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Ciuccio
04-09-2011, 11:27 AM
Ok, I don't want start a wishlist or other complain, but I would like know, if possible, where will go Softimage, don't want insult in any way development work or blame SI capability.
Now I think ICE development is almost finished (I think they will add Hair and some trimming here and there, some new node or something), and then? I'm more impressed by Nitro viewport then ICE modelling (or stop button), I don't say ICE modelling is not a good enhancement, but I don't use ICE (and like me I think many other) so, for my need, I prefer a more "traditional" upgrade (improvement in rendering, modelling, workflow ecc.). So, with a finished or almost finished ICE, where SI will move in a near future? Any rendering improvement? Do AD buy Modo and then integrate it in SI? (this is a joke, but nothing is impossible when have money :D )
Ice modelling will improve SI modelling tools? I don't know, but Houdini has a most complete set of procedural modelling, from years, and I don't find any nice modelling tools in it (with all the respect for Houdini and his user, it is all IMHO).


In SI 2012 found in File menu a useful "send to 3dsmax", not an exporter, you need, I think, an installed 3dsm copy, so you can have many other possibility (nitro viewport, many rendering options and plugin), but hey, a solo artist cannot buy, upgrade and study all this (complex) software for a single (or two) feature.
If this is the AD strategy ("dear customer for a modern, all around and update software buy all our three major software), I think a hobbyst and oneman studio like me must think to migrate to other software (modo, blender or Lightwave) or don't waste money and don't upgrade at all

I'm a zbrush user, and GOZ lack for SI was for me a bad joke. In 2012 the "send to mudbox" convinced me to give a try to mudbox, then I looked the mudbox tag price, and returned back to my nice gosoflitimage lite...

Hirazi
04-09-2011, 11:49 AM
I think it's way too early to tell, what interesting things the user community will come up with now they have the power of ICE modeling in their grasp. But it would sure be interesting to know where Softimage is going, although I doubt you'll get a straight answer.
Although I am not a ZBrush user, the lack of a GoZ for Softimage surprised me also, especially when one thinks back at a time, not so long ago, when Softimage and Pixologic seemed the best of friends.
And before you migrate make sure the grass actually IS greener on the other side... ;)

xsisupport
04-09-2011, 12:33 PM
In SI 2012 found in File menu a useful "send to 3dsmax", not an exporter, you need, I think, an installed 3dsm copy, so you can have many other possibility (nitro viewport, many rendering options and plugin), but hey, a solo artist cannot buy, upgrade and study all this (complex) software for a single (or two) feature.
If this is the AD strategy ("dear customer for a modern, all around and update software buy all our three major software), I think a hobbyst and oneman studio like me must think to migrate to other software (modo, blender or Lightwave) or don't waste money and don't upgrade at all


"Sent To" is part of the Suite workflow. It's all about Entertainment Creation Suites, not separate products.

oktawu
04-09-2011, 12:52 PM
Need not worry bro.
even though they won't admit it, and even if the SI dev team are doing their best at what they can, it's pretty obvious for everyone that in order for autodesk to maintain and justify the development of 3 packages that practically do the same thing, they have to separate features between them. (see the current iray and dmm fiasco). Now i know autodesk is just another corporate a.., but in the greater scheme of things, looking at it logically, it's the only way to keep developing these 3 apps. The other option would be to cannibalize one or two of them, dump them, and add that to the third. And you have to keep in mind, this is not the r&d team's fault. They do what marketing tells them to do. And for now, their way of getting xsi to customers is to bundle it along side the other two, and focus on ice as it's selling point. I know it hurts every xsi'ers ego out there, but it's the harsh reality of efficient marketing strategies. Another option is to start widening your skillset, and start looking at other packages. Preferably not autodesk related (C4d and Houdini also come to mind).
But instead of seeing the empty half of the glass, be glad that xsi is still around, and hopefully will be for quite some time, if this strategy pays off and leads to higher profit. Of course it sucks for the freelancer, but hey, welcome to planet earth. Living the hard social human life since 50.000 bc.

Ciuccio
04-09-2011, 02:22 PM
"Sent To" is part of the Suite workflow. It's all about Entertainment Creation Suites, not separate products.
I don't say no, I say only AD suggest me to buy the other two major app. if I want a more complete, modern ad update application.
There is no crime if they want sell more, and there is no crime if I don't want spend more (especially when I think I brought a so expensive package for doing all).

Now i know autodesk is just another corporate a.., but in the greater scheme of things, looking at it logically, it's the only way to keep developing these 3 apps.

Totally agree, and I say thanks to autodesk, because now SI cost less then the AVID time (I talk about advance edition) and Facerobot (a 99,000 dollars plugin) is integrated practically for free (I don't use at all, but is nice talk about this feature when you meet a Maya fanboy :D ) and don't forget XSI has the usual most solid stability, regardless the addition AD want.
But hey, I prefer the old Avid commercial price, but have a new release with all around package evolution, XSI the centre of my work (world), and not listen AD sentence like: "have you archiviz needs? there is 3dsm"
I must think it is the some from the other side, when a 3dsm user need nice render pass or less crash (I was going to write "a faster viewport ... but now they have one :) ).

I know it hurts every xsi'ers ego out there, but it's the harsh reality of efficient marketing strategies. Another option is to start widening your skillset, and start looking at other packages. Preferably not autodesk related (C4d and Houdini also come to mind).

No no... I cage too many software in my life (start with Blender, then Lightwave, so Modo and now XSI... I don't want turn back to any, I like too XSI way of life :) Do you have try modelling in Houdini? IMO, a terrible experience (for my taste, worse then 3dsm)

But instead of seeing the empty half of the glass, be glad that xsi is still around, and hopefully will be for quite some time, if this strategy pays off and leads to higher profit. Of course it sucks for the freelancer, but hey, welcome to planet earth. Living the hard social human life since 50.000 bc.

:D :D Simple way is stopping subscription... with the some money I will upgrade LW and Modo and buy some other little nice software, and again, agree, for big studio can be good news, for a freelance is too heavy

SLiTHER
04-09-2011, 06:38 PM
I don't want to start a rant here, well it is a rant, but my rant, my sole opinion :)

I want to comment on one thing, allot of people are happy about the ICE modeling extension, by all means, it's their right, i would too if i was still relying heavily on Softimage. Now most users see this as the Light of Truth shinning on everything, the ultimate revelation so to speak. I would want all to be cautious about that. Roughly 3 years ago Artists where chanting on the miracles ICE Kinematics will bring if it was there, well SI team delivered last year, thankfully the earth is still moving! On another note, Houdini had and still has node based modeling, rigging, simulating, shading, compositing, rendering and maybe text messaging these days, yet the earth is still moving!

I guess what I am trying to say is this, it doesn't matter if AD keeps throwing bread crumbs every year and package these bread crumbs as apples, they are still bread crumbs at the end of the day. Yes ICE is the mother of technology and damned hey who doesn't acknowledge it, guys seriously, let's not over react over things you'll barely use, I still yet to see the revolutionary ICE Kinematic solution that changed the face of the industry, as far as i can tell, after one year! we are still in our place.

AD has set a strategic development and marketing decision, build once, divide into pieces and spread over a decade. if someone else is close to the competition, buy the sh*te and package it with the rest. Well they did try to be creative i have to admit, Democrotising the development :applause: We get to vote on which bread crumb we want this year :applause:

My take on the subject, if you can't live by AD rules, just drop them and move on, if you can, great for you and don't listen to any ranting.

Cheers

Ciuccio
04-10-2011, 02:12 PM
@SLiTHER I think the AD development is more slow then AVID days.

I'm cannot follow this upgrade style and multi software interpolation autodesk vision. I'm a freelance, so I need an generalist software. IMO 3000$ for a freelance is the right price, 9200 $ for 3dsm+xsi+mudbox (without subscription and without maya) are a "bit" too expensive.

Now I doing some SI 2012 test and viewport lag in complex scene (SI 2011 manage it without issue) and render time rise too much (in some case, I cannot understand why , procession and rendering time are 50% slower or more) in comparative analysis then 2011 (but if I use unified sample my render time return similar to old version... my subscription seems a great affair (AD voice: "don't worry dear customer, you can use the 3dsm nitro viewport and rendering Maya mental ray), so I'm pretty sure, don't renew my subscription.

So, XSI, where are you going ?

Although I am not a ZBrush user, the lack of a GoZ for Softimage surprised me also, especially when one thinks back at a time, not so long ago, when Softimage and Pixologic seemed the best of friends.
yes... anyone know why?
hey Pixologic, do you have interest in buying softimage? :)

Hirazi
04-10-2011, 03:22 PM
@SLiTHER I think the AD development is more slow then AVID days.

Well, I don't think that's necessarily true. I'd rather say Softimage focused its new development (too much?) on ICE, in which quite a lot was achieved in a relatively short time IMHO.

Now I doing some SI 2012 test and viewport lag in complex scene (SI 2011 manage it without issue) and render time rise too much (in some case, I cannot understand why , procession and rendering time are 50% slower or more) in comparative analysis then 2011 (but if I use unified sample my render time return similar to old version... my subscription seems a great affair (AD voice: "don't worry dear customer, you can use the 3dsm nitro viewport and rendering Maya mental ray), so I'm pretty sure, don't renew my subscription.
I personally haven't had the chance to test SI2012 yet (waiting for the boxed version), but from several posts on the different forums I gather there probably will be some hotfix releases soon. But then again, there always have been some problems with Softimage (even in the Avid XSI days, anyone remember XSI 6.0???) with the initial release. After the first bug fix release (or the second in case of XSI 6.0!) things started to look way brighter...
;)

RebelPixel
04-10-2011, 03:45 PM
The problem with Softimage in my opinion is the ICE-centric development, ICE is powerful yes, but it is not easy at all, really it is a nightmare for freelancers and new people to learn and use it, it requires an insane amount of time and we all know how few tutorials there are around.

I was waiting ICE modeling and well welcome it with open arms, but after taking a look at it, i cant really say it is easy.. actually is really difficult.
On some sample scenes i've opened some compounds developers left there and to just make some "basic" stuff there are like 40+ nodes.

What i mean is, you should push ICE tryin to give a cutting edge high end technology to the big guys who are pro with coding but also to normal users wich in this case are cut out from the game, again because there isnt any optimization or help into use ICE, and well because ICE itself is something hard by default to learn.

Considering that the other section of the software arent updated by years, i can share the same feeling of Ciuccio.

You can say hey modeling section didnt get updated but dont worry, many users will come up with amazing great compound with ICE modeling. Well i've heard this a lot and to be honest...its not really an excuse to avoid developing something, and frankly how many tools would you suppose to find around? Also i am forced to wait for something that is not even certain it'll happen.

Regarding the suite path autodesk took, i'm strongly against it, because its insane you need 10k softwares to do things that you SHOULD be able to do with 1 software alone.
Well cant really blame AD for trying to squeeze clients and make more money selling the suite instead of developing a software 360° degrees.

In the end, i'm happy Softimage got ICE but what i dont like about ICE is the difficulty and the almost complete lack of help in terms of tutorial and actual examples into using tools.
Also as i said i dont like that now everything is ICE, there are so many things Softimage needs update that if you stop a second to think about them you'll get shocked.

