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View Full Version : rendering in Arnold ..?? when ?


T4D
02-28-2011, 09:37 AM
rendering in Arnold ? what news is out there of a Softimage release ? maybe in 2012 ?

http://solidangle.com/coming_soon.htm l

ShaderOp
02-28-2011, 10:29 AM
No one knows. And if anyone does know, then they aren't telling :banghead:

There was a discussion (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=2&t=931249&page=1&pp=15) here a couple of weeks ago that touched upon this very subject, in which Raff had this to say:
As for the release date, I guess solid angle is firmly in the "it will be ready when it will be ready" camp, even if more and more people seem to think it's already much better than some other massively available products. My guess would be "within the year". << note the guess is uninformed, I have no info first or second or third hand on the actual release date or plans about it.
That said, it seems that it's easy to join the beta if you're in a studio and you're shopping for five seats or more (which I'm neither, sadly :sad: ) Send them an email and see how it goes. I sent them an email a while back, and while they politely turned me down, they did reply within a few days.

Hirazi
02-28-2011, 10:33 AM
That said, it seems that it's easy to join the beta if you're in a studio and you're shopping for five seats or more

And as that probably implies something about the targeted client base and the resulting licensing, it seems almost fair to say: "if you're not already on their beta list, you probably won't be able to afford the end product". (Or is that too cynical again?)
;)

ShaderOp
02-28-2011, 11:01 AM
And as that probably implies something about the targeted client base and the resulting licensing, it seems almost fair to say: "if you're not already on their beta list, you probably won't be able to afford the end product". (Or is that too cynical again?)
;)
No, I would say that's a fair assessment of the situation :)

If I were to hazard a guess, I would say that even if they did release it tomorrow, it will still be a good while before they'll be ready to sell single licenses to any Tom, Dick, or Mohammad, as it would be way too much hassle in terms of support and logistics. Though I hope I'm wrong.

visualboo
03-01-2011, 05:05 PM
And as that probably implies something about the targeted client base and the resulting licensing, it seems almost fair to say: "if you're not already on their beta list, you probably won't be able to afford the end product". (Or is that too cynical again?)
;)

No it has nothing to do with the price. It's more that SolidAngle doesn't have the infrastructure to handle that amount of licensing requests. They most likely will be able to in the future (no idea when. It could be tomorrow or 2 years). Imagine having 500 individual users emailing support because they can't figure out how to install a license, or 5 studios with 100 seats.

I've been beta testing apps/tools/plugins almost non-stop for the last 7 years and can say without a doubt that the SolidAngle team is bar none the most amazing team I've ever had the pleasure to work with. They are brilliant and scary fast with updates and fixes. Incredibly nice people too. Having said that, things are moving forward extremely well.

I know it sucks when you see a product that looks like you could severely benefit from but just seems unattainable, but just sit tight for a little while longer.

ShaderOp
03-01-2011, 05:56 PM
I know it sucks when you see a product that looks like you could severely benefit from but just seems unattainable, but just sit tight for a little while longer.
The only problem is that "a little while longer" had always meant "forever" when it comes to Softimage and 3rd-party renderers :)

I'm sure they'll come through eventually, unless Autodesk acquires them and decides that having an umpteenth rendering option for Max is a higher priority.

Anyways, it's Softimage 2012 awesomeness day. That should keep us happily busy and busily happy for a good while.

bobamilk
03-01-2011, 08:39 PM
The only problem is that "a little while longer" had always meant "forever" when it comes to Softimage and 3rd-party renderers :)

where's that "Like" button when I needed it?

Hirazi
03-01-2011, 09:34 PM
@visualboo
Well, it may strictly speaking not be about the price, but there is something strange going on. The whole idea that they couldn't support that many requests seems slightly far-fetched as there are numerous smaller companies dealing with as many licensees as would be the case in a strictly Softimage related environment, considering (and I think we can all agree on that) it won't be "cheap". It almost sounds as if their product just is too good for the common people... (But that was pure cynicism, I must admit)
It's about time solidangle itself explains what they're planning to do with licensing & pricing, because, no offense to you, I hasten to add, this whole we'll let the beta testers do all the talking is getting stale... They've got everyone's attention, the viral beta tester marketing has succeeded, now it's time for some facts, I'd say...

(Some remarks in the post were a tad too cynical, I'm afraid, I hope this doesn't distract you from the point I'm nonetheless trying to make.)
;)

adrencg
03-01-2011, 09:55 PM
No it has nothing to do with the price. It's more that SolidAngle doesn't have the infrastructure to handle that amount of licensing requests. They most likely will be able to in the future (no idea when. It could be tomorrow or 2 years). Imagine having 500 individual users emailing support because they can't figure out how to install a license, or 5 studios with 100 seats.

I've been beta testing apps/tools/plugins almost non-stop for the last 7 years and can say without a doubt that the SolidAngle team is bar none the most amazing team I've ever had the pleasure to work with. They are brilliant and scary fast with updates and fixes. Incredibly nice people too. Having said that, things are moving forward extremely well.

