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View Full Version : The 3dsMax 2011 snap issue - critical


Haider of Sweden
02-25-2011, 10:03 AM
The 2011 snap seems to have benefits but also one drawback.

Back in the previous versions, you could start moving objects, press S on-the-fly to snap.
If you would do that in 2011 it snaps incorrectly, I think because it uses another center point instead of the object's centerpoint.

I do not have an older 3dsMax around so I cant check the exact snap settings that were before but I have seen threads here and there complaining about the same issue.

So the question is; Is there something I dont know about, in other words a solution that I can use or can this be considered as a bug?

Eugenio
02-25-2011, 01:00 PM
You are not alone at this. There are many topics about snaps in max 2011 here and Autodesk's The Area forums. To make the story short, you cannot do what you want anymore. So please, vote here http://autodesk.uservoice.com/forums/76763-publicsmallannoyingthings/suggestions/1492847-bring-back-use-axis-center-as-start-snap-point- because it's now the place Autodesk officially accepts users suggestions. It's the best way we can get the older snap behavior...

Regards,
Jr.

Haider of Sweden
02-25-2011, 05:22 PM
Thanks for the link.
I am sure this is some sort of a misunderstanding from Autodesks side. Also, I guess its a tiny thing to fix and hopefully it gets done fast.

Decency
02-25-2011, 07:21 PM
My question here is, when you want to snap something, why not just press S before you move the object? How many times are you moving a vert or object and decide, in mid-move, I have to snap this. When you know you want to snap a vert, just press S, move it, then press S to turn snapping back off. I guess Im just not seeing the problem with the new tool.

Haider of Sweden
02-25-2011, 08:23 PM
Well, at least I can say; why shouldn't it work pressing S on the fly?
Second, there are other ways it used to be used, eg pressing space to lock the object and still have the objects center be snapped.
I am sure there are other issues. If I had the older 3dsmax on this computer I would know. After the update, all by the sudden stuff didnt work like they did.

Long story short; people are complaining because they feel limited in this "new tool".

Decency
02-25-2011, 08:45 PM
Alright, I guess that makes sense. Thanks for taking the time to post. I was not a big snap user in the past, but now in 2011 I use it all the time for verts, pivots, and I've found personally that it seems much easier to use. But, I suppose more options wouldn't hurt.:thumbsup:

Haider of Sweden
02-25-2011, 10:27 PM
You're right, options are healthy :)
However, I used to work with vert-snaps and such before too and the main weird thing by not having that old axis-center checkbox is that you cant have that mode default unless you select the center of your selection (the little circle). Being forced using that circle will cause you some delay. Hard to explain unless you try it yourself.

Well.. Lets just hope Autodesk is going to make things easy for all of us, no matter which is our favorite snap mode.

Decency
02-26-2011, 05:47 AM
Actually, I don't think you need to hit the little circle. I am doing it right now, and all you need to do is select some verts, press S, then use an axis or 2 to snap them to the desired location. You do not need to interact with the little circle at all.

Just pretend that the old use center of pivot option is on, which it seems to be by default now, and hit S before you begin moving them, not during. If you do this, it behaves the same way as before, but even better.

I seriously wish I had some screen capture software, because it works great if you use it this way.

Ruramuq
02-26-2011, 07:51 AM
this is more complicated:
max is using the last mouse click in the same obj, while snapping is on:
(or an incorrect value if snapping is activated for the first time while dragging the obj)

1. activate snapping(like vertex snap)
2. move the mouse over some specific point on the object you want to move **
3. click and drag, but then cancel using rclick
4. disable snap
5. start dragging the object by clicking on a different point on the object
6. while dragging press 's' to activate snap
7. move this object to the object you want to snap to

the point on the source object where you clicked first** becomes the origin

what happens is a bug, a problem in the design,very similar to an old issue that happens in viewport navigation when using alt key after canceling a previous navigation, and max forgets to update a variable.

plastic
02-26-2011, 09:17 AM
Yes it's a broken feature in 2011.
I hate it when this happens.

The reason why this is needed is that you can't grab an axis when snap is active, that's why it has to be switched on later on the fly, while being dragged.

Unfortunately only a few people seem to understand why this is important, so I have no hopes that it will ever work again.

Decency
03-03-2011, 01:28 AM
The reason why this is needed is that you can't grab an axis when snap is active, that's why it has to be switched on later on the fly, while being dragged.


Sorry, but if I am understanding you correctly, this is simply false. Below I will show you that snaps are in fact working, and much better than before. First, check out my settings.

http://www.3dece.com/question/snap1.jpg

I had some images here, but then I downloaded the trial of Camtasia just for this. Check out the videos below for some snapping action!
Video 1 (http://www.3dece.com/question/snapping1.mov)

Video 2 (http://www.3dece.com/question/snapping2.mov)

Video 3 (http://www.3dece.com/question/snapping3.mov)


Having seen all of this, it seems to me that snaps are working perfectly, and I don't even have Use Axis Constraints enabled. The only thing I will concede is that now, you cannot press S to enable snapping in mid-drag. This is technically something you could do before, but now you don't have to. If you want to snap something, just press S before you click.

