PDA

View Full Version : Newtek's Core application abandoned


cresshead
06-23-2011, 01:19 AM
Newtek have abandoned developing the Core stand alone 3d app in favour of rewriting Lightwave layout and modeller. this new turn of events will mean putting "core technology" into the existing apps [layout and modeller] and bring them upto date instead of a 3rd 3d application [CORE]

there's not much detail on exactly what this will bring long term but it's a pretty bold move to drop an app which was in Beta for several years.

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120297

DSW
06-23-2011, 01:24 AM
What are the competitive upgrade costs for Max, Maya and SoftImage?

I think that there will be a few people looking to move.

E_Moelzer
06-23-2011, 01:49 AM
I am not sure whether NewTek is offering a competitive upgrade right now, but maybe I can suggest it.

RobertoOrtiz
06-23-2011, 01:53 AM
Ok since you posted this I am posting mine...
Here is the original post...


Update for NewTek LightWave 3D® - June 22, 2011
Dear LightWave Community:

The NewTek 3D Team has, over the last few days, shared an important update on our development direction with our HardCORE team, and we now want to share this news with the community at large. Here is our update for you:

Update for NewTek LightWave 3D®

In early 2009, NewTek introduced a new direction for LightWave 3D® software called CORE technology. The CORE technology initiative represented a new, unified 3D application that would allow artists and TDs to model, animate, and render on a next generation platform.

First Benefits of CORE Technology Realized in LightWave™ 10

With the successful delivery of LightWave™ 10 software (December 2010), and our aggressive schedule to deliver LightWave 10.1, expected to ship this month, we’ve already been able to integrate new features based on CORE technology—the Viewport Preview Renderer (VPR) and Data Interchange Tools in LightWave 10—and bring those benefits and advancements to our LightWave customer base faster. LightWave 10.1 will introduce even more new features and benefits that are a direct result of our CORE technology.

New Approach to Deliver New Technology

Based on the positive success we had integrating the CORE technology-driven VPR into LightWave 10, we have decided to change course for how we intend to deliver CORE technology. Rather than create a re-branded, new product in a separate package—which considering the constant evolution of technology, could take months or even years—we plan to implement the CORE technology advancements directly into LightWave itself, in an iterative fashion. We are aware that re-writes and updates to the underlying architecture for LightWave will be necessary to accommodate the advanced features that CORE technology represents, and we are confident that these re-writes are possible. The final mandate and objective remains: incorporate new features and benefits from CORE technology into LightWave so our customer base can benefit from the most powerful, useful, and intuitive 3D tools in the industry.

What’s next for LightWave?

We’re staying on course by expanding the architecture within LightWave and developing amazing tools based on CORE technology. We plan to deliver incremental releases of LightWave, as promised to our customer base. The overall goal for the functionality and features that we all want has not changed—only the product and method in which we will deliver them is changing.

We hope you share our commitment and resolve, as we look forward to announcing the next release of LightWave, which will feature even more amazing new features based on new LightWave architectural enhancements and breakthroughs. We truly value our user community—who are among the most loyal and passionate in the industry. We want you to know that this new direction we take today will ultimately benefit us all. Thank you for your support and continued use of LightWave.

NewTek 3D Development Group

RobertoOrtiz
06-23-2011, 01:54 AM
From the LW developers:


LightWave has been converted to compile as C++ a long time ago (somewhere around 2005), meaning that C++ can be used across the codebase, and it is being used.

The Core SDK and its components make most sense to use in Layout as-is, no need for re-writing.

The integration has to be incremental, the biggest/most important step being the replacement of the scene/application graph.
The existing C SDK will have to be adapted to the Core scene graph internally, for existing plugins/scripts to continue to work.
For plugins/scripts leveraging all features the Core SDK/scene graph has to offer they will have to be written using the Core plugin system.



The Core SDK and its Components are modular by design and can be tested and developed as independent units separate from the application as a whole.

Guys this is the best of both worlds.

CORE has become Lightwave, and you still get classic LW functionality.

Add to that the fact that CORE WAS DEVELOPER AS A REPLACEMENT FOR MODELER
It means that now, in theory, A SINGLE INTEGRATED APPLICATION is now possible.



In plain English..
CORE IS NOT DEAD
CORE IS NOW LIGHTWAVE

Since the code of lightwave has been rewritten into the SAME LANGUAGE as CORE
and it s object oriented, both code bases now can share the same space and talk to each other. The older part of the code will be slowly eliminated as development goes forward.

This allows Newtek to use CORE as its principla development platform for future releases of LW.

DSW
06-23-2011, 01:57 AM
I am not sure whether NewTek is offering a competitive upgrade right now, but maybe I can suggest it.
I'd love to hear what the people here would think of buying into Newtek now.

ThE_JacO
06-23-2011, 02:33 AM
I'd love to hear what the people here would think of buying into Newtek now.
As an uneducated witness with no beef nor loyalty to newtek, this sends a very mixed message, and leaves so much open space between the lines to read what you want in it, that it's hard to make head or tails of it.

Even the few initiated to the core beta cult I know are generally nonplussed and confused, and given a big selling point of core to a new userbase was finally merging away from the archaic ambiguity and isolation of the two platforms, I fail to see how this is supposed to entice new users to look at it.

The advocates of the split apps being convenient normally ignore that a contiguous solution is objectively better in every regard. Gatekeeping, committing, chains of dependency and all should be left to the pipeline to decide, not forced upon someone by an artificial division in the software coming from too much legacy for the software house to cope.

I don't mean or want to flame, and the above is of course my personal opinion, but as a full time pipeline engineer/TD/Developer/CharacterTD that has some decisional swing, the above just pinched dead what little flame was left in the interest for the platform.

Once the zealots and vendor spinning are put on the side, it's hard not to read this as a cop out due to not hitting a technical milestone. It might be, or it might not be the case, but their (lack of) marketing and communication doesn't help one to get a clear and sincere sounding idea of what exactly they come from or where they want to take it, and if they will ever, even just once, get there anywhere in time.

RobertoOrtiz
06-23-2011, 02:33 AM
Thanks to
Bookman for making a valid point about the title of the thread.


I STRONGLY disagree with the title of this thread, but I don't want to be accused of censorship.

BUTIf this thread goes off rails I will gladly close it.

-R

BookMansBlues
06-23-2011, 03:01 AM
Thanks to
Bookman for making a valid point about the title of the thread.


I STRONGLY disagree with the title of this thread, but I don't want to be accused of censorship.

BUTIf this thread goes off rails I will gladly close it.

-R

:thumbsup:

BookMansBlues
06-23-2011, 03:13 AM
I will say this Roberto, which is really just an echo of what I said in another thread, at this point the ball is in NT's court, there was a fair amount of popular support for what they did among key* members of the HC program, but not all agreed. It is however reguardless of previous debates what we now have to work with, and like many people here and on the HC forums I'm a professional artist, and I know what it's like to be dealt a hand of cards that I don't always like for one reason or another, but I rise up to the occasion, as I think everyone who uses LW10.x has that choice now weather to rise up to meet this situation and either help the process or step aside and move on.

I expect most people to stick with it, it's not necessarily my favorite choice but it's also far from the worst one NT could have made, and at this point I have no choice but to live with it and go with the flow as I am a professional artist who still has to come to work everyday to work for a company I like on a show that I like, and use LW.

that's where we are. the course is set, now all we have to do is actually get there, and really it will or it will not all come out in the wash. Argument and ranting really isn't productive about the course at this point the decision is made.

SheepFactory
06-23-2011, 04:28 AM
Didn't Newtek charge people initially to be on the core alpha/beta? Are they refunding those?

ShaderOp
06-23-2011, 04:30 AM
.
.
.

Since you're reposting (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=7025798&postcount=80) what you've already said somewhere else on these forums, allow me to do the same.

I think you're reading this:
From the LW developers:

LightWave has been converted to compile as C++ a long time ago (somewhere around 2005), meaning that C++ can be used across the codebase, and it is being used.
And concluding this:
In plain English..
CORE IS NOT DEAD
CORE IS NOW LIGHTWAVE

Since the code of lightwave has been rewritten into the SAME LANGUAGE as CORE
and it s object oriented, both code bases now can share the same space and talk to each other. The older part of the code will be slowly eliminated as development goes forward.
Which is not a valid conclusion. Having a C program compile as C++ does not equal a complete rewrite in C++, does not suddenly make the code object-oriented, and does not make the program any better or worse.

What they are saying as far as I can understand is that they can merge code from CORE into Lightwave. Not that they have done it, not that they are doing it, nor that they are going to do it. And it definitely does not mean that Lightwave's architecture has changed, is being changed, or is going to change.

ShaderOp
06-23-2011, 04:35 AM
Didn't Newtek charge people initially to be on the core alpha/beta? Are they refunding those?
They did take a membership fee, and they said they are going to offer refunds once Lighwave 10.1 is released. If you like what you see in 10.1 then you can keep it and they get to keep the membership fees and call it even. Else they'll give you your money back.

SP00
06-23-2011, 05:00 AM
Hey Rob, I think you should change the title. Its a bit misleading and flamatory.

irwit
06-23-2011, 07:53 AM
I remember being really excited when hearing about CORE, then going on the webiste to see the new amazing features and there were 3 if I remember, one of them being them showing off the "shortcut editor". :arteest:

biliousfrog
06-23-2011, 08:44 AM
This is yet another major U-turn by NewTek. They started the whole CORE thing off by pointing out how old and dated the original code was, how the application was at the limit of what was possible without a complete re-write...now they're saying that it's fine as it is and they can keep sticking new features in...why?...because 3rd parties have been doing it for years and have proven that it wasn't so much the code that was the issue, it was the idiots using it. But this is NewTek and Lightwave all over, why do a decent job when a half-assed one is quicker and easier? Why change anything when a band-aid approach has worked for almost 20 years.

If it wasn't for the 3rd parties LW would have died years ago. Many of the plugins offered stuff that other apps could only dream of but NewTek offered very little support and the developers have always been very limited by what Lightwave's SDK could allow. They've done some amazing stuff but the bottleneck is the application itself.

I really like Lightwave, it's a very quick app to work with and the shading/rendering are excellent, but, as long as it is two applications, it is going to be very limited by what it can do. CORE was supposed to change that but not any more. If you're fine with using two seperate applications for modelling and animation/rendering would you pick LW's modeller and animation tools? Modo and Messiah would give you everything and more for a similar price to LW with all the plugins required.

Lightwave has the advantage of almost unlimited render nodes but that's all. Camera matching is a nightmare at times because you can't model to camera, animated booleans and extrusions require all sorts of hacks and work-arounds.