-Browse images (most of the time you cant see a preview of the texture you are importing, we are in 2011 come on....go check out cinema 4d how it works redgarding this)

-Viewport, we cant even see shadows in viewport..and we run with 3k hardware machines and run videogames with cutting edge tech, and we cant see simple bump/displacement/texturing/shadows in viewport is kinda meh

- rendering, lately every release of Soft got problems in MR, now there is a pre-calc problem wich hangs the software, there are still lots of features not implemented.

- modeling, we got same tools since xsi 1? i mean..there is no need for me to make a giant list of the stuff Softimage lacks in terms of modeling tools, compared to maya/modo/3ds max.

- Hair is dead? shave and haircut got dropped? its still the old version, no development, nothing.

Sometimes i think the beta testers are only big studios who 1) doesnt use Mental Ray at all, because its absurd that you release the software with a so evident bug 2) they only use ICE.

In the end, Softimage is not really the tool for freelancers, its gonna just be ICE centric and a plugin to do VFX, connected with 3ds max and maya, and thats it, you can say wahtever you want but this is the reality of facts, and this is what Autodesk is doing.

/cheers Rob

Hirazi
04-10-2011, 03:58 PM
Please don't misunderstand me: I'm not saying the fact Softimage has focused on ICE since version 7 is necessarily a good thing, I'm just saying their has been quite some development going on during the AD days (granted, primarily for the sake of enhancing ICE).
;)

pooby
04-10-2011, 04:22 PM
The problem with Softimage in my opinion is the ICE-centric development, ICE is powerful yes, but it is not easy at all, really it is a nightmare for freelancers and new people to learn and use it, it requires an insane amount of time and we all know how few tutorials there are around.

I was waiting ICE modeling and well welcome it with open arms, but after taking a look at it, i cant really say it is easy.. actually is really difficult.
On some sample scenes i've opened some compounds developers left there and to just make some "basic" stuff there are like 40+ nodes.

What i mean is, you should push ICE tryin to give a cutting edge high eQnd technology to the big guys who are pro with coding but also to normal users wich in this case are cut out from the game, again because there isnt any optimization or help into use ICE, and well because ICE itself is something hard by default to learn.

Considering that the other section of the software arent updated by years, i can share the same feeling of Ciuccio.

You can say hey modeling section didnt get updated but dont worry, many users will come up with amazing great compound with ICE modeling. Well i've heard this a lot and to be honest...its not really an excuse to avoid developing something, and frankly how many tools would you suppose to find around? Also i am forced to wait for something that is not even certain it'll happen.

Regarding the suite path autodesk took, i'm strongly against it, because its insane you need 10k softwares to do things that you SHOULD be able to do with 1 software alone.
Well cant really blame AD for trying to squeeze clients and make more money selling the suite instead of developing a software 360° degrees.

In the end, i'm happy Softimage got ICE but what i dont like about ICE is the difficulty and the almost complete lack of help in terms of tutorial and actual examples into using tools.
Also as i said i dont like that now everything is ICE, there are so many things Softimage needs update that if you stop a second to think about them you'll get shocked.

-Browse images (most of the time you cant see a preview of the texture you are importing, we are in 2011 come on....go check out cinema 4d how it works redgarding this)

-Viewport, we cant even see shadows in viewport..and we run with 3k hardware machines and run videogames with cutting edge tech, and we cant see simple bump/displacement/texturing/shadows in viewport is kinda meh

- rendering, lately every release of Soft got problems in MR, now there is a pre-calc problem wich hangs the software, there are still lots of features not implemented.

- modeling, we got same tools since xsi 1? i mean..there is no need for me to make a giant list of the stuff Softimage lacks in terms of modeling tools, compared to maya/modo/3ds max.

- Hair is dead? shave and haircut got dropped? its still the old version, no development, nothing.

Sometimes i think the beta testers are only big studios who 1) doesnt use Mental Ray at all, because its absurd that you release the software with a so evident bug 2) they only use ICE.

In the end, Softimage is not really the tool for freelancers, its gonna just be ICE centric and a plugin to do VFX, connected with 3ds max and maya, and thats it, you can say wahtever you want but this is the reality of facts, and this is what Autodesk is doing.

/cheers Rob

What have I not covered here? I think it should get anyone (truly interested) up to speed in ice
http://vimeo.com/album/1518800

Ciuccio
04-10-2011, 04:43 PM
What i mean is, you should push ICE tryin to give a cutting edge high end technology to the big guys who are pro with coding but also to normal users wich in this case are cut out from the game, again because there isnt any optimization or help into use ICE, and well because ICE itself is something hard by default to learn.

Not so hard as seems at first impact, but in general I full agree with your sentence. Look this tutorials:
http://vimeo.com/album/1518800

Considering that the other section of the software arent updated by years, i can share the same feeling of Ciuccio.

I think we are more then two unhappy users :)

You can say hey modeling section didnt get updated but dont worry, many users will come up with amazing great compound with ICE modeling. Well i've heard this a lot and to be honest...its not really an excuse to avoid developing something, and frankly how many tools would you suppose to find around? Also i am forced to wait for something that is not even certain it'll happen.

IMHO, if XSI will be more and more popular we will assist a something similar to 3dsm: many (commercial) plugin to plug holes. If not (I mean the user base will not grow) we can look to Houdini: years of procedural modelling and no one tool (IMHO) can be compared to XSI best modelling tools (or Modo).

- Hair is dead? shave and haircut got dropped? its still the old version, no development, nothing.
don't remember where read, but Hair will be next ICE checkpoint, in this release they rewrite\integrated Syflex in ICE, for this reason I would like know what we can aspect tomorrow, because seems ICE end its run with the major integration (kinematic, modelling, cloth, particle). SI 2013 cannot be only ICE hair... or do we will see a navigation cube fully ICE integrated :D ?

2) they only use ICE.
I think this quote is the central issue. During acquisition days someone spoke (with apocalyptic pain) about the possibility ICE split from XSI and integrated in maya/max. Autodesk CEO (I'm not sure if was CEO or not) in a 3dworld article answered some questions about and said how stupid was this option (and impossible, too difference in the code between XSI and max/maya). Now, my pain is this: not possible detach and attach ICE from an application, but it is possible evolve interoperability from the three software and transform the entire XSI/ICE in a Max plugin...

In the end, Softimage is not really the tool for freelancers,
and what is the perfect freelance tool? 3dsm? Maya? Did SI born like generalist software or not?



Some months ago I was pretty sure AD don't want lose the (poor?) XSI userbase, and acquisition was a good event for XSI. Now I think no. If Maya userbase loses the acquisition pain, after years XSI users cannot be (IMHO in major part) be happy and secure about AD route.

But then again, there always have been some problems with Softimage (even in the Avid XSI days, anyone remember XSI 6.0???) with the initial release. After the first bug fix release (or the second in case of XSI 6.0!) things started to look way brighter...
Ok, see your point and agree, wait. But for me cage less or nothing if I stayed in XSI 2011 and the idea I waste my subscription money remains...

pooby
04-10-2011, 09:17 PM
In the end, Softimage is not really the tool for freelancers,

This doesn't really make sense. If the freelance job position requires The artist to use Softimage, which some do, then Softimage surely is a tool for freelancing, as is any other tool. All will adhere to the same rule.

There are more Maya freelance positions, of course, and more Maya freelancers competing for the same post. In the end it makes little difference. The important thing is the relative demand in your working location.

If you had said, "Softimage is not really the tool for generalists", then the proposal makes more sense. Yet I would disagree and point out that these things are quite subjective. From my perspective, I have a tool that , without any coding; through ICE and Soft's excellent original set of tools, I can command it to manipulate geometry to levels of sophistication I could only have dreamed about in other packages I have used; and I can experiment and invent at lightning speed. making it the perfect tool for me.

ShaderOp
04-10-2011, 10:03 PM
There was a Maya vs. Softimage discussion on the mailing list a while back, in which a wise sage said this:

Maya is a great platform that is now trying to be a good product, while Softimage is the reverse.

I think that sums up Autodesk's current strategy for Softimage: All the releases since the acquisition have focused mainly on providing us end users with building blocks with which we can make our own tools. Maybe ICE was the focus of previous versions, but 2012 does bring a few powerful additions to the SDK, like the ability to draw directly in the viewport for example.

On one hand this makes a lot of sense. I guess the more customizable SI is the more likely it's going to get integrated into production pipelines in bigger shops. And more clients are always a good thing.

ICE and a more open SDK also mean that third-party developers have the opportunity to step in and bridge whatever functionality is missing in SI. I don't think Max would be nearly as useful without the plugins developed by third-parties. I remember a time when it seemed like every new version of Max was just a collection of external plugins bought and integrated--rather poorly--into the main application. Lightwave also strikes as an example of an application that absolutely depends on third-party plugins to keep it chugging along.

In that light, I think that focusing on the SDK and ICE is actually a good thing, and brings Softimage more in line with the other applications that are often used by lone wolves and small shops (e.g. Lightwave and Max).

But on the other hand, all of this is for naught unless third-party development kicks into high gear and a healthy ecosystem develops around it. It's happening with tools like Momentum 2.0 and Mootzoid's lineup of tools, but it's not happening fast enough to keep everyone happy. Maybe our community is just too small for developers to make a living selling tools for Softimage.

tl;dr: ICE is good, but only if people start writing and sharing or selling production-worthy tools with it :)

Hirazi
04-10-2011, 10:15 PM
The one thing I don't understand (although one hears it a lot), is the implication that good/great tools
should automatically be commercial tools, like Momentum 2 & the Mootz' stuff.
The Softimage community is a very active bunch (as one glance at rray.de (http://rray.de/xsi/) easily proves) and there is a large amount of user-made custom tools around. Don't forget, for instance, the Kristinka toolset, to name just one...
There is always room for more, but the worldwide Softimage community have provided us all with a lot of tools already. We don't necessarily need third-party commercial developers (although it's always nice if more would emerge), we need a better way to point everyone to the amount of tools that are already available. rray.de is a brilliant website, but even that is only the tip of the proverbial (dare I say it?) ICE-berg.
;)

ShaderOp
04-10-2011, 10:50 PM
ICE-berg.
Did you trademark that phrase yet? Because I would so buy the T-shirt :)

Seriously though, I think we have two main problems with the free plug-ins: One is that there was no central database for them, which is no longer an issue thanks to rray.de (http://rray.de). And the other is poor documentation. And I'm sure there are many gems out there that I and many others are not using simply because the documentation and presentation don't do them justice.

