Medieval Structures

[megalmn2000]

Adding ambient occlusion to your texture will add more depth and interest to your mesh. It will sell the form and the volume of your house. :)

[benfclark]

Thank you for the advice Megalmn. I will try a few out later, just got the demo of CrazyBump, which has proven to be incredibly useful, and produces ambient occlusion as well as normal and specular maps.

Is there anything you think I could improve on structure-wise? Do you think the model is of a quality you would be happy with in a game?

[megalmn2000]

Honestly, if you're aiming for next-gen games, not for the moment. But it will come with practice. Your texture also need the specular map, which make a huge difference on the surface because it separate the kind of material for each object (ex: metal, plastic, carbon, etc...). From where I see, there's almost no specular on your house. Also, ALWAYS looks at photo reference, because you can't have more photorealistic than that and you can see all the tiny details that makes a difference. Also, it's important to tell a "story" behind each object : who are the people that's gonna use it, how is the weather, how old is the bricks... this kind of stuffs really makes your house integrate better with the "story" of the game. That will also determine how dirty is your house. Hope that help.

[benfclark]

Thanks, will give some of those a try. For reference, the buildings in this setting will be relatively new and contemporary, meaning that any sort of serious weathering and dirtiness will not be present.

[benfclark]

I added some specularity to the materials on the structure, it adds somewhat to the quality. Do you think this helps improve? Note that the engine I am using does not (as of yet) support Ambient Occlusion mapping.

http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/6770/tavern04.jpg

[megalmn2000]

Better now. You can see that the material can pop up more and it gives more interest to your object. If your engine doesn't support ambient occlusion in real-time, try to bake the occlusion map and then blend the map to the diffuse.

[benfclark]

Good to hear, I am a bit of a perfectionist, and I am always looking for ways to improve my work. Hoping to build up a proper portfolio soon too.

AO seems to be an upcoming feature for the engine, so I will hold out and wait for that, or perhaps render in Unity as well.

I added some crates and other objects to help create a scene, the Tavern itself being the city's prime gathering location means that there will be a lot of storage containers about, giving the feeling of it being constantly running low on supplies. I will upload an image shortly.

[megalmn2000]

Use this to bake your maps:
xNormal (http://www.xnormal.net/1.aspx)
It's free and very powerful. It bakes your normal map, ao, cavity, etc...
I use it a lot on my workflow.

[benfclark]

I actually have that installed, will check out the baking features. Thanks :)

[benfclark]

New image, some props to give it some populated feeling, as mentioned earlier.

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/9130/tavern05.jpg

[kromano]

What distance will you be from the building in game? If it's for something like an RTS it's probably working well, but if you're getting right up close and personal with it then the roof line needs work. It's extremely square and perfect. The shingles wouldn't line up so perfectly and flat, especially along the edges. Take a look at old farm houses and try to mimic the roofline.

[benfclark]

Here is an update, with some irregularities in the structure and some AO baked onto the diffuse.http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/2489/tavern05h.jpg

[megalmn2000]

Maybe it's me but I don't see ambient occlusion on the mesh.
Maybe try to duplicate the ao layer more?

[benfclark]

I used Photoshop's 'Multiply' blending option on the AO map, will try it again a couple times perhaps.

Thank you for the feedback so far, I want to do the best I can with this stuff.

[urgaffel]

Did a paintover with some ideas. More dirt where the wood meet the plaster, make the straight roof more in line with your texture and making things more saggy. You could also add more colour to it than I have, instead of white plaster add a bit of yellow, blues etc to show it is aged

[GeeDave]

Did a paintover with some ideas.
Forgetting something Urg? :D

Also, I don't see you over at MF much these days!

[Neil]

I think the lighting is what's hurting it the most. But yes, add more variations to the wood and siding. Show some weathering wear/tear.

[benfclark]

Will look into dirtying the plaster where it meets the wood, looking forward to your paintover Urg, I like having some visible objective to work towards.

[ikarth]

I think the lighting is what's hurting it the most. But yes, add more variations to the wood and siding. Show some weathering wear/tear.

This. Some specific things: As has been mentioned, the plaster looks too clean and uniform. Right now it sticks out. Might try making it a little less glossy too. Also, I glanced around for reference pictures and the examples I saw had the walls less recessed from the timbers. Not sure how it would look on an actual 14c building.

The wood grain on some of the vertical beams is horizontal; to my eye this looks wrong. You might want to look up medieval building techniques for ideas here.

The texturing is worlds better than the first post, so you're making visible progress. And I'd agree that the lighting is going to have a huge affect on it at this point.

[kromano]

The wood grain on some of the vertical beams is horizontal; to my eye this looks wrong. You might want to look up medieval building techniques for ideas here.I noticed this as well. The horizontal grain suggests stacks of thin blocks rather than a single, strong beam.

