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buzzman
04-07-2011, 01:52 PM
Maya 2012 is available for download for subscription customers.

WesHowe
04-07-2011, 01:58 PM
Yes it is, downloading (and downloading and downloading) here. Given my sloowww internet speeds, it may be the 8th before I manage to get it installed. Over 2GB.

<* Wes *>

mustique
04-07-2011, 02:42 PM
Great! Please don't forget to share your opinions with us guys. I still live in 2009. :beer:

fahr
04-07-2011, 03:03 PM
What the....? I'm on subscription but my subscription page shows no links to maya 2012, just the 2011 subscription advantage pack.

EDIT: Looks like the contract manager for the subscription (me) is set to not receive full product downloads, and the setting is read-only so it can't be changed. Thanks Autodesk!! :banghead:

cesboa
04-07-2011, 05:03 PM
Downloaded, testet and already deemed to very unstable - random crashes all around.

Kui
04-07-2011, 05:06 PM
Up and running!

Only had a chance to test three things so far:

- Enabling Depth of field in Viewport 2.0 immediately freezes my Mac Pro, completely. Hard reset, 2nd time.

- Render Settings for Mental Ray: switching from Common tab to Quality tab still takes some seconds.

- Interface in general feels the same as in 2011 in terms of responsivness.

Will look for more soon.

jipe
04-07-2011, 06:08 PM
1. Selected channels in the channel box still deselect when you do things like select keys in the graph editor. This bug is a byproduct of last year's interface change. It was previously only annoying to those of us who used scripts like abxSmartKey (to filter certain channels and then set keys on those channels with Set Key). Now everyone can be annoyed by this bug because Autodesk built the script's functionality into the channel box (options to sync Graph Editor and Timeline display with currently selected channels). Wait, what? That sounds like a great feature, right?

Except if you select a channel and it filters in the timeline+graph editor, then you go the graph editor and try to move keys around, your selected channels will be deselected. Then Maya, because it is working like you told it to, will remove all the curves from your graph editor because you have no channels selected. Literally this new feature appears to be totally useless because of the channel box selection bug. If you still can't visualize this problem, I created an internal monologue for Maya's decision-making:

"SURE THING, SYNCING SELECTED CHANNELS IN THE GRAPH EDITOR."
"OH HEY, I SEE YOU'RE TRYING TO MOVE KEYS. I WILL DESELECT THOSE CHANNELS YOU JUST SELECTED."
"WHOA, YOU DON'T HAVE ANY CHANNELS SELECTED, SO I'M GOING TO RE-SYNC YOUR GRAPH EDITOR TO DISPLAY NOTHING."

I pay my subscription fee because I value Maya in my workflow, but this is pretty hilarious. And frustrating.

2. The new motion trails apparently don't show actual frame-by-frame spacing (unless you have a key on every frame). I know similar tools are known as "arc trackers", but animators use them for checking arcs and spacing. It would be really helpful if the tool had an option to display each frame's location along the curve -- and a way to identify which marker was the current frame. Definitely something to iterate for next year, I guess, but the foundation is there (love the x-ray feature).

3. One-click key editing in the graph editor is amazing; this simple feature singlehandedly halved my daily clicks. I would pretty much be sending chocolate to Maya's dev team if they didn't screw #1 up so badly.

Update: One-click key editing does not work properly if you select channels in the channel box and return to the graph editor -- even if you have the new Left Mouse Button Alters Selections turned on. You still have to keep re-activating the move keys tool every time you switch between the channel box and the graph editor. This is pretty hilarious. The channel box deselects itself when you start using the graph editor, and vice versa. I might cry.

4. Isolate Curve is nice. It would be super great if it also had the new channel box sync feature (where Set Key only keys the visible curves).

BoostAbuse
04-07-2011, 07:47 PM
1. Selected channels in the channel box still deselect when you do things like select keys in the graph editor. This bug is a byproduct of last year's interface change. It was previously only annoying to those of us who used scripts like abxSmartKey (to filter certain channels and then set keys on those channels with Set Key). Now everyone can be annoyed by this bug because Autodesk built the script's functionality into the channel box (options to sync Graph Editor and Timeline display with currently selected channels). Wait, what? That sounds like a great feature, right?

Except if you select a channel and it filters in the timeline+graph editor, then you go the graph editor and try to move keys around, your selected channels will be deselected. Then Maya, because it is working like you told it to, will remove all the curves from your graph editor because you have no channels selected. Literally this new feature appears to be totally useless because of the channel box selection bug. If you still can't visualize this problem, I created an internal monologue for Maya's decision-making:

"SURE THING, SYNCING SELECTED CHANNELS IN THE GRAPH EDITOR."
"OH HEY, I SEE YOU'RE TRYING TO MOVE KEYS. I WILL DESELECT THOSE CHANNELS YOU JUST SELECTED."
"WHOA, YOU DON'T HAVE ANY CHANNELS SELECTED, SO I'M GOING TO RE-SYNC YOUR GRAPH EDITOR TO DISPLAY NOTHING."


Hmmmm yeah that one is a bit finicky because it's shifting focus to the selected key rather than the selected UI item. I'll need to have a look into this one and see just what's going on under the hood.


2. The new motion trails apparently don't show actual frame-by-frame spacing (unless you have a key on every frame). I know similar tools are known as "arc trackers", but animators use them for checking arcs and spacing. It would be really helpful if the tool had an option to display each frame's location along the curve -- and a way to identify which marker was the current frame. Definitely something to iterate for next year, I guess, but the foundation is there (love the x-ray feature).

Do you mean showing you actual frame ticks for the timeline as well as the keys? Some design ideas were tossed around about drawing frames themselves but I just didn't feel satisfied with the idea we had of alternating colours.


3. One-click key editing in the graph editor is amazing; this simple feature singlehandedly halved my daily clicks. I would pretty much be sending chocolate to Maya's dev team if they didn't screw #1 up so badly.

Update: One-click key editing does not work properly if you select channels in the channel box and return to the graph editor -- even if you have the new Left Mouse Button Alters Selections turned on. You still have to keep re-activating the move keys tool every time you switch between the channel box and the graph editor. This is pretty hilarious. The channel box deselects itself when you start using the graph editor, and vice versa. I might cry.

Hmmm... yeah that doesn't sound right at all.


4. Isolate Curve is nice. It would be super great if it also had the new channel box sync feature (where Set Key only keys the visible curves).

Pretty neat idea! I like it :)

arnietello
04-07-2011, 08:21 PM
Hi Shawn,
Do you know if the audio sync bug when playblasting on the Mac is fixed in Maya 2012? On 2011, when you playblast a range of the timeline it offsets the audio track incorrectly. I don't think it got fixed in any Maya 2011 updates.

Horganovski
04-07-2011, 10:01 PM
Just having a quick look here, my first impression with Viewport 2.0 is that manipulating the controllers on a medium poly skinned character seems much more sluggish with it on compared to the default renderer. Scrolling around the character seems unaffected, but posing the character feels very slow. So I guess I'll be working in the default viewport for animating and then switching to V2.0 for nice playblasts for the moment..

(Win 7 64, nVidia GTX 580, quad 9550)

Cheers,
Brian)

fahr
04-07-2011, 10:08 PM
It's my understanding that viewport 2.0 does nothing to accelerate skinning, or rigs, or anything like that. Just polys, lighting and textures are accelerated. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Horganovski
04-07-2011, 10:16 PM
I could live with that, one other issue I'm having here is that I cannot get the 'timing beads' of the editable motion trails to display. No matter what I select and/or switch I can't get the black dots and 'x's that the demonstrator gets in the video on this feature on the AD site. Bit of a bummer for me as that's a pretty handy tool for what I do. Interested to know if it works for others, or maybe a graphics card issue or something like that. All my prefs are default.

Cheers,
Brian

buzzman
04-07-2011, 10:27 PM
DMM shattering/physics plugin is crippled to 1500 tetrahedra objects. The "full" version of the plugin is $599 USD.

cesboa
04-07-2011, 10:39 PM
Yha that sucks, why do Autodesk bundle trial ware - It's like shareware CDes from the 90'ies that was included in PC magazines.

tkdmatt
04-07-2011, 10:44 PM
- Render Settings for Mental Ray: switching from Common tab to Quality tab still takes some seconds.

This isn't a bug and probably won't change anytime soon, as soon as you hit that Quality tab it generates all the mental ray rendering nodes in your scene, and is therefore fast after that.

Untick "Show dag objects only" in the outliner to see them get created.

rock
04-07-2011, 11:00 PM
Yha that sucks, why do Autodesk bundle trial ware - It's like shareware CDes from the 90'ies that was included in PC magazines.

To fund bug fixes, Autodesk may, in the future, also put banners and advertisement into Maya, right above the shelves area.

Bullit
04-07-2011, 11:08 PM
To fund bug fixes, Autodesk may, in the future, also put banners and advertisement into Maya, right above the shelves area.

That would be a good idea to have a cheap version for everyone.

BoostAbuse
04-07-2011, 11:31 PM
It's my understanding that viewport 2.0 does nothing to accelerate skinning, or rigs, or anything like that. Just polys, lighting and textures are accelerated. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Actually in 2012 we implemented a Vertex Animation Cache option in the Viewport 2.0 settings that when enabled will cache animated meshes to the GPU and run almost entirely off the GPU at a much faster frame rate. The caveat is there can't be nodes downstream of the skinning that cause a dirty call (smooth node for example) which will force a DG eval and push you off the GPU.

There is also a Thread Dependency Graph Evaluation option however I should explain this a bit more so people don't get confused. The idea here is that we are able to evaluate characters with similar structures (i.e. rigs) in parallel inside of Viewport 2.0 to better enhance multiple character playback. This does not mean Maya's totally threaded and if people would like more details on this feel free to PM me and we can dive a bit further into the techy details.

arnitello: I don't know off the top of my head but let me double check and I'll get back to you on that one.

cesboa
04-07-2011, 11:33 PM
To fund bug fixes, Autodesk may, in the future, also put banners and advertisement into Maya, right above the shelves area.
Hahaha, I had that same feeling when I saw the 1500 tetrahedra objects limitation.
"Maya 2013: Maya now has RenderMan Studio included and Nuke replaces Toxik... You just have to pay"... Back to the workshop guys :wip:

That would be a good idea to have a cheap version for everyone.
2012 feels very cheap so far, but somehow subscription price stays the same :)

Horganovski
04-07-2011, 11:41 PM
No amount of fiddling here can display Timing beads on the Editable Motion trails : (

Do they work for anyone?

Cheers,
Brian

BoostAbuse
04-08-2011, 12:16 AM
No amount of fiddling here can display Timing beads on the Editable Motion trails : (

Do they work for anyone?

Cheers,
Brian

Do you have the key selected? If the key is selected then once you've swiped In or Out beads from the marking menu or enabled elsewhere you should see it for the active key. Also make sure you have Weighted Tangents enabled (Graph Editor -> Curves -> Weighted Tangents).

marcovn
04-08-2011, 12:29 AM
hmmm, weird. Doesn't work for me either (win7, x64, nvidia).
AND: the single click keymoving in the graphEditor doesn't work too. (yes, in preferences the switch is on and in the editor the first icon is clicked)

Horganovski
04-08-2011, 12:37 AM
Many thanks, switching on Weighted Tangents on got them working. So used to leaving that off, makes sense of course that you can't tweak the spacing otherwise.

Re the deforming character being sluggish in Viewport 2.0, indeed deleting the Smooth on the mesh did the trick, now it's nice and fast here. It's weird though as it was set to 0 subdivisions (tied to a custom attribute on one of the controllers) so I don't see why deleting it helps, but it does.

Cheers,
Brian

BoostAbuse
04-08-2011, 12:41 AM
Re the deforming character being sluggish in Viewport 2.0, indeed deleting the Smooth on the mesh did the trick, now it's nice and fast here. It's weird though as it was set to 0 subdivisions (tied to a custom attribute on one of the controllers) so I don't see why deleting it helps, but it does.

Cheers,
Brian

Yeah it's a bit weird but the DG gets fussy over downstream history nodes so even if it's set to 0 it still gets eval'd on playback and flags a topology change. Something I'd love to change :)

WesHowe
04-08-2011, 02:13 AM
I get very mixed results between loading 2011 files and creating new objects in Viewport 2.0. Newly-created stuff seems to work well, older meshes using the same texture and normal maps shows hosed. While this is still a big issue for me, at least until there is some way to fix it, it at least makes me think that my first negative impressions of Viewport 2.0 were not completely justified.

<* Wes *>

BoostAbuse
04-08-2011, 02:42 AM
I get very mixed results between loading 2011 files and creating new objects in Viewport 2.0. Newly-created stuff seems to work well, older meshes using the same texture and normal maps shows hosed. While this is still a big issue for me, at least until there is some way to fix it, it at least makes me think that my first negative impressions of Viewport 2.0 were not completely justified.

<* Wes *>

Odd question but what happens if you load the file, save it out using 2012 (just create a test file) and then reload it into VP2?

Venkman
04-08-2011, 04:27 AM
DMM shattering/physics plugin is crippled to 1500 tetrahedra objects.

Is that enough to do anything nice looking?

WesHowe
04-08-2011, 05:39 AM
Odd question but what happens if you load the file, save it out using 2012 (just create a test file) and then reload it into VP2?

I got the same result. The mesh is completely white in VP2, unless I turn on AO, in which case I have the expected parts shaded in greys. Motion Blur works, Gamma correction lightens the scene somewhat, but all white. I created a new blinn shader, assigned the same texture and normal files and assigned that to the mesh (Render Menu) and it is still the same (even after another save/reload).