As someone who has written and shared a couple of plugins in the past, I can say from experience that coding is usually the fun part and it's totally worth doing for free if the project is small enough and the idea is neat enough. It's writing the documentation and polishing the presentation that is the insufferable part of the process. So I do sympathize with all plugin contributors out there if their documentation is lacking. But still, most tools out there are desperately in need of better docs.

oktawu
04-10-2011, 11:07 PM
there are some things about softimage dev that still baffle me even to this day.
take the wacom issue, okay, so stephen stepped in with a workaround...but mind u,
it's just a hack, it's not a real fix. how on earth have people been doing heavy work
with xsi and tablets in large production environments is a mistery to me...
second, and this has been discussed a billion times, is ascii scene file access.
now i know for hobbyists and freelancers, this is no biggie (though in 2011, with all
the complexities of current projects, it should be). it was and still is (besides multiplatform
support and lack of a large userbase) one of the main reasons why xsi hasn't set foot in large productions. how on earth do others deal with it, again, is beyond me (say animal logic?).
i have first hand experience of the wonders of having direct access to a scene in ur notepad, and trust me, it is huge. i've been using this software since 1.5, thats almost 11 years, and i love it to death, but there are things, that seem like taken out of a scifi movie, when it comes to its development. like the current hiatus with disconnected shaders (and this has to be the creepiest, nastiest, and most long lasting bug ever in a 3d app), or a tale from the past, i remember when v5.11 came out, and the syflex pins were broken. we were like...how on earth did this get past the beta?? did no one run cloth sims in any project, anywhere on the beta? i mean, that stuff is just beyond weird... (on the upside, it got fixed asap).
don't get me wrong, i wholeheartedly admire the dedication and amazing skills of the dev team, in doing what they are doing with ice, but there are other things, that have been needed since version 1, that are still being asked for to this day. so i dunno, slap those marketing fellas a little bit, and shake some sense into them :)

Ciuccio
04-10-2011, 11:31 PM
first of all thanks to pooby for his really good Vimeo channel :)

From my perspective, I have a tool that , without any coding; through ICE and Soft's excellent original set of tools,
You said the best XSI part is ICE, ok, I don't say no but Houdini is, in this field, a (significant) step forward. Like you I find XSI tools excellent, but if AD don't update this tools (and many are the some from 6.5) this become, release after release, obsolete or copied and improved by other software, because XSI tools are excellent, but not perfect so a improvement margin is possible and must be reach (and software like Modo may be an example).

Oktawu said this a the only way for XSI to survive. After this 2012 release, I think, AD must improve other XSI point, cannot doing other ICe evolution (ok, they can but the margin now is more limited). So, as discussing in this topic, my fear is about AD marketing: they don't want improve other aspects because, in example, improve XSI animation capability will disturb Maya marketing and the creative suite selling (why buy all three software if can doing all perfectly in modern way whit only, more cheaper, XSI?)

So, do XSI take the FX route (field where software like real flow and houdini are really too strong)?

Little note, creative suite (XSI, 3dsm or maya, motion builder and mudbox) cost 7500 $, comprensive subscription, in any case too high.

don't get me wrong, i wholeheartedly admire the dedication and amazing skills of the dev team, in doing what they are doing with ice, but there are other things, that have been needed since version 1, that are still being asked for to this day. so i dunno, slap those marketing fellas a little bit, and shake some sense into them
Why? My idea is dev. team don't listen the userbase, at all, but only marketing department (or big studio requests). For this reason I don't ask any support by developments team, but would like only know what is the XSI route.
Under this aspect I'm a bit nostalgic, company like Luxology have a more empathic attitude with their customers.

oktawu
04-10-2011, 11:59 PM
So, do XSI take the FX route (field where software like real flow and houdini are really too strong)?

this has been a long beaten horse since before the ice days...and the truth is
xsi will never break into the houdini market. but what it can break in, and has done so,
is the freelancers/small studio market. problem with that is, not much revenue there.


my fear is about AD marketing: they don't want improve other aspects because, in example, improve XSI animation capability will disturb Maya marketing and the creative suite selling

bingo, that is exactly why they can't, and probably won't round the edges...

Why? My idea is dev. team don't listen the userbase, at all, but only marketing department (or big studio requests). For this reason I don't ask any support by developments team, but would like only know what is the XSI route.
Under this aspect I'm a bit nostalgic, company like Luxology have a more empathic attitude with their customers.

now, let's not get ahead of ourselves here. the xsi dev team are a stellar bunch, period.
it's the autodesk management/pr/marketing whatever, that's the problem here.
and xsi vs modo, is like apples and oranges. different market segments alltogether.
had xsi been ported to osx, maybe, but still, a long shot.

dwigfor
04-11-2011, 06:57 AM
I'm hoping Softimage:Behavior gets resurrected as ICE compounds.

ThE_JacO
04-11-2011, 07:31 AM
Why? My idea is dev. team don't listen the userbase, at all, but only marketing department (or big studio requests). For this reason I don't ask any support by developments team, but would like only know what is the XSI route.
Under this aspect I'm a bit nostalgic, company like Luxology have a more empathic attitude with their customers.

Your idea is simply wrong. The beta lists see a lot more activity from small and medium sized studios and freelances, and small 3rd party developers, than they ever do from "us" big studios, which tend to wait well after release for adoption.
The marketing department btw MARKETS the product, as the name might suggest, they don't steer the development, nor would have the technicals means to do.
The suggestion that any software company in DCC out there might listen to what might look cool on brochures to steer development is in the same camp of the tinfoil hats conspiracies.

They might listen to sales (especially missed ones) in those regards, and they should, as it's normally the reflection of the large majority of the user-base that is silent through the other channels.
Mind, some of them, like you apparently, are so for some mis-placed sense of defeatism apparently.
"Don't ask, don't get, what did you expect?"

As for the rest of the comments, lots of personal stuff, but when I read that XSI was seeing more development under Avid than it does now, then I have to dismiss this as the occasional QQ thread.

A gigantic pile of assumptions, mostly wrong ones, and some rather hapzarded conclusions. That is, of course, just my personal opinion.

Ciuccio
04-11-2011, 08:46 AM
this has been a long beaten horse since before the ice days...and the truth is
xsi will never break into the houdini market. but what it can break in, and has done so,
is the freelancers/small studio market. problem with that is, not much revenue there.

I'm sure about this point, but how SI quote can rise up if they no more aim to little studio and freelance and cannot break the Houdini domain?
In the case they want point to FX and houdini market, for me is the some, I don't need so not renew subscription.
Must wait the 2012.5 release for understood a bit more about the direction.

now, let's not get ahead of ourselves here. the xsi dev team are a stellar bunch, period.
it's the autodesk management/pr/marketing whatever, that's the problem here.

Your idea is simply wrong. The beta lists see a lot more activity from small and medium sized studios and freelances, and small 3rd party developers, than they ever do from "us" big studios, which tend to wait well after release for adoption.
Some users request are ignored (I read in different forums) from release XSI 5 (and Oktawu said from release 1) , this was, obviously, before AD acquisition, and the only think don't cage in this years are the dev. team; for these reason I said dev team don't listen the usersbase, or had (in any case) obey to different orders.

and xsi vs modo, is like apples and oranges. different market segments alltogether.
had xsi been ported to osx, maybe, but still, a long shot.
Never did a Modo/XSI war, don't need; what I point is the different attitude, about their userbase needs and request, between autodesk and luxology. Everywhere XSI user demand a more fast and efficient rendering, and the wrong area in 2012 is just rendering (it is impossible a beta tester don't see this issue, in a minute I found this problem, so they don't test at all what their userbase demand and needs).

Mind, some of them, like you apparently, are so for some mis-placed sense of defeatism apparently.
"Don't ask, don't get, what did you expect?"
I'm sorry if I look so, but like customer I think, I have all the rights to doing consideration and lamentation about the products I brought. My initial answer was not a dev team denigration, or blame AD marketing (as I said, there is no crime if they want sell me more software), but I want know software I like (and brought) where going. I think no one beneficial if we separate ourself in defeatism and "in any case I'm happy about". Blender community (the biggest and more supportive I think) has the odious attitude to blame and isolate anyone talk about the bad or not well implemented Blender area or tools. I think we are all in the some ship, and don't doing anything terrible if discussing about the future (near future in less six months we will see, probably, a 2012.5 release), for the sake of doing this and, most important, because we invest our money, time study and entrust our work to this software.

A gigantic pile of assumptions, mostly wrong ones, and some rather hapzarded conclusions. That is, of course, just my personal opinion.
Like the "gigantic pile of assumptions" was my opinion. In any case facts are here, under our eyes:
- if you need and like ICE, AD management doing much more better then avid one
- if you don't need ice and has generalist interests (from archiviz to character modelling and animation), AD update is really poor. Really simple.

In any case, does no one has an answer for me about my initial post? Did or not end the ICE run? And if ICE ends it run and marketing don't want listen the usersbase request, where do will point XSI route tomorrow?

RebelPixel
04-11-2011, 08:59 AM
I think that the biggest difference here, just to answer quickly and get over with this already, is the fact that i want to learn a tool to use in my work, i want to spend time to use tools and to work, i dont want to learn HOW to create those tools, because this is what ICE is.

ICE is not a tool itself, it is an environment for tools creation, wich means that all people who are interested in creating tools are in heaven, the ones who just need to push 1 button and have a deformer applied arent really in heaven.

Just my opinion, when i got free time i like to try ICE and try to study it, but the time you need to invest to achieve anything decent is too much and i'm not skilled enough in math/vectors and everything that ICE requires you to know.

That said, i think Softimage developers are pure genius and never wanted to say otherwise, i love to see Softimage so strong lately, i just would like to have some attention into other things, because as many people said here they are not touched since years now, and not everyone again is that tech and skilled into coding tools and using ICE.

ThE_JacO
04-11-2011, 09:20 AM
Some users request are ignored (I read in different forums) from release XSI 5 (and Oktawu said from release 1) , this was, obviously, before AD acquisition, and the only think don't cage in this years are the dev. team; for these reason I said dev team don't listen the usersbase, or had (in any case) obey to different orders.
It's not some users' requests, it's some requests that get ignored.
There's only so many hours in a year, and the vocal minority of whingers is very far removed from what the bigger but more reserved channels really transmit.
Some requests are just impossible to implement, some simply didn't get implemented because they are lower in priority, and some others have got implemented.
The summary of that isn't they "obey different orders", or that they don't listen to the userbase. The summary of that is that you can please a few people most of the time, or most people some of the time. You can never please all people at all times, because they have wildly conflicting priorities and demands, not to mention a solid two thirds of them can barely articulate their thoughts, let alone have some resemblance of consistency in what they ask and how.

Is that perfect? Hell no. Is it a damn sight better than a lot of other client feedback loops? Yes, after years in many camps, I think it is. It can be better, but it's definitely not such horrid and disfunctional beast.

I have things I've been asking for since 2001 and that haven't been implemented. They are big, gamechanging things, and they might take time, or even never get implemented because they might make the app something other people won't want to use.
I also, however, have seen a lot of things I've asked for (and many others have) done, and done well.

Never did a Modo/XSI war, don't need; what I point is the different attitude, about their userbase needs and request, between autodesk and luxology. Everywhere XSI user demand a more fast and efficient rendering, and the wrong area in 2012 is just rendering (it is impossible a beta tester don't see this issue, in a minute I found this problem, so they don't test at all what their userbase demand and needs).
AD can't do much with MRay, which is where the problems come from. They can, however, create better rendering APIs, and guess what? They did, which is why you now have options such as 3DElight and Arnold. Because the userbase wanted alternatives to MRay for rendering, but the API wasn't where it needed to be, so it got changed and extended to where it is now, which is in a damn good place.