What little faith I had left in NT has completely gone now. Despite the appalling marketing for CORE the concept sounded great...finally a unified app which developers could use as a central hub to plug in to. Instead they took all the features which the 9.6 beta testers helped with over 18 months, made VPR (FPrime did almost exactly the same several years ago) and...well, that's it! Called it LW10, charged $399 (or whatever it was) to upgrade and now expects a pat on the back?...ludicrous

DSW
06-23-2011, 09:01 AM
I really like Lightwave, it's a very quick app to work with and the shading/rendering are excellent, but, as long as it is two applications, it is going to be very limited by what it can do. CORE was supposed to change that but not any more. If you're fine with using two seperate applications for modelling and animation/rendering would you pick LW's modeller and animation tools? Modo and Messiah would give you everything and more for a similar price to LW with all the plugins required.
Well... in all fairness to Newtek - and believe me, I am not sympathetic to them - even with the development plan they had WITH CORE, it would still have taken YEARS to fuse Modeler and Layout into something production-ready. That still is the plan, it's just that now they've decided to go a different route.

What little faith I had left in NT has completely gone now. Despite the appalling marketing for CORE the concept sounded great...finally a unified app which developers could use as a central hub to plug in to. Instead they took all the features which the 9.6 beta testers helped with over 18 months, made VPR (FPrime did almost exactly the same several years ago) and...well, that's it! Called it LW10, charged $399 (or whatever it was) to upgrade and now expects a pat on the back?...ludicrous
Unfortunately I have lost my faith in them as well. I didn't want to and I was hoping that this announcement would have had something to do with a re-invigorated effort towards the application called CORE. It wasn't. It was what I expected to hear and I am deeply saddened. I can and will no longer support Newtek. I bought into CORE to support them - sight unseen. That was then. This is now. On to those greener pastures that are so obviously available.

yog
06-23-2011, 09:39 AM
I must admit to being a little perplexed as to why some people are happy to believe Newtek when they say they have a new plan, despite chosing not to go into details of what it will include or have a timeframe for delivering it.
Let’s recap.

2005 – Newtek state there will absolutely be no re-write from scratch of Lightwave.
Early 2009 – Newtek state that the ONLY way forward is a complete re-write of Lightwave, and that due to years of design work they have been doing behind the scenes they will have it ready to ship by the end of the year.
Shortly after – People who pay to join get their first look at Core, and the first reaction is “There is absolutely no chance you can have this ready by the end of the year”, - Newtek “Yes we will”
End of 2009 – Newtek decide there is absolutely no chance they can have Core ready by the end of the year, and announce it will be delivered early 2010.
End of 2010 – Newtek decide they need to get something out the door in order to prop up sales, so they switch production to Lightwave, chuck in a couple bits from Core and call it LW-10. Not to worry though, this will not effect Core development, as soon as LW-10.0 is out the door all future development will switch back to Core.
Feb 2011 – Newtek, “because LW-10 was so rushed and last minute, we just need a little time to get a bug fix (LW-10.1) out, then all production switches back to Core … honest”.
June 2011 – “Actually, we decided that we don’t really know how to build a new application from scratch, so we are just going to asset strip Core, chuck what we can in LW and go on pretty much as before. By the way, we do have a new shiny and exciting plan … but we can’t tell you anything about it, or when we think we can achieve it”.
Today – Users reply with “Yippee, we have total faith in Newtek” ????

I’m just wondering where people are getting all this blind faith from. The past evidence seems to be against believing in Newtek plans and statements, or am I just being too cynical ?

biliousfrog
06-23-2011, 10:45 AM
Quote from Weetos (this made me LOL):

Ok, so if I'm not mistaken here's my own attempt to summarize what happened since LW9

LW9 architecture is a pile of old fashioned code that prevents from implementing new features
Implementing new features such as instancing or proper UV tools is not possible because of statement #1
Ok, let's go into parallel dev and secretly start a new LW from scratch using modern programming technologies
New project is codenamed 'Thor' and consists of a unified architecture
Oh my God, we discovered Qt - we now can design a modern UI
Did you see that guys ? it runs on GNU/Linux !
Sounds cool so far - LW9 will be the last version of the old code.
Let's do some buzz !
Ok we somehow screwed it up, CORE is far from being finished but we promise we will be delivering CORE soon
OOps - ok you didn't understand - CORE isn't not a complete program, it's a private Club where you can talk to the Dev Team who's working on nextgen LW
If you preorder now, you'll get CORE at the end of the semester
If you preorder now, you'll get tons of cool stuff and eventually CORE at the end of the year
preorder now and you'll get CORE when it's finished (some day in the future) - Oh and by the way, LW was used on Avatar and we hired Rob Powers
Ok we now need some cash, let's release a version 10 with some new features from CORE
preorder LW10 now and enter the HardCORE Club !
hummmm
Ok we're sorry, statements #1 and #2 are still true but don't care now, we give up on CORE and we prefer transferring the new technology to the old pile of crap. The concept of adding cool feature to a pile of half-baked features inherited from the 90's is amazing.
Please go back to #1 and increment LW version by one unit, and forget about everything we told you

Feel free to correct me if some of the statements are wrong

ThirdEye
06-23-2011, 11:32 AM
Every time i see something new about LW it feels uroboric.

blindsided
06-23-2011, 11:48 AM
The Ouroboros (or Uroborus)[1] is an ancient symbol depicting a serpent or dragon eating its own tail. It comes from the Greek words oura (Greek ουρά) meaning "tail" and bόros (Greek βόρος) meaning "eating", thus "he who eats the tail".[2]
The Ouroboros often represents self-reflexivity or cyclicality, especially in the sense of something constantly re-creating itself, the eternal return, and other things perceived as cycles that begin anew as soon as they end (the mythical phoenix has a similar symbolism). It can also represent the idea of primordial unity related to something existing in or persisting before any beginning with such force or qualities it cannot be extinguished. The ouroboros has been important in religious and mythological symbolism, but has also been frequently used in alchemical illustrations, where it symbolizes the circular nature of the alchemist's opus. It is also often associated with Gnosticism, and Hermeticism.

colkai
06-23-2011, 11:48 AM
I’m just wondering where people are getting all this blind faith from. The past evidence seems to be against believing in Newtek plans and statements, or am I just being too cynical ?
If you're cynical, budge up a bit because I need to join you on that particular bench. :)

fez
06-23-2011, 12:01 PM
I’m just wondering where people are getting all this blind faith from. The past evidence seems to be against believing in Newtek plans and statements, or am I just being too cynical ?

The 3D max rewrite took years and failed miserably (I mean the old max rewrite. The new rewrite has a ways to go but certainly has a ton of potential). The Softimage rewrite took years and years and years but ultimately triumphed. Due to massive loss of market share, XSI now has a slightly awkward Harry Potter home under Autodesk's stairs. XSI is brilliant by the way.

The main mistake Newtek made was making their effort public. Like Avid and Autodesk, Newtek likely grossly underestimated the magnitude of undertaking a total rewrite.

In the past year, after a technical breakthrough, the new management at Newtek seemingly switched priorities to Layout and delivered vastly improved performance and focused tools that help everyday production. 10.1 is so good that Lightwave has a primary place in my Max/Modo pipeline for the first time in years.

Modeler, admittedly, has languished and has almost no part in my pipeline. However, Lightwave development is now guided by a guy with many years of production experience who has expressed in no uncertain terms the urgent need for a truly integrated environment for modeling/animating/rendering.

Most importantly, Rob and his team have stated they are not going to win over the 3D community with their words but with their software.

MagicMushroom
06-23-2011, 01:07 PM
Is it just me or the whole thing looks like a Duke Nukem development schedule.
I lost my interest completely, was v.8 (mostly stills and simple anims - so can't speak about CA etc.) user for the past few years and boy I was really excited to see what they're are doing and even tho I didn't get into 'fanboy' battles all over the different boards defending LW I really trusted their vision and hoped for the best. Such a shame because I love LW render engine and shading network - one of the best designed systems I've seen.

"Band-aid" strategy is not for me, got the 800 pounds at a hand and I'll probably invest them somewhere else.

At least they've got the balls to admit that things have changes, no more "smoke and mirrors" tactics.

BigJay
06-23-2011, 02:28 PM
I don't know why companies just don't say hey we're developing core and just do that on the side till it's done. false promises just build distrust of anything they say.

I'll just wait till LW11 to see if i'll upgrade past 9.

AnonyMouse
06-23-2011, 02:40 PM
I am not very surprised. Do you remember the 00:00:00:00 (how many zeros were there) thing? I was so interesting to wait 2 hours after that to see stream video with "The new standart script language Python is introduced... What? Not working?.. OK...".
But seriously I think they don't need to rewrite anything. Few big fishes are in the ocean and we don't have big choise. So if you don't like Autodesk there is Maxon and Lightwave... rewritten or not, double-priced or not, buggy or not, that is :wip: We are screwed anyway.

JPWestmas
06-23-2011, 03:42 PM
Despite all the back-tracking, the "Whoopsies, we really meant to do this instead", oddly redundant and ambiguous communication from Newtek. . .

Lightwave 10 is really nice. It's not everything I hoped and definitely not the HC membership experience that I was expecting, but really a nice package.

It just looks ugly because Newtek likes to make themselves look that way. If that wasn't true then why do they keep doing this to themselves. I would agree that NT walks around in their undergarments way too much when talking to the public, because they don't know any better.

Larry_g1s
06-23-2011, 04:43 PM
I hope it works out for them. I still enjoy the software, but I'm no longer a fan. I will continue to use it along side Maya, but I'm now also looking at other options (currently modo). NewTek has tried to make it as right as they can with the option for a refund, but it still sucks for those of us wanting what we were seeing/hopeful from Core.

They have transformed me from a fan who was positive about the app and company, to one who simply enjoys the app and is skeptical here on out.

On a side but related note, v10 is nice (linear workflow), just difficult to be real excited when it wasn't what I was looking for.

Hey Rob, I think you should change the title. Its a bit misleading and flamatory.It's accurate. Core as a stand alone, next gen LW app, is abandoned. It's being relegated as a test bed for the current LW moving forward (good or bad depending on you opinion). The idea of LightWave with Core tech, means nothing to the end user. At the end of the day you're going to get the product (i.e. LW), how they got there is irrelevant. So, yes Core as it was, is abandon, to change the title would be to comply with the marketing spin.

cresshead
06-23-2011, 05:54 PM
Hey Rob, I think you should change the title. Its a bit misleading and flamatory.

