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royterr
07-04-2011, 11:01 PM
finally a notorious source in the industry points out the stone age MR integration in Maya (wich is its MAIN RENDERER )
this has become Maya's great handicap,its holding Maya back in the race and the the 2012 version is a total deception for rendering artist (not to mention 2011,2010,2009,2008.......)

http://www.3dworldmag.com/2011/06/28/maya-2012-review/6/

berniebernie
07-05-2011, 11:04 AM
I'd answer but I've got memory leaks everywhere.

I don't know, it does take a lot of skill to master the fine intricacies of MR (also know as cluster****s) but it's still a pretty good animation raytracer. There are tools which automate tedious tasks like http://www.core-cg.com/

There's a lot of other engines available, which is great. Now why MR is bundled for free with all these apps, that's the real curiosity. I asked once at a Renderman/Pixar conf whether they would one day offer bundles, but got no real reply.

Also, where does MayaMR fall behind 3DsMR and XSI MR ? (okay in 2012 apparently creating passes crashes maya, heh, what kind of fools move to the newest version of maya without waiting at least a year for all the fixes)

djx
07-05-2011, 11:38 AM
what kind of fools move to the newest version of maya without waiting at least a year for all the fixesExcept that 2012 was meant to be all the fixes wasn't it? ;)

David

royterr
07-05-2011, 11:40 AM
Also, where does MayaMR fall behind 3DsMR and XSI MR ? (okay in 2012 apparently creating passes crashes maya, heh, what kind of fools move to the newest version of maya without waiting at least a year for all the fixes)

render passes bugs is just the tip of the iceberg.

the whole integration is broken, when MR options override maya in certain shaders/situations, the maya options dont get grayed out and thats everywhere.

the light nodes are confusing in mr4maya, u start with a maya light then add a mr shader and start tweaking options every where, and plugging/unplugging theses diffrent mr light shaders for different maya lights specially for maya/mr area lights....

set up time or (shader/lights/render) takes a lot of time compared to max/xsi, and producers/art directors dont like this at all.

the color management system is still broken (color swatches dont get gamma corrected for no reason at all) in max its just one click and this was done 3 years ago

2d motion blur doesnt work with particles (crash) and 3d motion blur doesnt work with moving fluids.

Certain shaders available in max/xsi just arent in maya like the essential glare shader.

mia_materials can get unstable and present weird shadows and FG artifacts when you duplicate them in the hypershade.

alot of workflow bugs, u cant use this with that or that with this just try to use scanline with fur, displacement and motion blur in a medium scene (mr4maya will become unstable) or just try to use a mia_material with AO color bleed with an area light (mr shader) and welcome to artifact world. I could go one for a while...

Eshta
07-05-2011, 01:13 PM
You can use Vray if you really dont like mental ray

neuk
07-05-2011, 01:23 PM
yes we will :)

royterr
07-05-2011, 01:33 PM
You can use Vray if you really dont like mental ray

Out of subject - Hors sujet.

Bitter
07-05-2011, 04:43 PM
This has been a topic of conversation even more since Nvidia took the reigns.

I think most of us are hoping that the advancements that are going to be made with Nvidia's help will also receive that extra clout to move Autodesk towards better integration. (And by "move" I mean "step on".)

RagingBull
07-05-2011, 05:05 PM
MC is really the saviour I believe for the MR render engine in Maya.
The MR renderer itself is VERY good, the problem is down to autodesk in my estimation, so it's not an attack but thats the weakest link in the chain that I can see (please say so if it's not).

I've said this elsewhere, so apologies for repeating myself but I moved to Vray because it gets updated frequently and the team behind it are active on the forum.
Now that's not to say Mental Images aren't active, they clearly are but they are suffocated by releases of hotfixes/service packs/yearly updates for things to get implicated and fixed.
I don't know about the standalone versions though, as I've not had the pleasure of using it.

So check out Mental Core :thumbsup:

Kev3D
07-06-2011, 07:32 AM
What's MC?

As far as I can tell, this isn't really unique to Mental Ray in Maya, the program has convoluted and unintuitive ways for doing a lot of things. Almost impossible to do something with particles quickly and easily for example.

ytsejam1976
07-06-2011, 07:59 AM
MC i think is "mental core" that is the only real and good integration and pass system usable usefull and seriously i seen ever, in side Maya..