In any case, does no one has an answer for me about my initial post? Did or not end the ICE run? And if ICE ends it run and marketing don't want listen the usersbase request, where do will point XSI route tomorrow?
They can't tell you that, for some pretty restrictive corporate laws which impeed announcing anything that isn't being released in full within the same quarter. If you have an issue with that, bring it up with the senate of the U.S.A. and all the ancilliary organs regulating such things.
Also, assuming that now that ICE supports modelling it's "complete" is asinine on the best of day.

Soft is the only software out there who had the balls to work on the backend and the structure of the product, and if you can't see how that already changed the game for 3rd party developers and users alike, not to mention opened the door for quicker internal development, then I guess you'll never see the bigger picture, and you'll keep posting once every two or three years to complain about something, to then leave again.
I can live with that.

pooby
04-11-2011, 09:41 AM
ICE is not a tool itself, it is an environment for tools creation, wich means that all people who are interested in creating tools are in heaven, the ones who just need to push 1 button and have a deformer applied arent really in heaven.

Just my opinion, when i got free time i like to try ICE and try to study it, but the time you need to invest to achieve anything decent is too much and i'm not skilled enough in math/vectors and everything that ICE requires you to know.

A few months ago I had no real idea what a vector was. Or an array. I still struggle with mathematics beyond simple arithmetic (adding, subtraction and multiplication) I do not know how to write scripts. Yet I can make ICE do things that I find quite amazing.
A couple of days is all it takes to learn enough to get to a level where ICE can be fun and useful. You do realise that you dont have to make a deformer every time you want to USE a deformer? You CAN make a 1 button push, deformer, and even share it with the people who
have negatively pre-judged their own ability to use ICE before properly trying it.
( like me, this time last year, for example)

Hirazi
04-11-2011, 10:01 AM
@ShaderOp - You're right: documentation is often a severe problem with any kind of third-party tool. But this goes for free plugins and commercial ones alike, as I, for instance, wasn't really impressed with the Momentum 2 documentation, to name just one example...
(And personally I find the Softimage documentation hasn't gotten better over the years either...)
;)

Ciuccio
04-11-2011, 10:02 AM
I think that the biggest difference here, just to answer quickly and get over with this already, is the fact that i want to learn a tool to use in my work, i want to spend time to use tools and to work, i dont want to learn HOW to create those tools, because this is what ICE is.

understood your point and understood why you said "XSI is not for freelance", but you are wrong here, take a look at ICE, you will lost a week or less in learning, it is more and more simple then scripting. Under this point of view ICE is really revolutionary and useful (IMO, more simple then Houdini).

ICE is not a tool itself, it is an environment for tools creation, wich means that all people who are interested in creating tools are in heaven, the ones who just need to push 1 button and have a deformer applied arent really in heaven.
I think you need Cinema 4d :)
Cinema nature is this: simplicity and one button solution everywhere ( I don't know Cinema, but have a friend who use it, and they said me everything is really simple).

AD can't do much with MRay, which is where the problems come from.
Ok, but MR is the for Maya and 3dsm, in this package seems more fast, more feature and better implemented. Why? We have a fully integrated MR, in my ignorance for me it mean a better MR performance.

They did, which is why you now have options such as 3DElight and Arnold. Because the userbase wanted alternatives to MRay for rendering, but the API wasn't where it needed to be, so it got changed and extended to where it is now, which is in a damn good place.

Again, in my ignorance, I hope the package, doing my work, don't look api or things like, this. This is a good point, must admit, never considering (also, I considered the SDK and api improvement a advantage for the big studio and not for a freelance)

They can't tell you that, for some pretty restrictive corporate laws which impeed announcing anything that isn't being released in full within the same quarter. If you have an issue with that, bring it up with the senate of the U.S.A. and all the ancilliary organs regulating such things.
I know this point, and just know AD cannot talk about the future, my was a question for the community.

Soft is the only software out there who had the balls to work on the backend and the structure of the product, and if you can't see how that already changed the game for 3rd party developers and users alike, not to mention opened the door for quicker internal development, then I guess you'll never see the bigger picture, and you'll keep posting once every two or three years to complain about something, to then leave again.
I can live with that.

I like softimage but if the cage under the hood will not traduce in a near advantage for my work I cannot be happy. I'm, and I think other, are too little and too involved in everyday work issue for thinking about api and sdk, not for stupidity (give me, at least, don't consider myself a fool), but, as Rebel Pixel said, we have no so many time.

I have the feeling that your tone is a bit 'annoyed and not very accommodating, if my arguments are boring or unimportant I just can stop posting (just ask). Have just wrote as I think about:
I'm sorry if I look so, but like customer I think, I have all the rights to doing consideration and lamentation about the products I brought. My initial answer was not a dev team denigration, or blame AD marketing (as I said, there is no crime if they want sell me more software), but I want know software I like (and brought) where going. I think no one beneficial if we separate ourself in defeatism and "in any case I'm happy about". Blender community (the biggest and more supportive I think) has the odious attitude to blame and isolate anyone talk about the bad or not well implemented Blender area or tools. I think we are all in the some ship, and don't doing anything terrible if discussing about the future (near future in less six months we will see, probably, a 2012.5 release), for the sake of doing this and, most important, because we invest our money, time study and entrust our work to this software.

RebelPixel
04-11-2011, 10:04 AM
Hey Paul. i've watched all your tutorials on vimeo lots of times, and i find them inspiring and really helpfull, and while i'm at this i owe you a big thank you for your effort!

I agree on what you say about ICE, but well there are too many roadblocks when you work with it if you dont fully understand many basic and math stuff, i had a look on how the procedural new modeling works and i couldnt understand many things, not that they are not explained in the help, but for example it would never come to my mind that to create a geometry i should add an array of points in counter clockwise order, or why i should use the array index.

I mean the problem is not ICE itself, is the deep knowledge that is behind it, of course i can watch a videotutorial (when there is one....) and repro that particular tool, but do that alone from scratch is kinda difficult and hard.

I guess this links to the issue we were discussing before regarding a total absence of help/good docs/good tutorials about the subject (yours are excluded!!! :p)

I like ICE, and to me things are fine like they are, if only we could get a refresh on some other tools i would be happy, but i must admit that many friends and people i know who tried to switch to Softimage, dropped it by desperation because of lack of understandig what ICE does. You might find it easy because you are good at it, but for a total fresh noob, its kinda hard.

Again thanks for your tutorials :)

pooby
04-11-2011, 11:08 AM
you're welcome.
I agree that, if you were a complete newbie, you probably wouldn't want to start your Softimage experience with learning ICE, but then, the general workflow and tools of Softimage are very user freindly and easy to pick up and learn, imo.

A big source of confusion is that Nodally programming something in ICE is different to using the tools it creates.
If somebody really doesnt want to learn to customise or make their own tools, thats understandable, (even though I think they are missing out big time) but if they dont want appreciate or want to use the ICE tools others have built then thats just folly.

At some point, ICE will probably allow the customisation of the way user interacts with Softimage, so we might well see user-created hair brushing /styling tools, or new enveloping tools and maybe something like the FX tree will be integrated into ICE, allowing 3d painting tools to be created. I would, in fact be very suprised if this is not the case.
Those who suggest that ICE is nearly complete, are lacking in Vision. In my opinion, it has hardly started scratching the surface of whats possible.
I mean, If I can make a GI renderer in it, now without knowing how renderers work, or how to code, http://vimeo.com/20652466 then I think the future potential of ICE is very exciting indeed.

Hirazi
04-11-2011, 11:25 AM
@Ciuccio - don't stop posting... (I'll say no more) ;)

edit: sorry misspelled your name... :banghead:

ViCoX
04-11-2011, 12:10 PM
Best introduction to ice is programming. ITS NOT THAT HARD. : )
Theres challenges in every corner of 3D and ice is no exception..

MIT introduction to programming (http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-00-introduction-to-computer-science-and-programming-fall-2008/video-lectures/)
Check out MITs opencourseware. Learn, do little python and come back to ICE.
Then it all makes sense ; )

oktawu
04-11-2011, 12:58 PM
hey raf, since ur lurking around here, could u explain briefly how u guys get around the lack of an ascii scene description? did u write your own parsers? xml hooking?
just curious

InfinitySpiral
04-11-2011, 01:04 PM
AD can't do much with MRay, which is where the problems come from. They can, however, create better rendering APIs, and guess what? They did, which is why you now have options such as 3DElight and Arnold. Because the userbase wanted alternatives to MRay for rendering, but the API wasn't where it needed to be, so it got changed and extended to where it is now, which is in a damn good place.

I can't fully agree that AD can't do much .They are responsible for the integration of MR in there products, since they use it as a selling point.(As I know only Maya integration started at Mental Images) .They are not responsible about MR as a render that is true but the fact is that MR in SI is slower than Maya and Max and MR version is the same in the 3 applications.And this fact is enough to disagree with this statement. I hope this problem we have in 2012 is only a bug that will be fixed soon.
Check this if you didn't see it yet: http://www.si-community.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=1380
It is true that SI team did a lot to improve rendering API and this is good but the MR integration got worse than Maya and Max.It use to be opposite.

ShaderOp
04-11-2011, 01:48 PM
hey raf, since ur lurking around here, could u explain briefly how u guys get around the lack of an ascii scene description? did u write your own parsers? xml hooking?
just curious
That's a good question actually. And while we're at it, could someone explain to me how crucial that feature is? My understanding is that it's godsend in Maya when things go tits up and a scene file is corrupted, but I can't think of many useful applications for it beyond that.

oktawu
04-11-2011, 04:07 PM
That's a good question actually. And while we're at it, could someone explain to me how crucial that feature is? My understanding is that it's godsend in Maya when things go tits up and a scene file is corrupted, but I can't think of many useful applications for it beyond that.

i'll get u up to speed on this in not time :)
from my own personal experience, this feature alone in maya/nuke has saved my ass a trillion times. i'll give u a couple of examples. say u have a corrupt scene, and u can't do anything about it. yes i know u can and do incrementally save, but let's say it's important and u need it working. just go in notepad++, go inside the scene, and start debugging it, look for the parts that are working, and the ones that are not, extract ur data, and paste it into another working scene. voila, u saved the day.
reference changes, namespaces, texture path changes, point cache data - say u have, as we had, scenes that have half a terabyte of referenced data, fluid caches, point caches, map textures in the hundreds of gigs. it took roughly 10-20 mins to load the scene from the gui. someone in the studio makes a change to something in the project, and now it needs updating in the scene, god knows what, it does not matter. maybe i want to change the intensity of a light, regardless, i don;t want to have to spend 20 min loading the scene and another 5 min saving it, everytime i want to change something. just load ur fav text editor, look for the lines with the definitions and parameters u want to change, type in ur values, save, voila. 1 min.
this alone saves u everytime u need to make any kind of change to a scene that takes a long time to load in the gui. you start feeling it on ur own skin when u start having terrabytes of data feeding those scenes.
these are just two simple examples, but u get the point.
in nuke i've had corrupted scenes due to that node instance bug. i honestly felt like destroyin the office, i had 1 hour left to deliver the shot, had everything setup ready to hit the farm, and on the last save, it just screwed the node indices. u can imagine, going back to last hours save, was not an option. so i just got the scene in notepad++, looked for the lines that were corrupt, replaced them with the correct string, and voila. my ass saved.

houdini takes this even further, in that it allows to both access the scene in a text editor, but also from a command shell, in which u navigate ur scene linux style, u query data, and change values with shell commands. no need for a gui. it might not look like it's something useful at first sight, but trust me, once u get into having terrabytes of assets and data, u'll see things differently.
now i know some people might argue saying, well, u haven't built a feasible enough pipeline, u haven't this u haven't that, but see, this is exactly the kind of thing that's bothering me. why do i need to know a ton of pipeline optimisation, thus programming, to tackle bigger and more complex projects on my own for example. i just want things to be accessible ootb.

i think this is even more useful if u'r not a hardcore programmer, and u don't want to start coding ur own scene parsers. i know i couldn't..and really wouldn't want to anyway.

