit, the upperlip and the neck too long and the jaw too massive. I also tweaked the skull a bit.

10 October 2006, 04:28 PM
Updated Head:

10 October 2006, 02:44 PM
hey guys, i was wondering if someone with fresh eyes could comment on this pic, as i have posted it in like 3 or 4 forums and had no response. Is there something "off" ?

The hair is temp.

10 October 2006, 08:52 PM

I'm studying topology with "Stop Staring" on my own.
The model you have now seems nice as far as I know.
To be picky, then I may add some detail on outer eye lid and forehead age lines...

Quick question, I noticed you are using silo a lot to model... Can you explain your work flow in brief ? (i.e. modeling in Silo, and UV in .. etc.. and why...)

10 October 2006, 07:37 AM
Phrenzy84 forehead seems a little high, and also the smile-wrinkle might not be possible to get sharp enough here (test it)... otherwise it looks ok in wireframe. I might be able to comment further in smooth shaded.

10 October 2006, 12:06 AM
hi all!

Phrenzy84 i'm really digging your frankenstein dude. especially how he looks in the smooth shade version. some more sharp defination could be used for this style of character in various parts. the ears & nostrils need puffing out (they look slightly paper marche-ish). also, i'd say take out some of the edge loops on the neck (IMHO).

really loving the style of it though! :buttrock:

- Somhairle

10 October 2006, 07:22 PM
Here a little contribution from me, for the wire lovers, its a cloned kid, for the story, and why he is this way, look up my project linked below, but here is his wire,

the hand is fairly dens, i did subtille detail with simple layout, (

11 November 2006, 03:51 AM
Hi Steven and people,
I have been following this thread for a while it’s really fascinating, and of course I am a long time fan of your work.
I have been working on this character for sometime, it would be great that if you could give your views.


11 November 2006, 03:27 PM
Hey Mister Stahlberg
Here is a model that i have been working off and on again for a while now, and would really like to hear what you think of my model! Crits and commets are most welcome!
bala - Looking awsome man! Very nice model!!

11 November 2006, 06:32 PM
imho these eyes lay to deep in the face. there are some other anatomical things.. maybe u should try just to finish the head and then rework anatomical details.

your work is just amazing. could u please post a wireframe focus of the head without hair?

thanks onetoe

11 November 2006, 05:59 AM
Diependaal, I see no problems with your mesh, it looks very good. Except maybe in the back view, at the ankle, some edges ending at the same height... but if it doesn't cause bumps in the geometry then fine.

bala, looking good. My only comments would be, feet seem a bit big, neck a bit long, and brow-ridge a bit pronounced (which makes it look masculine). The only topology problems I see is that curving bit on the ribcage below the breast, makes the geometry have a slight unrealistic shape right there. Maybe if you could pull those edges straight down and forward, continuing, like real ribs do, down to the edge of the ribcage?

Sheblom13, I agree about the eyes. The neck looks too thin in profile. In the side view body looks like she's falling over backwards, not really important but good if the neutral pose can be fairly realistic. She doesn't seem to have a good nasolabial fold yet, see if you can make it more clear and clean. Otherwise excellent job so far!


11 November 2006, 01:40 AM
Hi steven, and everyone. I´ve been working on a face latelly and I would really apreciatte some feedback about deformations, maybe rendering too? But mostly animation. It´s more likely face-topology. I know I have to work on the eyes though, I still don´t have eye slashes (tp?) and the eye braws are textured more like a reference than a final thing (also the "hair").

Here´s a wire
and here´s the video,

I hope it doesnt hurt that much! :D Thanks a lot!

11 November 2006, 12:01 AM
Ok, I´ve been working already on the eyes (the modelling on the face and the shaders, and composition of the eyeballs). Also work the render a little bit. I´ll have to remake all the blendshapes again, but I can still use the animation.

11 November 2006, 05:19 PM
LikuidSnake, looks very good. Topology, nothing to crit, seems like enough detail to get a good smile-wrinkle there... shape is good too. Skin shading, excellent. Just the eyes and eye brows to work on some more, as you say.

