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projectcoil
10-27-2003, 09:05 PM
Scrap model that I made and no longer updated. I reverted back to an older version. There were a lot of errors with the anatomy and the hair was brutal, but this is a render I did of it.

http://projectcoil.dyndns.org/evocative.jpg

details
http://projectcoil.dyndns.org/evocative2.jpg

projectcoil
10-27-2003, 09:26 PM
Frustration, Tension? Feel free to share a thought.

Rhid1en
10-27-2003, 10:04 PM
technical aspects aside; however you do definately need to fix the hair, as you do keep in mind your character and what it is you're trying to convey. Right now, it's not reading as any definate feeling of emotion one way or another. It's hard to tell if she's in love, being touched by someone else, sad with her own hand to her head, has a head ache, soar tooth, or what? Try really pushing her expression for that which you had in mind and then we can talk more about making the lighting more dramatic to also help tell your story.

Pi3141
10-27-2003, 10:10 PM
In terms of emotion, Your characters head looks too straight, and takes away from the fact that her hand is supporting her head.

Her eyelids are closed as if in deep thought, but her neck is tensed up.

It seems to be contrasting in emotions at the moment.

projectcoil
10-27-2003, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by Pi3141
In terms of emotion, Your characters head looks too straight, and takes away from the fact that her hand is supporting her head.



Great suggestion!


Her eyelids are closed as if in deep thought, but her neck is tensed up.

It seems to be contrasting in emotions at the moment.


Ya, I had problem with some morphs.

projectcoil
10-27-2003, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by Rhid1en
It's hard to tell if she's in love, being touched by someone else, sad with her own hand to her head, has a head ache, soar tooth, or what?

Actually, that's general vicinity I had in mind.

MarkSnoswell
10-27-2003, 11:37 PM
details, details ... I know this is rough now, but in this pose, with the eyes closed you need to put more visual cues into the face. More for us to "read" her face. Wrinkles in the forhead and around the coreners of the eyes. SOme moisture and life to the skin. Texure ... whateve. Basically a score of little things that a real living, breating and thinking girl would have.

In many ways an extreeme close up like this can be as hard as a technical piece to get right on the emotional and story level -- as the average human viewer is just so good at reading faces!

Be very clear what it is your are trying to convey -- as in writing, apply the KISS principle "Keep It Simple Stupid". Know what the main thing you want to convey is and do every dammed thing you can to support that.

projectcoil
10-27-2003, 11:49 PM
Thanks for the critque. As soon as I perfect the geometry, I'll move on to textures.

Snitch
10-28-2003, 01:32 AM
ya looks awsome, i seem to like the hair for some reason, maby its just me :S, also the lip stick on her lips seems to be put on to perfect, its just one perfect line going above and below her lip, maby thats possible, just seems to stand out to me.

tjbeseda
10-28-2003, 03:23 AM
to me that hand seems to be someone elses. someone who she may love. but also she is tense. perhoas she is nervous or afraid as well as deeply touched. im not sure. there is a bit of conflict here....and the hair, lol, u gotta fix it. but i do like the general idea.

Annuostivix
10-28-2003, 07:30 AM
hm, if this wasnt in a forum for helping people with the emotion side of things, I'd say everyhting was looking ok except for the hair. But when I really look at it, I agree with the suggestion that this could be someone elses hand. The hair of course, you know how that is. But if you made it limp when you were done, it would add to an effect suggesting she was worn out or hurting. Actually... all in all, I would like to see limper hair. But for now I like it a lot, the idea is good. I can't help a lot aside from that, so good luck :)

A_Makkai
10-28-2003, 11:40 AM
Technically:
The hair is to thick, and don't shadow the face. Ther's no ore very little texture in the skin. The eye brows grow down instead of an arced up-side. The I lashes grow all over the place. The Lipstick edge is to sharp.
As fore the pose:
The hand is a right hand, coming from her right side, making it impossible to be anyones els es hand. (unless there standing behind her, which wold then make it a small Houdini act.) Maybe lover the hand, tilt it up and tilt her head in to it. The center of wight shod be over the lover palm. Try the pose out and you'll get the point. Work with the face more. Get some facial expression other the real doll look.
Emotionally:
Its just a portray. You'll see billions of these every day. CG has a lot more to offer. This image would do a lot better as a photography, were its a lot easier to get the suptile emotions. But if getting close to it is your challenge (and its a fair one) Give it some background. Leave more space in front, ore behind the face. Its centered in frame making it a boring composition.


