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ukyo
11-01-2003, 08:46 PM
hello everybody, im very excited about this new forum. in fact im really enjoying the serious attitudes in this and in focused critiques

i am currently working on my semester project. which is an animation of the fall of lucifer. but along while i was doing this i had some sketches i wanted to bring to life of fallen anegls some before they were clipped some after they lost thier wings.

so here is the first one of two its is the after shot of a fallen angel.

http://www.ukyo3d.com/cgtalk/cgpose_main1.jpg

ukyo
11-01-2003, 08:47 PM
i apologize if i am breaking forum rules if i am please let me know and kill this post

dpvtank
11-02-2003, 12:43 AM
I believe it's all cool

the angel looks quite "hulky"

aren't they supposed to be soft, and smooth and stuff?

ukyo
11-02-2003, 05:46 AM
maybe maybe not, ive never really seen one so i went with what i thought they should be. the perfection of fucntion a creture whose sole purpose is to carry out the will of god wether its to crush a horde of infidels or delivery a meesage or stay the hand of man.

eh
11-02-2003, 05:52 PM
hmmmm i think that a lot more hatred and anger could be show through facial expression of lucifer... this is a man whos just been cast out away from the person whom he loved too much... and hes pissed (if not insane with rage) and the fall probably was a long one and think of that episode of the simpsons when homer fell down that cliff well yah i think that it wasnt a straight drop for this guy either so some cuts and bruises might also help.. but back to facial expressions theres a great book which was refered to by bay raitt on his website its called The Artist's Complete Guide to FACIAL EXPRESSION by gary faigin.. check it out..

ps. oh yah i remember a scene from the devils advocate after keanu shoots himself, pacino gets pretty pissed and i think the expression on his face was pretty close to the one you're trying to convey so rent the dvd if you have the time its right in the end...

Drakaran
11-02-2003, 07:54 PM
I agree with da_maxx about expression. I would also say that you need to do some post processing to pull away that CG look it has now and make it look more like a painting... I'd say his expression currently almost looks hopefull, and for this work, the angel may have felt that breifly, so you might want to think more about the feelings later when he realized there would be no rescue. Him clutching the feathers is a nice touch. there is just some techical issues that are distracting from the message you are giving is all. Nice work! I've been watching your thread on focused and glad to see it here as well. *smile*

packjazz
11-03-2003, 04:44 PM
This image has great potential to tell a powerful story.

Darakan is right, it would look better with more of a 'painted' feel ala Michelangelo or other Renaissance depictions of angels, as that seems to be your inspiration for the angel figure himself.

One thing that might add a little more complexity and emotion to the scene would be a tattered robe or garment strewn percariously over his body along with bodily wounds (aside from the wing stump) as if to show a forceful or violent "falling" from grace. Also more feathers strewn about would give it a more chaotic feel or maybe even the remains of a severed wing laying beside him, though that may be too graphic.

Also, one hand reaching much higher than the other, as if not only grabbing for feathers, but truly 'reaching out' to try to grasp at the last remaining rays of light as if it were a rope that he could use to climb his way back up. In other words, more body expression to go along with the facial expressions mentioned by others above. Think overeggageration, like a mime, in order to give it the emotional impact you want.

Hopefully those ideas helped out. Good luck!

ukyo
11-04-2003, 10:31 PM
thanks for all the suggestions guys , that face book is really good as well. nice tip. i knew this forum would kickass. i am trying to shy away from angry though pacino exspression is awesome. i want to EVOKE an emotion resposne of pain and loss.that intial hurt so baad u dont know how u can carry on. the angry will come later but now i want that hurt thats more than one can bare.

thanks packjazz, in the animation he does have a loin cloth so it wouldnt be that much harder to just add it in here and the tatered look could imply a lot as well. ill play wiht adding some abrasions also. my original sketches actually evolve from him actually clutching the removed wing stumps then that changed to them layning on the grond with him slumped over them. but i thought in 3d it might be more graphic than neccesary, so cleaned it up to him clutching what little he could have left of his glory. i also tried it with more feathers but it just felt cluttered. i

im defiantly gonna have to reduce the intensity of the light and its comming out to red to much photoshop tweaking i think. i really like the idea of him reaching up grasping for heaven. i am also working up sketches for the background enviorment.

thanks for the kind words drakaran, and thanks all for the advice so far i hope to have a nice update for u guys in a few. damn homework alsways getting in the way.