11 November 2006, 11:20 PM
Hi steven, thanks for the comment. I don´t really know how to go about eyelashes and eyebraws. I´ve tryed a method, but it only works from a middle range distance. If you take closer look, it doesn´t work well. Here´s a little update:

11 November 2006, 01:41 AM
The eyebrows and eyelashes can often be 'sprites', that is geometry with transparency maps on them. Especially useful for eyebrows - just scan someone's eyebrows you like, or take them from a fashion photo. Lashes are trickier.
But when I say the eyes, I meant your eyeballs also. Have a look at the free eyeball tutorial over at Gnomon. It's great for this.
But, this thread isn't really for that stuff, I guess it's more for topology and shape of body and face. :)


11 November 2006, 04:55 AM
I was pretty happy with the eyeballs now, I though they were pretty decent. I actually looked built them watching the gnomon tutorial that you mention. Anyway, I keep geting off topic here, I´ll work the eyes and eyelashes, I made the eyebraws with fur today they look ok. Well, I´ll be back when I get to work the body or to ask for deformation/topology issues.

Thank you very much for the sugestions and taking the time to read all this. Cheers!

11 November 2006, 01:49 AM
Steven, a quick one...what is the best way to create hair for a character? Any suggested tutorial? Thanks in advance.../lorely3000.

11 November 2006, 05:10 AM
I actually looked built them watching the gnomon tutorial that you mention.
Oh ok, oops. :) Well if you render a closeup maybe I can define better what's troubling me about them... or maybe it's not that important either.

what is the best way to create hair for a character? Any suggested tutorial?
Hair is my bane. I wish I could do stuff like long hair waving in the wind... like this...,1125223259,5.jpg
(note that blonde hair is more difficult to do this with nicely, in cg, than dark hair)

But unfortunately, not possible yet, with today's technology.
The closest we can get are with Shave&Haircut, Maya Hair, geometry hair, maybe even try Fur for short hair... Maya Hair is ok for medium length to short hair, but for really long hair, the best bet still remains the old way of doing it, with transparency mapped geometry.

11 November 2006, 04:03 PM
Thanks for the reply Steven...I tried working with Maya Hair, but having difficulty in styling to the desired look that I'm after...also it is very heavy on my pc...rendering in mental ray is really crazy or maybe my pc is just way too slow...btw, can you explain further on the approach of transparency mapped geometry? Thanks in advance.../lorely3000.

11 November 2006, 02:33 AM
im starting to get a little frustraited with this one so i need a bit of help from the experts. for the most part im shooting for realistic but slightly stylized.

11 November 2006, 02:18 AM
can you explain further on the approach of transparency mapped geometry?

you build your hair out of geometry, any way you prefer - from planes, cylinders or through box-modeling, or starting from a sphere, whatever. Though for long loose hair most people seem to use many overlapping planes.
Then you map some transparency into it, usually around the edges, to give the illusion of softness.

11 November 2006, 03:48 AM
Hi, Mr Stahlberg and everybody. This is my first post here. I'd like to show you a piece of lipsync animation I did using your old facial topology and your "Do you ever fight with your boyfriend?" sound clip. The rig is a very basic one. Here you're (click on the image to see animation): (
Since you've shown us your new topology, I'll study it soon. Thanks for your effort in this thread. I've learnt so much.

11 November 2006, 10:19 AM
Diependaal, I see no problems with your mesh, it looks very good. Except maybe in the back view, at the ankle, some edges ending at the same height... but if it doesn't cause bumps in the geometry then fine.


Yes indeed, that was an issue at first, for everyone else, make sure that when you have that, that its out of the deformation area, i got rid of slight pinshing, but that was at the side, her eis a pic of the back, all smooth luckaly.

Could have modeld it so it just fitted, but that would cause me some detail, and more efford, if you dont see it, than no problem in my opinion.

Optimized te wire, did some obvious things, in the wire there are some edges that just stopped somehwere.

well here an image of the mesh, its older one, but its what was lying around, and the difuse map thats allmsot done, subdermal, wet/spec, and bump still to go,

nevermind the mockup shading. :S (

11 November 2006, 09:31 AM
hello all,

Hope this is the write place to ask this question :

I do all my character modeling using mesh smoth (am using CPS tool) but I have a feeling that the smoothing result is not as smooth/clean as i want.. unless its perfect quad faces..