[ikarth]

I noticed this as well. The horizontal grain suggests stacks of thin blocks rather than a single, strong beam.

Exactly. Since wood grain is derived from tree rings, you can't get this kind of horizontal pattern on a single-piece vertical beam, unless you had some kind of giant tree.

[benfclark]

Done an update, changed a few things and rendered it using V-Ray.

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/6072/tavern1.jpg

I am considering making it a bit more architecturally variant, perhaps cutting away the left side and having a different section there.

-Benfclark-

[kromano]

I'm still not noticing the ambient occlusion. Could you share a side-by-side with and without AO for comparison?

The changed wood looks more natural, good work.

[benfclark]

That one was without baked AO all together, let me re-upload.

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/6072/tavern1.jpg

[megalmn2000]

Still missing the AO but this looks much better than the first one.

[benfclark]

That WAS with the baked AO on the bricks and roof tiles. I got an AO map in CrazyBump and layered it over the original, used the multiply blending method.

[ikarth]

Flipping between them, the AO is there. Multiply it over itself if you want to push it a bit more, though at this point style considerations take precedence, since you want it to fit in with the rest of the game assets.

The shield and the barrel above the door could use some attention. The shield is a bit too clean, so it stands out. The barrel is the same color and intensity as the wood beam behind it, so it's getting lost. Depending on what the shield is made of, you can probably up the specular on it a bit and add a gradient to its texture. The barrel can be made to stand out in several different ways.

The plaster/daub wall texture is looking better, but the stains are unmotivated. On a real building, the marks would reflect the surrounding beams. Think of it this way: the wall has been there for years, even the tiny difference in its environment would have had a visible effect by now.

Looking way better than your first set of pics. Keep at it.

[benfclark]

I think currently the AO is fine how it is, don't want to overdo it. I will look into having more of a pattern to the plaster dirt, and I will change the texture on the barrel wood, make it stand out some more.

Thank you for the advice so far, it's been of great help. Although the game project in question has been cancelled, I will still continue to work on this set of structures for practise, and for conceptualisation.

[kromano]

I'm sorry to hear the project was cancelled. But do keep working on it, it'll be good practice and could work for a portfolio piece.

The white plaster looks like it was made using a fractal noise layer multiplied onto it and this has kind of stood out as odd to me. I'd reduce the contrast of the noise layer, if possible, and work on moss/mildew/mould growth close to the wood where water would pool during rain storms.

Assume that the plaster mostly repels water, the wood is likely untreated since this is a medieval structure, so it would absorb a healthy amount of water (I'm no historian so maybe they hit it with tar or whatever to prevent that) but still, that would leech into the surrounding materials and promote grime to form. Like in my bathroom sink! ...I should really go clean that out.

[benfclark]

I was looking at images from a game for inspiration, the art style more-or-less matches what I am going for, just wondering how I can make my work on a level like that.

http://www.gnostaria.com/images/gallery/gallery36.png

[kromano]

Well, that reference image, for one, is a more cartoon-like style. It uses more photo reference for the textures with increased contrast and saturation. There has been a fair bit of the dodge and burn tools, especially around the corners of the materials. I doubt most, if any, of the shadowing on the houses are caused by the game engine so there is a lot more ambient occlusion on the house as well. The shadows cast by the houses are likely from the engine, though.

There are very few straight lines, the curves and sags in the roof are greatly exaggerated for effect. Even the house itself doesn't go straight up and down, there's a slight bias in the supports. There is very little uniformity in the shape. The roof supports that you see only a small piece from peeking out from under the roof come out at different angles. Add to that the render itself is further enhanced with effects like depth of field which make the houses more interesting again.

Yours is a more realistic looking approach. You have straighter edges and less saturated colour in the materials giving it a less "warcraft" look. Try taking your structure and placing it into an environment similar to the reference shot you sent. Add in a nice skylight which will give good, smooth shadows and see how it looks in comparison. Doesn't have to be perfect, but look at it in context with a presumed game world.

[benfclark]

True, I should probably stick with my current style, I am just eager to make it a quality graphic. I will look into those changes mentioned earlier.

[benfclark]

Here's an update, added a little more dirt to the shield and the various other stuff mentioned.

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/6072/tavern1.jpg

[megalmn2000]

This is what I mean by ambient occlusion. Use xNormal or Maya texture render engine to provide thoses shadows on the mesh. AO made from CrazyBump are only giving you more contrast on the texture, but don't make the mesh the correct contrast and shadows.
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x155/megalmn2000/Untitled-1-1.jpg

[ikarth]

This is what I mean by ambient occlusion. Use xNormal or Maya texture render engine to provide thoses shadows on the mesh. AO made from CrazyBump are only giving you more contrast on the texture, but don't make the mesh the correct contrast and shadows.