Emmortal1
11-04-2003, 11:38 PM
I agree with the above, however would like to add something as well. At the time of Lucifers casting out from Heaven, he was already attempting to stage a war with God. Thus really disconnecting him from any love or good feelings he might have previously had. I think the expression you have on his face is more or less one of disbelief and angst at loosing something close and dear to oneself. I would tend to think that the look on his face after God cast him down from heaven would be more along the lines of pure hate incarnated in human flesh. Imagine if someone were to murder one of your parents, after getting over the pain and anguish you would probably hate that person with every ounce of your soul. That would be the look I would go for.

Emmortal

ukyo
11-05-2003, 06:16 PM
ok heres my concept sketch, (its drawn on a waccom tablet too which i think is kinda neat). so i think i need to clarify a point or two. my animation will be about lucifer. but i like how my model came out so much i wanted to make a few stills out of it that would be independent of the animatioin. so the still im creating are a sepreat entity of the animation in that they are a fallen angel just not THE fallen angel.

i say this so i am free to explore the emotions of loss and pain with out having to deal with the hatered and rage that lucifer would be feeling. de_maxx u r right i was thinking about it and if this is lucifer he should be pretty pissed off but i am already exploring that emotion in my animatioin i wanted to explore pain and loss here.

anyways heres the sketch
http://www.ukyo3d.com/fallen%20copy.jpg

packjazz
11-06-2003, 01:33 AM
I really like the mood you set with that sketch...very isolated and lonely, I feel his sorrow. Translating that into a 3D visualization will be the challenging part. Good luck and I'll be keeping an eye on this thread.

ndat
11-06-2003, 06:28 AM
Remeber it wasnt just Lucifer that fell, more than half of the angels in heaven at that point fell as well. And as for his facial expresion, I would have it as an optimistic smile. It would be very stark to see all of the other fallen in dispair and Lucifer smiling. Remeber that epic quote "Its better to rule in hell, than to serve in heaven." Lucifer was very optimistic about winning the war, he knew though he couldnt fight it head on agian, god was too powerfull. So he had to use differnt tactics, but he was far from giving up... He also fell by a lake of fire, it might help to give the enviroment more visual intereast.

most of the info is from a really great epic poem about the old testiment, the author and name escapes me at this point though.

btw that concept sketch kicks major ass, I think it portrays alot of the emotion you were missing from the model. Although I have to disagree with his emotion being despair and sadness, maybe hatered but it wouldnt show on his face. He is a leader therfore he cant show that weakness...

ukyo
11-06-2003, 06:34 AM
thanx i think im gonna try a differnt pose and try and get it closer to the sketch im also gonna trry the suggestion of him reaching up trying to hold on to the lost light of heaven.

i believe u are refering to paradise lost by milton. great story, but allow me to retort with this. have u ever did something that at the time u thought was a great idea. maybe u broke up with somebody or quit a job or droped a class only to realize after it had been done it was the worst descion. it is said that the only hell there is is knowing the glory of god and having known that light to be exiled from its presecne. and in that moment in that instant of emotinal lucidity lucifer realizes his own folly. he realizes that now for him he has lost the light of God that he will never again know that all embracing love and that is why he mourns. because in his egotistical ignorance he has condemed himself to hell

urgaffel
11-07-2003, 03:21 AM
Just felt I should chime in here... Before you start focusing on the faical expression, you need to have a strong pose. The facial expression is just icing on the cake. A good pose can tell as much, if not more about the characters feelings and thoughts than a facial expression. Something to remember :)

Jezus31st
11-07-2003, 09:34 PM
i think that with what you are trying to convey, the pose in you're first rendering is the better of the 2.

the way he's clutching his feather's in disbelief and looking up for the last glimmer of light is a great concept.

kind of like jesus asking god why he has forsaken him and allowed him to be crucified on the cross.

i assume when people have conversations with god, they look towards the sky. your angel is asking god why it has come to this, and for that one instant wondering if he can find redemption.

your original concept has a more powerful pose. the second rendering has more of a self-loathing feel.

i would suggest changing the camera angle on the first pose so that you are looking down on the angel. a 3 quarter birds eye view. you can then focus on the facial expression to convey the message.

edit*
as the viewer, i dont like beeing on equal footing with your angel. its like the view from one of the angel's minions. i would rather be looking down on him standing by god's side, or even looking down into hell from my footing here on the mortal realm.