SebKaine
07-06-2011, 08:23 AM
MC i think is "mental core" that is the only real and good integration and pass system usable usefull and seriously i seen ever, in side Maya..

Develop by ONE guy (Corey Frew), In less than 2 YEARS ... :)

During this time our Fellow friend of the Mental Ray integration Team at AD were drinking beer and playing poker ! :beer:

well i guess so ... ;)

Kev3D
07-06-2011, 02:26 PM
Wow! That looks like a very useful tool. I can't get it to work in Maya 2012 though, I'm not seeing the menu.

Jozvex
07-07-2011, 05:42 AM
The mental ray integration may not be stellar in Maya but the Max integration has it's issues too. I recently took a course by Master Zap and he was using Max because he knows it best, and he had to spend a lot of time working around strange things in Max that were hard wired incorrectly etc. There was literally one class where he spent say 20 minutes explaining workarounds in Max and then said "for Maya and XSI, this is all fine"! :scream:

Mental Core is pretty good but still has lots of issues too. I'm using it on a personal project in Maya 2012 and get things like yellow splotches and controls in the Render Settings that don't affect the render etc. The Mental Core Mia shader crashes mental ray for me too.

eikonoklastes
07-07-2011, 06:04 AM
The mental ray integration may not be stellar in Maya but the Max integration has it's issues too. I recently took a course by Master Zap and he was using Max because he knows it best, and he had to spend a lot of time working around strange things in Max that were hard wired incorrectly etc. There was literally one class where he spent say 20 minutes explaining workarounds in Max and then said "for Maya and XSI, this is all fine"! :scream:

Mental Core is pretty good but still has lots of issues too. I'm using it on a personal project in Maya 2012 and get things like yellow splotches and controls in the Render Settings that don't affect the render etc. The Mental Core Mia shader crashes mental ray for me too.
This fills me with a certain amount of gloom.

So does mental ray actually integrate properly anywhere? Or are we just chasing unicorns?

Jozvex
07-07-2011, 06:26 AM
Well, I guess it's somewhat subjective as to what a good integration is. But for sure it could be a lot better in all packages.

One of the things people don't like in Maya is that you have to do a lot of things manually like connecting shaders and lightmaps and passes, and we have tons of shader nodes, but I think in Max they have the opposite problem (from what I saw in the course) where Autodesk implemented things the way they thought were best, but then you're kinda stuck with that! If you want something slightly different or there's a bug, it's not as flexible as it is in Maya.

Obviously XSI has a nice, fast implementation because it's scenes are natively written in MI format (I think?) but it too has less customisability than Maya (again, from what I've seen).

In a way it's a bit like a 4th party integration, because Autodesk may not fully comprehend the 3rd party renderer and what users want/need.

RagingBull
07-07-2011, 12:33 PM
This fills me with a certain amount of gloom.

So does mental ray actually integrate properly anywhere? Or are we just chasing unicorns?

Which part, MC (mental core) or MR integration - or both ?
Either way, like I said in my post I bought a licence for VR2 and will use that most of the time. If you are studying at the moment it's extremely well priced, and plenty of tutorials to help (even the max ones can be followed - because - it uses the SAME naming, unlike AD's porting to max/maya/SI). :thumbsup:

Bitter
07-07-2011, 05:36 PM
So does mental ray actually integrate properly anywhere? Or are we just chasing unicorns?

Apparently C4D does a decent job with being much more modern.

Part of the problem with integration is that mental ray itself is fairly complex. Similar complaints of complexity arise out of Renderman and 3Delight (most places will write their own like Mayaman and the like)

Vray has done a good job of maintaining a certain simplicity with their setup. This is generally great for a lot of users but leads to some frustration in VFX production from a developer standpoint. So it's about striking a balance. (Well developed Renderman pipelines are a dream but generally out of reach for a lot of people without the budget.)

The Autodesk products were aimed at different segments. So they integrated mental ray based on what they felt like the feedback was saying for those industries. But at the same time we don't think they always understood what we wanted/needed. A lot of this is tied to legacy integration maintenance and some people using old methods and crying foul when they were updated.

This has shifted some recently. Nvidia has an active interest in their products being easy to use and integration has been brought up often. (They spend a lot of time trying to help with various products because it generates more users and sales.) So they are much more consumer oriented rather than manufacturing/development like many software companies.

I'm hoping this shift (which is much more like a continental shift than a tremor, it just feels subtle for now) will get things moving again.

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