I know it sucks when you see a product that looks like you could severely benefit from but just seems unattainable, but just sit tight for a little while longer.

Well, that ouflux of licenses sold will create an influx of cash to grow the business. This is when the company hires people to take care of those issues that arise from having a large customer base. You have to spend money to make money.

This is of course, assuming they even welcome the headaches of having a large customer base.

adrencg
03-01-2011, 09:59 PM
I'd sure welcome it, because every job I finish with Mental Ray feels like my last. I'm so disgusted with the amount of hours wasted dealing with crashed renders, tuning the right look, optimizing settings and the dreaded "what the F is crap that in my render?" The black art of Mental Ray is so dead to me. I want to move on.

I haven't slept more than 3 hours a night for the last month because of 2 jobs that should have been much easier.

It's either Arnold, 3Delight, or back to Lightwave.

I might even give Messiah a try. I bought the Pro version during their special offer.

I have a Modo license, and while I love renderer(but hate the shader tree), I'm finding its not for me overall, workflow-wise.

Cinema4D is OVERpriced.

T4D
03-02-2011, 10:44 AM
without Arnold ,. I've done the last few jobs back in LW 10

Sometimes MR render passes and comp work lifts things

BUT ,... a solid render is really missed since i move to SI.

MR just does not look pretty ( compared to LW and Modo )
MR is not error/Bug free
MR is not FAST. ( without a huge amount of tuning )
MR costs too much for render nodes

adrencg
03-02-2011, 03:36 PM
without Arnold ,. I've done the last few jobs back in LW 10

Sometimes MR render passes and comp work lifts things

BUT ,... a solid render is really missed since i move to SI.

MR just does not look pretty ( compared to LW and Modo )
MR is not error/Bug free
MR is not FAST. ( without a huge amount of tuning )
MR costs too much for render nodes

I wish there was something that could bridge SI and Modo -- just to use that sweet Modo renderer. I'm not talking about the MDD format. It needs more than that. Something to get the surfaces translated in a basic way, and use of XSI passes to set up object visibility in Modo. Ehh, just wishing.

jamination
03-02-2011, 06:59 PM
without Arnold ,. I've done the last few jobs back in LW 10

Sometimes MR render passes and comp work lifts things

BUT ,... a solid render is really missed since i move to SI.

MR just does not look pretty ( compared to LW and Modo )
MR is not error/Bug free
MR is not FAST. ( without a huge amount of tuning )
MR costs too much for render nodes

I am sure most here have heard the rumors on what Arnold costs now (it is probably fair to say that the price will remain the same). I don't see how MR nodes are more expensive, in fact the floating version of Soft comes with 5 (+1) nodes, which is pretty fairly priced when you break it down. I am no fan of MR rendering, but I can't see Arnold being the solution for small companies and freelancers, it pricing structure is more in line with Renderman. Vray is more in line with my budget, but who knows if that sees the light of day.

bravmm
03-03-2011, 11:46 AM
Not wanting to get lost in a pricing guessing game, I think in overall the question should be how much would you gain from different renderer?

If a renderer will save you hours of lighting wrangling, rendering time in less errors/re-renders, and less compositing time with almost finished beauty renders, would that not justify the price?
Even for smaller companies? And yes, freelancers might be excluded in this business model..

I'm in no way defending any pricing scheme here, but in 3DSMax country people are happily paying extra money to get a better/easier/quicker to set up rendering solution. Why would that be any different in SI country? :)

rob

adrencg
03-03-2011, 05:19 PM
Not wanting to get lost in a pricing guessing game, I think in overall the question should be how much would you gain from different renderer?

If a renderer will save you hours of lighting wrangling, rendering time in less errors/re-renders, and less compositing time with almost finished beauty renders, would that not justify the price?
Even for smaller companies? And yes, freelancers might be excluded in this business model..

I'm in no way defending any pricing scheme here, but in 3DSMax country people are happily paying extra money to get a better/easier/quicker to set up rendering solution. Why would that be any different in SI country? :)

rob

If Arnold solved all of those Mental Ray problems that cost me hours(maybe days and weeks) of lost time, then I would spend $2k per license. It only makes good business sense.

used2bgordy
03-06-2011, 11:01 AM
For what it's worth, I can say they are unable to sell individual licenses right now. It's not a bad will or anything like that. They believe in a top class support, so My guess is that if they can't provide it right now they don't force their way to the selling level they couldn't handle.
If you know what I mean.
I know couple of post production company owners and heard that they couldn't get any decent support (paid) for the last three months in Autodesk. They even couldn't access their accounts.
Solid Angle isn't this kind of company.
I did several projects already with Arnold and it's amazingly fast and simple. Support is awesome and fast.
You'll all would be surprised how good the price is. It isn't any prediction whether it's gonna be the selling price for the 1.0 version, though.
MR and Vray both suck ass and even dedicated users admit that in beta program. Using Arnold comes so natural, basically very little tweaking unless you're doing some complex stuff.