Beats me... If I make a new cube and assign the same shader to it and place it alongside the mesh, it is shaded correctly. See below:

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/161/20110407233504.th.png (http://img215.imageshack.us/i/20110407233504.png/)

I also tried filing a bug report on my ALT+MMB problem, but I couldn't set the program field to Maya 2012.

<* Wes *>

BoostAbuse
04-08-2011, 06:13 AM
If you can hit me with A) files and B) a summary of what you're seeing I'll get it in the system and pass you a bug # you can track.

That's really strange that old scenes are coming in pure white and I'm not sure typing in `ogs -reset;` into the MEL command bar would tell VP2 to refresh itself. Are they default shading networks or CgFX shaders etc? I'm honestly stumped at why it's drawing pure white for older files...

-s

cesboa
04-08-2011, 10:14 AM
Hi Shawn,
Do you know if the audio sync bug when playblasting on the Mac is fixed in Maya 2012? On 2011, when you playblast a range of the timeline it offsets the audio track incorrectly. I don't think it got fixed in any Maya 2011 updates.

No it still hasn't been fixed... So 50 angry animators is running around bashing AutoDesk asking why we still are paying subscription....

So for over a year now we have had the most unusable playblasts any package has ever offered.. bonus!

Bullit
04-08-2011, 01:54 PM
For all this issues here and with 3dsmax i wonder what beta testers do. At least it seems it isn't widespread enough.

WesHowe
04-08-2011, 02:54 PM
I'm not sure typing in `ogs -reset;` into the MEL command bar would tell VP2 to refresh itself. Are they default shading networks or CgFX shaders etc?


ogs -reset did nothing visible except print some interesting info on the message window.

Just a standard blinn shader linked to a file texture and a file normal texture. But it's not the shader, I built a new one fresh, it's something to do with the mesh. Even the new shader won't texture it, but it works on new geometry.

I'll send the files as soon as I get a PM back with an addy.

<* Wes *>

arnietello
04-08-2011, 03:50 PM
No it still hasn't been fixed... So 50 angry animators is running around bashing AutoDesk asking why we still are paying subscription....

So for over a year now we have had the most unusable playblasts any package has ever offered.. bonus!

Bummer, I hope it gets fixed soon. :(

BoostAbuse
04-08-2011, 04:13 PM
ogs -reset did nothing visible except print some interesting info on the message window.

Just a standard blinn shader linked to a file texture and a file normal texture. But it's not the shader, I built a new one fresh, it's something to do with the mesh. Even the new shader won't texture it, but it works on new geometry.

I'll send the files as soon as I get a PM back with an addy.

<* Wes *>

Got it and just pinged you back in an email with the fix.

I'm looking further into the sound offset now.

WesHowe
04-08-2011, 04:39 PM
It works. Good job, and fast.

I don't know how the color set got there, other than that Maya 2011 just did it when I made the original, or perhaps the FBX importer code. But the fix is easy enough (delete the color set).

Here it is in VP 2.0:

http://img862.imageshack.us/img862/6910/hunterin2012vp2.png (http://img862.imageshack.us/i/hunterin2012vp2.png/)

<* Wes *>

cesboa
04-08-2011, 05:53 PM
Got it and just pinged you back in an email with the fix.

I'm looking further into the sound offset now.

"Sound offset" as in the playblast issue that has been going around for over a year? I have reported multiple times to AutoDesk. Confirmed that it was an error, but hotfix after hotfix it's still broken :sad:

goodvibrato
04-08-2011, 08:20 PM
Is iRay in Maya 2012? One of the things I was most looking forward to.

SheepFactory
04-08-2011, 08:21 PM
Is iRay in Maya 2012? One of the things I was most looking forward to.

It is not.

oktawu
04-08-2011, 10:07 PM
why do people still bother?
get a vray license and forget about mental ray altogether.

sethfair
04-08-2011, 10:18 PM
2012 feels very cheap so far, but somehow subscription price stays the same :)

Maya full version upgrades are steep. Putting everything you get over 3 years of upgrades with the subscription far out weighs a full version upgrade price.

Magnus3D
04-08-2011, 10:58 PM
I'm considering downloading the trial and see what's hot & new, but after reading about all the issues and problems i'm beginning to have some doubts about it. Maybe it's best to wait until it's usable.

/ Magnus

BigPixolin
04-09-2011, 12:15 AM
For all this issues here and with 3dsmax i wonder what beta testers do. At least it seems it isn't widespread enough.


You answered your own question.

BoostAbuse
04-09-2011, 12:28 AM
I'm considering downloading the trial and see what's hot & new, but after reading about all the issues and problems i'm beginning to have some doubts about it. Maybe it's best to wait until it's usable.

/ Magnus

Give the trial a shot and see if it works for you. I honestly have not seen many major issues or showstoppers brought forth by people but if you hit them just communicate them to me and I'll look into it.

Ballo
04-09-2011, 03:00 AM
I still have the same problems with transparencies in high quality or viewport2.0. All my happiness went away. :/ and ScreenSpace AO doesn't work with transparencies.

DuttyFoot
04-09-2011, 06:21 AM
Cory put this up over at the area, check it out and leave your input

What do you like best in Maya 2012?

http://area.autodesk.com/blogs/cory/what_do_you_like_best_in_maya_2012

Is iRay in Maya 2012? One of the things I was most looking forward to.

not directly it seems, rbrady said he was able to get it to work.

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?p=6938661#post6938661

goodvibrato
04-09-2011, 11:30 AM
Cory put this up over at the area, check it out and leave your input

What do you like best in Maya 2012?

http://area.autodesk.com/blogs/cory/what_do_you_like_best_in_maya_2012



not directly it seems, rbrady said he was able to get it to work.

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?p=6938661#post6938661
Yeah, it looks like he just copied 3Ds Max's DLLs for iRay and put it in a maya folder. If it's really that simple--a couple DLLs--I'm pretty upset with Autodesk for not just giving Maya the functionality in the first place. They all use the same renderer so why withhold functionality from us when we all pay for the same thing? I've never been dissatisfied with Autodesk until now. Just think that was a crummy thing to do.

IestynRoberts
04-09-2011, 09:10 PM
Anyone got any feedback on the animation Motion Trail, I'd love to know more about that bad boy.

sethfair
04-09-2011, 09:52 PM
Has anyone had any problems with viewport 2.0? It seemed many of the new features and additions are here and I'm unable to see any shaded geometry when I turn this feature on. I can only see wireframe and when i turn it to shaded, it disappears from the viewport. I suppose it could be a graphics card issue. Im running OSX 10.6.7 and RadeonX1900 graphics card.

kelgy
04-09-2011, 11:10 PM
I downloaded the trial and was able to see the viewport 2.0 effect on a simple model of saturn with the transparent rings I had made in maya 2009
but it didnt work for me on more complicated scenes frm older files. I got a warning about low memory usage
I have a Gforce gts 8800 card

On the other hand I rendered a frame from a scene that took 2 minutes to render in maya 2011 and it took considerably less in 2012.

republicavfx
04-10-2011, 12:41 AM
im running quad phenom, quadro 3700, 8 gigs, been playing with this all day

viewport 2 runs ok...with all effects on. 6 simple cubes and spheres scene i get like 3 fps but thats with environment reflections, bump ao, full AA etc. the materials are too slugish to to serious updates to but they look nice. also insert edge loop seems flaky in VP 2.0

the big problem is i find that the text contents of the outliner and channel box seem to dissappear and it becomes difficult to press stop when im playing the scene. i press stop and it keeps playing. this happens with physx too and it stops if i use physx button but not if i use regular play button. interface returns after restart....veryy annoying tho

nparticle meshing is significantly faster, textured(only) fluids are very fast now, rigid ncloth shells work as advertised...quite nice.

no effects assets in visor

viewport animation curve seems like it might be very useful

yawn about modelling updates.

fluid updates might be interesting but this machine too slow to run the demos....like w a y to slow

wheres the extended marking menu on ´Q´ left button click now i cant turn off an on soft selection easily. i know ´W´ has some similarities but i liked ´Q´

oh...that DMM is sad....simple cube default setting and it asks me to make a purchase. not a very classy move IMO

WesHowe
04-10-2011, 02:23 AM
wheres the extended marking menu on ´Q´ left button click now i cant turn off an on soft selection easily.

Someone else pointed out that camera-based selection was also left off the marking menu.

I couldn't find the FBIK menu in 2012. Seems they were turned off by default, and this line needs to be executed (presumably in userSetup.mel) to enable them:
optionVar -intValue showFbikMenuItem 1;

I know HIK is supposed to be better, but FBIK is a lot easier IMO, and works fine on HIK skeletons.

Horganovski
04-10-2011, 03:03 AM
One thing I'm noticing here is that if the timeline is playing repositioning floating windows (like character GUIs etc) becomes really sluggish. It's as if viewport playback has higher priority or something in 2012.

In 2011 if I try the same thing I can reposition the windows fine, the playback pauses while I drag them, but in 2012 I have to press stop to be able to do it easily.

Cheers,
Brian

cmogk
04-10-2011, 03:34 AM
Yeah, it looks like he just copied 3Ds Max's DLLs for iRay and put it in a maya folder. If it's really that simple--a couple DLLs--I'm pretty upset with Autodesk for not just giving Maya the functionality in the first place. They all use the same renderer so why withhold functionality from us when we all pay for the same thing? I've never been dissatisfied with Autodesk until now. Just think that was a crummy thing to do.

It may "work" but it's not a complete workflow as I understand it - if we exposed it like this would people be happy or would we hear complaints that it's half-assed?

Cory

rock
04-10-2011, 05:04 AM
Does anyone know if viewport 2.0 is the default viewport, out of the box, in Maya 2012? If not, why not? Thanks.

oglu
04-10-2011, 05:24 AM
Viewport 2 is still in pogress, there are several things you cant do with,.. At the moment you could use it vor modeling, rigging and animation,..

WesHowe
04-10-2011, 05:27 AM
Well, it is not the default on a new scene, that is still the 'default quality renderer'. However, a scene that was saved while using Viewport 2.0 opens in Viewport 2.0. That satisfies me, because you can 'have it your way' easily enough.

<* Wes *>

Buexe
04-10-2011, 08:31 AM
wheres the extended marking menu on ´Q´ left button click now i cant turn off an on soft selection easily. i know ´W´ has some similarities but i liked ´Q´

b key to toggle soft selection maybe?

mustique
04-10-2011, 12:39 PM
It may "work" but it's not a complete workflow as I understand it - if we exposed it like this would people be happy or would we hear complaints that it's half-assed?

Cory

Well said. iRay itself is still alpha stage software, thrown in in a hurry to make mentalray look competitive. So the last thing I'd want is to get a half-assed maya implementation of a half-assed technology resulting in a quarter-assed workflow.

stooch
04-10-2011, 02:04 PM
DMM shattering/physics plugin is crippled to 1500 tetrahedra objects. The "full" version of the plugin is $599 USD.

yeah wtf. totally useless. why even add this to maya? its a non feature.

Kabab
04-10-2011, 02:12 PM
yeah wtf. totally useless. why even add this to maya? its a non feature.For marketing purposes...

stooch
04-10-2011, 02:14 PM
Is that enough to do anything nice looking?

lol. :cry: :banghead: no. its awful.

seriously though. I tried maxing out to the allowed tetrahedral count and there is a noticeable slowdown on impact... This is with a single sphere dropping on a passive plane, the tetrahedral count is just under the limit, but i would guess that i would need about 10X to get to a usable amount of detail (for a mid-ground shot) and about 20x for upclose.

now if this was even a half-decently detailed house instead of a sphere... I shudder to think... (just look at the demos on their website, they are all super low res - and I bet I know why).

now to think of it, nice marketing strategy... limit tetrahedral count to hide the fact that it will get slow... sell plugin and then let users crank it to get decent detail and find out that its useless. CHICH CHING.

another thing to note. clearly DMM wasnt written for speed, the fact that the plugin is a python script and takes forever just to load the shelf (adding to maya load time each time you start ) ... for 600 dollars i would expect hardware accelerated shattering and simulation. Funny thing is I had exactly the same impression over a year ago after trying out the demo of their plugin. Its still the same speed... those thinking of upgrading maya to 2012 just for DMM... you might as well just buy the plugin :)

rock
04-10-2011, 03:44 PM
We are all artists. Whether it's 1 polygon or 500 polygons, I am sure that someone will create something beautiful out of the crippled DMM. What is not cool is packaging Maya 2009 with some unsupported Toxik and Match Mover, a new splash screen and called it Maya 2010. What's not even cooler is announcing the crippled DMM, that is not even from Autodesk, as a major feature in Maya 2012. It seem like the same marketing department at work.

stooch
04-10-2011, 03:54 PM
We are all artists. Whether it's 1 polygon or 500 polygons, I am sure that someone will create something beautiful out of the crippled DMM.

Have you actually tried it? No i dont think you can make anything beautiful out of 1 polygon. And even 500 polygons you would be extremely... err. abstract. I would have to strongly disagree with you - with 1500 tetrahedrals you will not make anything short of previs.

Even with 150,000 tetrahedrals you would be SEVERELY limited. Of course you can judge for yourself, just go to their website pixelux.com and take a look at their demos. Would you consider any of those beautiful?

yes I agree, its a dirty dirty marketing trick to say that maya now comes with DMM. no it doesnt. it comes with a crippled, useless demo (which to me is an attempt to hide its performance with decent detail ) that just makes me want to never buy anything from pixelux.

republicavfx
04-10-2011, 04:01 PM
b key to toggle soft selection maybe?

no b key is nice but its useless too for turning off soft selection. extrude a polygon without moving it switch to move tool and use B key to eliminate soft selection. thats right it still moves the extrude vertices plus u get the yellow feedback which is annoying when soft selection is supposed to be off.