Does this info help at all? I am interested to hear if there is anything I'm missing with this, but it seems to me we got a huge improvement in the new snap tool and I honestly don't understand why people want to go back.:surprised

Sidow
09-10-2011, 12:42 PM
Hi,

with regard to the snap tool, how do you disable the snap represented by the yellow circle were all of the axes on the Gizmo converge?

I find this new "feature" really annoying and retarded. The whole point of the Grid and Snap settings is to enable/disable snaps and yet this particular snap doesn't seem to have the option to disable it. Why is this snap a problem? It is a problem because when you are in edit-poly-mode and want to snap vertices to other vertices, or anything else for that matter, this additional snap takes priority over the other snaps if the selected vertices etc are fairly close together. It is now necessary to have to zoom in really far so that the selected vertices are far apart on the screen. However, because it is necessary to zoom in so far, the intended target for this snap is no longer visible. So with the vertex-snap highlighted, you then have to zoom back out again and then move it to the required location. I suppose x sort of disables it.

plastic
09-10-2011, 12:53 PM
The problem is, only a few people understand how it was broken in 2011 because they didn't know about the feature in the first place, to enable/disable snap on the fly (during a transform operation).
I guess the developer responsible for it wasn't aware of this either, so the feature was lost in rewriting.

The standard reaction is: you just don't know how to use it, or you have to config it differently. (That's coming from people who never really used snap in their life)

Now you could invest half an hour to fill in the complicated max bug report thing. I wont, because I feel like I'm unable to express the importance of problem properly.

Sidow
09-10-2011, 01:15 PM
Do you mean an axis constrained snap, where you can be moving a vertex along a particular axis, press Snap and it will snap to anthing that coincideds with that axis of travel. The axis of travel never deviating? Because you can still do that but you use the gizmo axes handels and a 3d snap enabled instead. With the gizmo handle selected you deviate the mouse to the item you want to snap to. You can't press snap on the fly but I don't think you need to. It seems to utilise that circle thing that you can't seem to turn off.

Haider of Sweden
09-11-2011, 08:21 PM
... because I feel like I'm unable to express the importance of problem properly.
I think we are more who are in the same position; we cant express the importance enough.
And honestly; the essence is that I cant really recall how it was before, just that it somehow did work with my workflow and now it doesn't.
Once in a while I remember specific cases where it was better before.

Now that I think about it, I think they are minor issues (to be fixed by Autodesk) but with major effects (for us users).

Anyway. Everyone who visits the autodesk uservoice link, please don't forget to put your vote on this issue!

Diffus3d
09-12-2011, 03:33 AM
This is the number 1 obstacle in trying to get students to learn max that are coming from maya. Snap not being nearly as good as in maya makes them think max is clumsy and unimportant.

Sidow
09-12-2011, 08:58 AM
This is the number 1 obstacle in trying to get students to learn max that are coming from maya. Snap not being nearly as good as in maya makes them think max is clumsy and unimportant.

But Maya has adopted lots of 3ds Max characteristics.
Remember when everything created in Maya was created at the origin with no option for mouse input? Remember the horrible viewport navigation that Maya had? As far as I am aware, you still HAVE to press buttons on the keyboard to alter the topics in the menu brought up by the right-hand mouse-button. In Max, whilst that is still an option, the contents of the menu brought up is relevant for the task at hand......and you talk about Max being clumbsy?

You need to tell your students that the right-hand mouse-button when clicked on icons actually does something in 3ds Max. Sorry, but Maya is/was the clumbsy one. It was originally created by Alias who also created Alias automotive studio which has the worst UI known to man, and woman! 3ds Max's snap settings are far superior to that of Maya's! Unless Maya has a whole load of keyboard- keys for the extra snaps that I don't know about, but that just makes it more difficult to learn.

No! Maya's UI is not as good as 3ds Max.
Maya is not as good at modelling as 3ds Max either.

Maya is great for having built in visual effects and animation. 3ds max is a mess when it comes to visual effects, which is why there are so many plugins for it. 3ds max's physics animation is a mess too with 3ds max 2012 being worse than 2011.

Basically what should happen in future releases is Maya's UI (Maya 2012 might be okay) and modelling tools be improved and for 3ds max to actually be developed, because 3ds max 2012 is still a mess.

Sidow
09-12-2011, 11:16 AM
Perhaps I should Clarify what I mean by 3ds max 2012 being a mess.