ShaderOp
04-11-2011, 05:09 PM
i'll get u up to speed on this in not time :)
I'm so up to speed now that I think I traveled a few seconds forward in time. Thank you for that very thorough answer. It was really informative :)

Chris-TC
04-11-2011, 05:52 PM
but I don't use ICE (and like me I think many other)
With every new release of Softimage, saying "I don't use ICE" becomes a bit more like a Photoshop user saying "I don't use layers."

ICE has become a core component of the program. You can now model, rig, transform, deform and do particle animation with it. If you keep ignoring ICE, you will keep being disappointed by the new versions.

Learning ICE is not rocket science. There are plenty of tutorials and no excuses for ignoring it anymore. I mean, even Syflex is now ICE based. It just makes sense, it's the logical progression for Softimage.

oglu
04-11-2011, 07:22 PM
im sure max and maya will get also some node based stuff... not like ice but fitting there needs...
nodes are only a way to visualize the complex stuff behind... the core is the magic... without node based graphs we are lost... :D


and houdini is not like ice... its totally different... the can easily co exist...

adrencg
04-11-2011, 10:42 PM
I won't say that I understand ICE that well, but I can honestly say that it has to be at least 100 times easier than actually writing code. It's probably no exaggeration to say that....

ThE_JacO
04-12-2011, 12:16 AM
hey raf, since ur lurking around here, could u explain briefly how u guys get around the lack of an ascii scene description? did u write your own parsers? xml hooking?
just curious
The long story short about it is we don't use scenes. Artists use them for their personal work areas throughout the days, but in general we use shotsetup tools for each department that allow people to assemble a shot from granular data with just what they need and want in it, and they check-in granules and not scenes. Things they want for review or that are approved to proceed down the pipe are then checked in with a "publish" flag.
The "table of contents" of our shots is a centralised database where producers and coords can create and configure the shots and breakdowns that the artists will build.

This also enables us to load (some of) the same assets in both Maya and XSI for different departments.

We wouldn't mind an ascii scene format and have been pushing for one for a while, but it's a mammoth task, and it's probably not quite as relevant to us as it might be to somebody using scenes as a relevant data format.

oktawu
04-12-2011, 01:23 PM
thanks for the info raf. that clears things quite a bit.

twosheds
04-12-2011, 02:28 PM
I'm with pooby as far as the ICE stuff goes. I mean, in that I don't do scripting or programming and don't know much about it aside from the very basic...uhh, basics.
But while ICE was (to me) extremely intimidating at first, it gets better and after a few months at it became fairly intuitive. I can't claim to be any kind of ICE guru and for what I do mostly (modeling and texturing, rigging and rendering) I don't really even need it much, but the point is I have been able to achieve everything I set out to do with it in those cases where I did need ICE effects.
And thank you pooby for posting the tutorial links. I'm definitely going to go through those! :D

And to the guy who said there was very little out there for ICE, that's not really true. Both Digital Tutors and i3D have some excellent beginner level and advanced ICE tutorials and between the two of them you don't really need much more to understand ICE and get going with it.

That said, I too was hoping there would be some more integration with ZBrush and/or Mudbox. I have to say I really don't understand what the problem is there and why by now XSI isn't up to date with either or both of those packages.

I do like Softimage's direction though and as has already been pointed out, this is where it's going; this is the future of XSI. So you either go with it and learn it, or abandon it in favor of something else, or continue to use the current or past versions. Pretty simple, really.

oglu
04-12-2011, 02:57 PM
That said, I too was hoping there would be some more integration with ZBrush and/or Mudbox. I have to say I really don't understand what the problem is there and why by now XSI isn't up to date with either or both of those packages.


waht does you mean with that..?
there is a send to mud feature in soft...

twosheds
04-12-2011, 03:11 PM
waht does you mean with that..?
there is a send to mud feature in soft...

Really? Well I guess I stand corrected then. :surprised
I haven't upgraded yet, and was just going by what I thought I'd read. (or apparently didn't read)
Shall I assume then that Mudbox 2012 has a "Send to Softimage" button too?

oglu
04-12-2011, 04:32 PM
right there is a send to soft button in mud...!

twosheds
04-12-2011, 06:57 PM
right there is a send to soft button in mud...!

Thanks for the information, Christoph, that's outstanding news. :)

kalone
04-13-2011, 07:46 PM
A few months ago I had no real idea what a vector was. Or an array. I still struggle with mathematics beyond simple arithmetic (adding, subtraction and multiplication) I do not know how to write scripts. Yet I can make ICE do things that I find quite amazing.
A couple of days is all it takes to learn enough to get to a level where ICE can be fun and useful. You do realise that you dont have to make a deformer every time you want to USE a deformer? You CAN make a 1 button push, deformer, and even share it with the people who
have negatively pre-judged their own ability to use ICE before properly trying it.
( like me, this time last year, for example)

I tend to oppose, and sorry Paul, with all due respect, I know it wasn`t your intention (I appreciate all the free tutorials you made, really, please don`t be mad at me) but what you said sounds a bit arrogant, just like back in school when some guys who understood physics and the others did not: "oh, that`s so easy, just read the book".
I, for example, am trying to understand, REALLY understand ICE for a year now and besides a bit of "how to setup more or less basic particle stuff" there`s not much I can do with it. ICE is a big and ultimate dissapointment for me, and there are several causes for this.

1. the compound mess - I don`t know how many compounds exist, and that`s one of my main issues. There are so many nodes with meaningless names - how the hell am I supposed to know what they are built for? how can you even memorize them?

2. connecting the compounds - the node`s in- and outputs may be more or less self explanatory, but that doesn`t help in all those situations where you have mismatching channels, which quite happens all the time.

3. even autodesk admits that ICE kinematics for rigging purposes is so complex that only TDs should touch them due to the complex mathematics involved. sorry, but that is an epic failure from AD - it sounds like all of us have their own TDs sitting in their drawers.

Please Paul, I hope I didn`t insult you, but if things were really that easy as you say there would be way more practical examples other than those endless amounts of experiments on vimeo and the one or two projects I could see so far (i.e.: http://vimeo.com/6750372).

kalone
04-13-2011, 08:22 PM
With every new release of Softimage, saying "I don't use ICE" becomes a bit more like a Photoshop user saying "I don't use layers."

ICE has become a core component of the program. You can now model, rig, transform, deform and do particle animation with it. If you keep ignoring ICE, you will keep being disappointed by the new versions.


You`re switching cause and effect - for a lot of people it`s not "I don't use ICE" but "I CAN`T use ICE because of lacking training and ease of use" - and regarding your second point, the software`s still named "Softimage" not "ICEimage", the users of Softimage want to be at least on par or better than the other 3D artists and not just users of the ICE-add-on to Maya and Max.

ViCoX
04-14-2011, 03:06 PM
I have to repeat myself. : )
The most easy way to get into ICE is knowing basics about programming. Really BASICS.
Be humble and start from the beginning.
You are trying to jump into ICE with artistic mindset, that dosen`t work.
Youre looking for compounds that "does" something for you, instead you should be trying to understand "how" it does it for you.
You cannot do much if you don`t understand the underlaying concepts like iteration, variables, sampling ect..

Hirazi
04-14-2011, 07:14 PM
@ViCoX - Although I think, you're more or less right, your post illustrates quite well "what went wrong with ICE" between its humble beginnings in XSI 7 and the here and now. The marketing slogan was "code less, create more" and what was implied was, that you could use compounds without having to know how they work, so an "artistic mindset" should have sufficed. But as you correctly point out, this has turned out to be nothing more than a marketing slogan... :surprised
The whole idea of ICE as an easy substitute to coding never appealed to me (as I liked coding and had a real hard time changing into the mindset you need for ICE), but that was how "they" originally presented it.

adrencg
04-14-2011, 08:02 PM
I tend to oppose, and sorry Paul, with all due respect, I know it wasn`t your intention (I appreciate all the free tutorials you made, really, please don`t be mad at me) but what you said sounds a bit arrogant, just like back in school when some guys who understood physics and the others did not: "oh, that`s so easy, just read the book".
I, for example, am trying to understand, REALLY understand ICE for a year now and besides a bit of "how to setup more or less basic particle stuff" there`s not much I can do with it. ICE is a big and ultimate dissapointment for me, and there are several causes for this.

1. the compound mess - I don`t know how many compounds exist, and that`s one of my main issues. There are so many nodes with meaningless names - how the hell am I supposed to know what they are built for? how can you even memorize them?

2. connecting the compounds - the node`s in- and outputs may be more or less self explanatory, but that doesn`t help in all those situations where you have mismatching channels, which quite happens all the time.

3. even autodesk admits that ICE kinematics for rigging purposes is so complex that only TDs should touch them due to the complex mathematics involved. sorry, but that is an epic failure from AD - it sounds like all of us have their own TDs sitting in their drawers.

Please Paul, I hope I didn`t insult you, but if things were really that easy as you say there would be way more practical examples other than those endless amounts of experiments on vimeo and the one or two projects I could see so far (i.e.: http://vimeo.com/6750372).

In respect to what you're saying here, I think there's a disconnect from programmer types concerning what's possible when artist brain types try to do any kind of coding. Like I mentioned before, using ICE is way easier than writing code, but if your brain isn't wired for that type of thinking then you can only go so far with it.

I think Paul is under-selling his left-brain abilities.

I'm not saying art and logic are mutually exclusive, but they're generally two different skills that not everyone can have in abundance at the same time.

ViCoX
04-14-2011, 08:09 PM
Marketing might have been misplaced.
However, in the end ICE is kindof visual programming language.. Its not magic bullet that makes everything easy, but it is definelty easier than programming.
So easy to use is bit misleading in that sense.

However "artistic mindset" works with many tools, like Lagoa, emfluid, syflex ect.
These are very "highlevel" tools/compounds and results are what you would expect.

kalone
04-14-2011, 09:35 PM
Like I mentioned before, using ICE is way easier than writing code, but if your brain isn't wired for that type of thinking then you can only go so far with it.

yes, easier than coding, but if you need a brain specificially wired for ICE then it`s a big waste of programming ressources by AD (better put into other areas...) - as I said before, only very, very few people seem to embrace ICE to a remarkable extent and softimage already has a quite thin user base...


