View Full Version : LW tutorial DVD's

12 December 2003, 10:02 PM
Which is the best DVD tutorial for modeling? or just LW in general?
Is there somewhere where they have been reviewed?

Steve Warner
12 December 2003, 10:47 PM
If you're looking for video tutorials, I think you'd really benefit from Larry's Schultz's set. While I haven't viewed them mysef, I've seen Larry teach and can attest that he's both thorough and very knowledgable. There are a number of people on this forum who have firsthand knowledge of his training materials and will testify to their effectiveness. Best of all, if you order Wordware's upcoming 1001 LightWave 8.0 Tips and Tricks book, you'll receive a discount on his training materials. :)

If you're looking for actual DVDs, the Todd Grimes DVD is pretty good. It does expect you to have a basic grasp of the software, so if you're just starting out, it might be over your head.

Hope this helps!


12 December 2003, 11:20 PM
Thanx for that steve. I appreciate you taking the time to answer my question. I'm going to have to look them up.

12 December 2003, 01:32 AM
I have both and really like them. For me, I really just liked seeing the process that they go through. That's what was important to me, not really the model they were making. It's nice to see them model certain details and have them tell you why they do it a certain way.

12 December 2003, 02:13 AM
Perhaps you may be interested in this training course I just put on ebay:

Pretty good, but aimed at a total newbie which I can finally say that I am not any longer.

12 December 2003, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by 3dSnail
Which is the best DVD tutorial for modeling? or just LW in general?
Is there somewhere where they have been reviewed?

Thanks Steve.
You can check out my Introduction to Lightwave Course HERE ( . It covers a lot of ground quickly and teaches you how to model, texture, light and animate. The course comes with online support.
Wes Beckwith with Wordware publishing is taking my course and was able to get this far in 3 weeks from starting Lightwave.

Scott Cameron who runs probably the largest Lightwave Tutorial site has been taking it as well and keeping a BLOG of his progress. You can read about it here:

If youre interested in knowing what the support is like you can get onto my support forums HERE ( , just login as guest, password : guest.

If youre interested in seeing what you might expect from me I have about 4 hours of free video tutorials HERE (
If you have any questions dont hesitate to email me. :)

12 December 2003, 10:31 PM
3dSnail -

we have some extensive modeling of organic and real world objects in our 3D Garage Advanced Courseware. Head on over to 3D GARAGE ( and view the Advanced page. You can take a look at the final models created and textured in the course.

Best of luck

12 December 2003, 10:48 PM
3dSnail - I have to say Larry's courseware is in one word awesome!!! I know I am using it. We do not just promote anything here at Wordware and no Larry is NOT paying us to promote his material. I looked at a lot of training material before we decided to promote some of it. Larry’s is simply too good to not tell the community about, I am all about the LightWave community, ask any of my authors!!!

As Larry said you can view some of my work using his tutorial on CGTalk.

I have seen a lot of training material being a publisher. Do yourself a favor...get Larry's training courses!!! I have saved myself a LOT of time with it!!

Now, you can save yourself a bundle of money, let me tell you how!!

Pre-order our book LightWave 3D:1001 Tips and Tricks and not only will you save 40% off of the retail price of this book, but Larry will give you 25% off of his training material...any or ALL of it (I recommend all of it)!!! Then, if that was not enough...NewTek will give you a $50.00 Tim Buck to spend anyway you like at NewTek. Upgrade LW, buy yourself and a few friends hats, etc...

This is a heck of a deal... :thumbsup:

12 December 2003, 11:58 PM
Thanks Wes! :)
I appreciate the comments. Its really cool to see someone whos been bitten by the 3D bug able to pick it up so quickly. Ive been very impressed with how FAST youve progressed. Hopefully youll still hang around for awhile as a publisher and not run off to join a 3D carnival somewhere. :)

12 December 2003, 12:09 AM
I have gone through both Dan's "3D garage signature Courseware" and Larry's "Character Modeling" Both Larry and Dan provide excellent support.

Each instructor's method of teaching differs, yet the results are the same - you end up learning the concepts which you can then apply to your own work, rather than an instructor saying "punch this and this button." Another words, they explain what they are doing for the most part.