I couldn't find the FBIK menu in 2012. Seems they were turned off by default, and this line needs to be executed (presumably in userSetup.mel) to enable them:
Code:
optionVar -intValue showFbikMenuItem 1;

ahh useful..i havent played with human ik i 2012 yet. seemed kind of sucky in 2011 not least because of those big surface shaded controllers plus there were features missing which i liked from fbik...im still using youneedthisman ...lol

WesHowe
04-10-2011, 04:04 PM
Hey, in all fairness these marketing dudes probably started their career at Proctor and Gamble. You know, those are the guys that did some market research and learned that the top three things women (at the time, the undisputed target for the product) were concerned about in dish-washing soap were grease cutting, the smell and mildness to their hands. So they dressed the identical active ingredient up with different colors and perfumes and named them Dawn ("cuts grease"), Lemon-fresh Joy and Ivory ("it's mild to your hands").

At least the differences between Maya, Max and SoftImage are more substantive than that. And it is not just the DMM plug-in. There are 75 or 80 basic substances that ship with Maya 2012. But there are hundreds more available at TurboSquid from these allegoRythmic (sp?) guys at $10 - $15 each.

I haven't tried DMM, but if it is like the reports I have seen, especially with a purchase nag screen, I will turn it off. I turned the Craft animation tools (available in the 2011 SAP) off for the same reason. I don't mind paying for something I need, but I'm not going to tolerate much just because "it's free".

<* Wes *>

mustique
04-10-2011, 04:29 PM
Hey, in all fairness these marketing dudes probably started their career at Proctor and Gamble.>

Very very true. These are the type of marketing guys that become John Sculley's when they reach their own Nirvana. :D

thematt
04-10-2011, 05:25 PM
ok so I had high hope on this version considering the flop that was 2011 for me, and was particulary exited about the viewport 2.0 and the DMM addon, but it seems from what I can read so far that viewport 2.0 is still limited depending on your hardware although a good step forward, but the DMM pluggin looks totally useless, so I'd like to ask autodesk what's the point of adding a pluggin in a very limited version and creating hypes around it?
what exactly do you guys expect the customer are gonna say, like great let's buy that pluggin or what?

I find that ridiculous and almost insulting for those who had hope in that and in the need of something like that, instead of a good commercial move for profesionnal it now become something we are going to laugh about, it's really not what I expect from a software like maya.

I hope autodesk will correct that moove soon enough with a service pack, because right now I feel like I'm being let down, I don't know how you guys using maya feel, but as a customer it makes me angry..
I'll wait and see.
stop of the rent.
cheers

BoostAbuse
04-10-2011, 05:49 PM
ok so I had high hope on this version considering the flop that was 2011 for me, and was particulary exited about the viewport 2.0 and the DMM addon, but it seems from what I can read so far that viewport 2.0 is still limited depending on your hardware although a good step forward, but the DMM pluggin looks totally useless, so I'd like to ask autodesk what's the point of adding a pluggin in a very limited version and creating hypes around it?
what exactly do you guys expect the customer are gonna say, like great let's buy that pluggin or what?

With regards to Viewport 2.0 it has support for cards G80 and up which is pretty good when you consider some other app requirements for GPU's that do hardware effects. If you want AO, 16x MSAA, DOF and Vertex Animation Caching running then yeah you are going to need some beefy hardware and that's just the nature of hardware effects. One thing you can try is disabling vetex animation caching from the VP2 options (change it from Hardware to None or System). System will cache vertices to system memory and None will turn it off entirely if you don't need it and will save you some GPU memory.

As for DMM... I can't really answer that one but ping Cory and let him know your thoughts on this and feel free to provide some suggestions. I've got a few from this thread already that I'll be passing onto the team next week :)

Not sure if you've given the 2012 trial a shot but if you get the chance take it for a spin and see what it's like. If you start finding stuff that bugs you or you feel doesn't live up to your standards hit me with a PM and I'm always open to discussing what can be done to help.

Thanks for your input Matt.

-s

tobbew
04-10-2011, 07:33 PM
I noticed that misss_fast_skin_maya is not on the list of supported shaders for vp2.0, is it something the user could easily fix themselves with mel or would that be complicated? Why is it not supported?

Stellios
04-10-2011, 08:26 PM
yeah wtf. totally useless. why even add this to maya? its a non feature.


This is not only insulting but it is a scam. Embarrassed to be a Maya user right now. Autodesk, correct yourself.

thematt
04-10-2011, 09:55 PM
shawn thanks for caring, I know that you consider us working with maya not as just customer, you've been there so it's good they have you on the team.
I make sure I drop you a Pm and give you my feeling using it. current of the week I supposed, time for us to download and install.
thanks for hearing us.

cheers

Narann
04-11-2011, 01:19 AM
Maybe it's a stupid question (I don't thing it is) but I really wonder what will be the Autodesk policy about mental ray integration (again, I know... :shrug: ).

Let me explain:

Since some versions (3.8, 3.9), mental image change lot of things in mental ray (mainly sampling but also some others usefull things). So there is now many features wich are not easy to integrate in a nice way (and users use some scripts found on the web...).

I suppose Autodesk is in a bad position between continue to add mental ray features over (and over) the current ui or give full access to mental ray options to the user in a common way (wich is not very "nice" to use).

Maybe Atdsk give time to mental image to put some new features wich "break" (not in a technical way) compatibility (all sampling stuff) before return to the integrations.

Maybe there is others reasons but I think users can be aware of them.

I read somewhere (don't remember where, sry) that mr integration was not a priority for Maya (it was about the fact there where no iRay support in 2012). This is very disturbing to read that because I think this is not true at all (at least more than ao screen support /tackle :D ).

So what can we expect for the futur of mayatomr?

Regard,

Dorian

Kabab
04-11-2011, 03:16 AM
I hope autodesk will correct that moove soon enough with a service pack, because right now I feel like I'm being let down, I don't know how you guys using maya feel, but as a customer it makes me angry..
I'll wait and see.
stop of the rent.
cheers
Don't hold your breath all you have to do is look in the past to see what the future holds.. About what 3-4 years ago they said okay we are going to re-write all the dynamics tools in Maya and build a uniform dynamics system called Nucleus..

I think pretty much everyone accepted this as a good idea! So we got Ncloth which is nice and Nparticles great! But lets see where we stand now..

Instead of 1 uniform dynamics solution we have;
Ncloth
Nparticles
Old particles
Old RBD
Fluids
Physx
DMM
Craft

So instead of one uniformed Nucleus based system we have a handful of disparate systems, particularly the last 3 systems I listed, the functionality here should really covered by one Nrigids system which works with Ncloth and Nparticles..

They are really repeating the same mistakes they made with 3dsmax with Maya what's need XBR for Maya??

When it comes to Mental Ray its been what 5 years now and things are still pretty messed up, it was clear from very early one there was major issues with the integration and still its not solved which is pretty embarrassing that 2 companies like Autodesk and Nvidia can't successfully integrate a renderer! Now they saying they have re-engineered the rendering plugin architecture so its easier to integrate why now and not 4 years ago when it was obvious there was problems??

Also what the hell is going on with Turtle and Maya software much of what you can do with Turtle should be reasonably easy functionality to add to Mental Ray, what is the strategy here is Mental Ray truly going to become the main renderer for Maya or are you going to force us to buy turtle for game stuff and suffer with Mental Ray for everything else..

Are we really going to still need to deal with 4-5 different renderers which don't work across all features in Maya??

I think its futile clinging onto hope that the next version is going to be better at this point it just feels like they are stringing us along to get us to keep paying subs..

This rant isn't really having a go at the developers those guys i <3 since they are doing the hard yards its the bloody management that needs to go!

Pale-Face
04-11-2011, 02:34 PM
Are you able to pass on the following feedback re the new interactive split polygon tool.

As you know, currently you can either cut along edges (pretty much like the existing 2011 split polygon tool) except now you get fancy pre-selection highlighting and can click along edges to create more verts (Nothing to great about this.). Or (And this is where things get kinda cool) you can toggle letting you create points on faces.

Once "Constrain to edges" is turned off so you can cut on a face, you lose all your snapping capabilities and creating cuts precisely on corners/centers becomes very messy. So you left to constantly toggle "Constrain to edges" on and off all the time when u want to cut faces. A cumbersome approach.

I'm not really an XSI user BUT having briefly looked at it's poly tools it appears to have a similar tool ("Add edge tool".) that lets you do exactly that: cut along edges and faces while maintaining snapping to corners and points along edges. The xsi tool seems to not let you cut across multiple edges which thankfully maya does.

What I'd love to see in the next hotfix is to allow you cut on faces while retaining the ability to preselection highlight and snap to edge corners and points. WITHOUT the cumbersome need to toggle "constrain to edges" on and off. Essentially mimicking XSI's "Add edge tool".

BoostAbuse
04-11-2011, 04:12 PM
Are you able to pass on the following feedback re the new interactive split polygon tool.


Yup. I've passed this on to one of our devs to read over.

-s

slipknot66
04-11-2011, 04:38 PM
When it comes to Mental Ray its been what 5 years now and things are still pretty messed up, it was clear from very early one there was major issues with the integration and still its not solved which is pretty embarrassing that 2 companies like Autodesk and Nvidia can't successfully integrate a renderer! Now they saying they have re-engineered the rendering plugin architecture so its easier to integrate why now and not 4 years ago when it was obvious there was problems??

Also what the hell is going on with Turtle and Maya software much of what you can do with Turtle should be reasonably easy functionality to add to Mental Ray, what is the strategy here is Mental Ray truly going to become the main renderer for Maya or are you going to force us to buy turtle for game stuff and suffer with Mental Ray for everything else..

Are we really going to still need to deal with 4-5 different renderers which don't work across all features in Maya??

I think its futile clinging onto hope that the next version is going to be better at this point it just feels like they are stringing us along to get us to keep paying subs..

This rant isn't really having a go at the developers those guys i <3 since they are doing the hard yards its the bloody management that needs to go!

Perfect!
Thats exactly what i think about mental ray integration inside Maya.

AlexTamayo
04-11-2011, 11:44 PM
Shawn,

I've been a Maya user for sometime. I do not know if this concerns you, but I remember the time when Maya was as reliable as Mac OSs and every time a new version was released it always had major chances. Now it feels like Windows OSs, every new version is unreliable at launch and some of the old "reliable" features you can't depend on any more, because they're buggy.

I understand Autodesk and Alias are two completely different companies. But I believe there are one or two things Autodesk can learn from companies like Alias and Apple. I know Autodesk needs to make a profit, after all, that's why it is a company, but if they keep making unreliable solutions eventually they're going to alienate their clientèle. Maya needs to be the same reliable software it used to be.

A lot of my acquaintances, including myself, are still working in 2009 mainly, just because it is not nearly a buggy as the newest versions. I believe it is brilliant that you lads are making nice and shiny new features, but I think having a reliable software is more important than that. Hire some people from the Apple Marketing department and stop rushing the software.

Thank you for reading! Cheers! :)

Magnus3D
04-11-2011, 11:51 PM
Shiny white Apple style marketing is not going to make Maya more stable and reliable. Only thing that will resolve that is taking things back to the basics and stabilizing the core and important stuff and not by stacking more layers of shiny Applecake ontop of a unstable cardhouse.

/ Magnus

Buexe
04-12-2011, 12:07 AM
Shawn,

I've been a Maya user for sometime. I do not know if this concerns you, but I remember the time when Maya was as reliable as Mac OSs and every time a new version was released it always had major chances. Now it feels like Windows OSs, every new version is unreliable at launch and some of the old "reliable" features you can't depend on any more, because they're buggy.

I understand Autodesk and Alias are two completely different companies. But I believe there are one or two things Autodesk can learn from companies like Alias and Apple. I know Autodesk needs to make a profit, after all, that's why it is a company, but if they keep making unreliable solutions eventually they're going to alienate their clientèle. Maya needs to be the same reliable software it used to be.

A lot of my acquaintances, including myself, are still working in 2009 mainly, just because it is not nearly a buggy as the newest versions. I believe it is brilliant that you lads are making nice and shiny new features, but I think having a reliable software is more important than that. Hire some people from the Apple Marketing department and stop rushing the software.

Thank you for reading! Cheers! :)

Amen. There are really cool things in 2011 ( call me a humanIK fanboy ) and I am looking forward to 2012 but please dont forget about the bread and butter. Thanks!

Pale-Face
04-12-2011, 12:07 AM
Thanks Boost.

fizzbin
04-12-2011, 01:18 AM
DMM shattering/physics plugin is crippled to 1500 tetrahedra objects. The "full" version of the plugin is $599 USD.

They are updating it to support 2500 live tetrahedra objects, and have dropped the price to $299 for the unlimited tetrahedron version.

You can actually do a lot with even 1500 tets, and certainly a lot more with 2500 if you use the "splinter" geometry with the tets.

Here's a test I did with a relatively simple 2500 tet scene: Asphalt Crack DMM test (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/962150/asphalt-crack-density.mov)

I used density regions to increase the fracture detail in the area of interest. The main thing DMM gets you is the subtle effect of flexing and bending before fracture, rather than just having everything fall apart.

gauranga108
04-12-2011, 01:32 AM
I've playing around with 2012's new feature of retargeting render passes to composite in maya.

I understand how to do color correction etc on my passes in maya but I'm not sure what the value is.

Don't I still need a compositing app to bring in all my passes and redo all my corrections that I did in maya?

Why would I want to do my color correction and compositing twice. once in maya and once in composite app?