Hirazi
03-06-2011, 11:14 AM
Now wouldn't it be nice to hear some words to that effect from solid angle, not yet again, with all due respect, from the beta grapevine...
;)

jgj
03-06-2011, 07:03 PM
Crazy idea: if Arnold continues to be sold only to studios where mutliple (5 or more?) licenses are purchased at once, perhaps groups of five of us "single-employee studios" :) could form informal "virtual companies" and pool our funds. That would rule out network rendering, of course, but as fast as Arnold is on a single machine...

Of course, if Arnold is restricted to a local network license server setup... nevermind.

-Jim

ThE_JacO
03-06-2011, 11:24 PM
Now wouldn't it be nice to hear some words to that effect from solid angle, not yet again, with all due respect, from the beta grapevine...
;)
Given Solid Angle isn't explicitly asking people to virally market or leak (that I know of), and that Marcos has always been fairly private in this endeavour, I wouldn't expect that to happen this week or the next.

Well, at least you can take the fact that the userbase is so enthusiastic and pro-active as a good sign for the genuine well-being of the product :)

You can write to Solid Angle btw. They appear to be some of the nicest guys around, and maybe you can get some of the info you want to hear straight from the horse's mouth.
As a company with a product that's not publicly released yet, it's only a good thing that they are not being loud mouths on forums about it, at least for the non-jinx factor. The last two products that did that aren't doing all that well now ;)

adrencg
03-07-2011, 04:02 AM
Given Solid Angle isn't explicitly asking people to virally market or leak (that I know of), and that Marcos has always been fairly private in this endeavour, I wouldn't expect that to happen this week or the next.

Well, at least you can take the fact that the userbase is so enthusiastic and pro-active as a good sign for the genuine well-being of the product :)

You can write to Solid Angle btw. They appear to be some of the nicest guys around, and maybe you can get some of the info you want to hear straight from the horse's mouth.
As a company with a product that's not publicly released yet, it's only a good thing that they are not being loud mouths on forums about it, at least for the non-jinx factor. The last two products that did that aren't doing all that well now ;)

I'm guessing that's Arion and Octane...and yes, I bought them both.

Hirazi
03-07-2011, 08:16 AM
Given Solid Angle isn't explicitly asking people to virally market or leak (that I know of)

Well, while that's probably true, it still sometimes seems that way. If you look at the info (sometimes contradictory) that has been provided by beta testers over the course of this beta test, one really gets the impression solid angle uses a somewhat permissive NDA to say the least...
:argh:

ActionArt
03-07-2011, 03:12 PM
I'm guessing that's Arion and Octane...and yes, I bought them both.

What was your experience with these two? Are they worth anything?

bravmm
03-07-2011, 04:04 PM
That is and will be a difficult question to answer, as people's needs will differ greatly depending on the field of CG they're working in.

A renderer that will 'fit the bill' just fine for one, will be annoyingly limited to others, and vice versa.

In both cases I can say they both deliver nice images for the stuff I use them for :)

rob

ActionArt
03-07-2011, 05:37 PM
Thanks. I guess the main question I had was how stable/bug free they are and how well SI projects transfer to them and how good their SI plugins are.

adrencg
03-07-2011, 06:19 PM
What was your experience with these two? Are they worth anything?

they've both been out for a year, and as of this moment they're still not ready for serious production. Arion has been delayed with an update for almost a year, and they haven't released a plugin that works with Softimage for about that long also.

Octane is getting better, but it still crashes too much for me. Also, the lead developer has taken a hiatus because he wants to move on to another project -- before his original project is even finished or ready to fully use. To say I'm unhappy about the state of both softwares is an understatement.

leuey
03-08-2011, 06:19 AM
I think that will be Alembic, once it's done. They're a little late delivering the spec but I think it's ILM and SPI who are collaborating on it (so I'm hoping for Soft/Arnold out of the gate - I know Luxology is interested).
I'm hoping that will bridge the gap. I'm a big modo user but have been lurking in the Soft forms for awhile. modo isn't up for the animation and simulation requirements for some of my company's projects and I don't want to go back to Maya. I would like to model in modo, animate/simulate in Soft and then render back in modo (or Ah-nold if it ever comes out)

-Greg

I wish there was something that could bridge SI and Modo -- just to use that sweet Modo renderer. I'm not talking about the MDD format. It needs more than that. Something to get the surfaces translated in a basic way, and use of XSI passes to set up object visibility in Modo. Ehh, just wishing.