Aron Makkai

Garma
10-28-2003, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by A_Makkai
Its just a portray. You'll see billions of these every day. CG has a lot more to offer. [/B]

I'm sorry I certainly have to disagree here. In exposé 1 are a couple very good examples of portraits that have a lot of emotions in them. It's just very hard to create those emotions.

For the image, the technical matters destroy the overall feel a little. Fix the lips (look like plastic - sorry :/) and the hair (too thick and it goes through the nose).

after that, consider these suggestions:

You want her to be in love and dumped right? That's what I make up about your reaction.

1. close her mouth
2. bow her head down a little
3. fix the arm, rotate it more towards her body.
4. consider giving her other colors on her lips and her hair. This way she looks bitchy, which conflicts with the overall feel you want.
5. post processing in photoshop

Try opening her eyes a little, maybe you can get her gazing at some point in infinity.

good luck

mjb2
10-28-2003, 04:23 PM
the eyebrows and eyelashes are thin and wirery, making it hard for me to really take in the emotion of the expression. The super close-up only makes that aspect of her face more obvious.

projectcoil
10-29-2003, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by A_Makkai

Its just a portray. You'll see billions of these every day.

Got to hate it when people have nothing better to say but to make comments to belittle your work. Continue to lower the morality of this world and the bleaker life will get.

A_Makkai
10-29-2003, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by projectcoil
Got to hate it .

Stop spreading your hate, the world is full of it anyway. Instead concentrate on the rest of the post. :-)
Sorry if I offended you. That was never my intension. Maybe you wanted some feedback on you image, since you sent it to this forum.
And my opinion is that CG portrays of girls rarely are evocative at all. Often my only emotion is: This medium is so misused.
Is it impossible do discus the topic of this forum, without offending people? Maybe this is the wrong forum for me? It seemed a lot better then the other ones with ten head banging smilies as a reply to some lower end CG. But I have lots of better things to do then unintentionally offending people.
Aron

projectcoil
10-29-2003, 02:10 PM
There was nothing in your post that others have not said or I have not mentioned. If you had taken the time to read the entire thread before joining the discussion than you would have clearly seen the hair, the hand, and the texturing had already been stated. Since you don't like looking at portraits of woman, I can't really count your opinions having any weight at all.

Other than that, some people are just piss off bloody offensive.

leigh
10-29-2003, 05:17 PM
Hey guys, please keep personal sentiments regarding users (and not art) out of this thread.

Thanks!

MarkSnoswell
10-30-2003, 02:03 AM
First and last warning ... any comments that are more personal then constructivly critical must be emailed personally.

Projectcoil -- cool it.



General free advice to everyone:

You give a talk, show a picture, or write something that reaches 1,000 people say. 990 people are happy, agree and don't say anything, 9 people bother to say the liked it -- and yet you get all tied up over the one negative comment you do get. Now how stupid is that? ... you'r spending all this emotional energy and focusing on this small minority.

This is something I learned in a Career Track seminar on Stress Management. -- so just chill and dont loose perspective. ... especially with art ... Diferent people, differnet opinions and perspectives.

Ziye-Liu
10-30-2003, 09:42 AM
The hair has no shadow?

A_Makkai
10-30-2003, 10:13 AM
Maye I sod elaborate on that one.
Don't know what softwear this was rendered in, and its quite irrelevant, but generally its technically hard and render expensive to get such fine geometry, ore procedural curve rendering to cast shadows. The hair appears to not cast a shadow on to the skin, making the ear look to bright. And shadows, render expensive as they might be, always gives depth to the image. In a still (as apposed to animation) the per frame render time is not that big a deal, so its definitely worth getting some shadows in. That will get rid of the self eliminating inside of the mouth ass well.
And pleas do not get offended. :-)

Aron

projectcoil
10-30-2003, 06:29 PM
.

Pi3141
10-30-2003, 09:57 PM
I keep finding myself comming back to this peice, which is a very good thing. It means it's making me think, whether or not you wanted to provoke that, you've done it. Which for that you are to be commended.

A good idea when wanting to provoke emotion, is to put yourself in that position, physically and mentally. Think those thoughts yourself, hold your body in the manner in which your character is to be posed.

Does it feel natural? Does it fit with what your thinking? What feels awkward?

I have just done so for your character. I found myself doing a few things that I think would work really great with your character here.