I think Paul is under-selling his left-brain abilities.


definately

kalone
04-14-2011, 09:45 PM
I have to repeat myself. : )
The most easy way to get into ICE is knowing basics about programming. Really BASICS.
Be humble and start from the beginning.
ok, you mean if/else/while/arrays/conditions with basics, right? or not so...


You are trying to jump into ICE with artistic mindset, that dosen`t work.

the technical mindset was required to operate the tools when I started with CGI in the 90ies and most of the work was awful because there were far too many technical people.
Only very few people can do both, art and tech equally well.


You cannot do much if you don`t understand the underlaying concepts like iteration, variables, sampling ect..
other than variables this is not what I would call "basics"...

ThE_JacO
04-15-2011, 01:34 AM
@ViCoX - Although I think, you're more or less right, your post illustrates quite well "what went wrong with ICE" between its humble beginnings in XSI 7 and the here and now. The marketing slogan was "code less, create more" and what was implied was, that you could use compounds without having to know how they work, so an "artistic mindset" should have sufficed. But as you correctly point out, this has turned out to be nothing more than a marketing slogan... :surprised
The whole idea of ICE as an easy substitute to coding never appealed to me (as I liked coding and had a real hard time changing into the mindset you need for ICE), but that was how "they" originally presented it.

Code less create more didn't mean you could junk stuff together without knowing what it is or how it works.
It means what it says, write less code and work more experimentally/iteratively and faster.

In those regards: Mission F'in Accomplished.

ICE was never an "easy substitute to coding", nor was it presented so.

You're a good guy in my book Hirazi, but sometimes you have a way of coalescing your perceptions of things into facts and history or something.
The above is pretty far from how it went.

As for Kalone: Going by the list of your problems, I'm not surprised you're finding ICE difficult.
If you're trying to "memorise" everything and need to know what every compound does, instead of trying to figure out the basic and having an empyrical approach, you will always bleed your nose against the wall in matters of experimention, design and so on.

Pooby's humble throw-yourself-into-the-deep-end seems to have served him, somebody who is fundamentally an artist, much better to me.

Hirazi
04-15-2011, 08:52 AM
@ThE_JacO - Luckily, you're always right... :rolleyes:

ViCoX
04-15-2011, 11:06 AM
...also ICE is very visual. You can see vectors firing and matrices rotating.
It makes it exciting also to visual people. : )

I`m more artistic than technical and I have no educational background in cg. It just takes the effort.

ThE_JacO
04-15-2011, 12:39 PM
@ThE_JacO - Luckily, you're always right... :rolleyes:
Oh yeah, sarcasm, that's sure to further the conversation... /irony

I have no pretense of being always right, nor I have suggested I am, but when you state:
The marketing slogan was "code less, create more" and what was implied was, that you could use compounds without having to know how they work, so an "artistic mindset" should have sufficed.
You are inferring that your perception of ONE slogan is the truth of that marketing campaign.
Nowhere was implied it wouldn't be a technical element of the software: Take the cue from the fact that that is the slogan of Qt as well.

Having used ICE since the very first alpha and up to today, and having been close to Soft for a good stretch of the way, I have some pretty damn accurate memories of their marketing, of the discussions on forums and mailing lists, and the comments offered by their staff.
At no point in that timeline ANYBODY from Soft or AD afterwards ever suggested or implied you wouldn't need to know anything or "an artist mindset" would suffice (barring the fact Pooby is very much of the artistic persuasion and seems to be doing pretty well btw).

In case this is escaping anybody's attention, I have a track record here of having let pretty much any and every type of discussion take place. I hardly ever close or move threads (we're talking once a year) even when they are at the very edge of the forum rules.

I still have a responsibility about the signal2noise ratio on these forums, and the bit that DOES seem to be escaping people's attention, is that this isn't an AD official channel, or a "place of lamentation". This forum is meant for constructive discussion about use and abuse of a specific software, sharing techniques, ideas, bugs and their workaround and solutions.

When a thread goes on for 3 pages and all the contributions that seem to come in from a few members are nothing other than non-constructive whinging and defeatism, sarcastics one-liners, appeals to the right of bitching on the internet, I do take issue with the contents, and I will chime in to correct inaccuracies when I know for a fact what they are.

Have a nice day,
Raff

kalone
04-15-2011, 12:55 PM
...also ICE is very visual. You can see vectors firing and matrices rotating.
It makes it exciting also to visual people. : )

I`m more artistic than technical and I have no educational background in cg. It just takes the effort.

any samples of your work?? I`m getting curious...

ViCoX
04-15-2011, 01:17 PM
any samples of your work?? I`m getting curious...
Well, the newest SI and ICE project was this (http://vimeo.com/21112591). I made rain and vegetation system, rendered and compped it.
I have been thinking of making some simple tutorials to ICE.
It is also communitys fault that it is hard to get into ICE, we need more stuff like Pooby. : )

kalone
04-15-2011, 01:21 PM
When a thread goes on for 3 pages and all the contributions that seem to come in from a few members are nothing other than non-constructive whinging and defeatism, sarcastics one-liners, appeals to the right of bitching on the internet, I do take issue with the contents, and I will chime in to correct inaccuracies when I know for a fact what they are.

Have a nice day,
Raff

note taken. no posts anymore - I`m leaving for good. bye bye cgsociety...

p.s.: can anyone tell me how to delete my account?

ThE_JacO
04-15-2011, 02:59 PM
At no point I addressed you or your posts with my comment, but if you really feel the need, there's a forum for site support.
Internet drama is serious business. Anybody else wants to get something off their chest before we, hopefully, resume more productive discussions?

RebelPixel
04-15-2011, 03:02 PM
I think there has been some misunderstanding here.
No one is saying ICE is bad, personally i'm just saying that Softimage went from a 360 degrees software to a tech and specialized software, and this is kinda bad for the people who used the software at 360°, because now they dont get updates at 360°, but just in ICE.

Now you are pushing Softimage with ICE only not "caring" (please take this concept in a light way, its not my intention to insult AD or Soft staff at all) about the userbase who were used to work with Soft in all fields it provided, and the same people are the ones who have an hard time to learn ICE for many reasons.

Because ICE is not easy, because the tutorials around are not enough to justify the vast amount of time you need to invest to make stuff with ICE, things that arent really an instanced geometry or some random particles. That could be done before ICE and that is not really hard to make with ICE, i'm speaking about a real use of ICE.

To use really use ICE, please dont tell me that the tutorials that are around are enough because this is totally not true. Oh yes i'm speaking about a more "artist" mindset, not a TD mindset.

You can also find on xsimailing list, Autodesk staff that is aware about how people just dont understand ICE and the will to make more tutorials or help more, so again i dont think whats been discussed in those 3 pages is totally stupid/wrong/whining.

I think that ICE is good, but the complete lack of updates on the whole other part of the software is just bad in my opinion.
You could add a tiny bit of things here and there to please people who really cant get a grip with ICE, instead of fully update only ICE for 3 years.
This same discussion was made when ICE came out, when ICE kinematics came out, always the same answer, "i cant wait how many great compounds you guys are gonna share with community, i cant wait to see what you came up with IK/FK ICE animation!!!"
Well that didnt go well in my opinion, and here we go again.

Lets see how many months will take to have a decent sweep modifier made with ICE.

And to further get you an idea on how soft is going, i hope you guys know that Soft has a huge mental ray problem in 2012, as soon as your scene populates with geometry the render hangs worse and worse. Not referring about ICE scattering, or instances, i'm talking about geometry. Create a sphere, duplicate it 200 times and try to render.

Now when people reported this problem (like 1 hour after the release), with a bit of irony someone answered "no one uses Mental Ray anymore in beta testing".
So for a user that use in his work mental ray this is pretty depressing dont you think?
Fact that people in beta test use just arnold and 3delight is not an excuse to go out with such a huge bug that prevents the using of the main render.
Ok every software has bugs, but come on, this is something that it cant be overlooked, it means no one actually used mental ray with a normal scene once during beta, wich is absurd.

Hirazi
04-15-2011, 03:27 PM
ThE_JacO - I had hoped my littlle sarcasm would have been enough, but apparently not:
Your style of moderation, where you interpret, not bother to read the posts you comment on and point out other people's faults by naming them explicitly (and saying things like "you do this always") while you hardly ever once seem to look at the validity of your own claims, might be "very professional", but as you seem so hell-bent on insulting people only,
PLEASE DELETE MY ACCOUNT...

Ciuccio
04-15-2011, 03:54 PM
PLEASE DELETE MY ACCOUNT...
hey Hirazi, CGtalk softimage forum is just a desolate place, if you and other delete account I must start reading the 3dsm forum (arrrgh!)

RebelPixel@ I agree with you.

My posts didn't want be defeatism, but I exposed my personal idea about XSI development, the point I like and the point don't like.
Now this a real defeatism sentence:
why so happy about ICE modelling? for 100 bucks you can buy Houdini, more and more robust and complete procedural approach. In Odforce forum (a Houdini community) they laugh for all our (your) ICE enthusiasm.
If I, and other wanted a procedural software, we bought years ago Houdini, and not XSI.

I think only studio employer, where boss spend money (and not you) for software, and few other can be happy about the new XSI route.

twosheds
04-15-2011, 04:01 PM
Anybody else wants to get something off their chest before we, hopefully, resume more productive discussions?

Yeah, sometimes I sneak out very late night and drive to the 7-11 and buy snacks and eat them in the car before going home. My wife would kill me if she found out because I'm supposed to stay on a low sodium diet that she monitors strictly, but dammit, I just can't help myself!
Am I a bad person for that?

Whew, it feels good to finally confess my sins. :D

Back on topic, I suddenly feel very lucky to not have any huge need for the more advanced features of ICE and that what I need to do I can do easily enough.
As a result, I probably won't have much need to upgrade to Soft 2012, but I guess I'll just be waiting to see if anyone comes out with some good reasons why these new ICE updates might be useful for me.

In short, I agree with a lot of what RebelPixel said in the post above this one, and I hope that future Softimage releases can cater more to those of us who are still doing more traditional work with it.

mattmos
04-15-2011, 04:06 PM
why so happy about ICE modelling? for 100 bucks you can buy Houdini, more and more robust and complete procedural approach. In Odforce forum (a Houdini community) they laugh for all our (your) ICE enthusiasm.
If I, and other wanted a procedural software, we bought years ago Houdini, and not XSI.

I think only studio employer, where boss spend money (and not you) for software, and few other can be happy about the new XSI route.

I'm pretty happy about it as a freelancer/small company. Anything that extends the possibilities of the software while retaining the tools that I've spent time learning is good for me. Using Houdini commercially with a network licence would cost $9,995!

Rez007
04-15-2011, 05:36 PM
I like to tend to stay out of these types of conversations, but sometimes things need to be said...Jaco, you are the mod that I like the best on here and the list, always very insightful with a lot of knowledge and you do let threads run for a while which is nice, but I think you have a somewhat preconceived notion/idea about peoples’ opinions and what they state - attacking Hirazi like that made me think that someone hijacked your account. Hirazi is one of the coolest guys I know from the forums and is always on top of information and press releases with anything Softimage related before anyone else. Personally, I mentioned this elsewhere, but as far as PR goes for online Softimage related material, I felt that Autodesk should hire Hirazi, because right now the AD PR is pretty poor. This leads into my ICE issue.