adrencg
03-08-2011, 06:44 AM
I think that will be Alembic, once it's done. They're a little late delivering the spec but I think it's ILM and SPI who are collaborating on it (so I'm hoping for Soft/Arnold out of the gate - I know Luxology is interested).
I'm hoping that will bridge the gap. I'm a big modo user but have been lurking in the Soft forms for awhile. modo isn't up for the animation and simulation requirements for some of my company's projects and I don't want to go back to Maya. I would like to model in modo, animate/simulate in Soft and then render back in modo (or Ah-nold if it ever comes out)

-Greg

That's exactly what I want to do, but the shading in Modo is a huge sticking point for me. Oh boy, I sure do hate that shader tree nonsense. It's complete and utter nonsense.

leuey
03-08-2011, 06:35 PM
lol, that's typically the reaction from people used to nodes. The Shadertree is pretty divisive, a lot of people love it and a lot of people hate it. Very much looking forward to Alembic though... hopefully it will solve a lot of problems at once and open up the doors to using whatever renderer you want.

best,

Greg

That's exactly what I want to do, but the shading in Modo is a huge sticking point for me. Oh boy, I sure do hate that shader tree nonsense. It's complete and utter nonsense.

adrencg
03-08-2011, 06:56 PM
lol, that's typically the reaction from people used to nodes. The Shadertree is pretty divisive, a lot of people love it and a lot of people hate it. Very much looking forward to Alembic though... hopefully it will solve a lot of problems at once and open up the doors to using whatever renderer you want.

best,

Greg

My problem with is that it treats the global 3d space as something like photoshop layers, with transfer modes and mask stacking, which is just plain wrong.

DoF
03-25-2011, 03:29 PM
All I can say about Arnold without breaking any NDAs is:
Don't believe the hype...

ace63
03-25-2011, 05:20 PM
All I can say about Arnold without breaking any NDAs is:
Don't believe the hype...

Could you stop spreading that shit all over the net? You are getting on everyone's nerves.

PiotrekM
03-25-2011, 05:53 PM
Yeah what's up with your antiarnold crusade Dof?

Hirazi
03-25-2011, 07:49 PM
@ace63 - What DoF states in this thread is merely an opinion, nothing to get worked up about.
And if he said something really offensive in some other thread, you probably should reply over there. Why "don't believe the hype" should be considered "shit" is truly beyond me...

BTW - I am not agreeing or disagreeing with DoF here, I am not even defending him...

;)

ThE_JacO
03-26-2011, 05:21 AM
Attacking a product like that, without providing any further info, is at the very edge of the rules of conduct for the forum (as it's not particularly constructive).
I'm sure you have a long list of good reasons to make such comment, although I can't think of a single one, but please refrain from making them on CGTalk while you're unable (at this point due to an NDA) to substantiate negative claims.

Jacobo
03-26-2011, 03:40 PM
I'm a beta tester of Arnold and all I can say is that it is downright awesome. Incredibly fast, stable and compatible with almost anything SI has to offer. I know that I can't disclose any info on the pricing atm, but to be honest, it is very very expensive as the product is designed from ground up geared toward medium to large studios. You can't purchase a single license, there's a minimum number that you are allowed to buy which makes Arnold not suitable for individuals and/or small studios. But I'm hopeful that this might change in the future, who knows? Currently it's price tag is comprable to that of Renderman, maybe even higher...

Cheers...

adrencg
03-27-2011, 08:45 PM
I'm a beta tester of Arnold and all I can say is that it is downright awesome. Incredibly fast, stable and compatible with almost anything SI has to offer. I know that I can't disclose any info on the pricing atm, but to be honest, it is very very expensive as the product is designed from ground up geared toward medium to large studios. You can't purchase a single license, there's a minimum number that you are allowed to buy which makes Arnold not suitable for individuals and/or small studios. But I'm hopeful that this might change in the future, who knows? Currently it's price tag is comprable to that of Renderman, maybe even higher...

Cheers...

Your "very expensive" might be "a little expensive" for others. I'm just saying mileage may vary when it comes to sticker shock.

....and it won't seem expensive it saves days of lost time dealing with the BS of other renderers.

jamination
03-27-2011, 08:58 PM
Comparing to Vray, FinalRender and the likes, I would say it is very expensive, especially in the area of network rendering, I could give a crap what is costs if it came with network rendering, but I would bet anything the price of that is the same as a normal license. I would say that anyone (from a small shop's perspective) that doesn't think that it is expensive, is probably not footing the bill. I have nothing against Arnold, but it is sad when it finally does come out it will not be THE solution for most folks that we have been waiting for (and it seems to be the only renderer that is coming anything soon).

ShaderOp
03-27-2011, 09:28 PM
Did the moderators delete a post that had the actual retail prices before I was able to read it? :)

Seriously though, I'm not sure how wise it is get worked up about the costs when we know nothing about them.

jamination
03-27-2011, 09:53 PM
the whispers have been around a while, I don't think the price is that big a secret.

oktawu
03-27-2011, 10:51 PM
from what i hear, the price per license isn't that much different from what's out there. what makes it expensive, is the fact that you have to buy a minimum number of licenses.
which, for people who are just freelancers, is a bit out of reach.
shame to be honest, since as most people put it, it is the only viable solution in sight
for xsi, outside of mray. then again, i can honestly understand solidangle's approach,
and it's far better for them in the long run. just harder on us lonewolves.