Am I missing something?

Can I bring my rendered sequence of iff files back into maya and do color correction and then re-render?

Or do I need to plug in my color correction node into my shader node after I do my test render composite in maya?

Thanks

I'll answer my own post here.

Well I kept going on compositing and I have to say it's a great way to render and composite. I found out you can composite a whole image sequence at one time very quickly.

You need to render out your sequence first same way you have to render out your single frame first then you can add remap HSV nodes for CC etc.

It's great that you don't need a composting app anymore unless you really want one. Maya will rerender all your passes with correction into one sequence via the retarget node with almost no render time.

This saves me having to learn another app and the time of import and exporting into another app and all the hassles that got with it.

I'm wondering is there is any blur nodes in maya?

For example if I don't want to use DOF but manually blur something to fake DOF.

Any node I could use for this?

I'm going to have to learn how to use maya render nodes better now.

fizzbin
04-12-2011, 01:53 AM
lol. :cry: :banghead: no. its awful.

seriously though. I tried maxing out to the allowed tetrahedral count and there is a noticeable slowdown on impact... This is with a single sphere dropping on a passive plane, the tetrahedral count is just under the limit, but i would guess that i would need about 10X to get to a usable amount of detail (for a mid-ground shot) and about 20x for upclose.

now if this was even a half-decently detailed house instead of a sphere... I shudder to think... (just look at the demos on their website, they are all super low res - and I bet I know why).

now to think of it, nice marketing strategy... limit tetrahedral count to hide the fact that it will get slow... sell plugin and then let users crank it to get decent detail and find out that its useless. CHICH CHING.

another thing to note. clearly DMM wasnt written for speed, the fact that the plugin is a python script and takes forever just to load the shelf (adding to maya load time each time you start ) ... for 600 dollars i would expect hardware accelerated shattering and simulation. Funny thing is I had exactly the same impression over a year ago after trying out the demo of their plugin. Its still the same speed... those thinking of upgrading maya to 2012 just for DMM... you might as well just buy the plugin :)

The DMM Plug-In is written in C++, is multithreaded and has been refined for speed over 4 years of heavy use. The Python script only acts as an interface to Maya. The fact is that Finite Element simulation is very time-consuming and this is the first time anyone has put it into an art pipeline in a way that is accessible and controllable by artists. If you look at the original Finite Element demos Dr. James O'Brien did of trays and sculptures breaking, they took well over a day to simulate. There is a lot going on in these simulations. There are something like 14 different parameters which define material properties which simulate the stress within each tetrahedral element. Collision, fracture and deformation need to be calculated among each element of the object.

The demos on the Pixelux site are low resolution, admittedly, but there are quite a few examples of super high-resolution DMM - the trees in Avatar, the entire Samurai scene in Sucker Punch which you can read about in this month's Cinefex. There are many more examples coming in upcoming feature films, so clearly the tech can be used to do amazing things.

The goal of this version is to provide game developers a realistic shatter/fracture solution. Using density regions and 2500 tets, you can get some really good results with that.

fizzbin
04-12-2011, 02:14 AM
Some DMM shot deconstructions and a couple of commercials. The previous comment about making an entire house destructible should be answered here :)

Test shots of wood, plastic and concrete being broken with DMM (http://www.vimeo.com/15276932?ab)
Wood and glass fracture and shatter effect tests (http://www.vimeo.com/14337781)
Neat use of soft DMM backing and hard DMM facing to get impact effect (http://www.vimeo.com/14454190)
Wooden beam being chewed... (http://www.vimeo.com/21192506?ab)
Giant Termites destroying a bunch of DMM houses in a suburb (http://www.vimeo.com/21254693)

These were done with the unlimited version, but you could easily do the first 3 shots with the version that comes with Maya 2012 (the 2500 tet-limited one). The splinters really help add realism to the wood breaking.

DuttyFoot
04-12-2011, 02:45 AM
those examples were pretty cool

lovedebri
04-12-2011, 03:01 AM
I find pretty poor what you say can be done with the DMM "fixed to 2500 tets" demo version, so the current 1500 tets is definetively useles, take a look guys, just at the end of this demo video:

http://www.vimeo.com/15276932?ab

I can see how the clusters of debris bounce very weirdly like a yo-yo, can you see it? is this a bug or what?

fizzbin
04-12-2011, 05:57 AM
I find pretty poor what you say can be done with the DMM "fixed to 2500 tets" demo version, so the current 1500 tets is definetively useles, take a look guys, just at the end of this demo video:

http://www.vimeo.com/15276932?ab

I can see how the clusters of debris bounce very weirdly like a yo-yo, can you see it? is this a bug or what?

These are tests, the debris was anchored with invisible DMM to achieve an effect. Adjustment of scenes in simulation that way is common. As for a 1500 tet limit, you can definitely do serious things with it. Bending and deformation don't necessarily need large numbers of tets to be effective.

The workflow in DMM is to create a low tet object first and then gradually increase the tet density until you get the results you like. Stretching tets can get you anisotropic properties.

The tet limit is being increased to allow people to create higher detail fractures and deformations as well as allowing more complex scenes to be built.

fizzbin
04-12-2011, 07:14 AM
Here's a DMM Killer Whale (http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150124428442119) . Its around 350 tets.

FalseCathedral
04-12-2011, 07:52 AM
Maybe I'm completely missing something, but why is everybody so excited over viewport 2.0? How will it improve our DCC?

With the new Editable Motion Trail, I am completely unable to figure out how to modify the tangents. Once activating them, they are unaffected by my attempts to transform/adjust the tangent. What gives?

I really like the Sync Graph Editor/Timeline with the channel box :buttrock: , but it seems to deselect the curve when I go to edit it in the Graph Editor. :banghead: How could a bug like that go unnoticed?

Cheers!

oglu
04-12-2011, 08:06 AM
the current viewport is totally outdated and not hardware accelerated by modern graphic cards... if viewport 2 is finished you should be see a huge speed improvement in all areas... viewport 2 is able to load much more geometry and texture data at the moment...

for game level design its really cool to see all the textures in one go... in the old viewport i could view that only in wire mode....

FalseCathedral
04-12-2011, 10:19 AM
thanks for the clarification. that's what i thought, but i wasn't quite sure, as the FPS was about half (with all aa, ao, dof off) with VP2 compared with the default when animating a character. Of course, this is with a Geforce GTS 250. I thought there must be something I was missing.

I welcome having DOF and motion blur, but what is the need for the very roughly approximated ambient occlusion? Do you think that eventually VP2.0 will evolve to become more like Mach Studio Pro or the like?

tonytrout
04-12-2011, 11:36 AM
Im a bit disppointed with viewport 2, Im sitting here trying to adjust my skin shader looking at a black model, though to be fair it does have a bit of gloss on it. But its starting to wear off.

ChewyPixels
04-12-2011, 01:56 PM
Maybe it's a stupid question (I don't thing it is) but I really wonder what will be the Autodesk policy about mental ray integration (again, I know... :shrug: ).

Let me explain:

Since some versions (3.8, 3.9), mental image change lot of things in mental ray (mainly sampling but also some others usefull things). So there is now many features wich are not easy to integrate in a nice way (and users use some scripts found on the web...).

I suppose Autodesk is in a bad position between continue to add mental ray features over (and over) the current ui or give full access to mental ray options to the user in a common way (wich is not very "nice" to use).

Maybe Atdsk give time to mental image to put some new features wich "break" (not in a technical way) compatibility (all sampling stuff) before return to the integrations.

Maybe there is others reasons but I think users can be aware of them.

I read somewhere (don't remember where, sry) that mr integration was not a priority for Maya (it was about the fact there where no iRay support in 2012). This is very disturbing to read that because I think this is not true at all (at least more than ao screen support /tackle :D ).

So what can we expect for the futur of mayatomr?

Regard,

Dorian

I had the same feeling about Maya's mr integration. I've since then moved onto V-Ray and I am loving it! Something to think about. :)

BoostAbuse
04-12-2011, 03:02 PM
Shawn,

I've been a Maya user for sometime. I do not know if this concerns you, but I remember the time when Maya was as reliable as Mac OSs and every time a new version was released it always had major chances. Now it feels like Windows OSs, every new version is unreliable at launch and some of the old "reliable" features you can't depend on any more, because they're buggy.

I understand Autodesk and Alias are two completely different companies. But I believe there are one or two things Autodesk can learn from companies like Alias and Apple. I know Autodesk needs to make a profit, after all, that's why it is a company, but if they keep making unreliable solutions eventually they're going to alienate their clientèle. Maya needs to be the same reliable software it used to be.

A lot of my acquaintances, including myself, are still working in 2009 mainly, just because it is not nearly a buggy as the newest versions. I believe it is brilliant that you lads are making nice and shiny new features, but I think having a reliable software is more important than that. Hire some people from the Apple Marketing department and stop rushing the software.

Thank you for reading! Cheers! :)

Alex (and others),

Stability is of course a big concern and something we want to make sure we're not regressing with over the years. I'd be curious to know which features you're eluding to that have become buggy over the years or what areas you're seeing instability in.

2011 had its little gremlins but when you're building an entirely new viewport framework as well as moving the whole UI framework to a new system (and going to Mac64 for the first time) it's expected to be a little bumpy at first. I think now we're starting to see the benefits of those moves and QT certainly feels better to me on the Mac and Viewport 2 is starting to show people why we put the effort there to take advantage of hardware that barely got used before.

At the end of the day it's not always about the shiny new features to us and while it might seem that way from the outside we're definitely focused on squashing bugs and making Maya stable and useful in a production environment.

Maybe I'm completely missing something, but why is everybody so excited over viewport 2.0? How will it improve our DCC?

The performance improvement alone with scenes should be enough for most people. For those comparing to the old Viewport if you're using the FPS HUD as a means of gauging performance it's lying to you. Take that number and divide it in half for an accurate measurement of performance (if you'd like I can post a dg timer script that will measure performance properly).

In 2012 you now have proper CgFX support that has been cleaned up immensely and now draws properly. You have accurate normal maps in the viewport which is something that neither the old viewport or High Quality viewport ever drew properly. On top of these things you've now got shadows (good looking and accurate), AO, DOF, MSAA etc for beauty effects and Vertex Animation Caching to speed up the evaluation of deforming characters (there's a few caveats I can go into detail about).

With the new Editable Motion Trail, I am completely unable to figure out how to modify the tangents. Once activating them, they are unaffected by my attempts to transform/adjust the tangent. What gives?

What type of keys are you using? If you enable the Tangents and then grab the handle and use the Translate tool it should let you adjust the tangents just fine in the Viewport.

Thanks again to all of the people providing the feedback here. As I've said before if you have other issues, concerns or things you want to communicate feel free to PM me here as well.

-s

Kabab
04-12-2011, 03:29 PM
Alex (and others),
2011 had its little gremlins but when you're building an entirely new viewport framework as well as moving the whole UI framework to a new system (and going to Mac64 for the first time) it's expected to be a little bumpy at first. -s

You see this is the crux of the issue as customers we expect functioning tools it's not really our problem that you have decided to implement a new UI or go 64bit why should we carry the burden?

The features should completely work or not be released until they do so but since we are locked into this brutal 12 release cycle and I'm sure the marketing people are crying murder to get bells and whilsts to pimp we ended up with software that looks awesome on paper and not so good in realilty.

Can you imagine buying a 2011 Camry which you can't drive and Toyota telling you to bad we are still figuring out the engine we put in this model?

KidderD
04-12-2011, 03:43 PM
You see this is the crux of the issue as customers we expect functioning tools it's not really our problem that you have decided to implement a new UI or go 64bit why should we carry the burden?

The features should completely work or not be released until they do so but since we are locked into this brutal 12 release cycle and I'm sure the marketing people are crying murder to get bells and whilsts to pimp we ended up with software that looks awesome on paper and not so good in realilty.

Can you imagine buying a 2011 Camry which you can't drive and Toyota telling you to bad we are still figuring out the engine we put in this model?

If you were buying a camry with a new hybrid engine, would you expect to pay more?

Maybe it's just cause its morning or whatever. But I hate these stupid car analogies. I mean you can't compare the profit margin or cars, and margin of research and development of cars with the profit margin and r&d of software.

SheepFactory
04-12-2011, 03:48 PM
Maybe I'm completely missing something, but why is everybody so excited over viewport 2.0? How will it improve our DCC?


Seriously?

BoostAbuse
04-12-2011, 04:15 PM
You see this is the crux of the issue as customers we expect functioning tools it's not really our problem that you have decided to implement a new UI or go 64bit why should we carry the burden?

The features should completely work or not be released until they do so but since we are locked into this brutal 12 release cycle and I'm sure the marketing people are crying murder to get bells and whilsts to pimp we ended up with software that looks awesome on paper and not so good in realilty.

Can you imagine buying a 2011 Camry which you can't drive and Toyota telling you to bad we are still figuring out the engine we put in this model?

You're right it's not your problem but did we ever say it was? Any app that has ever undergone a major overhaul has had bugs - lets face it no large code base is ever safe from bugs and everyone has ship dates to meet come hell or high water.

Funny you use the Toyota model when they released cars that had gas pedals which stuck causing multiple accidents. They knew about it, even attempted to dodge a fix and then eventually performed the recall. Case in point that no product is ever perfect and sometimes you have to do triage after the fact. I could come up with tons more examples to provide as reference to my point that bugs do happen and we're working at trying to squash them better and faster.

Narann
04-12-2011, 05:05 PM
Restart the UI/OpenGL was definitly a good thing, (even if peoples said the inverse and even if I really don't care about "wow" effect of glow/dof/mb/ao etc...).