I respectfully disagree, after reading around 4000 word's of PR 'gloss' from newtek i wished to distil it down into 1 short description that left no quarter for 'vague' or pr 'spin'

Core as a 3d app is no more, it has ceased to 'be' it's and ex app...it has been abandoned by Newtek in favour of re writing/adding code to the existing applications known as lightwave layout and lightwave modeller.

there is no more Lightwave Core application...newtek decided to pull the plug on that app and try and move code from it and write new code into layout and modeller instead.

when people bought into core and the hardcore membership several years back it was for a fresh start and new app from the ground up that was a unified app not a split app, we were sold the idea of lightwave layout and modeller being bug fixed in a 10 version and one that worked well in moving data to and throw from core and that core would be the vision as a new way forward.

well several years on newtek were not seen to be capable of getting this new application out of the door in a reasonable timeframe..so they abandoned it in favour of tacking on new tools from core into layout for example VPR.

to be honest it looks like the development of Core was doomed, newtek just did not have the resources to make a new 3d app from scratch be that for many reasons we will never know.

the developers are capable of editing code and making tools so it's a somewhat less mountain to climb fixing an app and adding to an existing app than it is to make a new app.

how well this will play out over the next few months/years is anyones guess, it maybe the best way forward or they may do another u turn in 2 years time with another change of leadership.

as a business they need to sell product, with lightwave core the application missing 2 release self imposed deadlines the best choice was to go back and polish up classic Lightwave and slap a new number on it to get new sales thru in good time.

as a HC member i was not a fan of the blackout on information on what was happening with core, we all guessed what was happening several month's back but no one from newtek appeared to want to discuss anything core related with us.

dropping core as a 3d stand alone app is probably a good business move, but the poor communication newtek decided to subject their HC members with was without doubt a painful experience for many members, we're left now with more glossy spun development promises and a new shinny vague development path.

It could turn out to be brilliant but newtek have a self built mountain to climb to regain our trust in them.

DutchDimension
06-23-2011, 06:41 PM
The Luxology boys must be laughing their butts off. Man... what a mess. :hmm:

Seriously though, this was writing on the wall. That original feature list they came up with at the time of the Core announcement was hugely ambitious. That small team was supposed to deliver all that whilst working on Lightwave concurrently and all that in those unrealistic time frames? Really now... Then all the PR fanfare ensued with little else but those laughable video previews (who were they trying to impress with that??).

pooby
06-23-2011, 06:49 PM
I'm surprised nobody has yet speculated about what will happen regarding Newteks leadership when Avatar2 kicks off.

SheepFactory
06-23-2011, 06:54 PM
I always likened Core to Duke Nukem Forever but the latter actually got released.

DutchDimension
06-23-2011, 06:59 PM
I'm surprised nobody has wondered yet about what will happen regarding Newteks leadership when Avatar2 kicks off.

Haven't you heard? Upon reading NewTek's statement Cameron pulled the plug, flushing the US economy down the drain along with it. He will make Titanic 2 instead. ;)

Erka2
06-23-2011, 07:21 PM
Haven't you heard? Upon reading NewTek's statement Cameron pulled the plug, flushing the US economy down the drain along with it. He will make Titanic 2 instead. ;)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1640571/

DuttyFoot
06-23-2011, 07:28 PM
I always likened Core to Duke Nukem Forever but the latter actually got released.

honestly that game isn't impressive at all, it probably should have stayed on the shelf.

i thought dutch was joking about titanic 2

yog
06-23-2011, 07:42 PM
Snipped a rather excellent post
Yep Cress, I agree 100% with everything you said. And no, the title of the thread is not misleading at all.

It's been a very frustrating couple of years. The whole Core thing has been going pear shaped for a while, but every time someone tried mentioning it outside the forums they were slapped with "you agreed not to disclose", yet very misleading positive spin was always allowed to "leak" out :rolleyes:

DSW
06-23-2011, 08:02 PM
I've been a Newtek "fanboy" for years - always rooting for the underdog and seriously wanting them to compete in the big market. Nothing - NOTHING - could have made me change from LW to something else. And now I'm living through yet another broken promise by Newtek.

There were quite a few vocal opponents to CORE when it was first introduced - not Lightwavey-enough - so they didn't want anything to do with it and rallied against it and slammed it every chance they got. They didn't want anything that had something in common with Maya or XSI or Max or any other 3D app - it had to be JUST Lightwave. There were quite a few people who said that "these people should get out and use other apps - there MAY be better ways of doing things and you should have an open mind." A few listened and really liked these tools that had a new way of working. But the extremely vocally-opposed won the day. Well those people have managed to help convince Newtek that the way to a modern app is not CORE, but reworking old LW. That's why you find some that are ecstatic over this news, while so many others are saddened. The ironic thing is, by the te these apps become fully integrated - and all of the ensuing problems notwithstanding - it may only be where the "big apps" are right now.

Newtek has finally lost my business - after initially using LW since 1996. I wish them well, but I won't be their stoic cheerleader anymore and I won't be looking at upgrades from them for a VERY long time. I'm still debating on whether or not to get the refund. I'm sure we'd have to pay to ship it back.

DrBalthar
06-23-2011, 08:02 PM
NewTek doesn't make themself a favour in the engineer department they do probably in their sales department. It looks like sales team has won over engineers. Shame in my eyes that's never a good thing. A complete rewrite is a tough decision (especially financially) but something that usually pays off in the long run. Since there is only that far you can go with something that is 10-15 years old at its core and layers and layers of crust have put on top of it to hold it together. That's the main problem some of the Autodesk applications are plagued with especially 3dsmax and Maya there so much bolted on legacy crap in there which hinders progress.

DrBalthar
06-23-2011, 08:14 PM
I don't know why companies just don't say hey we're developing core and just do that on the side till it's done. false promises just build distrust of anything they say.

I'll just wait till LW11 to see if i'll upgrade past 9.
It's marketing dude. It's that whole department in a company that otherwise has nothing else to do their only sole purpose is to man the hype train no matter if it ends up as a train wreck.

philnolan3d
06-24-2011, 04:35 AM
I don't know why companies just don't say hey we're developing core and just do that on the side till it's done. false promises just build distrust of anything they say.

I'll just wait till LW11 to see if i'll upgrade past 9.

Keep in mind that if you wait until after 11 is out you will miss out on the discounted price for it and the next 4 versions, buy in before 11 and you get the discount on 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, and 15.

yog
06-24-2011, 05:47 AM
Keep in mind that if you wait until after 11 is out you will miss out on the discounted price for it and the next 4 versions, buy in before 11 and you get the discount on 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, and 15.
Looking at what actually made it into LW-10, considering Newtek want to move to a 12 month paid upgrade cycle, and bearing in mind it took them nearly 7 months to release a bug fix for the hastily released LW10 ... how many "discounted" upgrades are users likely to have to PAY for before they receive the equivalent features they have already paid for in Core ??

DSW
06-24-2011, 06:05 AM
Looking at what actually made it into LW-10, considering Newtek want to move to a 12 month paid upgrade cycle, and bearing in mind it took them nearly 7 months to release a bug fix for the hastily released LW10 ... how many "discounted" upgrades are users likely to have to PAY for before they receive the equivalent features they have already paid for in Core ??
Yes, that was my point before. Five paid upgrades at $395 each (or $495) for the next five upgrades is great - unless you get far less for each upgrade. Then in fact skipping upgrades would be far better - if you intend to stay with LW. I will always have at least one license, but I completely disagree that LW10 and 10.1 is a good upgrade. There simply isn't enough there to make it worthwhile IMO. I don't see how it comes close to being anything like other full point upgrades of LW in the past.

Regardless, LW is still a good value for what you get. But the fact is, other software has far more and can do lots more right out of the box than LW. With LW you need quite a number of additional plugins to do the same as these other pieces of software. Look at SI. Just one integrated plugin called Syflex which is far better than LW clothFX - just add that one plugin cost to LW and you've got the cost of SI. And there's lots more. Of course the downside is that it's AD and there is more cost. But then... how much more do you get?

I'll always love LW, but I feel that it's slowly going the way of the dodo. Hopefully it will always have that little niche market so it will stick around a long time!

AnonyMouse
06-24-2011, 08:58 AM
The Luxology boys must be laughing their butts off. Man... what a mess. :hmm:
Yeah... maybe... OR maybe Newtek will do that. Just imagine that Luxology is related to Newtek and Modo is Lightwave plugin and both will make (almost) full featured application, but never Modo alone. We will see this. In this line I am thinking was this Core an advertising trick only...
I am very suspicious.

Cageman
06-24-2011, 03:01 PM
I certanly had a lot of mixed feelings about the announcement, initially I was aggrivated and sadened at the same time. Now, a couple of days later, I have a different view of it all.

First of all, I think it is good that NT now can focus on ONE application, instead of 2. Some would argue that LW is 3 applications (Layout, Modeler and HUB), and to a certain degree I agree, but I see it more like 2 modules that communicates through something called Hub.

Secondly, from where I stand, I use multiple applications on daily basis, and LWs renderengine is one of the most reliable ones out there, and it is integrated quite tightly with the application. As far as rendering goes, LW stands out quite well and works very well in most situations. Above all, it very easy to learn (nodes might become complicated for some).

Three, this new direction doesn't affect my day to day usage of LW and other apps that much, the only difference, I would say, is that this new direction has the potential to give the users updates to various things faster (rendering and shading improvments in particular), which I think is, from my standpoint at least, the most important aspect of LW today.

If NT can enhance those aspects of LW for the endusers, they can do pretty much anything they want in regards to re-writing and take their time to get things right, and maybe one day there will be a completely re-written LW that can be competetive in all aspects of 3D, not just rendering.

Time will tell.

:)

SheepFactory
06-24-2011, 03:20 PM
.

Three, this new direction doesn't affect my day to day usage of LW and other apps that much, the only difference, I would say, is that this new direction has the potential to give the users updates to various things faster (rendering and shading improvments in particular), which I think is, from my standpoint at least, the most important aspect of LW today.

If NT can enhance those aspects of LW for the endusers, they can do pretty much anything they want in regards to re-writing and take their time to get things right, and maybe one day there will be a completely re-written LW that can be competetive in all aspects of 3D, not just rendering.

Time will tell.

:)

Wasn't that what core was? A completely rewritten lw that was supposed to be competitive in all aspects? Don't you think they would have rewrote lw slowly instead of trying to make an entire new application if that was feasible. Somehow I am not seeing the silver lining here like you are.

Larry_g1s
06-24-2011, 03:56 PM
I certanly had a lot of mixed feelings about the announcement, initially I was aggrivated and sadened at the same time. Now, a couple of days later, I have a different view of it all.

First of all, I think it is good that NT now can focus on ONE application, instead of 2. Some would argue that LW is 3 applications (Layout, Modeler and HUB), and to a certain degree I agree, but I see it more like 2 modules that communicates through something called Hub.

Secondly, from where I stand, I use multiple applications on daily basis, and LWs renderengine is one of the most reliable ones out there, and it is integrated quite tightly with the application. As far as rendering goes, LW stands out quite well and works very well in most situations. Above all, it very easy to learn (nodes might become complicated for some).