Agent 47
11-14-2003, 06:58 PM
uyko, my man.

I'm at work, so I don't have time to read all of these posts, so forgive any repetition in my opinions.

I agree with an earlier post about being on a higher ground than the fallen one. it will significantly intensify the drama of the scene.

Also, I would add a bit more to the remains of the wings. To convey to the viewer that this fellow is, in fact a fallen angel (without actually telling them or having them read a title) it would be best to either have only partially-severed wings, with a few feathers still attanced, or have the wings laying next to him on the ground. A few blood stained feathers and smears of blood on his hands and body would also increase the desparity of the whole situation.

I would also communicate a bit of why he has fallen as well. Make his eyes ominous. Show evil. Show hate. If you just show a plain old angel on the ground with his wings cut off, people could think anything. Maybe he hit a tree? Maybe he ran into a plane?

I like your pics of the angel with black hair and black eyes. That is fantastic. Slap an evil grin or snarl on his face with those eyes, and that will explain a ton to the viewer visually.

Anyhow, in a nutshell, I would try to explain everything visually. Basically, think of a visitor in a gallery seeing your picture with no commentary. Try to get every aspect of the image across without having to say a word.

All in all, it is a great model and a fantastic idea! I really dig it. You have done fantastic work so far and I cannot wait to see the final product.

Talk soon,

BMunchausen
11-14-2003, 11:23 PM
Of course all this is subjective, as indicated by all the different opinions of what an angel "supposed to look like" :)
But....I agree with the need for a stronger pose, stronger silhouette, something that communicates the emotion before you even get to the face.

Something about his coloring bothers me too....it's verging on bubblegum pink. Maybe he just needs another texturing pass, but his skin looks kinda like pinkish clay to me right now.

I think at this stage of the story, you're going the right way by making him more like an attractive human-like character instead of a monster - and I agree with the idea that the highest level angels WOULD be built to wreak major havoc! haha
Threatening, powerful....

Good work...

ukyo
11-15-2003, 02:01 AM
i havent had a chance to post here in a couple of days but i wanted to let u all know that i really apreciate ur comments, and i am working diligently to produce a new set of images to show you. there have been a lot of good thoughts shared here i thank you all. the animation portion of this project has me a little boged down right now, but im hoping to post new stuff within the next couple of days

manfriday
12-04-2003, 03:58 PM
I think folks have the idea of his emotions wrong.
Wars are not fought against people we love.
The war in heaven was supposed to have occured becuase Lucifer wanted to elevate himself above God, and he got 1/3 of the angels to fight along with him in an effort to over throw God.
I mean, assuming you are taking a biblical approach to the character of lucifer I dont think he would be sad. I dont think his face would show an expression of anguish but one of outright HATE and RAGE.

I see him more clutching his bloodied feathers in a rage, and screaming in fury up at the sky.

MKane
12-12-2003, 02:45 AM
I gotta jump in on this one.

The best story of the fall of lucifer, IMHO, is Milton's.

After he falls, lucifer spends ten days burning, then lifts himself back up full of rage. His anger spearads though to all the demons in hell. Blah blah blah....it culminates with lucifer standing above the millions of fallen demons screaming WAR!!! and the demons all draw their flaming sword to form a sea of flame and anger.

Now thats good stuff! John Milton's Paradise Lost, at your local library, I highly recommend it for anyone who wants to portray Demon's anger.

clockwerkz
12-17-2003, 03:04 PM
Ukyo isn't looking for a way to interpret Lucifer's fall from Heaven, he pretty much has his idea already. I think he's looking for ideas on how to communicate this. Scroll up.. he mentioned Milton's Paradise Lost.

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