Dan has an uncanny ability to make what seems complicated into something you can understand. Dan also seems to be talking directly to you as if you are in a one on one situation. The whole experience is very comfortable; however, Dan does have the annoying habit of changing his mind about what he is working on and then redoing it. You wish he would just edit the video to not include thoses parts. It is really not so bad in the "signature Courseware" as it is at least during the first project of his "Advanced Courseware" which I am working on now. If the rest of the projects are like this I think I am going to take up Maya. Overall, I learned a lot.

Larry, on the other hand, Takes a different approach. Although he is talking to you while he works, the impression you get is that of spying on a master during his work. You have to follow along quickly or missout. Personally, I had to pause and rewind a lot during Larry's couse. The pace was ok though for While Dan made you contemplate your work, Larry was building momentum. It was fun watching and participating in the building of each character. Although Larry jam packed his tapes with ideas and tips, sometimes certain things he did either did not sink in at first or were kind of glossed over. After going through the course a few times though, I was able to build my own characters and in different ways. Love those splines.

12 December 2003, 01:55 AM
I'd personally suggest the 3D Garage courseware for a number of reasons.

First off, look at the quality of the videos. Dan's are very high quality output. Very sharp, very clear.

Then look at the QUALITY of the material. what is your end goal? Dan has trained many of the top artists in this industry. Dan's material is almost a must have at most all Lightwave studios. Don't believe me? ask around.

Dan is the editor of one of the only Lightwave based magazines around. His attention to detail is second to none.

Just look at the quality of the free videos, that will tell you more than enough to make your decision on.

12 December 2003, 01:59 AM
You cats need to look at Ablan's stuff.

First rate materials, first rate presentation, written by first rate professionals. Dan has sold thousands of books, guys..and for a reason. Dan's contract gets renewed constantly to produce these books because they work and they are accurate. Pros even buy them to take the shortcuts on learning all the new toys in the latest builds of LightWave.

You need to learn to do things the RIGHT WAY before you plunge into a production facility. If you get there with clunky knowledge, or knowledge from a clunky source, I should say, your lack of production experience will only compound the problem. That could lead to alot of nightmares when the clock is ticking and money is bleeding out of the FX house...and they are ALL LOOKING AT YOU for answers.

Anyway, something to think about!

12 December 2003, 02:14 AM
Originally posted by MadMax

Dan is the publisher of one of the only Lightwave based magazines around.

Hey Steve,
Speaking of attention to Dan the publisher or the editor? :)

12 December 2003, 03:27 AM
When I'm able (or ablan) I really want to get the 3D garage courseware. I have downloaded both Dan's and Larry's free materials but have also invested in Dan's Desktop series of DVD's and of course his Inside Lightwave books 6 and 7. Dan's stuff is always top notch and the quality of his new coursware is stunning to say the least. Dan said something about people trying to click on the buttons in the lightwave interface in the movies because it was so crisp, and I have to agree with that assesment. Larry's videos are a little less quality but they're fine enough.
My main reason that I would choose Dan's 3D courseware over Larry's is this. This may or may not sound like an attack but I hope Larry understands that it isn't, this is just where our opinions differ and that's fine.
Several times in the past Larry and I have butted heads about certain methods that Larry claims are either un-intuitive or frankly, just plain wrong. My main concern in getting Larry's course would be, that I don't want instruction on what someone else thinks is the best method, or even better then anothers because that's something that an individual has to work out for themselves. His training might not be at all like that, but I wouldn't know that. I'm sure Larry's course is just fine, I just prefer Dan's methods and his personable approach to learning.

12 December 2003, 04:42 AM
I've seen both Dan and Larry train.
Both do ok. But personally, I think Dan is a much better trainer. He explains things further, and is an overall better LightWave artist. More than that I think that Dan Ablan is very outgoing, and relates to students of all levels very well.

My friend just ordered the 3D Garage Courseware - I watched the discs, and not including the quality (which is outstanding) the flow and explanation is just superb. No "hum, uh, okay" dull moments. Just clear and concise -
I thought the comments on the 3D Garage website were false, but I know a few of those people personally. And after watching the courseware I agree 100% with all of them.

This is my first post on CG Talk and I've been shy to post. No matter what questions come up, certain people seem to always take over to promote their stuff and I don't mean Dan Alban. I hope this post doesn't turn into another one of those pi***g contests cause I will regret posting.