ThE_JacO
03-28-2011, 11:17 AM
Did the moderators delete a post that had the actual retail prices before I was able to read it? :)

Seriously though, I'm not sure how wise it is get worked up about the costs when we know nothing about them.
Not that I know of, but if I had seen it, I would have removed it.
If Solid Angle has decided not to announce outside the beta list yet, then it has no place here I'm afraid.

adrencg
03-28-2011, 03:46 PM
I would say that anyone (from a small shop's perspective) that doesn't think that it is expensive, is probably not footing the bill.

I'm a one man show, so I have to pay for my own software. Something can seem expensive to me, but sometimes I can't afford NOT to buy something.

Let's hypothetically say it's going to cost me $10k to get up and running with Arnold. If it's going to be the solution that keeps me from having to pull all-nighters and losing time/sleep, then in the long run it will pay for itself. TIME=MONEY.

Almost every problem on any job I work on is almost exclusively because of Mental RAy -- either dealing with crashes, weird/mysterious things in the renders or just spending way more time getting the look I want. I know that things can be more fluid, because I've been learning Modo, and the renderer is a dream to work with. This is the what I need to keep a job moving -- set up a few lights, turn on GI and let 'er rip -- with good speed/qaulity per frame.

I don't get that with Mental Ray, and i consider my self pretty knowledgeable of its quirks and such. If Mental Ray could talk to me, it would be saying "you're not going to finish this job on time, if I have anything to with it!" I've told myslef I'm never going to put myself in the position of almost missing a deadline because of Mental Ray surprises. It would be insanity for me to go down that road one more time, but I fear I may have to as I won't really have a choice.

The 10k spent would be worth it over the long haul, and whether I happen to have it sitting in my business account -- which I do(Just collected on 2 big jobs), or if I had to take out a loan to pay for it, it would be worth it. That is, given Arnold is all it seems to be.

$10k would be a struggle for me, but I would take the plunge.

$20k is a different story. I wouldn't be able to bring myself to do that. Now we'd be in the territory of large companies that throw thousands of dollars around like its nothing.

jamination
03-28-2011, 06:27 PM
small shop or not, I think if you flash that 10K in front of them they will probably be happy to take your money:)

CiaranM
03-28-2011, 11:43 PM
since as most people put it, it is the only viable solution in sight
for xsi, outside of mray.

There is 3Delight, which is at least available for anyone to try and is more than viable.

jamination
03-29-2011, 12:11 AM
There is 3Delight, which is at least available for anyone to try and is more than viable.

I own it, but do not feel the same way.

adrencg
03-29-2011, 01:33 AM
I own it, but do not feel the same way.

I wasn't too thrilled with the problems I ran into, trying the most simple things. The guys at 3delight were willing to help, I just ran out of time to play with it.

When I get some time cleared, I want to give it a fair shot -- I mean days, not hours. Apparently, there's lots of really serious (and nice looking) work that gets done with 3Delight.

DoF
03-29-2011, 11:21 AM
Could you stop spreading that shit all over the net? You are getting on everyone's nerves.I beg your pardon? Please explain what you mean by "that shit"?


@ace63 - What DoF states in this thread is merely an opinion, nothing to get worked up about.
And if he said something really offensive in some other thread, you probably should reply over there. Why "don't believe the hype" should be considered "shit" is truly beyond me...

BTW - I am not agreeing or disagreeing with DoF here, I am not even defending him...

;)Hirazi - thank you for a voice of reason here. I had no idea this Forum was owned by SolidAngle..

DoF
03-29-2011, 11:30 AM
Apparently, there's lots of really serious (and nice looking) work that gets done with 3Delight.Yeah, a few...
http://www.3delight.com/en/index.php?page=projects





:bowdown:

bravmm
03-29-2011, 11:46 AM
Hi DoF,

Like most of us in this world, you are entitled to your opinion without suddenly disappearing from the streets....
But in this case it is not the most decent way to vent your opinion, when all people involved are bound to NDA's and cannot say a lot.

OK, so Arnold wasn't your cup of tea, or you didn't get out of it what you expected. Or you went in with your expectations being way too high. Or something else happened.
Main fact is that Arnold is used as the main renderer at Sony, so it can't be all bad, can it?

We all had bad experiences with software, beta or non beta. V-ray for Softimage isn't really my thing, but I don't start posting in related threads that it's unusable.

In London there are companies using Arnold atm with very nice results, e.g.:
http://www.glassworks.co.uk/video/birth-0&search-type=all&term=all

or outside London e.g.:
http://www.shedmtl.com/fr/projects/news

and no, i'm not paid by Solidangle to write this, and yes, I'm able to play with the Arnold renderer.