Three, this new direction doesn't affect my day to day usage of LW and other apps that much, the only difference, I would say, is that this new direction has the potential to give the users updates to various things faster (rendering and shading improvments in particular), which I think is, from my standpoint at least, the most important aspect of LW today.

If NT can enhance those aspects of LW for the endusers, they can do pretty much anything they want in regards to re-writing and take their time to get things right, and maybe one day there will be a completely re-written LW that can be competetive in all aspects of 3D, not just rendering.

Time will tell.

:)This news hasn't changed my views on LW itself. I've been using it for 11 years and news like this isn't going to sudden make it junk. So with many of your statements, I agree. What it is for me is a reflection on the company that produces the product. When I look to use a 3D application day in day out, it's an investment (not just monetary). So I start to look at the company behind the product. And after this fiasco of 2.5 years, I have very little confidence in them right now. I hope they're able to achieve what they've now set forth, I'll keep one of my current v10 lic., it'll just be a very hard sell and waiting game with me now for current versions.

So no...after 2.5 years and two 180's, I'm just not as quick to jump on the "lets put all this behind us", positive, business as usual, band wagon.

pluMmet
06-24-2011, 04:09 PM
First of all, I think it is good that NT now can focus on ONE application, instead of 2

So maybe if they just focused on Core once Rob showed up things would be moving in the promised direction?

philnolan3d
06-24-2011, 04:12 PM
Looking at what actually made it into LW-10, considering Newtek want to move to a 12 month paid upgrade cycle, and bearing in mind it took them nearly 7 months to release a bug fix for the hastily released LW10 ... how many "discounted" upgrades are users likely to have to PAY for before they receive the equivalent features they have already paid for in Core ??

This is exactly what I was saying, wait and see what's in 11 before deciding to leave if you're already an owner, you've got quite some time before you'll have to pay again. I think it's pretty obvious that they're not going to a 12 month cycle, since it's been just about 7 months and the first of the free incremental updates isn't even out yet. That cycle thing was Jay's idea I think and Jay is gone.

Cageman
06-24-2011, 04:18 PM
So maybe if they just focused on Core once Rob showed up things would be moving in the promised direction?

I belive so yes, but a lot of the stuff LW can do right now would be totally lost (in terms of updates for the users) for at least two-three years, and that is with a total focus on CORE, meaning that LW10.x would not have been released at all.

Tough desicion for NT no matter how you bend it.

BigJay
06-24-2011, 04:26 PM
seems like they were able to add some core features into LW so maybe they can continue to do that. while gutting the bits that aren't necessary any more.

as for buying LW 10 so i can get the next version something tells me the way they are going i'll be able to get the update during some sale or such when the time comes. I went from 7 to 9 so from 9 to 11 shouldn't be much different.

pluMmet
06-24-2011, 04:37 PM
I belive so yes, but a lot of the stuff LW can do right now would be totally lost (in terms of updates for the users) for at least two-three years, and that is with a total focus on CORE, meaning that LW10.x would not have been released at all.

Tough desicion for NT no matter how you bend it.
How ever did Softimage manage it with XSI?

Cageman
06-24-2011, 04:47 PM
How ever did Softimage manage it with XSI?

They went dark... for several years... and looking at the userbase now, they lost a lot by going dark. No matter how good XSI is today, many users went out the door and learned Maya and havn't looked back.

pluMmet
06-24-2011, 04:56 PM
They went dark... for several years... and looking at the userbase now, they lost a lot by going dark. No matter how good XSI is today, many users went out the door and learned Maya and havn't looked back.

Sounds a little different on the wiki

"Softimage|3D was gradually replaced by the company's next product, Softimage XSI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Softimage_XSI) starting in 2000.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Softimage_3D#cite_note-6) The last version of Sofimage|3D was version 4.0, released in 2002"

CB_3D
06-24-2011, 05:08 PM
Yeah... maybe... OR maybe Newtek will do that. Just imagine that Luxology is related to Newtek and Modo is Lightwave plugin and both will make (almost) full featured application, but never Modo alone. We will see this. In this line I am thinking was this Core an advertising trick only...
I am very suspicious.

For some time I had similar thoughts. But in the end that would be pretty stupid, having two competing almost identical products under two different names on the market.
Also fiscally it would make no sense.

There´s not a lot missing for Modo to become a full LW/MAX/C4D substitute, can´t wait to see what they come up with.

gandhics
06-24-2011, 05:15 PM
XSI project started around mid-90s(same time around 3ds Max, Maya development started.)

In early 90s, Softimages had a big market share(not smaller than Alias). While XSI was struggling to deliver, Maya came out in 1998, and the entire market shifted. Also the first version of XSI lacks a lot of functions, they had to bundle with Softimage 3D. It took almost 2 more versions to be useful.

When everything sorted out, XSI user base is all gone and never came back.

yog
06-24-2011, 05:38 PM
.... you've got quite some time before you'll have to pay again. I think it's pretty obvious that they're not going to a 12 month cycle, since it's been just about 7 months and the first of the free incremental updates isn't even out yet. That cycle thing was Jay's idea I think and Jay is gone.
If you have access to the HC forums I suggest you go back and read some of the posts by NT employees. There was a clear statement that NT were looking to get back to the 12 month paid upgrade cycle.

Think about it. NT very likely did not make much off releasing LW-10, as it would mostly have been had by people on the Core program who got it for free. Considering how much uncertainty there was regarding Core during the last year, I suspect that those wary enough not to jump on Core early on were going to continue to hold off purchasing until there was more definite news on Core. Therefore I suspect that even if LW-11 were released at the end of this year (12 months after LW-10), then that is still nearly three years with very little new income from their 3D division.

DSW
06-24-2011, 07:31 PM
This is exactly what I was saying, wait and see what's in 11 before deciding to leave if you're already an owner, you've got quite some time before you'll have to pay again. I think it's pretty obvious that they're not going to a 12 month cycle, since it's been just about 7 months and the first of the free incremental updates isn't even out yet. That cycle thing was Jay's idea I think and Jay is gone.
Yes, but don't you think that the features we may/will see in LW11 SHOULD have been in the CORE release that many have already paid for? And we know that what users bought into at the very beginning of CORE is in no way, shape or form realized in LW10.x. It has also been intimated that 10.1 will probably be the end of the feature set for the 10.x series - seems that buyers of LW10 will be getting FAR less (IMO) than what they signed up and paid for. Having to pay for LW11 doesn't help at all really. :(

ThirdEye
06-24-2011, 08:26 PM
XSI project started around mid-90s(same time around 3ds Max, Maya development started.)

In early 90s, Softimages had a big market share(not smaller than Alias). While XSI was struggling to deliver, Maya came out in 1998, and the entire market shifted. Also the first version of XSI lacks a lot of functions, they had to bundle with Softimage 3D. It took almost 2 more versions to be useful.

When everything sorted out, XSI user base is all gone and never came back.

That's a different story though, don't forget Softimage changed its owner 3-4 times so far, unlike Newtek. First Softimage, then Microsoft, then Avid, now Autodesk.

Locutus
06-24-2011, 11:07 PM
as a HC member i was not a fan of the blackout on information on what was happening with core, we all guessed what was happening several month's back but no one from newtek appeared to want to discuss anything core related with us.

So let me get this straight. Newtek sold memberships to HardCore which was designed as a vehicle for keeping members informed on CORE development and Newtek stopped disuccing CORE related news/issues?
Damn dude, I would be pissed off and so should ALL of the HardCORE memebers. Newtek took your money, took you all for a ride, and you got nothing to show for it.
What a joke.

Locutus
06-24-2011, 11:17 PM
Keep in mind that if you wait until after 11 is out you will miss out on the discounted price for it and the next 4 versions, buy in before 11 and you get the discount on 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, and 15.
That statement doesn't mean jack, if the next 5 upgrades are as lame and lackluster as the last 5 upgrades. It would be cheaper to just wait and by-pass it all.
Besides, this just sounds like a lame attempt at placating the people Newtek ripped off with this debacle.

Bliz
06-25-2011, 12:18 AM
In my 'humble' opinion, At the end of the LW8 cycle, Newtek would have been better off splitting off the render engine into it's own self contained entity and hiring programmers that were familiar with writing plugins for the main competing packages, to write watertight exporter plugins for said competing packages.
They could have even kept Layout as the 'scene building app' for the renderer. Hell, they could have even sold Modeler separately as a Silo3D killer.

They even had their own 'niche market' in broadcast CG to fully exploit
i.e. A studio can buy Vray for archvis, renderman for longform film and lightwave[renderer] for whatever SyFy channel feel like making after Caprica etc.

It's a shame, I still love the stability, look and consistency of the LW renderer and I would hate for the renderer to be sucked into obsolescence by the other parts of Lightwave.

Larry_g1s
06-25-2011, 01:21 AM
So let me get this straight. Newtek sold memberships to HardCore which was designed as a vehicle for keeping members informed on CORE development and Newtek stopped disuccing CORE related news/issues?
Damn dude, I would be pissed off and so should ALL of the HardCORE memebers. Newtek took your money, took you all for a ride, and you got nothing to show for it.
What a joke.there is the option for a complete refund.

philnolan3d
06-25-2011, 02:37 AM
If you have access to the HC forums I suggest you go back and read some of the posts by NT employees. There was a clear statement that NT were looking to get back to the 12 month paid upgrade cycle.


Yes I'm in HC and reading quite a bit. I don't see anytihing about wanting to do a 12 month cycle currently. Only what was suggested by Jay at the Core announcement like 2 years ago. Also what do you mean by "get back to the 12 month paid upgrade cycle"? AFAIK LW has never been on a 12 month cycle.

Yes, but don't you think that the features we may/will see in LW11 SHOULD have been in the CORE release that many have already paid for?

I don't know what will be in 11 or later in 10, I'm hoping to get what I paid for in 10.x. If it's not in a new app, then I expect those same features in LightWave "Classic".

Newtek took your money, took you all for a ride, and you got nothing to show for it.

To be fair, they didn't give us nothing, we got (so far) everything that's in 10 and the upcoming 10.1.

Larry_g1s
06-25-2011, 02:44 AM
Even with my dissatisfaction with the whole process, contrary to the haters, it's still a solid app at a much cheaper cost then most 3D apps. I know their team is talented and has worked hard and I hope for the sake of competition that NewTek is able to do what they have set out and in a timely manner.

pluMmet
06-25-2011, 03:22 AM
XSI project started around mid-90s(same time around 3ds Max, Maya development started.)

Core development started 4 1/2 years ago...so what is your point?

My point is that all NT had to do was stop making LW classic and focus on Core.

philnolan3d
06-25-2011, 04:18 AM
My point is that all NT had to do was stop making LW classic and focus on Core.