I think people can understand a lot of new bugs appear when a great improvements are dones because they will benefit of the improvement in the futur. I can.

But when some commons manipulations working perfectly before (Maya 2011) and segfault Maya 2012. I can understand users feel worried. (Create a node in the hypershade...).

Maya price is not insignificant and it's hard to tell to your boss why we need to paid for a new version instead of wait two or three versions and bye again.

Short dev cycle (one release by year) is a good thing if users can ask for what they want and maybe, wait more time to see real improvements. With the Atdsk big house this is unfornatly impossible. You need to wait and cross your fingers that Maya n+1 will add thing you need. Is there a roadmap for Maya? :)

Is there a reason why "bugs" (not really bugs but heavy things) ask from the begening of Maya 2011 are not "corrected"? Like the load of the Render Settings, the Hypershade, etc?

CgFX support that has been cleaned up immensely and now draws properly

Very interesting! o_O didn't see this in the release note: http://www.autodesk.com/maya-readme-2012-enu

The only thing I've found was a bug fix:

381128 - Attribute Editor slow to update when selecting camera in scene with CgFX

Is there an other release note wich talk about some features?

I'd just read this in the doc:

Maya supports Cg version 3.0.015.

Old one (2011) was 1.5 so it's a good thing, (I will try some CgFX shaders). But I didn't see anything about that. Is there others cools new things like that? ^^

Kerem
04-12-2011, 07:04 PM
I think I'll stick with Maya 2011 this time. :rolleyes: And is it me or Maya 2011 is working a bit slow other then dark interface :surprised

Buexe
04-12-2011, 07:22 PM
(there's a few caveats I can go into detail about).

I would love to hear more about that, please.

Kabab
04-13-2011, 12:24 AM
You're right it's not your problem but did we ever say it was? Any app that has ever undergone a major overhaul has had bugs - lets face it no large code base is ever safe from bugs and everyone has ship dates to meet come hell or high water.
But your making it our problem when you guys release software with these problems, I accept there is always going to be bugs but they should be obscure corner case issues not massive show stopping bugs. How is it that normal users can find these issues within a day of a release but Autodesk Q&A can't?

Funny you use the Toyota model when they released cars that had gas pedals which stuck causing multiple accidents. They knew about it, even attempted to dodge a fix and then eventually performed the recall. Case in point that no product is ever perfect and sometimes you have to do triage after the fact. I could come up with tons more examples to provide as reference to my point that bugs do happen and we're working at trying to squash them better and faster.
If Maya had as many issues as Toyota cars did then Maya users would be a very happy bunch of people :)

PerryDS
04-13-2011, 12:51 AM
Funny you use the Toyota model when they released cars that had gas pedals which stuck causing multiple accidents. They knew about it, even attempted to dodge a fix and then eventually performed the recall.

I believe that case was just recently thrown out of court, and it was proven that Toyota was not in the wrong. The driver was using a floor mat that wasn't appropriate for the vehicle. Just thought I should mention that.

Bitter
04-13-2011, 01:54 AM
Maybe it's a stupid question (I don't thing it is) but I really wonder what will be the Autodesk policy about mental ray integration (again, I know... ). Let me explain: Since some versions (3.8, 3.9), mental image change lot of things in mental ray (mainly sampling but also some others usefull things). So there is now many features wich are not easy to integrate in a nice way (and users use some scripts found on the web...). I suppose Autodesk is in a bad position between continue to add mental ray features over (and over) the current ui or give full access to mental ray options to the user in a common way (wich is not very "nice" to use). Maybe Atdsk give time to mental image to put some new features wich "break" (not in a technical way) compatibility (all sampling stuff) before return to the integrations. Maybe there is others reasons but I think users can be aware of them. I read somewhere (don't remember where, sry) that mr integration was not a priority for Maya (it was about the fact there where no iRay support in 2012). This is very disturbing to read that because I think this is not true at all (at least more than ao screen support /tackle ). So what can we expect for the futur of mayatomr?

This has been a pretty constant topic lately with those of us using mental ray inside Maya. In fact, the topic isn't lost on mental images in the slightest:

mental images Product Manager Steffen (Steve) (http://forum.mentalimages.com/showpost.php?p=32500&postcount=5)

If you look at the entire thread you will notice (and understand) that this process may take some time. Probably a year or so. I've waited this long and don't care to much longer. However, changing an entire pipeline is costly and time consuming to begin with. If I were a single freelancer I may have moved on by now.

AD seems to rely on the fact that their largest customers are very slow movers (Lockheed, Boeing, etc) These customers have files from 10+ years ago that still need to work. (And yes they use Maya.)

VFX is (hard to imagine) a smaller business than that. And AD owns their own competition. So there's not a lot of reason to be pressured into doing things better. If you use Vray, Renderman or whatever, you still buy their product. There seems to be an odd disconnect that mental ray isn't part of that overall product. It's an experience that they should look at as a whole product and not seemingly dismiss it.

Their integration detracts from the whole package.

BoostAbuse
04-13-2011, 02:08 AM
But your making it our problem when you guys release software with these problems, I accept there is always going to be bugs but they should be obscure corner case issues not massive show stopping bugs. How is it that normal users can find these issues within a day of a release but Autodesk Q&A can't?

I think we may have a completely different view of show stopping here. I've seen very few bugs come through my inbox flagged as a complete show stopping bug and any we catch during dev are squashed as top priority. If it impedes workflow or prevents the user from using that feature it's definitely a problem.

If you've got a list of showstoppers present in 2012 I'll take them right now and kick off an email ring with the dev team :)


If Maya had as many issues as Toyota cars did then Maya users would be a very happy bunch of people :)

Who says they aren't? Obviously the thing you'll find most common on public forums is complaints or problems because these are the places people go to vent or ask questions about problems they are having. I don't doubt we've got some unhappy users but I see a lot of happy users on a daily basis as well.

sacslacker
04-13-2011, 02:31 AM
Well I'd have to add some happy user comments here. The new fluid meshing stuff is gold. It seems much faster. Viewport 2.0 is very usable and clearly a big upgrade. Being able to hardware render with these features is going to be a great perk for early previz with clients. I'm VERY happy with it especially when you mix in all the substance materials. It looks pretty darn good.

Anyway, there are a few bugs and of course the Mental Ray integration is fairly bleh but there's a lot to be happy about in this release. At least for me anyway. Your mileage may vary.

BoostAbuse
04-13-2011, 02:45 AM
I would love to hear more about that, please.

So the gist of it is anything that will flag the dependency graph dirty post deformation is going to kick you off the GPU and back to the DG. So for a character example lets say you've got a skinned character and there is a smooth node added after the skinning. At every frame Maya is going to eval that node and thus call a topology change in the DG which will flag the caching invalid.

So a few things to watch out for when using vertex animation caching:

- try not to have any downstream history after the skinning if possible.
- user normals will cause a topology change with skinning when the Deform User Normals is flagged (this is on by default) because Maya evals the user normals at every frame.
- super dense meshes will fill up the GPU memory buffer very fast so if you see high fluctuations in your framerate you could be reaching the limits of your card.

Once the cache is generated (usually takes 1-2 spins through the timeline) we disable evaluation of the DG and start streaming directly off the card so on good hardware you'll see some pretty nice performance gains. There's also a few commands I can toss your way to help catch when you might be reaching the limits of your card or system (i.e. system memory and GPU memory stat readers to tell you how much VP2 is using).

I should probably do a Vimeo video or something showing vertex animation cache doing it's thing when I get back to the office later this week. Would that help maybe doing a setup video and showing the effect topology changes have on the performance?

-s

Kabab
04-13-2011, 02:51 AM
I think we may have a completely different view of show stopping here. I've seen very few bugs come through my inbox flagged as a complete show stopping bug and any we catch during dev are squashed as top priority. If it impedes workflow or prevents the user from using that feature it's definitely a problem.

If you've got a list of showstoppers present in 2012 I'll take them right now and kick off an email ring with the dev team :)

Maybe we do personally these days I expect software to be pretty much flawless I can accept some obscure bugs here and there but i don't think there is any excuse any more to ship/sell software that crashes or shipping major with features which don't work 100% for example viewport 2..

For example how did this get through Q&A?

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=87&t=971499&page=1&pp=15

Who says they aren't? Obviously the thing you'll find most common on public forums is complaints or problems because these are the places people go to vent or ask questions about problems they are having. I don't doubt we've got some unhappy users but I see a lot of happy users on a daily basis as well.

Well its hard to say really, of course a portion of customers will be happy if they weren't they wouldn't have purchased the software to begin with but if you just survey current customers your missing out on all the people who didn't purchase the software or stopped upgrading many moons ago because they weren't happy and perhaps these people are more important because they represent a potential to grow the customer base.

Just out of curiosity I dunno if your even allowed to say this but what has the new seat of growth of Maya been like over the last 4 years?

BoostAbuse
04-13-2011, 03:06 AM
Maybe we do personally these days I expect software to be pretty much flawless I can accept some obscure bugs here and there but i don't think there is any excuse any more to ship/sell software that crashes or shipping major with features which don't work 100% for example viewport 2..

For example how did this get through Q&A?

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=87&t=971499&page=1&pp=15


Try pinging MR on that one? If it's showing up in all products then I'd take it up with MR.

We explained from the get go what Viewport 2.0 was capable of in 2011 and were upfront about what was supported. We told people it would be superb for environments and large static scenes which it was so it's not like we hid anything or said it was "complete".

What other software do you use that's "flawless" might I ask?


Well its hard to say really, of course a portion of customers will be happy if they weren't they wouldn't have purchased the software to begin with but if you just survey current customers your missing out on all the people who didn't purchase the software or stopped upgrading many moons ago because they weren't happy and perhaps these people are more important because they represent a potential to grow the customer base.

Just out of curiosity I dunno if your even allowed to say this but what has the new seat of growth of Maya been like over the last 4 years?

I'm not so sure the lack of upgrading is about being happy so much as it is about studio pipelines and just how hard it is to move all custom tools, plug-ins and everything to a new release. Having worked in large film shops it's no small feat so by the time everything gets rolled over you're usually behind at least a release or two. As for the smaller individual users that's a good question about whether they are happy or not which is why I tend to frequent here and see. I've got a few freelance friends but most of my interaction is with small shops right up to the big film & games customers so I don't get the chance to sit down with the single user very often to pick their brains.

You know I'm not allowed to answer that last question :)

-s

Kabab
04-13-2011, 03:23 AM
Try pinging MR on that one? If it's showing up in all products then I'd take it up with MR.
Just remember we are purchasing the software from Autodesk so the onus of responsibility is on Autodesk.

We explained from the get go what Viewport 2.0 was capable of in 2011 and were upfront about what was supported. We told people it would be superb for environments and large static scenes which it was so it's not like we hid anything or said it was "complete".

What other software do you use that's "flawless" might I ask?
I can accept what your saying about the 2011 release but there still seems to be issues with 2012...

Photoshop I consider pretty much flawless I can't even remember it crashing once. Is it wrong for me as a consumer to demand flawless products if we don't ask for it no one is ever going to strive for it and good enough attitude will continue.

-edit I must admit i was pretty dam impressed with Showcase to that was pretty dam stable from the get go..

I'm not so sure the lack of upgrading is about being happy so much as it is about studio pipelines and just how hard it is to move all custom tools, plug-ins and everything to a new release. Having worked in large film shops it's no small feat so by the time everything gets rolled over you're usually behind at least a release or two. As for the smaller individual users that's a good question about whether they are happy or not which is why I tend to frequent here and see. I've got a few freelance friends but most of my interaction is with small shops right up to the big film & games customers so I don't get the chance to sit down with the single user very often to pick their brains.

Of course big pipelines is far more complex of an issue.. From personal experience with out little 2 man operation we decided to stay on 2010 for now and instead of getting a 2nd seat of Maya we bought another product (non adsk) of course this is anecdotal and we will probably be forced at some stage to get another Maya license simply because its what everyone else uses but its not a by choice purchase.

You know I'm not allowed to answer that last question :)-s

Hrmm maybe i should buy some shares and ask the question in the next earnings review :cool:

cmogk
04-13-2011, 03:32 AM
Instead of 1 uniform dynamics solution we have;
Ncloth
Nparticles
Old particles
Old RBD
Fluids
Physx
DMM
Craft

So instead of one uniformed Nucleus based system we have a handful of disparate systems, particularly the last 3 systems I listed, the functionality here should really covered by one Nrigids system which works with Ncloth and Nparticles..

I would interpret this differently.

nCloth and nParticles are on nucleus. Maya 2012 introduces the rigid shells to nucleus so you can do some rigid body things. Plus there is the multi-threading that was introduced to nucleus in 2012 and improvements to nCloth and nParticles. In other words, there's still lots going on in nucleus and it's getting more capable.

PhysX and DMM come from a Real-Time/Games/middleware background as a big differentiator - nucleus is not available as games middleware.

Cory

cmogk
04-13-2011, 03:37 AM
For those seeing issues with stability, please log a bug and/or send in the CER (fill in the Customer Error Report dialog and press the send button). This is not our only measure of stability but the current numbers are low which suggest 2012 is relatively good or you're not getting the info into us.

Cory

cmogk
04-13-2011, 03:41 AM
Also what the hell is going on with Turtle and Maya software much of what you can do with Turtle should be reasonably easy functionality to add to Mental Ray, what is the strategy here is Mental Ray truly going to become the main renderer for Maya or are you going to force us to buy turtle for game stuff and suffer with Mental Ray for everything else..


Turtle made it's name in baking for Games over a number of years so "reasonably easy" may be a relative term.

Cory

FalseCathedral
04-13-2011, 03:43 AM
Seriously?