My quesion is about using Maya Subdivision.. It looks much cleaner, but am not sure if it support blend shapes without problems.

Or if there is some tips I need to apply .. like working only in level 0 ..

I need the suggestions of expert in thats.

thanks for help.

11 November 2006, 11:59 AM
My quesion is about using Maya Subdivision.. It looks much cleaner, but am not sure if it support blend shapes without problems.

Hi there, yes U can use subD-s for blendshaping, and work on the polygonal level of the object. It works OK, goes the same for skinning too.
Hope it helps

11 November 2006, 08:11 PM
hi there. I`ve been working on yhis model for ome time now and i just cant get it looks good. Could you tell me what do you think should be changed?? I think about the anatomy stuff

11 November 2006, 09:17 AM
GlenGramling, looks good but I think there's one big problem with the topology - the nasolabial fold will be difficult to model, when you do the Smile morftarget. You should have a couple edges running from just above the nostril, around the corner of the mouth, to the top of the chin, or something like that. Right now that area lacks the amount of edges you will need to define a wrinkle.

fantasizer, cool! The audio sync seems a bit off, not sure if it's my crappy connection... I think maybe the B's (and M's and P's) need to be a bit more clear. Keep up the good work!

Diependaal, Yiieech! :) Freaky thing. I like it.
The hands seem a bit thin and flat, as if modeled from a box, but maybe that's part of the character's freakishness...

Matti3d, looks great! Comments on the anatomy, ok...
Not sure if the hands are too small, or the arms too long, but there's something there that doesn't seem quite right...
Middle of chest where pecs meet abdomen, transition too sharp
Transition between pecs and deltoids a bit too sharp
Thumbs look a bit straight and squareish in cross section, this may apply to hands in general not sure.
Otherwise a very good start!

11 November 2006, 11:00 PM
Matti3d: biceps look kinda strange imho. for a buffed guy, elbow pits should be more expressed and you should work on the forearms and hands. get some bodybuilder pictures and take a look at the forearm anatomy, it helps when you have some reference pictures.
also, google for anatomy pages, get a picture of a hand, use it as a blueprint, model it, scale it and attach to the soldiers wrists. keep up!

Dipendaal: i like the model a lot! but you could still work a bit on proportions. for eg. upper arms are a bit too short, and hands (fingers mostly) are kinda longish. Downsize those fingers or hands overall and compensate on the upper arms. :thumbsup:

11 November 2006, 11:26 PM

hello Steven, i've been keeping an eye on this thread for quite a while now. since you give ppl so many tips on how to improve their works, i'm gonna go and model a chick myself. :)

btw, i saw one of your latest works (i think), called Sarah Morrison. at the moment i spotted her she reminded me of Mila Jovovich. Wouldn't she be a great model? just look at those perfect curves, those perfectly shaped lips...oh man:D

11 November 2006, 06:28 AM
Thanks for the cheer! :)
Yeah she's beautiful... amazing acting skills too, which is not always the case with good-looking people.


11 November 2006, 08:18 AM
amazing acting skills too, which is not always the case with good-looking people.

are you implying that my acting skills might be poor?? :)

11 November 2006, 07:41 AM
Steven; thanks for the input i knew there was something a miss, ive actualy reworked the entire head though, i have a wip thread here.... female figure (Nude) (

11 November 2006, 11:42 AM
That nasolabial area looks much better now.
Also check out the profile of the skull, neck, placement of the ear and jawline etc.
Compare to this gif I made for someone else:

The distance from nose to back of skull in your model doesn't seem quite long enough.

11 November 2006, 09:42 PM
thanks a million Steven that was a HUGE improvement. take a look at my Update (


11 November 2006, 01:02 PM
nice improvement on your model Glen. i've marked 2 things that i personally think you could make better. it's the scalp of the head, should be more flat according to Steven's reference pictures.
Also, there's this ridge behind at the back of the head. I know that the woman on the reference pictures doesn't seem to have the same body and head constitution, but the ridge should seem to be at the same height as middle ear. it's a big too high on your model, this would improve the distance between the nose and back of the head i believe. i've marked those ridges with red. and the blue line is the level where the ridge should be at.