Then what about us that make our living with LightWave? We get frozen for a few years?

DSW
06-25-2011, 07:00 AM
Then what about us that make our living with LightWave? We get frozen for a few years?
Yes, it would have been a balancing act. Unfortunately Newtek (IMO) just isn't a large enough company to handle working on both CORE as well as classic LW in tandem. A mega-software company like AD has the resources, Newtek does not. I hope it's not true, but from what I've read it MAY be that we are feature-complete with the 10.x series as of 10.1. I hope that this is NOT the case - we'll just have to wait for more information from Newtek. If it IS feature complete, I won't be extremely happy. Back to the waiting game....

Veehoy
06-25-2011, 08:49 AM
Then what about us that make our living with LightWave? We get frozen for a few years?
We will see. If you in a couple of years haven´t seen any significant new features you use in making your living, and add to that the time that has passed since Core left the focus of their development (6 months? Is that a fair assumption? Could be more) that is two and a half years with full focus on developing on the new foundation that Core was gone to waste so to keep those that scream the loudest happy. Who knows how far they could have taken that? Instead of patching and replacing the old.
But you and others in the same situation have won that tug-of-war so be it. Only thing that strikes me when I hear those arguments (Yay, I can still keep working, no need to learn the alien Core applicaton , keeping the user base, etc) is that there is a lot of "present" thinking and very little "future". What happened to "attracting new customers"?

DSW
06-25-2011, 09:10 AM
But you and others in the same situation have won that tug-of-war so be it. Only thing that strikes me when I hear your arguments (Yay, I can still keep working, no need to learn some new alien Core applicaton , etc) is that there is a lot of "present" thinking and very little "future". What happened to "attracting new customers"?
I can't speak for Phil, but I don't recall him being in the "screw CORE camp" and wanting focus on classic LW. I certainly wanted focus on CORE, but understood why classic LW was still needed - CORE wouldn't be able to stand on its own for some time to come so classic would still be needed for some interchange. Still, I was/am not happy with this course change. I understand what they are saying - and that this isn't just patching into the old code - but (not being a programmer) IMO it would seem to be more difficult to insert CORE code into the classic codebase as opposed to having a completely clean codebase. But hey... what do I know?

In regards to attracting new customers? I love LW, but I don't see that there is ANY serious chance for them to pick up new, professional customers any time soon - and that's years. Unless they come up with something super - which is unlikely - LW will remain in the small, niche market. Perhaps using the CORE code will work. I certainly don't know. But I'll still be working with LW for quite some time - as well as looking at Blender and SI. :)

CB_3D
06-25-2011, 09:14 AM
Then what about us that make our living with LightWave? We get frozen for a few years?

To be fair, we didn´t get that much innovation in Lightwave over the last 4 years, anyway.

They could have frozen LW at version 9 and focused on Core to have it ready and fully functional now.

cresshead
06-25-2011, 09:14 AM
Even with my dissatisfaction with the whole process, contrary to the haters, it's still a solid app at a much cheaper cost then most 3D apps. I know their team is talented and has worked hard and I hope for the sake of competition that NewTek is able to do what they have set out and in a timely manner.

Yes that's probably why they scaled back and changed their Goals from making a new 3d app to one of making tools for the existing app and adjusting the code to a more modern 'with core technology' within it.

this however is not without it's own significant mountains to climb such as they'll be re-writing 2 applications at the same time that of layout and modeller plus the connection app called the hub.

the main benefits to newtek's change of course are that they can add tools to their existing 3d app called lightwave and continue to sell it and add version numbers to it year on year as they re write it whereas core would have had to wait until it was a app worthy of releasing a version 1.0..and they have already missed 2 release deadlines on that.

for the next foreseeable future lightwave will still be 2 applications and the hub with all the restriction that a split app has for modelling in camera view [can't do it] and adjusting topology/poly's/weightmaps when rigging in layout for example and having to hold the memory for model and scenes at the same time in 2 different apps.

the upside is that the users have a lightwaveyness and not a new app to learn..it will be familiar and they can grow along side the changes newtek make.

lightwave is still probably the cheapest full featured 3dapp that has modelling, rigging, particles and a descent renderer, it's renderer is still to be admired and is used on many award winning tv shows.

it's not all doom and gloom!...just newtek have taken an unexpected fork in the road.

Emmanuel
06-25-2011, 12:04 PM
And having experienced some history in software selling, I can almost guarantee that good deals for 11, 12, 13...will come as soon as the softwares are announced.
There is no such thing as a unique occasion, like buy now or miss good stuff forever.
They need to sell and they will always sweeten the deals, no matter if You buy NOW or skip.
See, I skipped all the HardCORE teaser offerings they had and where left me that ?
In the same place as before, I didnt miss a thing :D And NT will definitly give me temporary discounts and added values, because THEY MUST if the want to sell their product.Easy as that.
I will never ever fall again for that "limited time only" trick.Show me whats in the basket, and I will consider buying.

Cageman
06-25-2011, 12:05 PM
http://www.cgchannel.com/2011/06/rob-powers-on-lightwaves-three-year-roadmap/

Interresting read... some vague hints in it, but I think NT has learned a hard lesson here; never speak about things until you can show it.

ThirdEye
06-25-2011, 12:30 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCRAV4YZVKY

Cageman
06-25-2011, 12:41 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCRAV4YZVKY

Haha...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2yigliim0U&NR=1&feature=fvwp

:)

Veehoy
06-25-2011, 01:32 PM
I can't speak for Phil, but I don't recall him being in the "screw CORE camp" and wanting focus on classic LW. I certainly wanted focus on CORE, but understood why classic LW was still needed - CORE wouldn't be able to stand on its own for some time to come so classic would still be needed for some interchange. Still, I was/am not happy with this course change. I understand what they are saying - and that this isn't just patching into the old code - but (not being a programmer) IMO it would seem to be more difficult to insert CORE code into the classic codebase as opposed to having a completely clean codebase. But hey... what do I know?

In regards to attracting new customers? I love LW, but I don't see that there is ANY serious chance for them to pick up new, professional customers any time soon - and that's years. Unless they come up with something super - which is unlikely - LW will remain in the small, niche market. Perhaps using the CORE code will work. I certainly don't know. But I'll still be working with LW for quite some time - as well as looking at Blender and SI. :)
My main point was that he used one of the typical arguments the "screw core camp" has been using (how am I supposed to make my living). Sorry, Phil, if it came out that way.

But like you I´ll keep using LW for some time. Have purchased Modo too.....so if LWcad should make an appearance there, I would probably be gone....if NT hasn´t come up with anything marvelous, that is.

philnolan3d
06-25-2011, 03:02 PM
My main point was that he used one of the typical arguments the "screw core camp" has been using (how am I supposed to make my living). Sorry, Phil, if it came out that way.

But like you I´ll keep using LW for some time. Have purchased Modo too.....so if LWcad should make an appearance there, I would probably be gone....if NT hasn´t come up with anything marvelous, that is.

I was very excited for CORE so I'm sad to see it "go". However, if they somehow can get all of the speed and abilities into classic LW that CORE had and offered, then I'll be satisfied. In fact it would be very nice to still be able to use all of the old plugins that I have been over the years. Losing those was one down side to CORE.

pluMmet
06-25-2011, 03:20 PM
However, if they somehow can get all of the speed and abilities into classic LW that CORE had and offered, then I'll be satisfied.

So you believe that they can get nodal workflow with history stack and multithreaded everything into LW classic?

cresshead
06-25-2011, 04:05 PM
So you believe that they can get nodal workflow with history stack and multithreaded everything into LW classic?

eventually, though when that is will be anyone's guess.

philnolan3d
06-25-2011, 05:22 PM
I don't know what they can do, especially since I'm not a programmer, let alone someone who works at NT. All I can do is hope now.

pluMmet
06-25-2011, 06:50 PM
I don't know what they can do, especially since I'm not a programmer, let alone someone who works at NT. All I can do is hope now.

Well given the new 'policy' of not telling you what is going to be in any future version LW comes at a perfect time then...you can hope these things will be in there for the next (x) years lol

While you are hoping though maybe you should ask some programmers which is easier, building these things into a program (like LW) that does not have them or putting them into a new program (like Core.)

I must also point out that 90% of the people I see that say they are sticking behind NT on this also mention that they can't afford to switch over to something else. I of course am not trying to say anything about them but just that NT is being supported by a captive audience.

cresshead
06-25-2011, 07:43 PM
Well given the new 'policy' of not telling you what is going to be in any future version LW comes at a perfect time then...you can hope these things will be in there for the next (x) years lol

While you are hoping though maybe you should ask some programmers which is easier, building these things into a program (like LW) that does not have them or putting them into a new program (like Core.)

I must also point out that 90% of the people I see that say they are sticking behind NT on this also mention that they can't afford to switch over to something else. I of course am not trying to say anything about them but just that NT is being supported by a captive audience.

there are options out there to move on with little or no extra expense, Blender for example...of course you will need to put time in to learn it and maybe buy some books/videos.

also there's a offer on the table from another 3d app to move over without too much pain.

to be fair most people do not like to learn new stuff, that's probably why most lightwavers in hardcore will remain with it as it goes thru it's internal re write..they just want new tool in that same or similar app so they can get on with making models/scenes/images

ShaderOp
06-25-2011, 08:10 PM
I must also point out that 90% of the people I see that say they are sticking behind NT on this also mention that they can't afford to switch over to something else. I of course am not trying to say anything about them but just that NT is being supported by a captive audience.
Maybe that is the case, but for me personally it was the don't-move-my-cheese crowd that was the most prominent in the past few weeks. It doesn't matter if the cheese is way past mature and well on its way to petrified. What matters is that it stays in place and has the same label slapped on it.

After this whole HC thing I've come to believe that the drama is just part of the Lightwave experience. It's like marrying into a dysfunctional family that lives next door. The girl herself is a bit homely and not a spring chicken by any means, yet she's low maintenance and carries her own weight most of the time. But you just can't escape her family's knack for drama and messing with your life.

I wish Newtek and their remaining clients the best of luck, but I'm going to opt for a refund.

And that's two analogies with not a single car mentioned. That should be worth some major XP :)

Apoclypse
06-25-2011, 09:49 PM
That's a different story though, don't forget Softimage changed its owner 3-4 times so far, unlike Newtek. First Softimage, then Microsoft, then Avid, now Autodesk.

The rumors I heard at the time were that XSI took so long to deliver because when Softimage was owned by MS, one of MS big pushes was for XSi to use Windows technology. The main reason MS even bought Softimage in the first place was to establish their NT operating system as a production ready OS. In the end they really didn't have to do that. Big expensive systems like SGI were already on their way out and commodity hardware and OS were starting to make in-roads, which is why MS sold SI to AVID.