So again, you're entitled to a strong opinion, but in this case it's not really helping anybody.

RebelPixel
03-29-2011, 01:15 PM
I dont really understand why everyone is crucifying DoF for saying what he thinks.
NDA works for everyone, i dont think DoF broke any NDA and released any information, its just his personal experience wich is more than welcome.

And thats because if you want to take with a grain of salt what DoF says, i wonder why dont you take with a grain of salt the wonderful things people are saying about this Arnold?
Just becauase DoF says "bad" things?

If you say nice things everything is fine NDA or not, if you say bad things everyone go nuts?
The fault is by not releasing info at all on this Arnold, either everyone shut up or you cant blame people if they have different opinions/preferences, always in respect of the NDA wich is the case here.

Personally i dont really care if its used by Sony, ILM or whatever divinity you believe on, the stuff those studios use are always FAR distant from the thing you buy out of the box, so its a pretty unprofessional way to compare Arnold at sony with the Arnold you get in beta in the first place.

And to add that DoF is not the first person who thinks and speaks about how lately Arnold is overrated, i've heard this from many other people, and again it is fair to check the other side of the medal sometimes.
I just dont judge anything that is not available but still if you cant judge in a wrong way you shouldnt be allowed to judge in a good way either. Where you trace the line?

Ok it might not a direct effect Solidangle wanted to achieve with all this silence around it, but here it is anyway, and its kinda normal because when you show something at public this is the normal consequence, nothing strange.

Anyway thanks DoF for bring to the table something different from the usual OMG HOW FAST ARNOLD IS.

And people are entitled to say opinions since Solidangle already went public with Arnold at Ubertage.

Just take with a grain of salt both positive and negative comments untill is out.


Robert.

ThE_JacO
03-29-2011, 02:40 PM
I dont really understand why everyone is crucifying DoF for saying what he thinks.
NDA works for everyone, i dont think DoF broke any NDA and released any information, its just his personal experience wich is more than welcome.
Lets get a couple things down easy and simple.
I don't think anybody is crucifying DoF, and we don't need a crusaders and victims game. Please lets not over-dramatize this.
Brav and DoF seem to have beef from somewhere else. I'm sorry you guys do, I do ask both of you kindly that you take it out of these forums though.

And thats because if you want to take with a grain of salt what DoF says, i wonder why dont you take with a grain of salt the wonderful things people are saying about this Arnold?
Just becauase DoF says "bad" things?
Praise, however excessive, if not artificial (fake accounts from a person with vested interest, which is NOT the case here), hardly ever has any consequences. People will get excited maybe, but they will still want a demo and some client feedback before shelling out cash for it. It also dies fast.

Snide comments, weasel statements, non-sequiturs that use the same NDA boundaries to drop a negative comment that cannot be attacked without incurring in the same fallacy, can quickly become flame wars.
See this and other threads, ever seen one coming from just hype or just naysaying? Nope, when the two collide, and cannot be resolved without ad hominem attacks, it always turns ugly.
It is also, unlike hype threads and news, the root of litigation over libel or slander.

There are very good reasons, therefore, to discourage that kind of posts first and foremost, until they can be backed up with some data and outside of a contractual obligation.

If you say nice things everything is fine NDA or not, if you say bad things everyone go nuts?
Again, leave the drama out of here, please.
Nobody's gone nuts. And as stated above, yes, there is a preferred behaviour between the two (given NDAs ARE involved, and only one camp is in violation of it).

The fault is by not releasing info at all on this Arnold, either everyone shut up or you cant blame people if they have different opinions/preferences, always in respect of the NDA wich is the case here.
It's either in violation of the NDA (inferred), and I would know since I have it here (still unsigned, sorry Marcos), or unfounded. Either way, it's not welcome without some details to back it up that solid angle is willing to unbind from the obligations.
This is a common courtesy offered to all companies and clients of such companies of all software. Not specific to this thread.

Personally i dont really care if its used by Sony, ILM or whatever divinity you believe on, the stuff those studios use are always FAR distant from the thing you buy out of the box, so its a pretty unprofessional way to compare Arnold at sony with the Arnold you get in beta in the first place.
It actually, and fundamentally, is.
If you buy into the idea that the large companies get all their major software highly tailored from the software companies just to their needs, I'm sorry, you're sorely mistaken and you bought into one of the greatest delusions of our industry :)

And to add that DoF is not the first person who thinks and speaks about how lately Arnold is overrated, i've heard this from many other people, and again it is fair to check the other side of the medal sometimes.
This is a weasel statements. Name the sources, the context, or at the very least give us an idea of their reliability, or refrain from making them.
You can read up about the idea of weasel words here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word

I just dont judge anything that is not available but still if you cant judge in a wrong way you shouldnt be allowed to judge in a good way either. Where you trace the line?
At things that have legal consequences, given that contracts are involved. Very simple.
The weight of each side (one providing images, comparisons, render times, videos etc., the other providing one-liners) also helps to draw that line.