You did mention that you were on the alpha team of ICE and have been closely "tied-in" with AD and the Softimage team throughout - being on the List, backend communications with the Softimage team, and whatever else through the development of ICE. I guess you have to try to pull yourself away from those dealings and see how Autodesk presented this material to the normal new buyer - not from a standpoint of being on the Betas, and that is where I agree with Hirazi.

Just because not everyone is lining up to bow down to the greatness of ICE, doesn't mean people should disregard others opinions, especially when we ARE investing our money in a product that we as users would like to see somewhat of a certain outcome. I personally like ICE, I think it is a really cool idea and takes tons of hard work to make - pretty revolutionary in my book. However, it was indeed marketed (from an outsiders view) as being a very simple tool for artist - which has not come into fruition. People buy products based what they are shown, not what they cannot see in a closed Beta. When the first videos were shown of how cool ICE was, I was hooked and it looked very simple. Couple of releases later it has indeed went a different direction.

When we were given the opportunity to first see ICE Kinematics, I thought that was awesome, and I could only image that our version of an "ICE CAT" was on its way, especially when they started demo-ing Phil's Rabbit. Well, here is ICE Kinematics and I saw the videos of the "egg with two legs." That seems simple, yeah but not really when you start to get into the beef of it. There should have been a disclaimer in the videos saying that if you want to make something like Phil’s rabbit, prepare for a ride, and you still have to be able to script your own code for some things on that Rabbit, if I remember correctly. And when I first saw that Rabbit interacting with the ground on the fly, that was really sweet. Again, presented in a fashion “easy for anyone”…until you actually have to rebuild that rig. With the lack of documentation, good luck. I would much rather have them finished ICE Kinematics by making a somewhat CAT implementation and integrating it with FaceRobot. Having an ICE driven FaceRobot with a skeletal rig and muscle rig, with nice deformations for blending and wrinkles, all driven by ICE, would be sweet. Instead they are off on ICE Geometry. I much rather would have waited for 2012.5 or 2013 for Ice Geometry, and when that release would have came out, it would have been a lot more "beefed" up. Right now it seems like the approach of "hey, here are the basic nodes, no go make it yourself." But guess what that mentality leads into - plugin haven (Or ICE Compound Haven) ala Max. Which I thought Softimage was not going to turn out to be. I would rather have things finished and bugs taken care of before what feels like to be somewhat unfinished releases. How long have people been asking for an option for a Unit of Measure or a thickness tool in Softimage…forever maybe, because it still does not ship natively with Softimage. But then again someone from Autodesk released a thickness modifier on the List, and then another person put a link to their favorite thickness compound that might have an extra added feature... Okay, that is 2 now that we have. Would it have been so hard to have shipped at least one with Softimage after years and years of asking? Well, we have not 1 but 2, or 3, 4, 5, 6 ...how any different versions are going to start being posted by people just because they want to show they made one - it is going to become a mess. Now, what if you are a new user who has not heard of the List, and then I guess they are SOL until it is posted somewhere they can find it. Because, lets face it - the "end all be all" AREA, is definitely not a place where I can find what I need like it was supposed too.

For 2012, which I have only read things about as I just got my box in the mail yesterday and am going to take it for a test drive here shortly, I like the release as a whole but consistently overlooking the obvious updates and bugs are getting frustrating. I used to be on the Betas when Avid was in control, and I had many logs and emails of issues and simple feature requests that are still over looked to this day...Memo Cam errors, MR issues, etc... Now, with AD under control, for some reason I am not asked to be on the Beta, maybe I annoyed them with my abundance of findings, but if I was a company, I would want people that can find every nook-and-cranny possible, rather than just playing with the new features. Currently, I have over 2 pages of logs with AD tech support, a lot of which have not been updated. I am really happy with the support I get from Manny, he is awesome, but the logs that are still sitting there are bug related - mainly Mental Ray. I don't know how the Beta testing goes now that AD is under control of Softimage, but if I was running it, I would make sure that every Beta tester tests the software with only what comes natively with a released product first, then check to see if 3rd party things work. This major Mental Ray issue, I have to say, if I was on the Beta, would be somewhat embarrassed that this one slipped through.

I guess with my long explanation of things mentioned above one could gather what I would like in 2013, which is what the OP intended...Fix the things that have been neglected forever and build on the things that currently exist.

oktawu
04-15-2011, 06:10 PM
u know what they say...different strokes for different folks...
sometimes i wonder though, how come this type of discussion happens most of time in softimage related forums...
makes u wonder
ps. and yea, there's no need for that hirazi, we're still cool around here.

Bullit
04-15-2011, 06:30 PM
Let's not overreact.
The problem of ICE is how it is exposed in Softimage. It makes a shock to many.

For example terminology issues.

Example Pooby tutorial 5. http://vimeo.com/19035324

He brings a "Drag" force to make the sphere points return to the start position.
Why such a precise term? Why instead of "Drag" not use a much more simpler concept like "Resistance" that everyone knows. And use Resistance term everytime . When a force is applied there is resistance to that force, everyone knows that.

ICE should have some key concepts that explain it. That ICE key concepts should be linked to physics and the math world around us using in preference concepts that everyone learned in school.

Let's make an exercise for those that are experts in ICE define in 10 concept words that are in ICE nodes that can define the logic of ICE. Note that each of 10 terms that you use must be in ICE nodes you can't use any word that isn't in ICE nodes. If 10 aren't enough just add more but it should remain at manageable level.

ShaderOp
04-15-2011, 07:08 PM
.
.
.

QFATA (Quoted For Almost Total Agreement)

Raff, you've always been a straight shooter, and I admire you immensely for that. Unfortunately very few of us have the kind of backstage access you have. So I think it would be understandable if some people were to have a different understanding of AD's marketing (as nonexistent as it is) and a different interpretation of were Softimage is heading. It's only fair to cut those people some slack, regardless of how correct or incorrect they are.

luceric
04-15-2011, 08:13 PM
I think that ICE is good, but the complete lack of updates on the whole other part of the software is just bad in my opinion.

You could add a tiny bit of things here and there to please people who really cant get a grip with ICE, instead of fully update only ICE for 3 years.
We do. For example in Softimage 2012,



we revamped the Weight Editor so that it can edit normal weight maps and color-at-vertices and made workflow enhancements in there
we added unfold pinning in the texture editor
we enabled Quicktime in 64-bit
We created a new Layer Group feature in the Scene Layer editor
we updated the schematic view to show links for scripted operators, and more hot keys
we have a new Syflex. Sure, it's based on ICE, but it's faster and has a few more fixes
interopability with Mudbox.
Revamp FBX import/export, stereo cameras
tons of SDK enhancements, new events, new API, new Interactive tools SDK
Reference Models and other fixes (I don't think our public list contains them all)
http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/index.php/New_Features_for_Softimage_2012_%28version_10.0%29
http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/index.php/Autodesk_Softimage_2012




(http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/index.php/New_Features_for_Softimage_2012_%28version_10.0%29)

grahamef
04-15-2011, 08:25 PM
Let's not overreact.
The problem of ICE is how it is exposed in Softimage. It makes a shock to many.

For example terminology issues.

Example Pooby tutorial 5. http://vimeo.com/19035324

He brings a "Drag" force to make the sphere points return to the start position.
Why such a precise term? Why instead of "Drag" not use a much more simpler concept like "Resistance" that everyone knows. And use Resistance term everytime . When a force is applied there is resistance to that force, everyone knows that.

ICE should have some key concepts that explain it. That ICE key concepts should be linked to physics and the math world around us using in preference concepts that everyone learned in school.

Let's make an exercise for those that are experts in ICE define in 10 concept words that are in ICE nodes that can define the logic of ICE. Note that each of 10 terms that you use must be in ICE nodes you can't use any word that isn't in ICE nodes. If 10 aren't enough just add more but it should remain at manageable level.

Actually, drag *IS* a real-world, physical concept: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_%28physics%29

Moreover, drag is in the direction opposite to movement, unlike resistance to force (a.k.a. inertia) which is in the direction opposite to the force applied. So, "drag" is the appropriate and correct term for that node.

Rez007
04-15-2011, 08:29 PM
We do. For example in Softimage 2012,


we revamped the Weight Editor so that it can edit normal weight maps and color-at-vertices and made workflow enhancements in there
we added unfold pinning in the texture editor
we enabled Quicktime in 64-bit
We created a new Layer Group feature in the Scene Layer editor
we updated the schematic view to show links for scripted operators, and more hot keys
we have a new Syflex. Sure, it's based on ICE, but it's faster and has a few more fixes
interopability with Mudbox.
Revamp FBX import/export, stereo cameras
tons of SDK enhancements, new events, new API, new Interactive tools SDK
Reference Models and other fixes (I don't think our public list contains them all)
http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/index.php/New_Features_for_Softimage_2012_%28version_10.0%29
http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/index.php/Autodesk_Softimage_2012




(http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/index.php/New_Features_for_Softimage_2012_%28version_10.0%29)



Thats great that you guys did those things too, but there are still a lot that gets consistently overlooked... (i.e.) Did you guys fix that Memo Camera bug that I have had for over many years and many releases that I have reported numerous times and has been logged - on every release? That is a really frustrating one and is quite a hinderance.

PiotrekM
04-15-2011, 08:51 PM
sometimes i wonder though, how come this type of discussion happens most of time in softimage related forums...
makes u wonder


yea right. there are tons of these kind of topics in 3ds/maya forums. with people bitching about bugs/features/lack of dev

Zerflag
04-15-2011, 09:01 PM
favorite/best 2012 update:
Quicktime in 64-bit (seriously)
second favorite:
editing of weightmaps in the weight editor (but still wish that smooth op was available for all map types)

best ice update/bugfix:
fixed iceattributes being aggressively culled on scene open if the referenced object has not been loaded yet (hosed icetrees on reference models referencing objects other than self)

of course the other ice stuff is amazing too, but in terms of immediate production impact, these are the best, imo.

Bullit
04-15-2011, 09:03 PM
I know that drag is a physical concept.A car moving is also a force against Air. But it does not encompasses all Resistance.
When i have said Why instead of "Drag" not use a much more simpler concept like "Resistance"
I should have said: Why instead of "Drag" not use a much more broad concept like "Resistance"

Rez007
04-15-2011, 09:08 PM
yea right. there are tons of these kind of topics in 3ds/maya forums. with people bitching about bugs/features/lack of dev

That is for sure true, and will happen no matter where you go. I like to think that Softimage users "usually" go about it in a different manner as I think there is a greater care for the software we use. Max and Maya are riddled with piraters and people that jump from package to package, as where I think Softimage users tend to be more longterm users who do invest money in a product that they care about, and do not want it to go the route of the other two. That is why I think there is more of a "passion" behind the debates/coversations, that no matter the negativity that is displayed, it is usually constructive in one form or another.