I just wanted to say that I think 3D Garage quality, content, and Dan's style and years and years of experience are unlike any other DVD or CD or video I've seen. Oh, what's cool too is that when I place my order, I get the whole thing at once - all 25 cd's, with an awsome index for great reference.

I can't wait for Dan's 3D Garage Character Courseware and LightWave 8 books. Inside LightWave 8 will be the best, as was 7, and 6 and all the others. I'm surprised he posts here too - does he sleep?

See you on the talk.... CG Talk, that is...


12 December 2003, 04:58 AM
My choice of compression settings and resolution is based on more then "fine enough" Ive been doing the online courses longer then anyone else. Ive had a lot of feedback but I feel that what I have is the best comprimise.
Recording the screen at 30 fps when doing anything on the Lightwave screen is a waste of space. All is does is pump up the file sizes without providing any benefit to the end user. The size of the files I create can actually be downloaded by someone with a dialup because theyre not huge. My Intro Course is 35 or so hours long but doesnt come on 35 CDs. That is extremely inconvenient to the end user. I can get those 35 hours onto 3 CDs at the quality on my website. Many of my students want to copy the CDs onto their hard drives. Making them copy 35 disks is unreasonable. Also those 3 CDs take up maybe 1.8 GB of space on a hard drive. That means its even to even copy the whole course to an older laptop or computer. 35CDs is what?...Something like 20 GB? Ive also seen a fair number of complaints from people that those nice big quicktime movies make their machines stop and stutter during playback. I also dont have a problem with movie files covering the WHOLE screen.
In the end my quicktime movies are "fine enough" and I dont have any of the problems I just mentioned.

So your main reason for choosing Dans courseware over mine is based on a difference of opinion. Youve mentioned that you had no problems downloading my free video tutorials and found them very helpful. Did you find anything on my free tutorials where I say anything to the effect that the methods Im demonstrating are the ONLY way to do things?

My comments on which methods are better are related to modeling characters and in particular heads. This is something Ive done for years and have taught for years. I dont make the comments I make lightly and for the most part are misinterpreted.
To restate: The methods you teach a person new to 3D and modleing heads is different then the way you model when you know what youre doing.
AGAIN: We are talking about TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE - a newbie to 3D and modeling heads and An experienced character modeler.

My experience has taught me that when teaching a student who is trying to learn a workflow, the art and anatomy of head and the tools in lightwave that the student needs to learn a method that is LOGICAL, REPEATABLE and EASY because of the complexity of what theyre trying to accomplish.

You will find that most good books on drawing, painting or sculpting will teach the same basic approach: start with the most general details and work in towards the finer details. Start with the basic proportions and the details will be built upon those. This is why drawing books typically start with a primitive shape like an oval then adds the basic proportions as center line, eye line, mouth line and nose line. This approach has proven itself over the centuries.

I use this same traditional approach when I teach students. I teach them what I have found to be methods that follow this traditional approach but can be easily repeated and remembered.
When a student becomes experienced enough they can skip many of the basic steps and jump right into it.

I dont know of any instructor that doesnt teach what they feel is the best method for their students. Im sure Dan teaches what he feels is best. I dont think youll find too many teachers who dont follow that approach. :) I can guarentee you Steve, that if you were suddenly given a task to teach some people how to model heads you would teach what you felt was the best method (The one you know best). You would probably not cover those methods you didnt know or understand very well. Ive used Lightwave since before it was Lightwave and Ive yet to see a modeling method I havent used before and undertand very well.

If its up to the individual to figure out for themselves which is best then they wouldnt need an instructor. The reality is that most students want to be shown a workflow and methods that will get them going as quickly as possible.

I cant recall every saying in any of my training materials that THIS method is the best method. I do say that its a good method to learn. In the end its too bad that your decision was based on a difference of opinion rather then taking a hard look at my courses. BTW, heres a review by a student. I dont see anywhere in the review wh he mentions having any method forced on him. :)