I would be grateful if this could be the end of it. On both sides.
This is not about Arnold, it's about how this forum runs and how we manage to stay out of both companies and users' ways.
Cheers,
Raff

adrencg
03-29-2011, 04:24 PM
While we're quoting Wikipedia, everyone should give this one some attention:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wisdom_of_Crowds

Rotten Tomatoes works on the same principle. A general consensus is more important than one opinion.

ViCoX
03-30-2011, 03:51 PM
Personally i dont really care if its used by Sony, ILM or whatever divinity you believe on, the stuff those studios use are always FAR distant from the thing you buy out of the box, so its a pretty unprofessional way to compare Arnold at sony with the Arnold you get in beta in the first place.

Arnold is owned by SolidAngle, not Sony. They just co-developing it with Solids.
Its the same renderer. : )
Now, if youre talking about SPIs internal tools, like "Katana". Thats different story, that depends how they are ported to arnold, but nevertheless, its the same renderer.

colour
03-31-2011, 09:15 AM
There's a link to an interesting little pdf on the front page of xsibase related to Arnold, and an upcoming presentation in April.

Hirazi
03-31-2011, 09:23 AM
Well the meeting probably will be quite interesting, no doubt,
but the pdf is merely a teaser, not something I'd call interesting as such...
;)

colour
03-31-2011, 09:59 AM
True. incorrect placement of the word 'interesting' on my part :)

Bullit
04-01-2011, 12:36 AM
A general consensus is more important than one opinion.

That depends on value of general consensus. It is also important that the freedom that build the general consensus remains to destroy eventually a general consensus.
Particulary i think that DoF should be allowed to say what he wants despite that right now i don't rate what he said much value since he don't came with details or hard evidence.
Most people -and people that have reputation in softimage forums- that touched arnold says good things about it. Of course reputation is not everything if it is not being tested everytime.

Helli
04-06-2011, 04:51 PM
Cause someone allready said that Arnold can only be bought in a bundle right now I disagree on the statement "it is very very expensive".

It's not (don't get me wrong, it's not cheap, but compared to other renderers it's a fair price)

jamination
04-06-2011, 06:36 PM
for kicks I looked up the price of Final Render for maya and it is like $995 and you get 5 render nodes, which seems l ike a nice price, and I believe an extra 5 render nodes are like $700. More than likely I would think Vray is in that price range.

McNistor
04-08-2011, 02:00 AM
While we're quoting Wikipedia, everyone should give this one some attention:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wisdom_of_Crowds

Rotten Tomatoes works on the same principle. A general consensus is more important than one opinion.
Yeah, but then again, the crowds also believe in a god or gods so I wouldn't trust the wisdom of crowds that much. :)
Don't want to start a debate about religion - couse we all know it never ends - just want to say that I wouldn't always trust the crowds and neither should anyone for their own various reasons.

Hirazi
04-08-2011, 10:15 AM
No, religion is a definite no-no... :deal:
But religion is, however, a good metaphor to explain the fervor with which some people defend or attack a renderer that isn't even available yet...
;)

DoF
06-30-2011, 12:02 PM
mental ray is regularly berated on this forum with absolutely no response from the mods. However, my post was not obscene, libellous or slanderous, and certainly did not break any NDAs. Neither was I attacking any fellow forum members. So to elicit a wholly disproportionate attack by a moderator here who then chose to ignore a foul-mouthed personal attack on me in the very next post after mine was shocking to say the least. For that mod to subsequently reveal that he is on first name terms with a developer of said software in this (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=6924395&postcount=51)post is more than a little worrying and entirely incompatible with his role as moderator on this forum. As I said previously, slagging off mental ray is almost de rigueur here, but my honest opinion expressed about another renderer I have used is hysterically fulminated against by a moderator with a self-professed conflict of interest. Entirely inappropriate, and that is putting it mildly.

Yes, I have used Arnold and I did find it underwhelming and certainly not what I had expected after reading nine years' worth of hype. I work at a very well known facility in Soho, London, which owns seats of every Softimage-compatible renderer known to humanity. I know I am not alone in my opinion, and if one contrasts my colleagues' responses when we acquired a seat of Keyshot [loud whoops and cheers as we stood around the monitor in the office watching it effortlessly rip through a multi-million poly model on a very modestly specified machine] then you will understand why.

RebelPixel, I deeply appreciate your post here (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=6924288&postcount=50) as it shows a refreshing, detached opinion which is sadly lacking in the comments of a moderator whose unprofessional bias is not worthy of CGTalk and very disappointing in the context of what should have been a full and frank discussion amongst serious professionals about the relative merits of different renderers.