Zerflag
04-15-2011, 09:09 PM
I know that drag is a physical concept.A car moving is also a force against Air. But it does not encompasses all Resistance.
When i have said
I should have said: Why instead of "Drag" not use a much more broad concept like "Resistance"

resistance would require a directional input, no? the drag compound uses pointvelocity to get the direction.

that said, taking the drag compound as inspiration, plus a helpful wiki article on say... friction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction to get some bit of accuracy in to the mix, you can build and share a "resistance" compound with the community.

luceric
04-15-2011, 09:16 PM
Thats great that you guys did those things too, but there are still a lot that gets consistently overlooked... (i.e.) Did you guys fix that Memo Camera bug that I have had for over many years and many releases that I have reported numerous times and has been logged - on every release? That is a really frustrating one and is quite a hinderance.

Ha yes, the good ol', "but you didn't fix my one bug" reply - an internet classic :)

I checked in our database and we have one memo cam bug report from you, closed as not reproducable. All your report said "Preset cameras sometimes go away on layout change from Compositor to default. Especially when going from the compositor layout to the default layout. Happens once in a while" Computers are not random.. stuff must be reproducable under some circonstances and the QA spent time on it and didn't find anything.

Btw if this was a big deal I would have guess it would have been reported by many the thousands users, but I haven't found other references. Not saying the bug doesn't exist, but we're not psychics and cannot find things that 'happen once in a while'. We need defect reports that are actionable, we have thousands of reports in the database.

Rez007
04-15-2011, 10:16 PM
Ha yes, the good ol', "but you didn't fix my one bug" reply - an internet classic :)

I checked in our database and we have one memo cam bug report from you, closed as not reproducable. All your report said "Preset cameras sometimes go away on layout change from Compositor to default. Especially when going from the compositor layout to the default layout. Happens once in a while" Computers are not random.. stuff must be reproducable under some circonstances and the QA spent time on it and didn't find anything.

Btw if this was a big deal it should be reported by many the thousands users, but I haven't seen anything else. Not saying the bug doesn't exist, but we're not psychics and cannot find things that 'happen once in a while'. We need defect reports that are actionable, and with thousands of reports in the database, the clearer ones and the high priority ones for many people get the priority

Fantastic attitude from someone that works at AD - very professional. I am unsure, but didn't you violate terms of Agreement that I have with AD by giving away information to the public that I posted in a confidential manner with AD without my consent? - I might be wrong. As for why the others not being there, dont know why there is only one maybe it was just resent instead of a new user case created. Hence, if you look at the date created and last modified there is about 1.5+ years gap, maybe phone conversations that take place with support, listing a number of incidences at one time it might have gotten missed. This is something that has been an issue for a long time - and your "we spent time on it and could not reproduce it" sometimes takes longer than a quick ol' once over. The "happens once in a while" that you like to take out of context from a header where shortness and clarity is usually required (phone conversatoins are ticketed by your support team, not always personaly by me) as I made clear in my finding and the phone conversations that the scene becomes "dirty" over time by flipping between the two layouts, once that "dirtyness" takes place it will happen everytime the scene is opended... but then, let me guess no one uses FXTree anymore, everyone uses Nuke or something else argruement comes along, that may be why not many experience it. I know for sure I am not the only one also that this has happened to during my conversation with AD...definitely not high priority, but it's there.

I do acknowledge the work you guys do and I was in no way implying that you didn't fix my "one bug" to be some sort of "gotcha," if that is the way you took it, oh well. Maybe taking the time to actually look into it further and asking me about it rather than looking up a history report and plastering on here would have been better served. ;)

oktawu
04-15-2011, 10:22 PM
yea right. there are tons of these kind of topics in 3ds/maya forums. with people bitching about bugs/features/lack of dev

pardon my lack of details on that one. i was reffering to the whole "let's-all-pour-our-bitterness-towards-each-other" kind of attitude...
i've yet to see that one in a houdini forum...

luceric
04-15-2011, 10:52 PM
Fantastic attitude from someone that works at AD - very professional. I am unsure, but didn't you violate terms of Agreement that I have with AD by giving away information to the public that that I posted in a confidential manner with AD without my consent? - I might be wrong. As for why the others not being there, dont know why there is only one maybe it was just resent instead of a new user case created. Hence, if you look at the date created and last modified there is about 1.5+ years gap, maybe phone conversations that take place with support, listing a number of incidences at one time it might have gotten missed. This is something that has been an issue for a long time - and your "we spent time on it and could not reproduce it" sometimes takes longer than a quick ol' once over
This is really all that I have, these 5 lines. I'm posting to explain that the report is not currently opened, and hoping you'll have more information. I do not actually have any access to the customer support history, case numbers, etc. That's a totally different system that belongs to the support team. At my level, bugs in the development database get assigned to a QA , who attempts to nail reproduce them, and that gets escalated back to me for triage to a developer.

I'm not sure what problem you're running into, but I did write the code that saves and loads view properties (12 years ago). If you have multiple layouts with view managers (i.e. the view with the 4 viewports), then there is a system that tries to match the view settings to different layouts (first setting, first layout, second setting, second layout) that can produce unexpected results sometimes (especially between machines or software versions because they have layouts in a different order). Perhaps you're encountering that. It's not about the composting layouts per see, but using different layouts that have view managers. The single monitor compositing layout, of course, doesn't have a view manager and therefore would make this behavior unreproducable for a QA trying to nail this down

Rez007
04-15-2011, 11:09 PM
This is really all that I have, these 5 lines. I'm posting to explain that the report is not currently opened, and hoping you'll have more information. I do not actually have any access to the customer support history, case numbers, etc. That's a totally different system that belongs to the support team. At my level, bugs in the development database get assigned to a QA , who attempts to nail reproduce them, and that gets escalated back to me for triage to a developer.

I'm not sure what problem you're running into, but I did write the code that saves and loads view properties (12 years ago). If you have multiple layouts with view managers (i.e. the view with the 4 viewports), then there is a system that tries to match the view settings to different layouts (first setting, first layout, second setting, second layout) that can produce unexpected results sometimes (especially between machines or software versions because they have layouts in a different order). Perhaps you're encountering that. It's not about the composting layouts per see, but using different layouts that have view managers. The single monitor compositing layout, of course, doesn't have a view manager and therefore would make this behavior unreproducable for a QA trying to nail this down

I tried PMing you my bug issue on here, as to not want to hijack this thread from its intended purpose, but you have your private messages blocked. I can open another case file if you like on AD with attention to you so I can explain it better, and hopefully we can nail this thing down. I use and really like the FXTree a lot, and like you said, it is most likely not an FXTree issue but a switching layout issue that is causing it (I just noticed it with the FXTree). It is certainly not high pripority to others, but it is to me, as you will loose all your Memoed Cameras during a switch once the scene becomes "dirty," and even if you recreate the memoed cams and resave...they still become lost. Thanks.

ThE_JacO
04-16-2011, 03:42 AM
If I don't post the forum is forsaken, if I post anything that isn't helping somebody finding a button I'm apparently attacking people.
If AD doesn't post, they don't give a ****, if they do, they get insulted or their statements nitpicked.
If Soft builds the platform to enable 3rd party developers and large scale adoption, they forsook the small user, if they don't and toss in a million retarded small commands, they aren't working on the back-end and stability before adding inane little features.
If they adopt the latest MRay, it sucks, if they don't, why aren't they doing it like max and chucking in a shit release like everybody else?!
The small user feels unlistened to, that's why the small user doesn't even speak up, because they aren't gonna listen in first place right?
XSI is for the big shops, XSI isn't used enough in the big shops...

There's no winning this one.

I thought about explaining what I posted and why, why it wasn't an attack to anybody and all that, but frankly, I'm tired of the tit for tat responses. If a person's reaction to debate is to nerd-rage out of a discussion two posts in and ask for their account to be deleted, then so be it, I'm not going to waste my time onit.
Go ahead, ragequit like this is a battlefield2 forum instead of explaining yourself if that makes you feel better, it's cool with me, less moderation work and hours off my day to deal with veiled insults and insinuations that I don't even read posts before responding.

Thanks to the rest for the compliments, bigger thanks again for the constructive criticism be it here, in other threads or in PM.
I'm bowing out of this and will consider changing my style of moderation to be more in line with what goes on elsewhere, which usually boils down to removing threads that I don't care for trying to steer, and let people post piles of crap for everybody else to freely consume, elaborate on, or whinge about as they feel.

Internet drama, love it!

booyabase
04-16-2011, 10:59 AM
some post I have to read twice to believe my eyes. pulling in a specific bug report and lament that it got not that high priority is one thing. but then, when one responsible person tries to explain why sometimes thing go that way on this specific bug, blaming that one for being unprofessional is quite 'unexpectable'.
I use XSI since version 1 but switched more to Houdini since version 8, but still everytime I work with XSI I feel comfortable with this fine piece of software. And ICE is great. Nobody at odforce laughs about this, that's simply not the style of most people there. Some people want there tool to be powerfull and mighty, but that means You have to grow, too. What kind of software design do You have in mind, I only can hear some whining that it is so complicated and difficult. What do You want it to look like. mh, press buttons? I think that is the wrong way. then You will end up with 200 buttons, and every time someone shows something You can say oh lool that was button 134. I prefer it the way softimage implemented it. the users that are willing to do their homework can get great stuff out of this system. there are tons of books out there that get You started with vectors and matrices. If You don't like that, maybe the TD job is not Your part. That does not mean anything bad, modeling , scultping, texturing, compositing, animation that are all great fields in that job, but they are hard work, too, to learn. There will be always a point where You are frustrated and need assistance. But luckily there are places like this, for example where You can find help. That brings me to the next point. You don't have to glorify software developers and forum moderators, but just respect the time and effort they spent to either assist users here or run places like this. Regardless if You don't like MAYA, SOFTIMAGE, HOUDINI, MAX and so on, it takes a lot to create such tools, without, most of us would be out of business. and some mods from here do not only help here, they are also active on other forums and mailing list, spending their time helping others.
Just think about it.

RebelPixel
04-16-2011, 11:51 AM
It is unbelievable how people react in such bad way, i mean there been 5 pages in wich i just see constructive critics, rez might overreacted a bit, but that is another story.

Its like you dont want people to speak their mind, just shutup and dont say anything, keep softimage as it is bad or good, and shut up.
wow that is so gonna help right?
Wonder what is the use of a forum if not share ideas, confrontation, in good and bad aspects, i dont see anyone here jumping to insult.

Seems everyone is touchy as soon as we rise up softimage problems..
i didnt think to see this reaction really..wow
lets just keep being silent. everything is perfect, peace and love.

@Luceric, appreciate your work and the rest of dev team really i still think there are way to many overlooked things, and keep going this way it'll end up like 3ds max 2011.

i'm done here now

/cheers Rob

ThE_JacO
04-16-2011, 02:43 PM
Its like you dont want people to speak their mind, just shutup and dont say anything, keep softimage as it is bad or good, and shut up.
wow that is so gonna help right?
If anything, I regret not taking this approach sooner, given the amount of valuable users this forum lost thanks to crap like the one that surfaced here, and the ones that stuck around to smear it further.

Wonder what is the use of a forum if not share ideas, confrontation, in good and bad aspects, i dont see anyone here jumping to insult.
I see a lot of whinging and bitching, I haven't seen ideas shared.
For the above, the thread is now being closed, and will later on be renamed so that come next release what rare times people use the search function, won't dredge this crap up.