11 November 2006, 11:14 AM
hey.. still here, sat down for about 4 hours and made this head from a cube.. what you think.. ruff texture to see how she will come out.

tip of nose has hard crease, and not a real texture job.. just a quick photoshop planar projections. but gives me more detail to work on.

also realize she needs alittle tuck under her lower lip.

11 November 2006, 11:33 AM
You did that in only four hours?

good stuff!

11 November 2006, 11:39 PM

could do with some comments of the pros here.

I intend to use this mesh as a base, so i'm very concerned with the topology and the general proportions. no detailing yet for the same reason.

no texture, just coloured spots.

kryboy, for four hours that is very good

11 November 2006, 12:03 AM
lukep.. your doing well..

Keep working on your shoulders, extrude that bicep out into an arm.. to help you visualize the proportions.

the roundness around the bellybutton is abit sharp.. smooth that down..


keep up the hard work.. its all worth it. modeling the human is one of the hardest things to achive.

11 November 2006, 06:28 PM
lukep.. your doing well..

Keep working on your shoulders, extrude that bicep out into an arm.. to help you visualize the proportions.

the roundness around the bellybutton is abit sharp.. smooth that down..


will modify the belly

and yes, modeling the human body is hard, especially for me who is a mechanical engineer and coder rather than an artist ;)

11 November 2006, 03:00 PM
Sorry guys but these last days I've been preparing material, and today I held a seminar, and tomorrow I'll be attending a cg conference here in KL, and then I go traveling to LA for about a week... I'll be back in touch with this thread as soon as I can, shortly after I get back from lala land. :)

11 November 2006, 09:54 PM
Hey All

Havent posted in here for a bit, so I thought I plonk this one in. Did this on and off in under a day...not quite the 4hrs by Kryoboy (speedking) :)
Still a couple of areas to tweak...


11 November 2006, 02:05 PM
topology study.
Trying to find a clean, and working basemesh that conforms to as much detail as possible


12 December 2006, 12:57 AM
so good ,useful,3Q

12 December 2006, 02:20 PM
Very good kryoboy! here's my own research on the subject, if I were to redo the topology of the back I'd do it more like the screencap I sketched over below.
This is the process I teach in my workshops: step 1, find reference that looks similar. Crop, Desaturate, raise contrast, sketch in red over it to find the major ridges and valleys. (Then if you like, try to fill in between the red lines with blue lines.) Finally, try to merge all the reference sketches to find what they all have in common.

12 December 2006, 02:22 PM
Some more sketches

12 December 2006, 02:23 PM
last two, and the final sketch

12 December 2006, 03:36 PM
Mr. Stahlberg,

It's been many years since I saw your early work (I think it was a woman put a knee on a stool), and fascinating works have never been stopped inspiring and pushing me further... As I am struggling the making part of my portfolio currently (which is "muscle flow" on humanoid figure), the tips you just shared would be huge time saver, and I want to thank you for that.

kryoboy, also I'd like to thank you too since you initiated this great sharing...

I feel like I got early holiday gift this year...


12 December 2006, 06:13 PM
Stahlberg, hello .. can u upload those images somewhere like (

because your website is blocked in UAE :(


12 December 2006, 01:49 AM
steven, great exercise! Currently in a Computer switchover.. I have some new research done from topogun.. Its amazing software.. it has given me freedom.

Heres my new workflow.

1. Maya Shape.. Who cares about topology..
2. Topogun Retopology.. Recreate a base cage conforming to your details.
3. Mudbox Resculpt.. Sculpt the details till hearts content.
4. Topogun Retopology.. Final product. Optional.. Repeat process to step 2. to help define details even more with designed topology.

I think Studying the topology of the body Will become even more of an art.
topogun software.. Its really something.

Hopefully Things will be backup here shortly.. and I can particpate abit more on the subject.