Then AVID took what Softimage was doing with their media framework and based their products off of that further delaying XSI. By the time XSI came out the product was not feature complete. It had to be bundled with Sofitmage 3D. You could see the potential in XSI but Maya was already a modern alternative to Softimage 3D and at the time was quite revolutionary in its design. XSI came too late and lost a lot of things that production houses valued at the time, like renderman support(Animal Logic's Softman was rather popular at the time).

It's still a kick ass product. The fact that they have to fight to gain an audience has made softimage do things with the product I don't think they would have done had they became the defacto 3D application.

WyattHarris
06-26-2011, 12:43 AM
So you believe that they can get nodal workflow with history stack and multithreaded everything into LW classic?
The quote from David I'm thinking of.

"The integration has to be incremental, the biggest/most important step being the replacement of the scene/application graph."

When that happens things will probably start moving along of course no indication was given as to how much time this integration will take.

marcuso
06-26-2011, 10:58 AM
Then what about us that make our living with LightWave? We get frozen for a few years?

Tell me about it. I'm still waiting for paper 2.0 to be released. Until that day arrives, I refuse to draw a single thing! ;)

SoulVector
06-26-2011, 12:16 PM
Tell me about it. I'm still waiting for paper 2.0 to be released. Until that day arrives, I refuse to draw a single thing! ;)

:thumbsup: Thats funny! :)

fxgogo
06-27-2011, 02:01 PM
It is sad to see another classic Amiga originated app slowly die. I remember it being the fore runner of the desktop 3D applications. I hope it survives, but it looks to me that the management has no clue what is going on, and it will die soon enough.

If I was a lightwave user, I would move to the heart that was lightwave, Modo.

I am not liking the future of 3D companies. Looks like Autodesk is going to conquer all. Oh dear.

RobertoOrtiz
06-27-2011, 03:02 PM
I disagree with that assestment, strongly.


The whole idea behind this move is to use the codebase on CORE as the principal development enviroment of Lightwave.
Think of it this way,
With CORE we were developing fro mthe ground up a new application, now that codebase is the foundation of the releases of Lightwave from now on.

EDIT

After this whole HC thing I've come to believe that the drama is just part of the Lightwave experience. It's like marrying into a dysfunctional family that lives next door. The girl herself is a bit homely and not a spring chicken by any means, yet she's low maintenance and carries her own weight most of the time. But you just can't escape her family's knack for drama and messing with your life.

But I DO agress with this assestment. Actually it is spot on.

yog
06-27-2011, 03:13 PM
With CORE we were developing fro mthe ground up a new application, now that codebase is the foundation of the releases of Lightwave from now on.
I'm afraid all I'm seeing is a lot of square pegs and a lot of round holes. :shrug:

stew
06-27-2011, 03:25 PM
Good thing NewTek realized their mistake before it was too late. The mythical "rewrite from scratch" is a classic mistake that many people were drawn into before: Things you should never do (http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html)
The other mistake they made, they could not undo: Never announce a product that you can't ship.

This is why many software companies don't have public roadmaps that look far into the future. This is why many software companies ship incremental updates, not complete rewrites.

colkai
06-27-2011, 03:44 PM
With CORE we were developing fro mthe ground up a new application, now that codebase is the foundation of the releases of Lightwave from now on.

Technically speaking, there really isn't a lot different between the two. Indeed, trying to "unhinge" code fro man existing application to replace code can be more problematic than starting from the ground up.

If your code relies say, on certain passed arguments to a function call, then your new code, no matter how written WILL be limited by those same arguments.
You then either re-write the code from the ground up, or start doing "hacks" such as grabbing bits from outside the true scope.

Now, that is NOT to say, you cannot write brand new code from the ground up and make it LOOK as if it is the same as the old code to the user. Which is really, I think what Newtek are up to, NOT trying to shoe-horn new and old code together. (We do it all the time here).

Leastways, I dearly *hope* that's what they are doing and not resorting to hacks to join old and new.

To be honest, that is the argument the "LW Classic" devotees were arguing all along, just it seems to have taken Newtek a fair old while to actually grasp the concept.

Mike Pauza
06-27-2011, 05:12 PM
OT, but please PM me if anyone has Rob Powers email address. Thanks. -Mike

ThirdEye
06-27-2011, 06:19 PM
With CORE we were developing fro mthe ground up a new application, now that codebase is the foundation of the releases of Lightwave from now on.

That's probably the most difficult thing there is, especially if a fundamental part of the team that created the base of the current app has gone and the new ones have to figure out how the old code works. Then they have to take out the old bits that don't work well (probably a shitload of lines of code) and replace them with brand new code without breaking it all. I certainly wouldn't want to be in their shoes. Good luck.

circusboy
06-27-2011, 08:02 PM
The LW faithful asside. What is NT gonna do the bring in new customers?

If I was setting up a new studio now or in the near future would LW stay off the black list
with all this debacle going on? It would be at the top of that list.
How long will it be before they have the magic bullet feature or feature list that makes them the 'one' to buy for the modern 3d studio.
This is something I can't see in the near future and its tough to expand your market share let alone keep it. So how will they grow any time soon?

cresshead
06-27-2011, 08:46 PM
The LW faithful asside. What is NT gonna do the bring in new customers?

If I was setting up a new studio now or in the near future would LW stay off the black list
with all this debacle going on? It would be at the top of that list.
How long will it be before they have the magic bullet feature or feature list that makes them the 'one' to buy for the modern 3d studio.
This is something I can't see in the near future and its tough to expand your market share let alone keep it. So how will they grow any time soon?

when making a list of 3d apps for a production/new studio you'd look at what it can offer NOW not in the future...i get what you mean but really if it offered what you needed now what's the problem?

also lightwave offers low cost per node for rendering and is production proven for high quality fx for tv such as BSG which imo rivalled or surpassed many high end feature film fx.

okay newtek dropped the ball on Core application delivery but that doesn't all of a sudden make lightwave 10 not work does it?

just saying! :D

philnolan3d
06-27-2011, 09:22 PM
Agreed, LW and the shows it's used on still win Emmy after Emmy consistently every year, even without the new tools in Core.

circusboy
06-27-2011, 09:24 PM
True-but renderer aside (LW and Houdini do have the best native renderer 'bang') but say I am spec'ing on software innovations. And price of a renderer might not be an issue. I haven't built the team yet and am influenced on 'breaking news'. Core is gone. So whats left to grab me? The news is there isn't gonna be any news (for awhile).

Unless I happen to hire all right wing LightWaver's by coincidence I'd likely stear clear of this uncertainty. So whats gonna get new customers buying now?

XSI took awhile to get up to speed-but now it has ICE.

kees
06-27-2011, 09:51 PM
I'm afraid all I'm seeing is a lot of square pegs and a lot of round holes. :shrug:

That's really not how software development works.
With a bit of programming, round holes can be made aquare or square pegs can be made round.

I think its a good move for Newtek, the PR side of it is just backfiring a bit, which is a shame for them.

kees
06-27-2011, 09:53 PM
The news is there isn't gonna be any news (for awhile).


You mean like 3dsMax since the last few years? :)

CB_3D
06-27-2011, 10:13 PM
That's really not how software development works.
With a bit of programming, round holes can be made aquare or square pegs can be made round.
.

True, but not without slowing functions down due to passing them through layers of re-interpretations.

ThE_JacO
06-28-2011, 12:19 AM
That's really not how software development works.
With a bit of programming, round holes can be made aquare or square pegs can be made round.
If only.
Re-estabilishing an interface that is widely used across a large project, without a massive hit to readability and maintenance, is one of the most painful refactorings you can inflict on yourself, and one that often turns into spaghetti well before it's even half way.

Beside, people are talking of lines of code, passing arguments and other page10 of sams "teach yourself C++ in 11 days", when the problem at hand is more likely to be that the entirety of the scene graph and the undo management in layout are rotten to the core (no pun intended).
That's not the kind of stuff you can do a switcheroo on trivially, or a square hole you can shave to round.

You can say what you want about LW, but as this Nth thread reinforces, a large part of the user-base still has great drama value coming for free when you join the cult :p

stew
06-28-2011, 06:31 AM
True, but not without slowing functions down due to passing them through layers of re-interpretations.
Except for pathological cases, the overhead of a virtual function call can be neglected. Should it really make a difference in one or two places, then one can still hand-optimize those places specifically.

stooch
06-28-2011, 05:50 PM
well. i sure am glad taht i never bought into the "HardCore" hype and pay for vapourware.

RobertoOrtiz
06-28-2011, 06:17 PM
Actually as a beta tester I have CORE installed in my machine right now.

I can attest it is NOT vaporware.
Is it finished?
Hell no. But it is indeed quite real.
-R

ATAHUALPA
06-28-2011, 06:32 PM
I really like to read all the mail, some of you are right, some not.

For me it's interesting that Lightwave, no matter what happens to the development,
enables me to work in the 3D business since version 3.5 on the Amiga. Not as a hobbyist,
but as a professional modeler. To be honest I've been adding Modo to my work shelf, but still
do 90% of my work in Lightwave. Fact!

In the past month I was very happy to have an application which is seperated into Layout and Modeler. So I could render in one app, while working on the next model. Try this in another 3D app.

Martin
cybersign
www.cybersign.de
www.modelsfrommars.com
http://mechagozillasblog.blogspot.com/

stooch
06-28-2011, 06:50 PM
Actually as a beta tester I have CORE installed in my machine right now.

I can attest it is NOT vaporware.
Is it finished?
Hell no. But it is indeed quite real.
-R

having it installed on your machine and actually having a production tool are two different things. On the production useability front, i would have to say its vapour. The whole concept of hardcore though wasnt necessarily the software anyway, it was the whole communication thing. That seemed to be nothing but hot vapour. anyway, im glad that i put my money on modo.

bloodframe
06-28-2011, 08:29 PM
In the past month I was very happy to have an application which is seperated into Layout and Modeler. So I could render in one app, while working on the next model. Try this in another 3D app.


Open your app-of-choice, set the scene, render, set low priority on app, open new app-of-choice start working on new model. Just saying... ;)

As for Lightwave ,I left it about the time they announced CORE. I was thinking I'll get back to it when they finish it, but I guess that, sadly, might not occur.

Srek
06-29-2011, 06:01 AM
In the past month I was very happy to have an application which is seperated into Layout and Modeler. So I could render in one app, while working on the next model. Try this in another 3D app.
Load scene, start rendering, create new scene, start modelling.
Thats how it works in c4d for over a decade now.