C'mon, man...don't be like that.

But to answer your question, yes, seriously. Lets go through this. I don't deal with super high resolution assets, so when I was testing VP2, I tested it with a skinned character that plays back fairly slow to begin with (about 18fps). The default viewport was over 2x faster than viewport 2.0. (8fps)..regardless of the Vertex Animation cache settings. (and with all the eye candy off). Even if the FPS is not being displayed accurately, it is plainly obvious that VP2 is running much slower in this instance. I assumed that even though i'm running an older slower GF GTS250, vp2 would at least be faster for this, as it is supposed to be utilizing the hardware more. I am also not sure about the usefulness of the SSAO. I'm not complaining of this feature, I welcome it and hope that eventually the viewport is able to have all the bells and whistles that are available in hardware. I for one, welcome our hardware rendering overlord. :bowdown:

FalseCathedral
04-13-2011, 04:22 AM
What type of keys are you using? If you enable the Tangents and then grab the handle and use the Translate tool it should let you adjust the tangents just fine in the Viewport.



Create new scene, create object, translate, hit S, translate, hit s. open graph editor, enable weighted tangents. create editable motion curve, enable in/out tangents, select manipulator, attempt to adjust tangent...nothing happens. it's as if it is locked. once i click on the tangent manipulator to translate it, the translate manipulator loses the arrows and refuses to translate. the cg supervisor was also has this problem on his system. are we missing a simple step?

Kabab
04-13-2011, 04:25 AM
I would interpret this differently.

nCloth and nParticles are on nucleus. Maya 2012 introduces the rigid shells to nucleus so you can do some rigid body things. Plus there is the multi-threading that was introduced to nucleus in 2012 and improvements to nCloth and nParticles. In other words, there's still lots going on in nucleus and it's getting more capable.

PhysX and DMM come from a Real-Time/Games/middleware background as a big differentiator - nucleus is not available as games middleware.

Cory

It just seems redundant to me, this all seems like an attempt to stop Maya become more marginalized in games pipelines.. Since game engines have become to so capable these days all you really need from your DCC is good modelling, texturing and animation even some of the animation stuff is moving more towards the engine side of things..

Turtle made it's name in baking for Games over a number of years so "reasonably easy" may be a relative term.

How many millions of $$$ did it cost to acquire? Surely if that money was directed to MR integration and extending the features to match turtle wouldn't that be far more beneficial for all maya users?

Its not particularly feasible to do the bulk of your baking inside of a DCC app anyway since you typically populate your worlds in the engine.

The whole turtle thing to me looks like a quick and dirty way for Adsk to get their claws stuck into Unity/UDK and turtle for Maya was just a added bonus...

Sorry if these seems like an attack/rant its just frustrating to me the direction Maya is going back in the toddler years everything just seemed to much more uniformed now days its starting to feel like mash up of a million things.

BoostAbuse
04-13-2011, 04:29 AM
Create new scene, create object, translate, hit S, translate, hit s. open graph editor, enable weighted tangents. create editable motion curve, enable in/out tangents, select manipulator, attempt to adjust tangent...nothing happens. it's as if it is locked. once i click on the tangent manipulator to translate it, the translate manipulator loses the arrows and refuses to translate. the cg supervisor was also has this problem on his system. are we missing a simple step?

That doesn't seem right - I just created a sphere, keyed it at 1, keyed it at 24 and enabled the motion trail, turned on In Tangent and then grabbed the tangent and moved it to see the curve update properly. Totally new prefs and I just installed 2012 off the sub center today on my windows partition.

What keys are being set by default in your prefs? 2012 should default to Auto tangent type. What mode is the translate tool in? It should work in everything but Normal mode.

Bitter
04-13-2011, 05:00 AM
Try pinging MR on that one? If it's showing up in all products then I'd take it up with MR.

@BoostAbuse

This is what I'm talking about. mental images cannot provide support to anyone but direct customers. Direct customers have a site license.

AUTODESK is in charge of providing support to Maya users without a sufficient number of Standalone licenses. This is the contract. mental images hands are tied and AD won't provide support. So users have no recourse BUT to seek support from the integrator, that would be Autodesk. (Can you hear me yelling?)

Your GM Delco radio breaks, you take it to the dealer, not Delco. That's the deal in place with Autodesk.

The post listed is actually not even a bug.

Please consult with AD higher-ups and allow mental images to generate their own integration. :banghead:

Just to point out a flaw here: say we did get mental images to fix a bug. How exactly is mental images supposed to cram that back into Maya without the plug-in? THAT'S why support for this goes through Autodesk. Autodesk owns mayatomr, not mental images.

There, I feel slightly better having vented some. . .

fizzbin
04-13-2011, 05:52 AM
Have you actually tried it? No i dont think you can make anything beautiful out of 1 polygon. And even 500 polygons you would be extremely... err. abstract. I would have to strongly disagree with you - with 1500 tetrahedrals you will not make anything short of previs.

Even with 150,000 tetrahedrals you would be SEVERELY limited. Of course you can judge for yourself, just go to their website pixelux.com and take a look at their demos. Would you consider any of those beautiful?

yes I agree, its a dirty dirty marketing trick to say that maya now comes with DMM. no it doesnt. it comes with a crippled, useless demo (which to me is an attempt to hide its performance with decent detail ) that just makes me want to never buy anything from pixelux.

Have you tried using DMM at all?

The version of DMM that comes with Maya 2012 is completely useful for DMM game object authoring where the tet limit per object is between 150 and 300 tets. The limit will be increased to 2500 tets, which is more than ample for creating in-game animations.

As for simulating with 150,000 tets, running something with that level of simulation produces extremely realistic animation. Using DMM depends on the way you configure the geometry, how you add splinters and what you are trying to achieve.

Quite a few studios have used DMM for some amazing work and have produced some beautiful results. LucasArts, WETA, MPC and Stargate have all used DMM on games, feature films and TV projects (respectively) and have been very happy. You can read about MPC's use of DMM in this month's Cinefex 125.

My other post has pointers to DMM scene deconstructions as well as some completed movies. Hopefully, you will find those interesting.

Narann
04-13-2011, 10:28 AM
@Bitter
Thanks for informations clarifying the situation and the MR futur. I will read the post closely. :)


This is what I'm talking about. mental images cannot provide support to anyone but direct customers. Direct customers have a site license.

AUTODESK is in charge of providing support to Maya users without a sufficient number of Standalone licenses. This is the contract. mental images hands are tied and AD won't provide support. So users have no recourse BUT to seek support from the integrator, that would be Autodesk. (Can you hear me yelling?)

Your GM Delco radio breaks, you take it to the dealer, not Delco. That's the deal in place with Autodesk.

The post listed is actually not even a bug.

Please consult with AD higher-ups and allow mental images to generate their own integration. :banghead:

Just to point out a flaw here: say we did get mental images to fix a bug. How exactly is mental images supposed to cram that back into Maya without the plug-in? THAT'S why support for this goes through Autodesk. Autodesk owns mayatomr, not mental images.

There, I feel slightly better having vented some. . .

I'm completely agree with you! mayatomr should now be to supported by mental image. To make they own, integration. Think by them and they users...

I'm sur if mental image would have the opportunity, they would make a good integration more like Vray for Maya have (technically consistent) than current one...

MR is a very good renderer but it is unbearable to have to tinker with his integration to enjoy specials options... each new version... :sad:

JaredTaylor
04-13-2011, 10:32 AM
I'm assuming render passes still aren't integrated properly? So what's this nonsense with node based render passes, does it improve the system at all?

dagon1978
04-13-2011, 10:59 AM
Try pinging MR on that one? If it's showing up in all products then I'd take it up with MR.

-s

hopefully the one above doesn´t seems to be a mray bug... but this kind of answers freak me out
so we have to betatest your software and report your problem to another company, which doesn´t do the integration anymore since years?
what about doing proper betatest of mray4maya??

DutchDimension
04-13-2011, 11:06 AM
That doesn't seem right - I just created a sphere, keyed it at 1, keyed it at 24 and enabled the motion trail, turned on In Tangent and then grabbed the tangent and moved it to see the curve update properly. Totally new prefs and I just installed 2012 off the sub center today on my windows partition.

What keys are being set by default in your prefs? 2012 should default to Auto tangent type. What mode is the translate tool in? It should work in everything but Normal mode.


Works fine here too. No problems. Followed the exact procedure as outlined by FalseCathedral. :shrug:

mustique
04-13-2011, 02:24 PM
It just seems redundant to me, this all seems like an attempt to stop Maya become more marginalized in games pipelines.. Since game engines have become to so capable these days all you really need from your DCC is good modelling, texturing and animation even some of the animation stuff is moving more towards the engine side of things...

That's a scary thing IMHO for maya as well as other conventional 3D apps. Even modelling and texturing is slipping away with apps like Zbrush / topogun / mudbox / mari. ADSK is surely feeling the pressure and tries to appeal more to game devs to contintue to sell seats.

Now if game engines begin to appeal to film studios...
Well that would be the last nail in the coffin. :wip:

AlexTamayo
04-14-2011, 03:29 AM
What other software do you use that's "flawless" might I ask?


Great question! It is good that you asked that. I think Kabab never actually used the term "flawless". I believe a more appropriate term would be "reliable". Here's a short list of the top of my head:

Alias Maya
Adode Photoshop
Pixologic Zbrush
Adobe Ilustrator
Adobe After Effects
Apple Finalcut
The Foundry Nuke
Corel Painter
XSI SoftImage (before AD bought it, haven't use it since.)
Blender
The list goes on and on.

Even Windows Paint is a more reliable software, it does what it is suppose to do, and it recently went through a major change of UI and other things.

This is not a personal attack against you, I really admire and respect your work as a programmer, my problem is with your managing company. All those software I mentioned aren't flawless, but they are very reliable. I also understand that you work for Autodesk, and you're some how oblige to defend the product regardless of every thing, so I know there are some things you can't tell us.

Maya stop being reliable for me some time ago. I'm not complaining for the sake of complaining, I've never complain about Maya before the 2009 edition. I remember the only silly thing that bothered me from 2009 is that now I could move the vertices in my scene from the UV Editor if I middle mouse moved the UVs. It was very annoying to find that you have accidentally move the vertices in your scene from the UV Editor after one hour of work. I honestly don't understand why AD added that, I can't see the benefit, but it is still a silly thing.

With the newest version, I wish it was just that. Maya 2011, for the time I tested it, crashed on me in average every 15mins. How can I rely on a software that does that?

I constantly get errors that I've never seen before. I don't know if this is in a paper that I did not read, but when I'm using the Paint Skin Weight Tool when I paint 'add' on something it doesn't subtract from the other joint, so I can have 2 joints controlling a vertex a 100% Again, I don't know if this is an added feature, but it is very hard to handle and control.

There are a massive number of other examples I can give you, but I think a lot of the lads here have mentioned most of them.



-Alex

FalseCathedral
04-14-2011, 03:31 AM
Works fine here too. No problems. Followed the exact procedure as outlined by FalseCathedral. :shrug:

Man, I can't figure this out. after resetting all the preferences, i'm still getting funky results. setting two keys, adding motion trail, and then enabling show tangents, the tangents don't show up where they should - they are positioned directly over the keyframe. if i open the graph editor and make a small change to the tangent in there, the tangent shows up in the correct spot in 3d...however, i still can not manipulate it. :banghead: editable motion trails was the feature i was looking forward to the most...

cmogk
04-14-2011, 04:50 AM
Sorry if these seems like an attack/rant its just frustrating to me the direction Maya is going back in the toddler years everything just seemed to much more uniformed now days its starting to feel like mash up of a million things.

I get that you're frustrated but it's not exactly clear to me why or about what.

I was at Alias|Wavefront while Maya was still in the womb and I would say the vision is pretty much the same. Yes, there have been changes in things like the management and the industry over the years - that's inevitable. Today, Autodesk is investing in Maya - things like unifying the UI toolkit across platforms and developing a modern viewport require a commitment and belief in what the product offers. I wish we could do every feature that people ask for but we can't.

I don't know if this helps but please keep the feedback coming.

Cory

cmogk
04-14-2011, 04:59 AM
With the newest version, I wish it was just that. Maya 2011, for the time I tested it, crashed on me in average every 15mins. How can I rely on a software that does that?


If you can reproduce the crashes and send in the CER with some kind of identifier (like your name) we will look in the database and see what is going on.

Cory

BoostAbuse
04-14-2011, 05:33 AM
Great question! It is good that you asked that. I think Kabab never actually used the term "flawless". I believe a more appropriate term would be "reliable". Here's a short list of the top of my head:

Alias Maya
Adode Photoshop
Pixologic Zbrush
Adobe Ilustrator
Adobe After Effects
Apple Finalcut
The Foundry Nuke
Corel Painter
XSI SoftImage (before AD bought it, haven't use it since.)
Blender
The list goes on and on.



That's a good list and yeah many of those are stable products but I have to disagree on Alias Maya. It's not like since Autodesk acquired Maya the code base slipped - I get the sense at times that some people just don't like the big corporation and they wind up projecting that onto the products instead. Having used Maya in production from v1.0 right through to Maya 2008 before joining Autodesk I've seen my fair share of buggy features and crashes back in the Alias days.


Even Windows Paint is a more reliable software, it does what it is suppose to do, and it recently went through a major change of UI and other things.

Kind of an apples or oranges comparison no? The comparison is sort of like saying Notepad is more stable than Visual Studio is but the reality is I'm not going to write C++ code in Notepad.