I will, no doubt be banned for these comments as they evidently do not sit well with the cosy relationship ThE_JacO has fostered with the developers of one of these products. However, before banning me, would you do the right thing for my fellow professionals in these boards and go through each and every post which badmouths mental ray and berate their respective posters in the same fashion as I was for criticising your beloved Arnold. If you are unwilling to do this, then perhaps you should reconsider your role as moderator here. As an Arnold fanboy it might be more appropriate for you to start a blog proclaiming your opinions explicitly rather than bringing your bias here tacitly. You do a great disservice to this forum and free speech in general.

I should point out that I have no affiliation with Luxion, mental images, Autodesk, SolidAngle, dna research or any other developer. Despite having used all their respective products, both in beta and as fully fledged commercial software I have never been asked to sign any NDAs.

Oh, and one final point, I certainly do not have a "beef" with Brav - in fact I've never heard of him or her.

CiaranM
06-30-2011, 03:54 PM
Yes, I have used Arnold and I did find it underwhelming and certainly not what I had expected after reading nine years' worth of hype. I work at a very well known facility in Soho, London, which owns seats of every Softimage-compatible renderer known to humanity. I know I am not alone in my opinion, and if one contrasts my colleagues' responses when we acquired a seat of Keyshot [loud whoops and cheers as we stood around the monitor in the office watching it effortlessly rip through a multi-million poly model on a very modestly specified machine] then you will understand why.


That's cool. I know a few studios in London now who run every frame through Arnold, unless it's absolutely necessary to use something else. Each to their own I guess.
So do you guys render much production stuff with Keyshot now?
I hope you don't get banned! :)

McNistor
07-05-2011, 06:50 AM
omg Arnold has leaked lol

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-RWohQ6p2Wpo/TdR3xag43vI/AAAAAAAAFic/4AfzCuElxS4/s1600/arnold-schwarzenegger.jpg

PiotrekM
07-05-2011, 08:15 AM
Heavy drinking yesterday?

ThE_JacO
07-05-2011, 10:09 AM
I will, no doubt be banned for these comments as they evidently do not sit well with the cosy relationship ThE_JacO has fostered with the developers of one of these products.
I don't ban people, mods don't do that, only admins do, but hey, go on, add some drama and gravitas to the internet ;)

Also, you are implying and hinting at a lot, such as me developing God knows what relationship with companies and all.

I am no more on a first name basis with the Arnold team than I am with a number of other teams, which is not at all.
Several times in fact I made sure to mention that what I said about releases and so on is largely speculative and has no foundation in first, second or third hand info. So, chill, because I surely have no vested interests or conflicts of interests in the regards.
I have no affiliations or obbligations with Solid Angle at all at this time, nor it looks like I am going to enter any anytime soon, and that's pretty much factual :)

Some people in this industry frontman their companies, and are referred to by name.
This means I will call Stahlberg by his second name, Marcos, Aghiles and Vlad by their first names and so on, simply because in the context of their products or fields they are named front-men.

It doesn't mean I regularly go out for beers with those people (in fact, I am not on what "first name basis" means with any of them).

You have built some oddball delusion in your head attributing me associations, qualities and other things I don't possess or care for. Why is sort of beyond me.

However, before banning me, would you do the right thing for my fellow professionals in these boards and go through each and every post which badmouths mental ray and berate their respective posters in the same fashion as I was for criticising your beloved Arnold.
No, because they aren't tiptoing the line of breaching an NDA publicly. MRay is publicly available for everybody to use, form and share an opinion, this fact seems to have repeatedly escaped you.
Way to make another big deal out of nothing.

You can try and offset this as much as you want, but you will at some point have to come to terms with the fact you haven't been addressed because you dared berate Arnold, but for other reasons, and at no point anywhere as dramatically as you suggest you were (in fact I hardly addressed you at all, but more the people who are overly dramatising this whole thread).

If you are unwilling to do this, then perhaps you should reconsider your role as moderator here. As an Arnold fanboy it might be more appropriate for you to start a blog proclaiming your opinions explicitly rather than bringing your bias here tacitly. You do a great disservice to this forum and free speech in general.
Ahh, the freedom of speech card. Yes, CGTalk is well known to be a public place of meeting regulated by constitutional edicts and amendments.

Paint me as much as you want as a fanboy to try and shift this to an ad hominem attack, but I'm not, and all I have done is regulate something we have rules against.
I had also let go this thread, as had most other people, but you had to come in and necro a thread from months ago, possibly in search of some conflictual foreclosure you didn't get.

As for the post apparently attacking you, did you use the report button? Personally I hadn't noticed it (nor in all honesty can I be bothered going back through this thread right now), you, as a user, have a report function for that exactly for such reasons.
I had yours reported by several users and flagged as inappropriate for the record.

Thread is being archived now, you're not being banned, and I'm sorry you feel so strongly when you were hardly even talked to while in the process of trying to advert drama and to explain to people why it was steered that way. You might want to come to terms with the fact forums have rules and both an explicit and an implicit netiquette to them at some point.