Cheers
Björn

ThE_JacO
06-29-2011, 07:14 AM
In the past month I was very happy to have an application which is seperated into Layout and Modeler. So I could render in one app, while working on the next model. Try this in another 3D app.
You mean like opening two instances of the app, one for rendering and one for modelling, without the hub wrecking havok on either? Possible in any app I know of, in some you can even have multiple scenes with different processes running at the same time.

The layout and modeller distinction doesn't enable you to divide your workflow, it forces you to. The possibility to work on different elements of a scene and having multiple instances of an app or different parts of it running in the background isn't helped by the split, nor a split is necessary for it to work, it's actually hampered by it.

ATAHUALPA
06-29-2011, 07:44 AM
@bloodframe. wasn't thinking about that idea. Just working without setting priorities of my apps.

@Srek: So sorry! Can't believe that I forgot Cinema. Wonderful 3D app.

@THE_JacO: Hmm, I never feeled forced by the way I'm doing it. It really helped me
"The layout and modeller distinction doesn't enable you to divide your workflow, it forces you to". Sorry, can't agree with you on that. It really accelerated my workflow.

Martin
cybersign
www.cybersign.de (http://www.cybersign.de/)
www.modelsfrommars.com (http://www.modelsfrommars.com/)
http://mechagozillasblog.blogspot.com/

Srek
06-29-2011, 08:21 AM
@THE_JacO: Hmm, I never feeled forced by the way I'm doing it. It really helped me
"The layout and modeller distinction doesn't enable you to divide your workflow, it forces you to". Sorry, can't agree with you on that. It really accelerated my workflow.
The point is that this is not by choice but by design. All other methods give you the choice.
If you want to work in an environment where rendering and modelling are possible in one app LW can't help you.

colkai
06-29-2011, 09:33 AM
Actually as a beta tester I have CORE installed in my machine right now.

I can attest it is NOT vaporware.
Is it finished?
Hell no. But it is indeed quite real.
-R
Well, that's a very "optimistic" way of looking at it.
Is it finished? No - and never will be as a *product*, the tech behind it will find its way into the next releases of LW but CORE as a product will not be released.

So by that same argument, any bit of software that ever came out in a pre-alpha or alpha state was not vapourware, though it may never of been released. Realistically speaking though, to thegeneral public, it would be seen as vapourware as it never came to fruition.

The product is dead, but the tech isn't. Though in all honesty, any new tech only dies if it is not feasible to pursue, there are plenty of products which have "evolved" based on prior abandoned theories / directions.

I'm baffled as to why it's took this long to figure all this out on Newtek's part when there were more than enough professional coders who said the new direction was attainable when CORE first was hinted at as the "new baby".

It's been a mess in terms of first upsetting those who wanted LW to grow as it now looks like it may, then after all the work on CORE, upsetting those who like the direction that as taking.
I just hope that the staff & management remains constant long enough to see this current direction through to a decent conclusion.

Bear in mind, the LW re-write has been "in the future plans" since way back in the LW6.0 days. Now that was a disaster you'd think one would learn from. :shrug:

Michael-Williamson
06-29-2011, 09:54 AM
I was a hardcore lightwave fanboy/evangelist and used it professionally from 1996-2006 as my main tool of choice... I introduced it to Criterion games and it was the central pipeline tool for the first 4 burnout games.

(I went freelance in 2006, put 3d work on a backburner and concentrated on painting for a while...) I also switched to linux and accidentally fell into using blender but that's another story)

When Core was announced I got interested again... but didn't sign up... I thought I'd wait and see. It WAS exciting! I thought "good for Newtek!"

When Lightwave 10 was announced I checked out the videos, I got excited again and wondered what happened with core... the more you look the more it seems its a stopgap... hearing that core has been "re-focussed" just doesn't sound like a sound plan at all i must say.

Lightwave has a special place in my heart.

Back in teh day I loved having modelling and scene/animation and rendering seperate... There is something wonderful after all about dedicated modelling apps. Stripping away all the "stuff" that you don't need when modelling is very empowering!

On the other hand, finishing stuff these days really is just much more efficient in an integrated environment... rigging, morphs weight painting/texture painting is just so much better when you can do it on an animated model and see the final result.

Core seemed like it was the right thing to do to me. This just smacks of inability to deliver and a driving need for some cash flow to justify further development. Axing core has to be the stupidest thing I ever heard.

Part of me still wishes that the lightwave renderer could be "standalone", I always loved its speed and quality....but that will hardly solve a thing... making it integrate with max/maya/modo or whatever will take a lot of work... (though I'd love it and would probably integrate it into blender myself if the lightwave renderer api was written and decent!)

As I mentioned earlier; for a long time I've stopped using lightwave. And to be honest I can't see me going back. I really wish that was different but it looks increasingly unlikely.... My fondness for the app really wants it to succeed but the future doesn't look bright I must say.

jorust
06-29-2011, 09:58 AM
Load scene, start rendering, create new scene, start modelling.
Thats how it works in c4d for over a decade now.

Cheers
Björn

And if you do a mistake, you can UNDO. Try that in LW/Layout. :argh:

In all seriousness, LW is what it is and will continue to be so, with all it´s joy and drama. If you like it that way, fine - no problem.

I started adding other tools many years ago and have no plans waiting for anything. I get the tools I need, now, meet my deadlines and keep my clients happy.

Nothing personal and no drama...

philnolan3d
06-29-2011, 05:13 PM
And if you do a mistake, you can UNDO. Try that in LW/Layout. :argh:

What's wrong with Undo? I Undo things in Layout all the time.

jorust
06-29-2011, 05:52 PM
What's wrong with Undo? I Undo things in Layout all the time.
Of course. Sorry for bringing that up...

http://jasonjamesbaker.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/nothing-to-see-here.jpg?w=500&h=245

Locutus
06-29-2011, 10:56 PM
In the past month I was very happy to have an application which is seperated into Layout and Modeler. So I could render in one app, while working on the next model. Try this in another 3D app.

Seriously?
In 3ds max open a scene, set it to render.
Open a new 3ds max scene and start modeling. Big deal.
That's a pretty lame argument, dude. there's nothing special about it. 3ds max has had that ability since I can remember.
:curious:

Locutus
06-29-2011, 11:06 PM
What's wrong with Undo? I Undo things in Layout all the time.
Undo in Layout was an act of pure frustration as Layout wouldn't allow you to undo certain functions. Judging by your reaction, I guess that's not the case any more which is good. However, you know good and well that was the case in older versions of LW.

philnolan3d
06-29-2011, 11:30 PM
Undo in Layout was an act of pure frustration as Layout wouldn't allow you to undo certain functions. Judging by your reaction, I guess that's not the case any more which is good. However, you know good and well that was the case in older versions of LW.

It's not now though, now and the future are what's important.

Locutus
06-29-2011, 11:39 PM
It's not now though, now and the future are what's important.
So you can now key an object's movement in Layout and then ctrl+z to undo a newly created key or succession of keys (one of my biggest annoyances with LW)?

ThE_JacO
06-30-2011, 12:29 AM
It's not now though, now and the future are what's important.
I don't know about 10.1, but I saw a demo of 10 some time ago, and someone asked a (obviously loaded) question during the layout session to undo a keyframe (which wouldn't undo) and then undo some settings on their oddball magic IK blackbox (which crapped itself and twisted out of true beyond remedy).

Going by what someone who makes a living with it was showing it's far from working, and last I checked it was, alongside the scene graph and the (lack of) stacks management one of the biggest, apparently irreparable, hurdles that prompted NT to go for a rewrite instead of trying to fix the current architecture into submission.

If you can set up an IK-Boost chain guide in modeller, bring it into layout, keyframe it to test deformation (God forbid you forget to set the rest poses), and then undo through that and/or go back and tweak it into submission and restore to its original state, then you are managing more with the undo stack than any other waver I ever heard.

philnolan3d
06-30-2011, 12:46 AM
So you can now key an object's movement in Layout and then ctrl+z to undo a newly created key or succession of keys (one of my biggest annoyances with LW)?

I just had to try fit to find out that no you currently can't. I've never needed to do that before.

Locutus
06-30-2011, 12:47 AM
I don't know about 10.1, but I saw a demo of 10 some time ago, and someone asked a (obviously loaded) question during the layout session to undo a keyframe (which wouldn't undo) and then undo some settings on their oddball magic IK blackbox (which crapped itself and twisted out of true beyond remedy).

Going by what someone who makes a living with it was showing it's far from working, and last I checked it was, alongside the scene graph and the (lack of) stacks management one of the biggest, apparently irreparable, hurdles that prompted NT to go for a rewrite instead of trying to fix the current architecture into submission.

If you can set up an IK-Boost chain guide in modeller, bring it into layout, keyframe it to test deformation (God forbid you forget to set the rest poses), and then undo through that and/or go back and tweak it into submission and restore to its original state, then you are managing more with the undo stack than any other waver I ever heard.
Agreed.
So I guess the issues indeed still exist. The problems you stated, along with LW's crappy character tools in general, were the primary reasons I convinced my supervisor to give up on LW. So much for getting an honest answer about NT addressing LW's flaws.

I realize that there has been some good work made with LW by some talented artist, but the fact remains that LW makes things harder than it has to be when compared to other 3d apps.

philnolan3d
06-30-2011, 12:50 AM
Seems silly to give up to me. I just downloaded the free rigging tutorial DVD that came with LW10 and so far it's amazing. Your fact is funny too since most of it's users find that it makes things easier to do a lot of stuff.

Locutus
06-30-2011, 02:17 AM
Seems silly to give up to me. I just downloaded the free rigging tutorial DVD that came with LW10 and so far it's amazing. Your fact is funny too since most of it's users find that it makes things easier to do a lot of stuff.
Not silly at all. I quit using LWs poor excuse for character tools after LW8. Just got fed up with having to use so many work arounds just to get them to work the way they were supposed to.
It was frustrating because I was teaching Lightwave, but using 3dsMax for my side/freelance projects. My students would see the work I was doing in 3dsMax and the differences were painfully obvious to them. They saw greener grass and wanted it. I can't say that I blame them.
Now granted, the character tools HAVE gotten better in LW10, but its too little too late to consider going back to using them again. Especially with more efficient rigging solutions in 3dsmax and Maya.

philnolan3d
06-30-2011, 02:46 AM
"to me" it's silly that's all. I'm pretty happy. Sure there are a few things I'd like, but not as much as I'd like in some other apps.

Cageman
07-01-2011, 07:37 PM
Agreed.
So I guess the issues indeed still exist. The problems you stated, along with LW's crappy character tools in general, were the primary reasons I convinced my supervisor to give up on LW. So much for getting an honest answer about NT addressing LW's flaws.

I can totally understand that for many, LWs character tools are hard to use. And, as you say, in LW8, there wasn't that much in LW that offered a great value for money.