As we've already spoken about, the head should be titled slightly forward, to enhance the feeling that her head is resting on her hand. And if her hand is holding the weight of her head, you should kink the wrist slightly, and tense the veins in the wrist.

Also, in terms of the hair. I would think that if one was in deep thought, with their mind processing information, good or bad, fast or slow... one would want to be comfortable. Does the hair hanging down in her face look comfortable to you? I'm sure it wouldn't be.

I'd find myself brushing my hair back behind my ear on the left, especially if my head was tilted towards my hand on the right. It's never comfortable to have hair slapped against your face like that. It also implies a nervouseness about her, whether or not you want to provoke this or not is your choice. But I feel it would fit pretty well.


Her mouth is also open, she appears to be taking shallow breathes through pursed lips, which would tend to dry the lips out. Although these sound like stupid little details, they are these details which totally enhance emotion within an artwork and instead of the viewer looking for the emotion, your going to give it to them, force them to feel what you want them to feel when they view your piece. Those little details make the emotion powerfull, to the point that it cannot be denied.

Another question for you. Is she daydreaming? Or in deep concentration? These details are important to show in order to carry the emotion across correctly.

If she is in deep concentration, tossing and turning ideas over in her head, tilter the browline down just a little where the brows meet in the middle. This will help carry that through.

projectcoil
10-31-2003, 12:47 AM
I had a lot technicalities making the image, most of which I think I've solved. It was left in the back burner for a while and I worked on my dragon.

The hand, mainly the wrist was too thick, which might have indicated it was a man's hand or someone elses. Saslite cast shadow took a big hit on rendering time so it wasn't enabled for this image. Radiosity also took a chunk of rendering time, in doing I didn't have as many previews as I had wanted to. Hair, making guides was also a problem. Eyebrows and eyelashes, previews. Those could have been solved with hairspray a $99 plugin and $499 with full version of sas, but I couldn't justify spending $598 on hair at that time.

For now, I think a few textures, couple of beauty passes, and some extra props will suffice.

Originally posted by Pi3141
Is she daydreaming? Or in deep concentration?

She’s well… pondering. Pondering the living and life. Purpose, principle, reason, function, intent. Moralities, and formalities. Are her moralities her own? Are the formalities necessary? What was? What is? What of to come? Is the world at a loss? What is to gain? Who is to benefit? Why the struggle when the outcome is for certain?

leigh
10-31-2003, 01:02 AM
Saslite cast shadow took a big hit on rendering time so it wasn't enabled for this image. Radiosity also took a chunk of rendering time, in doing I didn't have as many previews as I had wanted to. Hair, making guides was also a problem. Eyebrows and eyelashes, previews. Those could have been solved with hairspray a $99 plugin and $499 with full version of sas, but I couldn't justify spending $598 on hair at that time.

Surely a few hours of rendering time are a small price to pay for a work of art that lasts a lifetime? :)

The same thing with the hair guides. Just spend a few hours on it, a few extra hours aren't going to hurt you in the long run.

Incidently, I think the hair is doing the image more harm than good. It's way too thick and coarse - almost like straw or hay.
Perhaps you could try another technique of doing the hair? There is a great tutorial on NewTeks site on using polys for hair, and it works really well. Also much quicker on the shadow rendering ;)

Anyhoo, I'm kinda going into the technicalities a little too much, which is not what this forum is for.

With regards to the actual emotion within this image, I think I might be the only one here who seems to think that the expression on her face almost looks like she's received some bad news. Or she may be worn out from something really stressful.

There is a strange tension to her, I think it's because of the fact that she is resting her head in her hand like that, that makes me think of frustration or stress of some kind.

Or perhaps I'm imagining it.

projectcoil
10-31-2003, 01:36 AM
Originally posted by Leigh
Surely a few hours of rendering time are a small price to pay for a work of art that lasts a lifetime? :)

The same thing with the hair guides. Just spend a few hours on it, a few extra hours aren't going to hurt you in the long run.

Incidently, I think the hair is doing the image more harm than good. It's way too thick and coarse - almost like straw or hay.
Perhaps you could try another technique of doing the hair? There is a great tutorial on NewTeks site on using polys for hair, and it works really well. Also much quicker on the shadow rendering ;)

Anyhoo, I'm kinda going into the technicalities a little too much, which is not what this forum is for.

With regards to the actual emotion within this image, I think I might be the only one here who seems to think that the expression on her face almost looks like she's received some bad news. Or she may be worn out from something really stressful.