Ah. I missed that and assumed that the AO included geometry AO, not just texture AO. In that case, I definitely agree with needing AO.

[benfclark]

Thank you for clarifying! I will boot up xNormal later and have a fiddle about... Besides that, does the plaster and barrel look good?

[megalmn2000]

This tutorial should help : http://eat3d.com/free/xnormal_overview
After baking the AO, simply put the AO layer to multiply.
The plaster looks too cloudy. Also, the scale isn't good too. Go to CGTextures and try to scale up the texture until you get the same results as the picture you want to looks like.

[benfclark]

Thanks, trying out xNormals baking feature now, pretty good stuff for a free software package. Am deciding to keep the plaster how it is, not going to style it like the Gnostaria image.

[Neil]

I was looking at images from a game for inspiration, the art style more-or-less matches what I am going for, just wondering how I can make my work on a level like that.

That image is very bright/warm, while yours is dull and gray, so yours will look more 'flat', and lack contrast.

[urgaffel]

Well that's weird. I uploaded the paintover as an attachment to the post I made earlier but it seems to have gone missing. Sadly I deleted the picture since I didn't think I'd need it anymore >_<

Anyway! My paintover was basically to make things sag more. Like the roof beam could sag, and to add more detail to the roof shingles so you actually model the edge, something like this:

|___
____|
_|_
___|
_|
|_
__|

And to add a bit more colour variety in your textures, maybe a bit of yellow to show age and faint green here and there to fake moss or something...

[benfclark]

It's been a while, as I have been tied up with exams and the like, but they are over now, and I have begun adding some architectural variation to the structure. Here is a preview:

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/1087/tavern06.jpg

[Mr Whippy]

Looking much better with variation.

Just make sure all wood grain goes along it's length too, since that is how the wood is used.

Maybe add more variation to longer larger bits of wood, as they wouldn't have used huge trees and trimmed them down to just get a straight piece of beam.


What kind of 'story' is the piece of work for (as someone mentioned earlier)? If this is in a town, then the overhang might be larger as you go up levels, however, if it's more rural that may have been less obvious (though I have a feeling it may have been due to tax on footprint of the building that made people extend out after the ground floor?!)
Things like that will make a difference so do consider the story of the building as per the earlier advice, and then it will end up being easier to get the look you want and expect :D



Ageing the building if it's a brand new medieval public house isn't ideal either. I'm sure these buildings looked quite nice when they were originally constructed.

We always consider old things to have been dull, old paintings, tapestries etc, but it's clear from research that many old things, when they were new, were in fact very vibrant and colourful!

Consider how it looked new, if it is indeed a new building! The wood may have been more honey coloured, and the rendering might have been pure white, or an off-shade... what we see today on maintained historical buildings may not be what they looked like at the time...


Thanks

Dave

[kromano]

We always consider old things to have been dull, old paintings, tapestries etc, but it's clear from research that many old things, when they were new, were in fact very vibrant and colourful!

Consider how it looked new, if it is indeed a new building! The wood may have been more honey coloured, and the rendering might have been pure white, or an off-shade... what we see today on maintained historical buildings may not be what they looked like at the time...
I've been thinking of exactly that as I've read suggestions to weather the building a bunch. I think that it would be fairly vibrant in many areas, however I'd imagine dirt and something mildewy would collect in the edges. I wouldn't make the entire structure pristine, but I also wouldn't weather the entire structure too much either.

[benfclark]

Here's the texturing so far, unfortunately my attempts at AO in xNormal produced results that did not map properly onto the mesh, so I have abandoned that for now.

http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/9130/tavern05.jpg

[greevar]

Your textures are lifeless. Put some color variation on them, they're too uniform and it makes the tiling stand out. Add some variation to the bricks and roof. Also, that stucco texture looks like you just put a render clouds on it.

Your stucco should also have some surface detail. It doesn't look like any real surface, just some render clouds. No surface is pure black or white. Give it some hue and dial back the blacks to something around 10% above pure black.

Add weathering to you textures, especially your roof. It should have rust or water stains near the peaks and valleys. The bricks should also have weathering and dirt on them where mud has splashed onto it from hard rain and passers-by.

Use reference and try to approximate the features of each surface. Get lots of reference and study it. Find out why each surface looks the way it does and how it responds to light. Your wood specular value should be almost 0%. Either it's dry dull wood or it's varnished and shiny.

The bricks should have a brighter highlight than the wood, but still very diffused (dull highlight). The roof should be similar to the bricks. The stucco should be somewhere between the wood and the brick.