12 December 2006, 02:59 AM
Great analyzation, Stahlberg! :thumbsup:

This is my current topology, but I will change this one by refering to your new analyzing propositions.

Thank you very much!

12 December 2006, 01:13 PM
Hi Kryoboy,

So what's this topgun all about then? I've been hearing about it, but I don't know anything more, other than I understand that it's for re-topology (perhaps more).

Do you have a link where I could learn more about this?

BTW - Can you tell me what is so good about it? For example, I do this kind of work in using the snapping features in XSI, is topgun better, if so, why?

I'm interested in learning more about this.



12 December 2006, 05:40 PM
look at the last video first (practical1)

Firas, don't really feel like opening an imageshack account right now, send me your email adress and I'll send the images

12 December 2006, 07:42 PM
Hi Stahlberg...

Could you send me the images too? (

Thank you.

12 December 2006, 09:33 PM
last two, and the final sketch

Almost exactly what I'm ending up with nowadays... mind you, it's for orcs and such ;) but the underlying anatomy is the same.

12 December 2006, 11:00 PM
Round #1 Mudbox.
Its alot of images. but they are all really small filesize.
Feel free to break out that magic red pencil Steven.. It wont hurt my feelings.. This is stage 1 Ruff-in.. The funky bumps in the thigh, are there because i really havent worked on anything below them.

Need to raise the arms.. and work on underarm.. and complete lower body.. and the rest of the arms, up to the wrist.. Then I will do the same thing In mudbox but just hands.. and feet.. and attach them in a really messy manner. and then bring into topogun.. reduce the geometry by a million polys or so.. something more workable.. and make final tweaks in maya.

Then create another female head, as i want more exersice =D

12 December 2006, 11:39 PM
renpoo, I´m really interested to see how does your geometry smooth. I looks kinda cool. Also I´d like to point out (I know you´re not asking me actually) that the arm´s muscles watching from the back flow in the wrong way maybe? Here´s how I think they should flow, I could be totally wrong though.


12 December 2006, 11:44 PM
wowah totally forgot about this thread, sorry for such a long response.

Phrenzy84 forehead seems a little high, and also the smile-wrinkle might not be possible to get sharp enough here (test it)... otherwise it looks ok in wireframe. I might be able to comment further in smooth shaded.

Yeah i dont think the crease will be sharp enough, it probably would with displacement, and if i work it i probably could get some good balance.

I dont have many pics, (because im lazy) here is that head (smooth shade)with a current model WIP.

rybeck: That head was done in wings3d. I use Silo as much as i can, but mainly wings3d for most stuff.

Somhairle: Thanks the concept is by Andrew Ley, and as for the edge loops i couldnt take them out if i wanted to :), the mesh is currently being sculpted so i cannot edit the mesh in terms of adding or removing geometry. I gree the placement of edges isnt the best its kinda rushed but the detail is needed for where the model is going.

kryoboy; i use topogun to but as for the workflow, the only stage i think its best used (for diaplcements) is when you make a quick mesh, sculpt it (quickly), then use topogun, then sculpt in all the details.

If you sculpt in all the details to the nth degree then when you use topogun you only pull a fraction of that detail, and the only thing you can use is xnormal or zmapper to get normal maps or cycslice for displacements (which is like $4000)

cheers guys, wicked work.


12 December 2006, 12:48 AM
Also I´d like to point out (I know you´re not asking me actually) that the arm´s muscles watching from the back flow in the wrong way maybe? Here´s how I think they should flow, I could be totally wrong though.

I'd say both of you are wrong to some extent...

12 December 2006, 01:19 AM
kryoboy; i use topogun to but as for the workflow, the only stage i think its best used (for diaplcements) is when you make a quick mesh, sculpt it (quickly), then use topogun, then sculpt in all the details.

If you sculpt in all the details to the nth degree then when you use topogun you only pull a fraction of that detail, and the only thing you can use is xnormal or zmapper to get normal maps or cycslice for displacements (which is like $4000)

I wouldnt go as far as the Nth degree ;P But its exreamly important to mark/detail Landmark details as i have done. To "recreate" all loss detail in maya with your lean and mean topology from topogun that conforms to 99% of detail you created.. U will have to pull some creases back in.. But thats monkey work.