This is not a personal attack against you, I really admire and respect your work as a programmer, my problem is with your managing company. All those software I mentioned aren't flawless, but they are very reliable. I also understand that you work for Autodesk, and you're some how oblige to defend the product regardless of every thing, so I know there are some things you can't tell us.

Like I said earlier - if we start projecting our problems with the managing company onto the product it starts to skew things a bit. If you're unhappy with Autodesk I'm curious to know what's bugging you or making you feel that way. I'm not really "obliged" to defend the product - as a designer it's a good thing to be able to admit something is wrong or your design is flawed because it helps you learn and grow to build better designs in the future.


Maya stop being reliable for me some time ago. I'm not complaining for the sake of complaining, I've never complain about Maya before the 2009 edition. I remember the only silly thing that bothered me from 2009 is that now I could move the vertices in my scene from the UV Editor if I middle mouse moved the UVs. It was very annoying to find that you have accidentally move the vertices in your scene from the UV Editor after one hour of work. I honestly don't understand why AD added that, I can't see the benefit, but it is still a silly thing.

With the newest version, I wish it was just that. Maya 2011, for the time I tested it, crashed on me in average every 15mins. How can I rely on a software that does that?

I constantly get errors that I've never seen before. I don't know if this is in a paper that I did not read, but when I'm using the Paint Skin Weight Tool when I paint 'add' on something it doesn't subtract from the other joint, so I can have 2 joints controlling a vertex a 100% Again, I don't know if this is an added feature, but it is very hard to handle and control.


While it's unfortunate to hear that your experience using Maya has slipped further and further with regards to reliability I wonder if SP1 provided any relief to certain areas for 2011 or if the 2012 trial has shown any improvements for you. If we start to see a lot of instability then I'd like to start finding out where and see if we can triage the situation and find out just what's going on.

With regards to the Paint Skin Weights tool this is because you have bound the mesh using the Post normalization. This was introduced in 2011 and was set as the new default in an attempt to get people to use it going forward. If you open your Smooth Skin options and set the normalization to Interactive or go to the skinCluster of your mesh and set it to Interactive there you will get the old behaviour from before Maya 2011.

Again I appreciate you taking the time to provide this feedback and don't think that we're taking this personally or offense to it as we're not. Providing solid feedback and information on what's not working for you will help us identify more issues or potential areas people see the product slipping and allow us to work at correcting them.

-s

Kabab
04-14-2011, 05:44 AM
I get that you're frustrated but it's not exactly clear to me why or about what.
Cory

Okay let me give you some examples.

We can all agree that the Mental Ray and Maya marriage has its problems it has slowly gotten better since it was first introduced but its safe to say most people are not really that satisfied.. It absolutely bewilders me that when there is an issue like this that has been floating around for years Autodesk goes off and acquires 2 rendering technologies (Turtle and Opticore) spending god knows how much yet here we are stuck with the same old issues.

Then you have issues liked neglected features there are some pretty cool features that have been in Maya since day 1 but they have been pretty much ignored.. Take for example Paintfx and Artisan both landmark features in their day yet 10 years latter we still can't render Paintfx natively with MR and Artisan has seen pretty much no improvement.. Why should we have to get Mudbox? There is no reason why Artisan shouldn't be a capable texturing and sculpting tool.

90% done new features is another problem I have, so new version comes around and we get some nice new features but much of the time they just miss the mark because some really simple and useful things are not implemented.

For example take the animation sequencer that came out in 2011 really nice tool but what if you actually wanted to render the sequence you created not possible unless of course you script it took another 1 year of waiting and $1xxx in subs to make that possible.

There is also I feel a big disconnect between what is portrayed in the Marketing and what is delivered in reality.

Lets look at this DMM plugin that was introduced from all the marketing material we all initially saw it was portrayed and a fully fledged destruction toolkit so to speak when in reality its a partial version which you need to pay for an upgrade to get full functionality (fyi i'm pretty sure this kind of thing is illegal in Australia might want to get some disclosures).

Viewport 2 is another big feature that was marketed, the actual feature itself is a great move in the right direction! But the way its marketed is as if it's fully polished feature and a major selling point... If your going to put something forward like this it should be so good that you can confidently ship the product with just viewport 2 and ditch the old one otherwise call it a technology preview or something.

Then there is the whole Autodesk corporate policies etc but that is not in your hands.

I hope this clears up something things :)

cmogk
04-14-2011, 02:35 PM
@BoostAbuse

This is what I'm talking about. mental images cannot provide support to anyone but direct customers. Direct customers have a site license.

AUTODESK is in charge of providing support to Maya users without a sufficient number of Standalone licenses. This is the contract. mental images hands are tied and AD won't provide support. So users have no recourse BUT to seek support from the integrator, that would be Autodesk. (Can you hear me yelling?)

I didn't realize you had a copy of the contract. Maybe you can help me with some of the legalese in the future ;)

What BoostAbuse was getting at it that the relationship is not that simple (as illustrated by the fact that mental images has discussions about the Maya integration and has direct relationships with some Maya customers.

In a strict sense, Autodesk is a customer of mental images. Just like you guys here, we don't get every feature we ask for as mental images needs to balance this with their other business requirements.

(You may say something like "but wait, feature X is there in mental ray, just turn it on." We may require a little something else to turn feature X - we're not intentionally holding anything back.)

That said, I like to think of it more as a partnership and we've both said we hear you requesting to make things better.

Cory

dagon1978
04-14-2011, 04:04 PM
In a strict sense, Autodesk is a customer of mental images. Just like you guys here, we don't get every feature we ask for as mental images needs to balance this with their other business requirements.

Cory

do you really have any feature requirements for mray?? it´s a couple of year adsk dont want to integrate any new mray feature in maya
i wonder if you still have some mayatomr developer... and if yes, can i ask you what they´re doing?

thanx

cmogk
04-14-2011, 04:57 PM
Okay let me give you some examples.

We can all agree that the Mental Ray and Maya marriage has its problems it has slowly gotten better since it was first introduced but its safe to say most people are not really that satisfied.. It absolutely bewilders me that when there is an issue like this that has been floating around for years Autodesk goes off and acquires 2 rendering technologies (Turtle and Opticore) spending god knows how much yet here we are stuck with the same old issues.

OK, I can see where you're coming from. Autodesk has different business units. If they can work together, great. If not, they don't have to; different customers and markets have different requirements. I think if you read the press releases about these acquisitions you can see the rationale behind them. Opticore is interesting to Maya but we don't have any plans there.

Then you have issues liked neglected features there are some pretty cool features that have been in Maya since day 1 but they have been pretty much ignored.. Take for example Paintfx and Artisan both landmark features in their day yet 10 years latter we still can't render Paintfx natively with MR and Artisan has seen pretty much no improvement.. Why should we have to get Mudbox? There is no reason why Artisan shouldn't be a capable texturing and sculpting tool.

There is a reason. The sculpting/painting packages are still in a nuclear arms race about who can handle the biggest dataset. In Maya, we've done foundational work that is required to handle those datasets (Viewport 2.0). That said, the sculpting/painting packages have substantial feature sets, we've put effort into interop and I'm not sure that it makes sense for Maya to duplicate all of that functionality.

90% done new features is another problem I have, so new version comes around and we get some nice new features but much of the time they just miss the mark because some really simple and useful things are not implemented.

For example take the animation sequencer that came out in 2011 really nice tool but what if you actually wanted to render the sequence you created not possible unless of course you script it took another 1 year of waiting and $1xxx in subs to make that possible.

There is also I feel a big disconnect between what is portrayed in the Marketing and what is delivered in reality.

Lets look at this DMM plugin that was introduced from all the marketing material we all initially saw it was portrayed and a fully fledged destruction toolkit so to speak when in reality its a partial version which you need to pay for an upgrade to get full functionality (fyi i'm pretty sure this kind of thing is illegal in Australia might want to get some disclosures).

Viewport 2 is another big feature that was marketed, the actual feature itself is a great move in the right direction! But the way its marketed is as if it's fully polished feature and a major selling point... If your going to put something forward like this it should be so good that you can confidently ship the product with just viewport 2 and ditch the old one otherwise call it a technology preview or something.


Hmmm... Not sure what to say about the Marketing. Maybe you're reading more into it or seeing some material I'm not familiar with?

With Sequencer in 2011 I thought the message was pretty clear about using it for previs. Ubercam in 2012 could help with rendering but that came out of requests from our games customers to get the data into the engine as opposed to rendering out frames.

With DMM, this is a new kind of offering we're trying out and we get the feedback. That said, we do think there is value in what is there. Destruction is a complex thing and it seems the tutorials help. The tricky part seems to be understanding the tetrahedrals and how they define how the object breaks up.

Viewport 2.0: I think we've been pretty clear about what was possible in 2011 (large static scenes) and in 2012 (more complete workflows in Previs, Modeling and Animation).

If you have more specific points, we can roll that into future planning.

Thanks,
Cory

Cory

cmogk
04-14-2011, 05:15 PM
do you really have any feature requirements for mray?? it´s a couple of year adsk dont want to integrate any new mray feature in maya
i wonder if you still have some mayatomr developer... and if yes, can i ask you what they´re doing?


Not sure if you'll be happy with my answer as I'm not going to go into specifics. We've gotten the feedback that the integration could be better and to support that we don't want to turn on features just because we can. You guys say that it's frustrating when a feature is not 100% and we're taking a harder look at things to figure out if you'll be happy with them before we enable them.

Cory

Kui
04-14-2011, 05:34 PM
Create new scene, create object, translate, hit S, translate, hit s. open graph editor, enable weighted tangents. create editable motion curve, enable in/out tangents, select manipulator, attempt to adjust tangent...nothing happens. it's as if it is locked. once i click on the tangent manipulator to translate it, the translate manipulator loses the arrows and refuses to translate. the cg supervisor was also has this problem on his system. are we missing a simple step?

Same here! :surprised
Followed exactely your description. Tangents default is set to Auto in Prefs.
I'm on a 2009 Mac Pro, 10.6., ATI 4870

Bitter
04-14-2011, 05:50 PM
Maybe you can help me with some of the legalese in the future

You're welcome. . .

But you understand now that the relationship and how support is handled has never really been clear to Autodesk customers. Whether that's intentional or not (I suspect at least some CYA going on) has lead to extra confusion and frustration. Where do I go for help?

The answer is Autodesk. But this is rarely communicated, even from the previous posts where it's suggested that someone go to mental images for help. mental images, even if mental ray is responsible for the bug, cannot re-integrate the fix into Maya. This sould be where your "partnership" kicks in.

So we're back to Autodesk

I don't have to have a physical contract to understand:
A. What Autodesk tells me
B. What mental images tells me
C. The consistent nature of the customer/partner relationship (which is both true and misleading)

Your best solutions are (in descending order or preference)

1. Open mayatomr. Make the translator something we can all modify. I understand there may be some exposure issues with internal Maya hooks, but those can be removed. Renderman and Arnold make this process much easier and desirable. (An understatement) So the question here is: Why make Maya and mental ray any different?

2. If Autodesk is unwilling to open the translator in some form then allow mental images to make changes to it and package it with updates and upgrades as opposed to waiting for a Hotfix. The mental ray module itself can be changed and fixed with much greater agility than waiting for an entire Hotfix to be completed for other issues. This also removes some of the burden from Autodesk.

marcovn
04-14-2011, 06:02 PM
Concerning Autodesk's work on the mentalray-implementation: They indeed put some work in maya2012. See the docs:

"Previously, all mental ray attributes were available in the nodes' Attribute Editor regardless of whether the mental ray plug-in was loaded. Beginning with Maya 2012, mental ray attributes are only accessible when the mental ray plug-in (Mayatomr.mll) is loaded."

Which means, because they can't get the development up to date, they finally give us a way to completly ban mr out of maya. Thank you autodesk!

Now my money is needed to buy VRay and not the creative suite....

Bitter
04-14-2011, 06:05 PM
"Previously, all mental ray attributes were available in the nodes' Attribute Editor regardless of whether the mental ray plug-in was loaded. Beginning with Maya 2012, mental ray attributes are only accessible when the mental ray plug-in (Mayatomr.mll) is loaded."

This is actually a good thing. It means they can change the way it's exposed and allow mental images easier access if they were to do their own plug-in. They won't have the dependencies built-in and replacing the renderer would be easier.

The problem is whether or not mental images would indeed get control of that plug-in. (Hopefully)

Bitter
04-14-2011, 06:14 PM
The end result is the original idea where it seems mental ray is the successor to the Maya renderer doesn't work well when development falls behind.

Either lack of resources or lack of trying, doesn't matter. The renderer is best treated as a plug-in instead of an integrated product.

I can understand that testing new features means it won't be available immediately, but waiting 4-5 years for Production shaders, 2-3 years for built-in IBL, 2-3 years for Progressive, etc. makes that argument seem specious.

Better availability of these features would improve their time to "production ready" instead of stunting it. Which is why an open translator would be great. No more geo shaders to use a feature. Then I can try it and report the result. AD could then take that feedback to mental images and work on the exposure of the features. (Sounds like "Help me help you")

I would very much like to know what happens to reports when there is a bug found in an unexposed feature. For now you cannot get support when using one, like a mip production shader. But is the bug cataloged anyway for eventual integration? Maybe Ash would know.

Narann
04-14-2011, 06:25 PM
Is it as impossible (I suppose when we want, we can...) to MI to get mayatomr and redo, from it a good integration?

If yes, why? :shrug:

I'm just curious.

Kui
04-15-2011, 06:18 PM
Man, I can't figure this out. after resetting all the preferences, i'm still getting funky results. setting two keys, adding motion trail, and then enabling show tangents, the tangents don't show up where they should - they are positioned directly over the keyframe. if i open the graph editor and make a small change to the tangent in there, the tangent shows up in the correct spot in 3d...however, i still can not manipulate it. :banghead: editable motion trails was the feature i was looking forward to the most...