The glass should have a very strong highlight (about 90%-95% white) and should have a high glossy value (sharp highlight).

[benfclark]

Thanks for the feedback greevar, I will look into it, seems that I have my work cut out for me, I must admit texture creation is not a strong point of mine.

[urgaffel]

Are you rendering it out with a skylight? If so, have you set the colour to white? It seems all your renders have a blue tint which makes it harder to judge the textures (although it could be my monitor but I doubt it). Create a sun light just to give it some life. Or just show a screenshot from max with the flat shaded option (the one where there's non light, can't remember if that's the right name for it). You don't really need to render it out.

[benfclark]

@Urgaffel, I am not currently rendering it with a skylight, I will try and configure one soon.

@greevar, I don't quite understand all the stuff you suggested, but I am trying a different texture for the brickwork. Here's a look so far http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/9130/tavern05.jpg

[Mr Whippy]

Looks better!

Don't forget you can probably use decals quite cheaply these days. Ie, a sheet of generic 'grime' textures with transparrency that you can overlay around the bottoms of buildings (creeping moss/damp etc)... other random stains, etc etc...

Hmmm

[benfclark]

Tested out some grime and moss on the roof edge

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/9130/tavern05.jpg

[benfclark]

Hey, I am back with a different roof texture to add some colour variation, I am also testing some lighting.

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/2792/tavern01.jpg

[Mr Whippy]

Looking better!

I would like to see the tiles line up on the bits of roof that meet at right angles.

Also, the roof seems to sag in the middle, but the top tiles don't bend down with the ridge. The tiles also seem to get longer (top to bottom) towards the bottom of the roof.

Little details that are just in the UVW's, but will make all the difference :D


Have you been working on any other buildings? I remember doing some medieval buildings about 5 or 6 years ago for a project, and it was very time consuming. By their nature they are not perfect, and modelling/texturing in imperfections that look realistic can be harder than making a perfect modern building!


Keep up the good work :D

Dave

[kromano]

The normal map is really bringing a lot of the details to life. It might be a little too much on the wooden beam supports, but looks good. I would second Mr Whippy's comments about adjusting the UV mapping so the roof tiles sag with the roof line and getting the tiles to meet up a little at the intersecting corners.

[jekyll]

Nice,
You can add other details as well. Wear and tear on the wood, soot stains, shutters, window flower boxes, and iron hooks come to mind.

Also, you can add vines or moss structures by downloading the free Ivy generator:
http://graphics.uni-konstanz.de/~luft/ivy_generator/
...and then loading your base model into the scene. Then generate some plants on different faces of the building. Save each, then load everything back into your program and take pics with the plants and then map the pics onto your texture base.

And of course save seperate files in case you want to do other plants.

You can see an example at:
http://www.gfx-3d-model.com/2008/06/house-04/#more-326

[benfclark]

Thank you for the positive feedback, here's another few renders in Torque 3D, will see to UVW adjustment soon, perhaps some more wear and tear as well.

http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/2792/tavern01.jpg

http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/4417/tavern02.jpg

http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/5436/tavern03.jpg

[jekyll]

Looks good.
Torque 3D huh? My favorite engine. I must of missed that in an earlier post.
Not sure about the stones, but the AO and lighting looks cool. I wonder what it would look lit in a night scene? Dark and stormy night... splashing through puddles clutching a cloak while getting to the pub...

Are you going to have physics for the barrel so it can swing? What about flags? Interior? Lanterns?

I believe back in the medieval times they would nail up a branch of fir or some other plant over the doorway to show that the ale is fresh. Can't quite remember it correctly though. That might be something to think about too.

[benfclark]

I'll look into more details, variation can really make a model look good. I think I might change the stone texture again, the current one looks out of place, I'll get one that is a similar colour though.

Update: Changed the stone texture, think I've nailed this one.

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/6770/tavern04.jpg

[urgaffel]

That stone looks a lot better. You've got stretched texture on the edge of the roof though, you might want to fix that :)

[benfclark]

Thanks, I'll look into the stretching, and the tile lineup at the edge of the main roof bit.

Update: Here we go, looks a lot better. Also began to add a bit of curvature to the wall corners, will work more on that soon.

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/6770/tavern04.jpg

[kromano]

It's really coming along well now, great improvements! I think it'll really come together as you finalize the last of the UV changes. You've really managed to eliminate the obvious repetition in the plaster, the new stone looks very good, very appropriate and the curves in the roof tiles have really fixed up everything that was noticed in earlier posts.

[benfclark]

Thank you very much for the feedback, I will keep refining this thing, hopefully make a scene out of it at some stage. Here's an update with a different plaster texture, took a look at TES4: Oblivion for some reference. Also testing out wooden supports on the stone walls.

http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/9130/tavern05.jpg

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