View Full Version : @all: Leigh (and many other 3D-Artists) will never use procedurals...

06 June 2002, 11:50 AM
I mean, Leigh takes the time to do such a detailled workshop about painted textures and she did explain very clearly and more than one times, why she (and me too, for example) always!! will prefer the painted ones...

Two very different teams, I think, 'procedural freaks' versus 'painted texturers', both will always swear on their technique, they never will come together, no way...

Greetings from Switzerland

Peter 'Montparnasse' Wild

06 June 2002, 04:52 PM
actually if you read the thread there are many of us that use both together all the time.

Joel Hooks
06 June 2002, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by Montparnasse

Two very different teams, I think, 'procedural freaks' versus 'painted texturers', both will always swear on their technique, they never will come together, no way...

I am fairly positive the conversation boiled down to her "procedurals are bad and only for noobs" (paraphrased ;) ) that got people stirred up. You'd have to be a fool to discount either technique as valid.

06 June 2002, 11:55 PM
Procedurals are good, providing you know how and where to use them..

Take a friend of mines work -

He works in LW, and uses lw's procedural textures a treat. In fact, I can`t remember the last time he used an image map :)

06 June 2002, 06:48 AM
I think he used one on this one, otherwise he wouldbe the best procedural texture artist in the world, but he isn't. Those aren't bad but they show many of the flaws of procedurals that Leigh mentioned. THey are too rendom, menaing they aren't logical, they definitely aren't photoreal by anymeans either, but they are nice and they do work for what they are. Remember she was talking about doing photoreal texturing, so if you want to show off some great procedural work, make sure it fits under that category.

06 June 2002, 03:24 AM
I think Leigh probably works for DVGarage :D

Though they make her case for her about textures being the way to go...

06 June 2002, 06:40 AM
I'm sure the guys at DVgarage used procedural while working at ILM, and probably still do. I mean look at SW2, they definitely used a lot of procedurals there along with Texture maps.

06 June 2002, 09:12 AM
Heheheheh funny thread :p Thanks Montparnasse :)
And no I don't work at DVGarage :p

Actually, yeah this whole debacle really pisses me off. I'm SOOO sick of people complaining about it and still trying to get comments in, that I'm considering closing the Texture Workshop 1 thread.

I KNOW that procs are useful. And hell, of course I also use them - but I only use them WITH image maps, and I use them BECAUSE I know EXACTLY what each aspect of texturing is and how it works.
And yes of course ILM and all that use them - but as I explained to these people, those are written especially for the projects. It's not like an ILM artist clicks Fractal Noise, and voila! They have very specialised procedurals and shaders (which I think a lot of peopple got confused about as well).

Shaders ARE NOT procedurals. Aaaaarrrrgghhhh....

But as I've said before (again and again and again and again), the best results generally come from a healthy combination of images and procs. And the procs must be used correctly - that means controlling them with alpha layers/grunge maps. That controls their randomness.

Like I said - I stressed people who are wanting to learn how to texture properly, should use them alone, and learn how surface attributes work by painting them themselves.
Most absolute newbies use them because their results are instant. But it doesn't mean that they are learning how the different attributes work. And that was my whole point. When newbies use them, you can SEE that they are procedurals. Hell, I can even identify all the settings they used. But that can be excused, because they are newbies. And eventually, one hopes, newbies will want to create better textures, and like I've said, what better way to learn and understand, than to create them yourself?

Then there comes a time when you have a good, clear understanding of all this stuff, and then you can begin using procedurals along with your images. Because then you understand what they are doing, and have hopefully developed an understanding and knowledge of how to control procs so that they enhance your textures. And even then, they should still be used very carefully, and with a lot of thought, so that they work the way they should.

Basically, what it comes down to, is that I hate seeing a lovely model with Fractal Noise (with all the default settings) being used in the colour channel. Bleecchhhh.

Of course we all have our preferred methods, but in order to really produce the best work we can, we need to explore all our options, and find the best combinations that produce the most spectacular results!

Heheheh well thanks for letting me vent all that steam ;)

06 June 2002, 09:27 AM
about closing the thread, couldn't you just create a thread with al three current workshops in text form without all the other posts and such, and then delete the threads. the workshops themselves are very very useful.

As for the issue of Procedurals and shaders.... I'm going to avoid this one this time, I have talked to two different developers of procedural packages, and they have said the same basic thing, but I won't bring it up here as we need to get over the issue, and let leigh get her rest and work done (rest whats that eh?)

Anyways again as leigh has entioned, and many of us in the original thread have numerous times, the best is to know how to use them both, and know which is best for when and where.


06 June 2002, 10:13 AM
Ummm well actually I don't want to delete the threads because there is a hell of a lot of really interesting information scattered throughout them...
And because each of them is downloadeable, I won't merge them into one big thread until they are all finished (and there are going to be about 10 to 12 of them.... I really do need to write Part 4 soon :surprised ....)

06 June 2002, 09:46 PM
Leigh, I should prolly post this in one of your workshop threads but since i'm in this one...

I am an almost absolute newbie in 3d (already fooled around with 3ds R3, max 1 thru 3 on a curiosity trip a few years ago but really didn't grasp the power then... i'm so mad at myself for that).

anyway I just wanted to say thanx for opening (a whole lot) my eyes about surfacing and interactions (and even background prior to surfacing). Funny now i keep staring at stuff to try and break it down into properties and people are looking at me weird every now and then :surprised.
I guess if i use procedurals then people will stop thinking i'm weird. is that a good use of them ? just kidding (you knew that right ?)

well anyway, thanx again for the incredible work and detail you've already put out there ! I'll try to make good use of it.
:love: :bowdown: :xtreme:

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