I could go on till this post is maxxed out on amout of characters allowed to type about some really cool advantages with maya/topogun/mudbox.

But Ill try and sum a few of them up in a few lines.

I am able to seperate mesh like legs, hands, feet, head, from torso in almost a masking fashion.. and not care about how many polygons i have to match up to get the limbs to combine with the mesh flawlessly. (In Maya Alone)

have a perfect Unified mesh with now pinching or spreading to give optimal detailing performance in mudbox.

maintain landmark details and have a unified mesh that topogun with kiss you for when creating the new Topology.

and I always hand model final details into the mesh on the 0 level.

Ill leave detailing to the nth degree for displacements.. But i think its not nessary to bother with the female body.. You can create an outstanding body without displacements that have an animation friendly polycount.

12 December 2006, 02:57 AM
Jason, you're almost more stubborn than me when I was young! :) Such dogged determination, and it's paying off for you too... every couple months or so you visibly improve.
I think the spine between the shoulderblades is sunk a bit too deep, or it's the blades that come out too far (or both?). Also, the slight fold at the lower shoulderblades is a bit too sharp. The buttocks may be too high, usually they can be just barely seen from the front, through the crotch (or if not, I personally think that's sexy so I do it anyway, so there).
Be careful about the groove down the center of the abdomen, it should stop when it reaches the breastbone, at the solar plexus.

12 December 2006, 12:50 PM
for some reason the image didnt post, anyways here it is again, smooth shaded.


edit:// still didnt upload.

12 December 2006, 03:51 AM
thanks steven.. you comments are really motivating.. I admit, Im very stubborn.. especially about getting things right yet appealing.

Thanks for the crits, this should be pretty quick adjustments.

My main concern.. Is the shoulders. The muscles that are dominate when the arms are up, share near no simulairtys with the lack of muscle difinition of the arms being folded down..

So, I had an idea of what i could do to easy my pain in developing accurate shoulder deformations..

Model her left arm in T pose, and her right arm down.. and not worry about symertics.

Cut the model in half, and create a base mesh with both arms in T pose.

and a secondary model with arms down.

Rig my final character arms in T pose.

Paint weights to maintain decent shape.

Adjust the arms with the Rig, in simular shape of the accurate arms down pose.

Duplicate the Skinned Mesh.

Use Maya's Transfer Attributes [.] with Transfer vertice (Its a really nice shrink wrap, U can alternate with average verts) to achive an organized deformation. ( You can shrink wrap just selected verts to shrink wrap another mesh )

and then make final adjustments of arms down.. Now that its shape is a near perfect match to the arms down but still with the same topology as the arms in T pose.

U can use this as a target shape

of course this means ill have to use a script to transfer the diffrences of world cords on verts into a usable blendshape. (If you have ever setup blendshapes on a skinned skeleton you will know what im talking about)

This again could be done also for the arms being held up above the head.

12 December 2006, 09:14 AM
Why not just model your character in semi-Tpose so you get good deformation both when the arms are down and level. Then just use blendshapes if you need to tweak the deformation in extreme poses such as when the arms are raised significantly.

12 December 2006, 11:57 AM
Im actually "sculpting" all my major deformations and using them as a deformer to maintain physical mass in these extreme deformations, without me having to "tweak" and go crazy on painting weights.

12 December 2006, 11:59 AM
I see. Well, I'm just a newbie so don't listen to me ;>

Keep up the good work.

12 December 2006, 12:15 PM
I try, I still need more skill to pull off what i want.. but i guess we all want to be better than we are.

12 December 2006, 03:17 AM
> LikuidSnake

Thanks for reply. Sorry for late post.

> forearm mesh structure

It is my question point which I can't understand certainly.
If possilble, could you show me a good reference for that?
I'm looking for. And for now, it is before the rebuilding process for body mesh. So it is good to plan the reconstruction. :)

12 December 2006, 06:43 PM
Yeah sure.
Here, this one look pretty solid. The hand is pretty much straight on this one (no rotation on the wrist), you would just need to figure out the direction muscles would take given the rotation you actually have in your model.