Hey, I just digged through the release notes and found the reason under "Feature Limitiations" (at least it works for me):

381927 - Can't edit motion trail tangents with Soft Selection

So, I disabled it - and it works now! :thumbsup:
Check reflection as well, or better reset the move tool. Should do the trick.

gandhics
04-15-2011, 07:17 PM
If I were the CEO of Autidesk, I wouldn't spend much money for Maya "development".

Why? Because people buys Maya in any way, they say it is "must-use-industry-stanadard". Many people does not even look at other options. What's the point of spending money for "development"? Just release a few pr article on media "XXX movie done with Maya", then users will live happily ever after.

CB_3D
04-15-2011, 09:33 PM
I´m trying to remap Mayas Pan navigation to Shift+Alt+LftClick like I have it ingrained from Lightwave, but am stuck looking at the hotkey editor without knowing what to do, LOL.

It looks as if Maya doesn´t support ALT+SHIFT hotkeys only without a 3rd "normal" key, or am I missing something?

Would appreciate any help with this!

cmogk
04-19-2011, 02:26 AM
I would very much like to know what happens to reports when there is a bug found in an unexposed feature. For now you cannot get support when using one, like a mip production shader. But is the bug cataloged anyway for eventual integration? Maybe Ash would know.

When bugs or feature requests are logged we share them with mental images.

Cory

mastone
04-24-2011, 06:40 PM
Well after spending like half an hour to an hour with 2012 I got fed up with it, although I really like the Viewport 2.0 ( I actually don't care that it is 3ds Max technology, it's functional and really improves the working of Maya), which actually works quite well with my outdated Quadro FX 4600 card :).
But I found to much stuff that really bugs me, first of all, was the quick way of choosing your selection ( lasso select/paint select) method got ripped out which I used to do by pressing and holding Q and pressing LMB which brought up a marking menu.
The other thing that annoyed me was the stupid yellow caddy that appears when I extrude a polyface from a cube and I can't find a way to turn this dumb ass feature off, these to me are pointless additions to maya which really clutters the workspace and dumbs down Maya in the process, making it a fat donkey instead of this lean racehorse ( at least I stayed of the car analogies ;) )
I really hoped that this nonsense would stop with the attrocity that is called the viewcube, I don't mind the viewcube in itself by the way, but it isn't functional like the old manipulator was in Maya 7 .Back then if you clicked on the Z axis it snapped to a frontview which was orthograpic and sticked to this behavior untill you pressed " home" again, now it's just the thing I need to turn off when I first start up a new version of Maya instead of something useful.
Same goes for this interactive creation stuff just leave it off and if someone likes to have it on he/she will find his or her way to that option( stuff like this really leaves me wondering if there is still someone form the alias developers still working there because to me it looks like 3ds Max developers that work on Maya)

I read somewhere in this thread that you guys should hire someone from Apple marketing, while I do think you guys can learn a lot from Apple in the way they position their products in the market, I think that if you guys consider hiring someone from Apple it should be an interface designer, I mean with each release you add extra stuff which does less and instead of simplifying the interface you make it bulkier and more segmented just a few short examples( otherwise I would just be flaming ;) ):

With the extra stuff that does less I mean something like an insert edge loop tool and the slide edge tool, if I didn't knew the shortcuts I first had to go to the menu insert the edgeloop and then go to the menu and do a slide edge operation to move the edge ..... there once was a nifty " little" tool which was called MJ polytools, there I could insert an edge loop and postion the edge by adjusting a value that appeared in the channelbox, I am not saying that you guys should copy this old workflow but to me this was a more compact and elegant solution and also incorporated more tools in one, I would say develop a component space movement which " understands" the selected components and their relation to the object.

With regards to simplifying the interface I will take as an example the menusets:
It used to be : Modeling, Animation, and so on, a couple of versions back Autodesk changed this to :
Polygons, surfaces etc. further segmenting the interface making it clunkier.
as a separate thing this may not be a dealbreaker, but if you spread this way of thinking all over the package I think it is definitely an issue
It's my believe that operations need to be spread over as little mouseclicks and/or tools as possible.

Working with floating windows is a pain as well especially the attribute editor ( which for some reason hasn't got a minimize button), you see I work with 2 screens one for a fully maiximized viewport and another with all the floating windows ( hypershade, outliner and so on) when I am tweaking a render i usually have the renderview maximized in one screen but sometimes I need tochange stuff in the material, so i need to acces the attribute editor, so I press CTRL A, it used to pop out to the foreground, I adjusted the value, pressed the renderview window, bringing it to the foreground and I could do another (region)render, but now it stays behind the renderview it looks like a small thing but it reall breaks down the speed, also just add a minimize button to the attribute editor .
Another thing that is annoying is that when I minimize a window it minimizes on top of the scene feedback( where stuff like renderprogression or tooltips come up), in the past I could move all these minimezed stuff to the second screen and it remembered it now everytime I minimize it goes back to the scene feedback position.
I think it's insane that I have to suggest this since it has a fairly easy solution; when pressing minimize on a floating window , minimize it to a small dock in the viewport just above the timeline....which is elegant and not annoying anymore

Another thing I find worrying is the crude implementation of so called new features and the addition of trialware( which IMO is an inheritance of an insane update schedule).
There are probably people who disagree with me on this but I personally don't see the point of adding this Human Ik stuff ( from Motionbuilder) into Maya first of all it's only for humanoids, there isn't a way to rig a spider with human IK, now I can hear the objection: it isn't made for that, but that in a way proves my point it isn't a maya tool and to me doesn't feel like a maya tool but a motionbuilder tool with a slight maya sauce, I do think Maya could use an update on it's rigging tools but not like this, take a look at Anzovin studios' the set up machine or even on this forum where I saw a guy developing his very own rigging system based on curves( sorry forgot where it's located) and develop an intuitive new rigging model ( maybe one where you can add Ndynamic atributes for secondary animation) which actually feels like a maya tool.
With the acquistion of XSI, I really hoped that stuff like ICE and Facerobot would be implemented in an intuitive way into Maya( or at least certain handy stuff ), but instead we get served with suites which in my opinion is saying :" well programming stuff takes a bit to much out of us, let's just chuck it in a box add an one click interoperability feature( automated FBX import/export), change the autodesk branding from software developer to " solution provider" and were done".
The trialware is another thing ( Craft/DMM etc) I don't care if it DMM has a teth limit of 500 or 5000, I think that you should chuck stuff like this in the bonus tools and mark it as a limited featured thing for trying it out, but these companies probably paid Autodesk to get it " in" maya and if that is so... shame on you Autodesk, I mean you guys make a good profit where a lot of companies would be jeaulous of ....so you don't need it....

Another thing which I find annoying is the yearly updates, come on guys you can't churn out a full release each year with new groundbreaking stuff and I personally get a bit annoyed by installing Maya 4 times a year ( i have included the hotfixes which for some reason are always full packages), If I would have a studio I would really not be bothered by upgrading or subscription since it would take to much time and the benefits are not there ( compared from version to version), but my guess is that autodesk probably demands them to be on subscription in order to receive help...really a golden model , (bordering blackmail).
I would instead update following a 3 year plan:
Year 1: new versions come out , gather customer feedback and work on bugs
Year 2: build a point release with bugfixes and maybe some Beta features, gather feedback from big companies like ILM/SONY/Dreamworks etc)
Year 3 : polish the new release and release another pointrelease
Year 4 : release new version, maybe with a surprise new feature.
IMO this is a more feasable way of upgrading instead of the crashmodel you guys are implementing now and people will stay on SUBS because they really feel that the package progresses.

Another thing is to not necessarily focus on new features all the time, because in all honesty, with all the packages that are out there and which I use, I just can't keep up and I would be surprised if I would be the only one.
Instead try to improve on stuff which I already use :
Modeling tools:
I think most of the Maya modeling tools are a bit outdated or atleast very rapidly aging, take a look at packages like Modo/Rhino, the way you interact with Nurbs and poly objects is really open to improvement within Maya, but here are some examples
- Extrude tool: it sometimes behaves very unpredictable, having played with XSI ( 6.5) I know this can be improved dramatically, some examples are extruding along or from a curve where the edge/face twists in an impossible angle, this has probably something to do with an up vector ( like when a camera is added to a motionpath and flips his Y axis after a certain point), another example of this is when you have something like a shirt on a character and want to extrude an edge along the entire front and around the neck to add thickness to the shirt if you try to do that now I always end up with some funky bowties and intersecting geometry when attempting this in local space, I can extrud in world space but this leaves me editing a lot by hand which gets annoying and involves a lot of vertex shoving.
another thing that would be handy is when you have something simple like a cube and extrude one of it's faces and change the direction, that the face you extruded from adjusts its orientation based on where the extrude is going to( distance and orientation) and the face that is " before" that, this way you don't have to rotate it by hand and it would really speed up workflow
-Booleans: Do I really need to explain this one? I hope not, please make it so that if someone makes use of a boolean operation that the resulting mesh has proper edge/vertex connections so I can add stuff like bevels
-Make live tool in combination with create polygon tool could equate to a retopology tool, the only thing that needs to be done to make it workable in its crudest for m is to make sure that there is an option to the create polygon which would be quad only which in turn features an auto continu and merge vertex funtionality , if you don't know what I mean take a look at the Draster NEX plug in.

I think if you ask experts in their respective fields what could be improved you can get a pretty decent list of improvements to the toolset.

One thing I really hope you will work on is the addition of component space movement, you now have world and local space but not componentspace, I am well aware that there is an option where you can set to selected edge face/vertex but that always leaves with some strange pivot orientations and isn't very intuitive, I will try to explain what I mean by this example:
when you create something like a cylinder as a default it is at the origin and aligned according to world space, but when you rotate it 45 degrees in any direction world space doesn't really work, so I usually switch over to local space, so everything fine so far...but when I extrude the faces creating a slight bend ( like an arm), local space doesn't work anymore since the components are aligned differently in relation to the original shape, it would be sweet if there was a componentspace so that when I select a ring of vertices, Maya understands where these vertices are and to what they relate and adjust the orientation of the manipulator accordingly, so that if I select one of the ends it understands that it basically has to align itself with the face, but when I select the middle part it understands that it is betwen two ends and needs to interpolate between these two.
It would also be nice if this would go automatically so that you always have an optimal alignment of the manipulator.
If you want to adjust it manually you can press insert ( or hold D) to change the pivot placement within a scene, but it would be a nice addition if you press insert and you can rotate the pivot aswell and when you're done press insert , if you want it to go back to it's automated behavior press and hold W and press LMB a markin menu appears where you can press reset ,( also make sure you have an automated checkbox so that people can turn the automated behavior of World/ local component space behavior on or off ) which sets it back to it's default behavior and alignment.

Stuff like this seems to be a lot more use full to me then trying to make the hypershade/framebuffer into a precompositing thingy or even like that FCP timeline stuff


These are just a couple of points I can name out of the top of my head, I tried keeping it as objective and constructive as possible, I do realise that the software engineers have nothing to say on the matter and that it is much like a topdown system and some grandplan is involved, but I do hope that Autodesk as a company realizes that people in the entertainment industry are in general very knowledgeable when it comes to software and I have a feeling ( could be mistaken of course) that if you guys continu down this route ( forcing subscription combined with a one size fits all mentality, pleasing the stockholders) a lot of companies will look at other workflows or in some case develop their own tools ( think of Houdini, modo, arnold, ZBrush,and even comparitive small developers like Ikinema( cheap mocap) ), I feel that if you truly strive for quality and really keep developing the tools autodesk has ( Maya 3ds Max etc.) acquired, that this works better then any marketing strategy in the world and it would be a pleasure to read threads like this ( from an Autodesk point of view ).

Buexe
04-25-2011, 05:29 PM
So the gist of it is anything that will flag the dependency graph dirty post deformation is going to kick you off the GPU and back to the DG. So for a character example lets say you've got a skinned character and there is a smooth node added after the skinning. At every frame Maya is going to eval that node and thus call a topology change in the DG which will flag the caching invalid.

So a few things to watch out for when using vertex animation caching:

- try not to have any downstream history after the skinning if possible.
- user normals will cause a topology change with skinning when the Deform User Normals is flagged (this is on by default) because Maya evals the user normals at every frame.
- super dense meshes will fill up the GPU memory buffer very fast so if you see high fluctuations in your framerate you could be reaching the limits of your card.

Once the cache is generated (usually takes 1-2 spins through the timeline) we disable evaluation of the DG and start streaming directly off the card so on good hardware you'll see some pretty nice performance gains. There's also a few commands I can toss your way to help catch when you might be reaching the limits of your card or system (i.e. system memory and GPU memory stat readers to tell you how much VP2 is using).

I should probably do a Vimeo video or something showing vertex animation cache doing it's thing when I get back to the office later this week. Would that help maybe doing a setup video and showing the effect topology changes have on the performance?

-s

Hey BoostAbuse, thanks for your explanation. A question that pops into an ignorant soul like mine is of course why the skinCluster node? It seems to me like a delibarate choice based on an assumption of how a character is structured. From my POV having the skinCluster node last is only for very basic characters okay. For more sophisticated characters I see more and more deformers added on top of the skinCluster, whether it is some sort of poseSpace deformer or the mayaMuscle deformer to add jiggle, relaxation or whatever. Or is what you are referring to topology changes like adding edge loops, etc and just moving points areound is okay? Would a standard geo cache work in this case, where the original mesh with history ould get hidden? Anyway, thanks again for your input!

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