There is a strange tension to her, I think it's because of the fact that she is resting her head in her hand like that, that makes me think of frustration or stress of some kind.

Or perhaps I'm imagining it.

I had some feathers in the background made up of around 200,000 points and it actually took 2 days to render a full image.

I'm still playing with sas. I've seen some good results from it. Polys don't look as nice in close up, and I'm not that great a painter.

Her emotion, yes, you're probably right.

leigh
10-31-2003, 01:45 AM
Originally posted by projectcoil
I had some feathers in the background made up of around 200,000 points and it actually took 2 days to render a full image.
[/IMG]

That's insane. Why are you using radiosity anyway? You don't seem to be going for a realistic image, but a more stylised one, so you should try and think of another way of lighting it. There are a lot of alternatives to radiosity that work just as well, and render much faster :)

There's no point in waiting days for renders when there are much faster solutions to a situation. Check out the spinning light trick, or even using area lights (although Sas doesn't render shadows from area lights, so you have to render the shadows in a seperate pass, which I actually prefer because it gives you more control).

Anyway, I'm rambling about technicalities again :P

projectcoil
10-31-2003, 02:14 AM
Originally posted by Leigh
That's insane. Why are you using radiosity anyway? You don't seem to be going for a realistic image, but a more stylised one, so you should try and think of another way of lighting it. There are a lot of alternatives to radiosity that work just as well, and render much faster :)

There's no point in waiting days for renders when there are much faster solutions to a situation. Check out the spinning light trick, or even using area lights (although Sas doesn't render shadows from area lights, so you have to render the shadows in a seperate pass, which I actually prefer because it gives you more control).

Anyway, I'm rambling about technicalities again :P

I plan to make it as realistic as possible, radiosity gave it a nice effect. I'll see what I can do with your suggesions. No time for browsing though.

Pi3141
10-31-2003, 02:16 AM
This is a little off topic of emotion, and provoking emotion so I will keep it brief.

If realism is what your going for, you really need to come up with an alternative for the hair, and the skin of the character does need alot of work.

I look forward to some updates !

projectcoil
10-31-2003, 02:22 AM
Originally posted by Pi3141
This is a little off topic of emotion, and provoking emotion so I will keep it brief.

If realism is what your going for, you really need to come up with an alternative for the hair, and the skin of the character does need alot of work.

I look forward to some updates !

Yes, I still have textures to do.

slaughters
10-31-2003, 07:22 PM
I like the hair in the original post !

Buck the trend of well groomed CG women. That sort of straggly, unkempt hair adds to the impact of someone looking like they are over stressed, or being pushed toward their limits.

You might actually make some parts a little longer and add some limpness to it. See if you can also add a dull, oily sheen to its texture.

projectcoil
11-01-2003, 02:51 PM
Thank you for the comment. I like the hair as well.

leigh
11-01-2003, 06:23 PM
Projectcoil, I'm having a hard time understanding why you have posted these renders in the Evocative forum.

There are a lot of technical issues that still need to be dealt with in this work, and in light of that I think you're going to have a hard time getting anyone to focus on the emotive facet of this piece.

Furthermore, you have offered little to no information about the emotion that you are wanting to portray.

If you are in agreeance, I'd like to move this to the standard WIP forum.

The idea of the Evocative forum is to take pieces of work that are technically finished (or possibly just still in need of minor tweaks) and make them that much more substantial by enhancing their emotive message. You don't seem all that interested in suggestions, even for improving the technical problems with this image, let alone any comments regarding the emotive side. So why post it here?

I'd like to clean the forum up a bit to keep it on track.

projectcoil
11-01-2003, 07:51 PM
I would agree if I didn't already have a work in progress thread running consecutively in relation to this model. I have received a lot of critical input that are of great value to me otherwise I would not have received in a work in progress thread. I might not seem like it, but I am very interested in these suggestions. I've read the critics' suggestions and wish I had made longer responses but just I simply lack the time while I am making those adjustments. I believe many people have commented on the emotions of the protagonist portrayed here, and they are very near, if not exact to I had first envisioned. Perhaps I haven't properly replied to their comments, which is why this matter has brought up.

I would post a fuller image to converse, but I don't wish to disclose it so early on.

Project Coil is a larger development I am working on. You may call me Gord if you like.

leigh
11-01-2003, 08:02 PM
Okay, cool, thanks for responding, Projec... ummm I mean Gord :)
I'll leave the thread here then!

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