12 December 2003, 12:05 PM

I expected you to vehemently defend your posistion as if I've suddenly attacked you, which I really didn't. My decision to not buy your training courses is not merely based on a difference of opinion, rather, it was based on what I think I can actually learn from the instructor. It honestly comes off as you crying foul and whining a little bit. I can understand if someone was saying that your training courses suck and that nobody should buy them. But I'm just stating my view and I should be allowed to do that without you telling me why I'm wrong. I've never seen Dan do that to anyone.
As far as the quality of video, well, I can't speak for someone with a slow ass dial-up or a 450 MHZ pc that can't play a video and run LW at the same time. But for me, I'll take the higher quality video anyday. It's the same reason I want my LW box and manual, it just looks professonal and it makes me feel as if I'm working with professiona tools. It might be a mental difference but it inspires me. BTW, for some reason, it's easier for me to skip around in Dan's video then it is for me to do the same in Larry's quicktime, less of delay when I move the video slider. So whatever Dan is doing, it's working.
I don't want to get into which method works better for a newbie and an advanced user. You speak of all the users you've talked to and in your experience, and I can tell you that there are a lot more you haven't talked to. And I don't want you speaking for me. You can make all the analogies you want to drawing, but in the end it's not the same medium and it's not a good argument. Because unless you're using tracing paper in which case you're not really drawing , you can't load up background images onto your paper to keep your proportions correct. This is why you can do this in 3D modeling. I've been to art school, but thanks for the history lesson anyway.
I said already that your training courses probably don't mention what method is best, but I don't want an instructor to tell me if I ask, that some method I use is the wrong one just because they don't work that way.
So no, my decision to buy Dan's course over yours is not just because of a difference of opinion. I've seen the work on your site and probably most of the stuff you've posted publicly in the last few years since I've been using Lightwave, and I just don't think that I can learn much from you is all.

12 December 2003, 12:34 PM
I have both Larry's and Dan's courses and they're both great instructors as well as Timothy Albee, Ken Brilliant, Patrik Beck, Bill Fleming, Dave Jerrard, Peter Ratner, Paul Mickeluky(Lost Pencil), etc...


12 December 2003, 12:51 PM
Cool down, people.

This thread is supposed to be a thread about recommending something useful to a user, not an advertising fest and mud-slinging match.

What I always say is this: look at the sites offering the courseware, look at the quality of the artists who created them, and make your decision. Simple as that.

Come on guys, we’ve had way too much animosity here lately. There is no need for a fight here. If this continues I’ll have to close what could otherwise be a useful thread.

Since I'm an admin here, I'll refrain from posting my own personal recommendation, and will exercise my right to remain neutral :)

12 December 2003, 01:05 PM
Who's mud slinging?

12 December 2003, 02:51 PM
Dan and Larry are awesome guys to contribute so much knowledge to our favorite app Lightwave. They both offer great products. sounds like a nascar debate, my ford will beat the hell of your chevy, bla bla bla. end results is what is important. Lightwave is much more stronger with both these guys around andcontributing so much tips.

These guys are top notch instructors, and really will make you improve your lightwave skills, regardless of your current level.

They both have minor flaws but the end results is the same, they will improve your workflow.

Best Regards,

12 December 2003, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by hrgiger
Who's mud slinging?

I recommend going to decaff. :)

12 December 2003, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by SplineGod
I recommend going to decaff. :)

It would probably help a lot if you didn't take every mention or endorsement of Ablan's course as a personal attack, and respond as such.

12 December 2003, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by MadMax
It would probably help a lot if you didn't take every mention or endorsement of Ablan's course as a personal attack, and respond as such.

I would consider taking your own advice. I would also be interested in when Ive interpreted an endorsement of Dans anything as a personal attack?
Steves post was anything but a simple endorsement. He could have easily just talked about the one thing he has direct experience with - Dans Course. Steve has no experience with my courses or support. In that regard he is not qualified to compare them. He brought up my name and in a way where he admits COULD be interpreted as an attack.

1. Steve made comments about quality:
I explained why I use the compression level I do.

2. Steve mentioned that I endorse certain modeling methods over other modeling methods and this effected his buying decision.
I explained that I have my reasons based on my experience and from years of training. I also attempted to clarify the difference between an experienced modeler choosing a particular method vs someone just starting out.

3. The majority of Steves post had little to do with endorsing anything of Dans but rather disagreeing with things Ive posted on CGTalk and Newteks forums.

Based on this you can see how one might interpret Steves remarks as a bit on the personal side rather then a simple endorsement. :)

12 December 2003, 09:15 PM
The other big difference being is that Dan hasn't spammed me to death to buy his courses.

I've seen your free examples Larry and I've seen the quality of your work (that you've posted). Why am I not qualified to judge for myself whether or not your training would suit me?