3ds Max 2011 has CAT built in, but CAT in the 64-bit version is so unstable that it isn't usable. (and support for CAT in the 64-bit Max 2011 seems to have been dropped, the solution is to use the 32-bit version). The slate material-editor was incredibly buggy on release. Also the whole point of the Slate material-editor isn't utilised. You should be able to select nodes in the slate-editor and see any keyframes that have been applied.

3ds Max 2012 seems to have a working CAT in the 64-bit version, but no reactor! (the physics animation application [created by a 3rd party company, surprise surprise] for 3ds max). Okay so they didn't want to pay the licence fee to Havock anymore but Autodesk had AGES to develop their own system and reactor hadn't been improved since Max6? (Even reactor was a bit of a mess with Havock-worlds 1 and 3, but option 3 not supporting soft bodies such as rope).
Instead they just supply a very basic version called "MassFX" which is identical to the Physx plugin created by Nvidia.

All this talk about Autodesk trying to attract new customers, but why would anyone want 3ds max 2012 over 2011 and why would any existing customers upgrade from 3ds max 2010? Because the stylised shading options in 2012 seem a bit gimmicky to me when a lot of functionality has been lost.

Haider of Sweden
09-12-2011, 12:47 PM
This is the number 1 obstacle in trying to get students to learn max that are coming from maya. Snap not being nearly as good as in maya makes them think max is clumsy and unimportant.
Yep, one of the most precise and powerful feature in Maya is the snapping, and still is (is even more now that the snapping got worse).

I think I felt that the snap wasn't really close to Maya's snap even back then, but enough. In Maya you could simply change the pivot of the selection on the fly, even snap the pivot to whatever item, and then continue.

The power of Mayas snap is the hotkey linking of verts and edges, while in max you have to pick them manually for each time you need to change snap target.
Enough with this praise, the maya-similar snap on-the-fly where you could use MMB _was_ in fact available in max before, for you could press space to lock and the selections center was then used for the snap.
Today, I think you are forced to use the tiny little circle to achieve just that.
Problems are those
- If you havent locked your selection: you might end up selecting another vertice because you missed the little snap circle.
- If you have locked your selection: you might still miss the circle and use some vert as selection centre.

Now that some of my snap related memories come back, I think this is the main reason why you want to use snap on the fly _or_ simply drag from anywhere as long as you have locked your selection, because this was the only way you could use the selection's center (there was a checkbox for that, called 'Use axis center as start snap point ', which I always had checked).

Anyone knows if this can be solved by scripting away the problem? Any good scripter hanging in this thread and willing to help us out? Pretty please?

Sidow
09-12-2011, 01:09 PM
:eek: People are being serious about Maya's snaps? I don't even know how to snap to mid-points in Maya.

Being able to move the pivot point by just pressing insert is nice though.

plastic
09-12-2011, 01:15 PM
Now that some of my snap related memories come back, I think this is the main reason why you want to use snap on the fly _or_ simply drag from anywhere as long as you have locked your selection, because this was the only way you could use the selection's center (there was a checkbox for that, called 'Use axis center as start snap point ', which I always had checked).

Anyone knows if this can be solved by scripting away the problem? Any good scripter hanging in this thread and willing to help us out? Pretty please?

Yes, exactly. 'Use axis center as start snap point ' needs do come back. The circle is useless.

Unfortunately you can't change any snap behavior with maxscript, it's all hardcoded.

Sidow
09-12-2011, 01:39 PM
Yes, exactly. 'Use axis center as start snap point ' needs do come back. The circle is useless.

I am so confused. The circle thing seems to be an axis center. Pre 2011 you had to disable snaps, select the transform gizmo, enable snaps on the fly, then move.

Now, you enable snaps grab the circle and move.

Or am I missing something?


My grievance is that the circle representing the transform-gizmo's center cannot be turned off. If you just want to be snapping vertices to other vertices, the circle takes precedence, which is irritating.

plastic
09-12-2011, 02:05 PM
The circle isn't respecting axis constraints, it's always overriding to free snap.
Before max 2011 you could grab an axis, turn on snap during the operation and then release at the desired snap point. If you do that now, the vertex will jump to a random(?) position.

The reason why it's important to start the operation with snap turned off is that in a crowded situation, when there are many vertices next to each other, that's the only way to make sure that it sticks to the selection.

Sidow
09-12-2011, 02:55 PM
The circle isn't respecting axis constraints, it's always overriding to free snap.

With 3d snap enabled, select an axis-handle on the transform gizmo and move it*. Then with the mouse-button still pressed, deviate the cursor to the desired snap point. It should respect the axis constraint and snap the circle (which is always active) to the desired snap-option. A green line will appear from the circle to the snap location.

Press the "+" key to make the Gizmo as large as possible, which will hopefully make it possible to grab the axis-handle instead of another object.