This one has some wrist rotation:

I would have love to have a back shot from this one:

This one seem to be the position of forearm´s bones when the wrist rotates:

And here´s a LINK ( that shows most of the forearm´s muscles deformation from the front. I think it´s still usefull as it shows the direction they take.

Hope it helps! cheers!

EDIT: I forgot to mention, that I have seen many model their arms without any wrist rotation (with the thumbs in a vertical direction, hands perpendicular to the "floor"). So you can model the forearm´s muscles straight and have them deformed in the right direction when you rotate the wrist. I though it was a pretty simple and correct aproach.

12 December 2006, 01:35 AM
> LikuidSnake

Thanks mate for your showing good references.
Here is the snapshot for now about forearm muscles. This is reffering to my old anatomy textbook, but it is vague (I think). Please give me time to reconsider about this issue.

About your EDIT:
I can agree with you. But my purpose for forearm is to express the line by muscle squash when twisting. So I'd like to obey your advice. Thanks. :)

And more. I'm rebuilding body mesh especially for back of torso. "Lef half body" is newer.

C&C are welcome.

12 December 2006, 03:27 PM
still sculpting in mass here no real feet or hands yet... ive already cleaned the head topology.. need to attach rest of arm.. and deform her right leg raised and knee bent.. with ankle down. :thumbsup:

12 December 2006, 04:54 PM

Superb, yes it is a great work...
Any chance to take look at wires?

12 December 2006, 12:05 AM
sure, like i said thoug, only cleaned the head.. Im scupting some deformations as guidance to my blendshapes on one side of her body.. then I will clean the topology and "unify the model" hence the legs are not really attached. and neither will the arms until I do the "Cleaning" Its nice not working about topology and just worrying about shape and proportions. Then going back creating a final mesh over the old one. Like i did for the head.

and here i have started the knee deformation scupt.. To use as a partial Wrap deformation when creating a target shape for the final rigged version.

12 December 2006, 09:46 AM
wow, really nice progress man :)

12 December 2006, 04:06 PM
I did an overpaint, it's easier for me. Hopefully my comments aren't too hard to spot.

12 December 2006, 05:14 PM
thanks steven the adjustments to the head is really great! and so are the other paintovers.. Ill definitly make these adjustments.

Im cleaning the entire mesh now in topogun.. these adjustments can be done when I complete the low res.

Ill lose some details here and there.. but Ill try and recreate the important ones in the low res version.

Kurosaki Ichigo
12 December 2006, 06:24 PM
Hello everyone,

This is my first human body, so rough critique is needed. Thanks again.

12 December 2006, 03:05 PM
Eh mr Stahlberg, first of all thank you very much that you spend so much time on commenting every thing here in the thread:) :)

i have to tell that this thread is really great but the problem is that now one starts to lose the overlook about its development and the things already asked or not. IMO it would be really great if some one could sum the most important facts (topology, polygon vs NURBS,differneces between woman/man etc. ) in a kind of tutorial or pdf or something like that and post it in the tutorial section of cgsociety...
just a suggestion...
everyone have some nice holydays :) :thumbsup:

Daniel Whitton
12 December 2006, 08:59 PM
Hello Steven

I was reading your post a few back on how you teach your students to use reference images to highlight structure and flow. I'm not happy with the elbow on my charcter so I took my references into photoshop to see if I could find what I'm missing and were it is going wrong. I'm trying to flesh out the topology around there and the tricep.

Daniel Whitton
12 December 2006, 09:02 PM

Here is what I think I found.

Thank you for your help.


12 December 2006, 09:01 AM
Your model is looking really nice, Kryoboy, can't wait to see how it'll turn out. Did you get rid of the tri's in the brows area? I think the result for the brows is fanastic, same goes for the eyes. Any more updates?

12 December 2006, 10:16 AM
hey. divine, been super busy.

but, progress has been made.. I'm about done with a complete mesh lower poly mesh.. that will be subdivided twice, shrink wrapped over the high detail version, to create a displacement..