It's not personal how I feel, but I'm going to take all these things into consideration before I invest my very hard earned money into lightwave training.

12 December 2003, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by MadMax
It would probably help a lot if you didn't take every mention or endorsement of Ablan's course as a personal attack, and respond as such.

It would also be nice if Larry didn't hijack every single thread with spam to promote his courseware. We all know you have tutorial CDs, need to stick it in our face every chance you get.

Personally I prefer Dan's teaching style because it has a much smoother flow. I'm sure many people have found Larry's tutorials useful but I'm just put off by the "...uh...uhh..." pauses and the apparent lack of preparation for some tutorials...a bit of editing would certainly be helpful, too.

As the person who created the very first set of LightWave video tutorial CDs (way back in 1996) I always thought it was important to start with a well-planned project and edit out any mistakes & fumbling so that my customers were presented with a clear & concise tutorial that is easy to follow. But admittedly, my exposure to Larry's teaching style is limited only to his live demos and the free tutorials he has offered on his site.

Additionally the "SplineGOD" thing has always annoyed me, but that's just a personal thing. No one person can be a master or "god" of anything and anyone who presents themself as such should learn a bit of humility.

Just my two cents.

P.S. No, I do not have any tutorial CDs available for newer versions of LightWave, but some new releases are planned once LW8 ships. Watch for my own spam on this site when they become available! :)

12 December 2003, 09:39 PM
Dave Warner, you rock! I bought my seat of Lightwave from you off ebay!


12 December 2003, 09:57 PM
If you are looking at starting right out knowing what is expected of a professional, it's best to tune into pro-instruction as soon as possible. I know that a lot of courses trumpet their simple techniques for newbies, but if you have professional ambitions I would steer you toward Dan's courses and books. They rock, and the have the guys who are in the business showing you how it's done.

Dave Adams
I,ROBOT/Digital Domain

12 December 2003, 09:58 PM
Running a forum seems to be a vicious buisiness. So many users and opinions makes quite a loud BOOM!

The problem isn't with the instruction of our lightwave gurus. Its with their prices.

I doubt anyone says squat if both Dan and Larry bite the bullet and say, what the hell, 50% off everything.

Then, instead of $1200, we could learn with both of their courses for $600. With the money saved we could also pick up gems like Todd Grimes course, Carnera 3D Pirate DVD, Timothy Albees Essential Lightwave 7.5, and Ken Brilliant's Building A Digital Human / Dinosaurs (Ken Brilliant also mentioned in the Zbrush forum he might be producing videos of his own, so more goodies are always on the way.)

I mean, c'mon! The next generation of CPUs and video boards are about to hit the market. Not to mention those ruthless turkeys at Newtek demanding $500 for our next upgrade.

We need our depreciated dollar to go further.

So, in short:

Lightwave teachers, please have mercy. Lower your prices in these hard times :) Maybe then we'll be less likely to chew out each others throats!

12 December 2003, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by ravioli_rancher
I mean, c'mon! The next generation of CPUs and video boards are about to hit the market. Not to mention those ruthless turkeys at Newtek demanding $500 for our next upgrade.

Umm, thats called business. You don't think in these "hard times" Newtek doesn't need all the money it can get to stay alive? Well, they do, as does every other small business in America.

12 December 2003, 10:26 PM
Look here, taco bell samuri, I'm trying to get a good deal on quality lightwave tutorials. I'm simply itemizing my expenses in hopes of a encouraging a massive, crazy appliance salesman on late night infomercials type discount. Buy now and SAVE SAVE SAVE!

Perhaps you can get a small business advocate discount. Or an "Umm, thats called business" sticker.

Chuck Baker
12 December 2003, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by ravioli_rancher

I mean, c'mon! The next generation of CPUs and video boards are about to hit the market. Not to mention those ruthless turkeys at Newtek demanding $500 for our next upgrade.

LOL! Gotta love those priorities, not to mention the mental picture of an oxymoron come to life - "ruthless turkeys"! Where's an audio file from a turkey farm when you need one? Please imagine I placed one here! ;)

Chuck Baker
12 December 2003, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by VWTornado
Umm, thats called business. You don't think in these "hard times" Newtek doesn't need all the money it can get to stay alive? Well, they do, as does every other small business in America.