That said and done, during LW9.x series and also LW10.x, there was a a buttload of work done regarding the shading, rendering, lighting and displacements aspects of the package. Those enhancements alone are well worth the $800 pricetag that also gives 999 renderlicenses for free.

So even if you absolutely hate LWs rigging; with the native support for both MDD and Autodesk GeoCache format (and PC2 if you download a free nodepack called DPKit), you can defenately start to benefit using LWs renderengine in conjunction with your other render engine(s).

I really like that!

:)

Locutus
07-01-2011, 08:44 PM
I can totally understand that for many, LWs character tools are hard to use. And, as you say, in LW8, there wasn't that much in LW that offered a great value for money.

That said and done, during LW9.x series and also LW10.x, there was a a buttload of work done regarding the shading, rendering, lighting and displacements aspects of the package. Those enhancements alone are well worth the $800 pricetag that also gives 999 renderlicenses for free.

So even if you absolutely hate LWs rigging; with the native support for both MDD and Autodesk GeoCache format (and PC2 if you download a free nodepack called DPKit), you can defenately start to benefit using LWs renderengine in conjunction with your other render engine(s).

I really like that!

:)

Well, like I said its too little too late.
I have a LW10 license, I'm not impressed. Not enough improvements to warrant going back. This is where LW should have been 5years ago.
Even today, there are still LW users going to other packages for character rigging.
Thanks but no thanks.

Cageman
07-02-2011, 03:56 AM
Well, like I said its too little too late.
I have a LW10 license, I'm not impressed. Not enough improvements to warrant going back. This is where LW should have been 5years ago.
Even today, there are still LW users going to other packages for character rigging.
Thanks but no thanks.

Well... I talked about using LW as a rendering solution for tools such as Maya/3DS Max and XSI (you still do your character rigging/animation in those packages).

Locutus
07-02-2011, 05:05 AM
Well... I talked about using LW as a rendering solution for tools such as Maya/3DS Max and XSI (you still do your character rigging/animation in those packages).
Why?
Those programs have multiple, production proven, renderers that are outstanding.
There isn't anything in Lightwave that I can do that can't be done in the programs I use. I realize that Lightwaves claim to fame has always been it's quality renderer, but that card can't be played anymore.
IMO, there's no reason at all for anyone to SWITCH to using Lightwave if they are already using a full featured 3d program.
Unless they taking a job that requires using LW.

philnolan3d
07-02-2011, 05:08 AM
Why?
Those programs have multiple, production proven, renderers that are outstanding.
There isn't anything in Lightwave that I can do that can't be done in the programs I use. I realize that Lightwaves claim to fame has always been it's quality renderer, but that card can't be played anymore.
IMO, there's no reason at all for anyone to SWITCH to using Lightwave if they are already using a full featured 3d program.
Unless they taking a job that requires using LW.

How about nearly unlimited free render nodes?

fez
07-02-2011, 08:08 AM
In addition to unlimited render nodes and mature/dependable nodal surfacing, Layout 10.1 offers greatly optimized interactive rendering and deforming meshes/subds (plus, the proven Core R&D promises to make future versions of LW much, much faster). It also supports advanced FBX features and native Autodesk animated mesh cache formats, so 10.1 can fit neatly into Max pipelines (and, I assume, Maya and XSI).

LW10 was respectable at first glance but did not really hold up in production. After the release of 10, I literally stopped using Lightwave. LW10.1 is a totally different story. An awesome release IMO. Not fit for all projects but still great and getting better all the time.

Cageman
07-02-2011, 03:09 PM
Why?

Less expensive and less hassle with renderfarms. No need for license servers setups (which is very tricky and timeconsuming). I've seen how PITA it is to get certain third party tools for Maya to work correctly with the license server when you start to involve a renderfarm.

Those programs have multiple, production proven, renderers that are outstanding. Sure they are, with tons and tons of work required for things to work on the renderfarm. For a small team that consists of artists rather than technicians, I can wholeheartedly reccomend LW as a light/shade/render solution.


There isn't anything in Lightwave that I can do that can't be done in the programs I use. I realize that Lightwaves claim to fame has always been it's quality renderer, but that card can't be played anymore.
LWs renderengine can certanly outperform Maya/MR with similar content without too much technical knowhow. In order to optimize MR, you have dig quite deep, and in the process you loose time.

Pixomondo who are doing the VFX for the new upcomming Terra Nova TV-series, moved the production over to LW for two reasons:

1) The client was shown examples from Max/vRay and LW, and the client liked the LW-renders more
2) The speed in which the quality is reached by the artists.

EDIT: Just wanted to clarify that they are using Maya as the animation package, and a mix of Maya and 3DS Max to deal with some FX-work, while most 3D is lit/shaded/rendered with LW.


IMO, there's no reason at all for anyone to SWITCH to using Lightwave if they are already using a full featured 3d program.
Unless they taking a job that requires using LW.
I never talked about switching, I talked about adding LW as a rendering solution. It is quite easy, these days, and a totally untechnical workflow, to get assets out of Maya and into LW for rendering (or vice versa if that happens to be the case). Not sure why you seem to think of it as a bad thing. Each renderengine has its flaws and its superior sides. Having a choice is much better than not having it, right?

RobertoOrtiz
07-02-2011, 04:55 PM
Great post.

I use also Lightwave as part of a multi package solution.
I models mostly in LW but I do organic modeling in Zbrush.
And we might add Maya for our character animation pipeline.

Guys these are tools, not a religion. It is not all or nothing.

-R

ThirdEye
07-02-2011, 06:52 PM
Guys these are tools, not a religion. It is not all or nothing.

This made my day.

RobertoOrtiz
07-02-2011, 06:54 PM
I know, but the sword cuts both ways..

I like Lightwave, but I know its limitations.
:)
-R

Locutus
07-03-2011, 08:59 AM
Less expensive and less hassle with renderfarms. No need for license servers setups (which is very tricky and timeconsuming). I've seen how PITA it is to get certain third party tools for Maya to work correctly with the license server when you start to involve a renderfarm.

Sure they are, with tons and tons of work required for things to work on the renderfarm. For a small team that consists of artists rather than technicians, I can wholeheartedly reccomend LW as a light/shade/render solution.


LWs renderengine can certanly outperform Maya/MR with similar content without too much technical knowhow. In order to optimize MR, you have dig quite deep, and in the process you loose time.

Pixomondo who are doing the VFX for the new upcomming Terra Nova TV-series, moved the production over to LW for two reasons:

1) The client was shown examples from Max/vRay and LW, and the client liked the LW-renders more
2) The speed in which the quality is reached by the artists.

EDIT: Just wanted to clarify that they are using Maya as the animation package, and a mix of Maya and 3DS Max to deal with some FX-work, while most 3D is lit/shaded/rendered with LW.


I never talked about switching, I talked about adding LW as a rendering solution. It is quite easy, these days, and a totally untechnical workflow, to get assets out of Maya and into LW for rendering (or vice versa if that happens to be the case). Not sure why you seem to think of it as a bad thing. Each renderengine has its flaws and its superior sides. Having a choice is much better than not having it, right?

It's not about choice being a bad thing.
It's about LW coming up short on the important tools I need for my workflow. There's no point in me using an app that has tools which are inferior to what I'm using now. I understand LW has a groovy renderer, but LW rendering prowess is of no concern to me.
I understand and respect that there have been some improvements, but the it's too little too late.
Newtek took to long to properly update LW.
For my personal and freelance work, I never used LW....just too much of a PITA and it slowed down my workflow.

Peace. :cool:

DanielWray
07-03-2011, 09:43 AM
Perhaps NewTek could turn this around to their advantage.

A re-write of the modeller would be a good start, this could be done in the background with a small team (more efficient, look at Blenders re-write, it's taken from 09' to 11' to go from the first line of code to a fully re-written, and stable application) while most of the up-front work goes into upgrading the layout part of the program, I think this part of the program is quite useful and intuitive as it stands, although later on once the modeller has been re-written the attention from the small team could then be focused onto re-writing the core of layout, which would allow for modular approaches to the rest of the program, perhaps having API's for specific tasks to allow developers in the community to develop fully integrated plug-ins & add-ons, which would take some of the burden off NewTek and allow them to focus in on the features most required by the majority of users.

I'm not too sure of the direction they will take, I personally do not like Lightwave all that much after having to use it for a 3D modelling project at University, I found the modeller to be very, very clumsy compared to other applications, layout faired a little better though, but if they can introduce a modernized (workflow & UI!) modeller then I can see it becoming one of the main packages again, even if only used as part of a pipeline for modelling.

evolross
07-15-2011, 06:19 PM
I was disappointed when CORE's cancellation was announced, but all is not lost.

But if they can successfully gut the existing program from the inside out and integrate Modeler, then I think Newtek may still have a lot of innovation to offer. It's interesting because Lightwave is once again entering into a phase of 3rd Party Plugin development offering A LOT of amazing functionality and innovation that the off-the-shelf app lacks and a lot of it is free:

Fluid Simulation - http://www.jawset.com/index.php
(http://www.jawset.com/index.php)Advanced Dynamics (Coming Soon) (PhysX, Bullet, Cloth, Shattering) - http://www.hurleyworks.com/media/flash/EngineTest/EngineTest.html
(http://www.hurleyworks.com/media/flash/EngineTest/EngineTest.html)Advanced Buffer Rendering (free) - http://dpont.pagesperso-orange.fr/main_en.htm
Realistic Sun/Sky Environment (free) - http://dpont.pagesperso-orange.fr/main_en.htm
Multi-Pass Rendering (now free) - http://www.lwpassport.com/
(http://www.lwpassport.com/)Advanced Instancing (free) - http://dpont.pagesperso-orange.fr/main_en.htm
(http://dpont.pagesperso-orange.fr/main_en.htm)CAD Modeling - http://www.wtools3d.com/product.php

On top of these innovations, Newtek has been focusing heavily on Fiber rendering in 10.1 along with CA, VPR, and cross-platform interactivity. So we'll see. We die-hard Lightwave users may get by afterall.

SheepFactory
07-15-2011, 06:38 PM
So you can now key an object's movement in Layout and then ctrl+z to undo a newly created key or succession of keys (one of my biggest annoyances with LW)?

I had to use lightwave for a two week animation gig and it nearly pushed me to heavy drinking to cope with the stress and frustration. It is a terrible software for animation.

RobertoOrtiz
07-15-2011, 06:58 PM
I will not defend the program in that area.
The biggest hole in the Lightwave toolsets is its animation toolsets.
(thus my big love for Softimage)

-R

pluMmet
07-16-2011, 02:21 AM
(thus my big love for Softimage)

-R

And there was a loud Hosea and the sky parted and the angels began to sing. :applause:

:)

CGTalk Moderation
07-16-2011, 02:21 AM
This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.