I'm want to have a little experiment with skeleton/expression driven displacement "maps"..
Ive come up with an idea to section out key areas, and create separate displacement maps to be blended between poses along with blend shapes.

take the correctional blend shape technique, and apply separate displacement maps driven the same way using expressions and the hyper shade..

I am able to blend a section of one displacement map with another on any given target of the body. =)

example., Knee is raised.. and fine wrinkles appear near the pelvis and bending point of leg.
knee is lowered to wrinkles fade away..

the torso bends left, wrinkles appear on left side of body, and ribs become exposed on right side of body..

So in concept I am breaking it down like this..

1. mid-res model rigged..

2. Mid-res model posed to patch Hi-res deformations like knee raised, and shrink wrapped too.. for correctional blend shape targets.

3. Same mid-res correctional bend shape targets + hi res deformations.. to create individual displacement/or normal maps, for each key pose.

4. Hyper shade and super fancy node construction driven with same expressions as the correctional blend shapes to transition around 72 texture/displacement maps in junction with around 72 blend shapes(36 for each side of the body).. to output a pose based displacement map/normal map to the shader network.

It sounds crazy.. and hair pulling.. but I stumbled on how to achieve this 5 years ago for wanting to place procedural veins at target locations on a creature.. the same concept can be used to achieve the pose based displacement map network with the addition of some simple expressions.

01 January 2007, 10:00 AM
Happy New Year!! :)
May the force be with you ... :thumbsup:

> LikuidSnake
I have decided about forearm mesh by this photo from you.

I would have love to have a back shot from this one:

I love it too! :)
So I will continue to use my Miranda's forearm topology for a while.

And here is the update for my new mesh torso.
The mesh topology is simpler now. C&C are welcome.

Daniel Whitton
01 January 2007, 06:13 AM
I'm not sure if my links are showing up?

01 January 2007, 08:02 AM
I'm not sure if my links are showing up?

I can see the photos with red marking from your previous posts.
But are you not?

Daniel Whitton
01 January 2007, 06:41 PM
Thanks for the comfirmation renpoo. I was having some problems viewing my post before, but it seems it was on my end. Thank You.


01 January 2007, 06:08 AM
> Daniel

You're welcome. :)

Daniel Whitton
01 January 2007, 08:21 AM
Trying to draw a better wire based on the pohtos I'm looking at. What do you think?



01 January 2007, 03:17 PM
Daniel, your topology for the elbow looks ok, but - I think it's more important to fit it to the bent elbow rather than the straight one. The bent one has a more complex and unique shape. The straightened elbow consists mainly of a couple grooves on a basically cylindrical shape, which I think should be possible to create from many different topologies.


Daniel Whitton
01 January 2007, 10:43 PM
Thanks Steven for the advice. I grapped some photos from Female and quickly rigged my forearm for a test. What do you think?

Daniel Whitton
01 January 2007, 10:58 PM
and some more images


01 January 2007, 03:09 AM
It looks ok as I mentioned before - I'm pretty sure you can make your model work like that. The elbow is not the most difficult joint of the body, as it deforms 1-dimensionally (it only has a beginning and an end, no other alternative shapes). It's also not a joint important for sexual attraction, as the knee or hip is.

But here's a drawing that shows how I might start my research myself, if I was rebuilding elbows. A side view and front view, showing the outline, so I can place marks where the vertices must go to hold these shapes. Then you start interconnecting from here. But the best way forward after that is to experiment in the modeling app, fiddling with the topology then looking closely and critically at the smoothed surface resulting... when that looks perfect (both bent and straight) then you know the topology is perfect! :)

Daniel Whitton
01 January 2007, 08:46 AM
Hey Steven,

Thanks again. I've been looking at this elbow for a few days and I think I was looking for something more complicated than it really was.

On a side note I was hoping to take your class but it filled up fast. Do you have any plans on hosting another class at a later date. Or posting notes from your class when it is finished?


01 January 2007, 10:31 AM
Do you have any plans on hosting another class at a later date
This will be the fifth workshop I do, I'm pretty sure there will be at least one more, and probably one more after that. :)