I think he understands business. The whole post seemed to me to be just good-natured tongue-in-cheek teasing, with a little "let's see if we can get that discount" business horse-sense thrown in. ;)

Chuck Baker
12 December 2003, 10:41 PM
Originally posted by ravioli_rancher
Look here, taco bell samuri,

That avatar is a cat, not a chihuahua...I think. I left my regular glasses at home today and am stuck using an old pair.... :)

12 December 2003, 10:57 PM
I worship Satan, and eat newborn kittens.

I let slugs crawl along babies foreheads, and put worms in their diapers.

I throw spoiled spam at old woman and tell old men nobody loves them.

I also pay $0.99 instead of $1.

And only the latter makes me truly evil.

Forgive my sins oh CGTalkers!

12 December 2003, 01:29 AM
I'm worse: I just lurk and enjoy the mudslinging!!!!!

A little hubris, fellas....

I think the proper response to any of this is that there is something to learn from every source: Books, video, online, etc...

The key to any good artist is to think that there is room to improve, not that you are the best......

But for the sheer entertainment purposes, let the mud fly!!!


12 December 2003, 01:36 AM
Originally posted by SplineGod
I would consider taking your own advice. I would also be interested in when Ive interpreted an endorsement of Dans anything as a personal attack?


You jumped all over me for a simple typing error. I didn't even mention you. But as usual, you get hyper defensive and attack anyone who posts favorably towards Dan.

Maybe you need to check your own track record, it isn't so good. In a previous thread I said between the two programs, I thought Dan's was better, and you and your little hairy buddy jumped all over me, name calling and making accusations that I had a personal agenda.

My "agenda" as you called it, was my personal opinion.

Did you ever bother to ask why I thought Dan's material was better? No. Instead of acting with any level of professionalism, you resort to name calling and insults.

Wanna know why I said Dan's is better?

1. the quality of your videos is awful. But that was your decision to make.

2. It is very distracing to hear "UH" and "UHM" every third word. It often sounds like you are lost.

3. The quality of the projects you use is very lacking. Dan's 4 part wheel freebie is a very good indication of what he sells, it is easy for even a newbie to follow and they can see professional looking results quickly.

In contrast, your Spline tutorial on a lizard head looks awful. Sorry, it's just very basic splines and not nearly as good as other tutorials I have seen.

The flexing arm you did?, there was one posted here that was infintely better quality.

That Retro Spaceship is a doughy, blobby looking thing, and not very professional looking. It doesn't give a sense of "Hey, look what you can do with Lightwave!" Not everyone wants to model someting that looks like Fisher Price toys.

Your Smoothing error tutorial is just plain awful. First off the method you used is a confusing mess. It's obvious from looking that you don't plan your videos very well. You weld points, then realize oops, I welded a bunch of points together that shouldn't have been welded. Numerous 1 point polys were obvious in the scene.

Compare that to Videos from Desktop Images which are well polished productions. Or Gnomon for Maya users. Or Dan's.

4. I have asked before how many of your students have gone on to major studios? The only answer I have gotten from you is name calling and personal insults.

It is a reasonable expectation that some evidence be shown that your instruction is good enough to carry you into the workplace ready to hit the ground running. Quite a few of the people that have responded in favor of Ablan work at places like Digital Domain, Zoic, Sony and other top studios. Where are yours?

It is a fair and reasonable question Larry. Have ANY of your students become pros, or do they just hang out in forums?

These are not and were not personal attacks. If I posted something that sucks, I expect to hear honesty when I ask for an opinion, not blow smoke up my ass. Likewise if someone asks for an opinion on whose course is better, you are just going to have to live with the fact that not everyone thinks you are a GOD. Opinions posted might just favor someone else.

If you expect someone to shell out a lot of money for your material, expect to get hard questions.

Behaving like a spoiled child is going to catch up with you eventually.

12 December 2003, 02:34 AM
The leaves rustled gently in the breeze. The crickets chirpped their soft song, the all sound STOPPED!

Dead silence.

It's coming.

Oh God, it's coming.:D

12 December 2003, 02:41 AM
*dodges the bullets*

Move along people. Nothing to see over here...