At this point you are probably screaming YOU DON'T understand! But I don't think anyone at Autodesk will either unless you make a video of it illustrating your problem.

*In previous releases when 3d snaps where enabled, the axis constraints were by default disabled.

plastic
09-12-2011, 03:32 PM
With 3d snap enabled, select an axis-handle on the transform gizmo and move it*. Then with the mouse-button still pressed, deviate the cursor to the desired snap point. It should respect the axis constraint and snap the circle (which is always active) to the desired snap-option. A green line will appear from the circle to the snap location.

Press the "+" key to make the Gizmo as large as possible, which will hopefully make it possible to grab the axis-handle instead of another object.

At this point you are probably screaming YOU DON'T understand! But I don't think anyone at Autodesk will either unless you make a video of it illustrating your problem.

*In previous releases when 3d snaps where enabled, the axis constraints were by default disabled.

For example, I got multiple vertex in a row, and the row is aligned to an axis...I want to snap to one of the selected vertices as starting point, but the gizmo gets in the way.
I have to use selection lock now for reliable snap. Previously I only had to use selection lock as a workaround for offset snap.
You could also turn off the gizmo with "x" in this situation, but there is another bug, that sometimes toggling the gizmo disables snap too, even if it stays activated, which is very annoying, because it's not consistent. so you have to press "x", and in case snap is gone, 2 times "s", then it works again.
It's one situation where the old way was better, there are many more, but as Haider of Sweden said, it's hard to put into words. I wish I could do a video, but I don't have max 2010 installed anymore.

Decency
09-12-2011, 04:12 PM
Snaps work perfectly in Max 2012, as they did in 2011. However, they work differently, so if you do the exact same method as you used it, it will perform unexpectedly. Once you understand the difference, the function is exactly the same. At least it is with Vertex snapping.

If anyone has a video of the snaps not working, or "broken" I would love to see it for myself.

Here are some videos I made of snaps working perfectly.

Video 1 (http://www.3dece.com/question/snapping1.mov)

Video 2 (http://www.3dece.com/question/snapping2.mov)

Video 3 (http://www.3dece.com/question/snapping3.mov)

halloween
09-12-2011, 04:17 PM
You could also turn off the gizmo with "x" in this situation, but there is another bug, that sometimes toggling the gizmo disables snap too, even if it stays activated, which is very annoying, because it's not consistent. so you have to press "x", and in case snap is gone, 2 times "s", then it works again.

What about hiding transform gizmo completely? (max showaxisicon)

Haider of Sweden
09-13-2011, 06:55 PM
... if you do the exact same method as you used it, it will perform unexpectedly.
Its a very good point. In my case I get irritated because I dont know exact how things were and if there are really some broken issues.

Of course, the snap isnt totally broken, but there are missing issues. Without hard-testing the old and new version, and trying to figure out all the possible ways to snap and that way find the bugs, its really hard to tell just by remembering.

Now that I tried the snapping again, I think my major critics is about, beside the missing snap on-the-fly, not being able to use the center (circle) in lock mode. If anyone remembers, wasnt that possible back then? You locked a bunch of faces/verts or whatever, and when you moved with the pointer outside the gizmo (since the selection is locked) you still managed to snap.
That was number 1.
2) If you try to grab a vertex (dont think it matters if lock is on or off in this case) but the circle is too close, the circle will have higher prio which causes problems: axis constraints will automatically be turned off when the circle is selected and the circle itself cannot be disabled/hidden.

The shorter description:
1: Must be able to snap in lock mode = selecting nothing, but still being able to snap using selection center
2: being able to turn off the circle (if this function
3: on the fly snap - I think this has a direct relation to no. 1.

I like your reflection Decency, that if one does it the old way, this new function wont work. But the problem is that the three points above which I recall are broken. The only cool thing with the circle is the axis costraint override. Back then, I used to have the "Snaps Use Axis Constraints Toggle" button on the toolbar. Today you only need to use the circle for that.
But that little (quite cool) feature killed some other useful. I rather have the other ones back than just this. This one is a little slower, I am very sure.

The best thing though, would to be able to keep the circle, being able to hide it, and have 1 and 3 features back.
Then I think I wont disturb you no more about this issue ;)


edit:
What about hiding transform gizmo completely? (max showaxisicon)
that ought to solve "2", hiding the circle. Thanks I guess!

plastic
09-13-2011, 09:48 PM
What about hiding transform gizmo completely? (max showaxisicon)

Yes, that seems to work. I'd have to replace the "x" action with that command.

Decency
09-14-2011, 01:16 PM
Thanks for the info, now I can see the things that are different and perhaps missing now. It does indeed seem that snapping "on the fly" is not possible. Personally, the new changes have improved snapping for me, although I could see why you want an option to use the old way. Thanks for explaining the issue in more detail .

Haider of Sweden
05-18-2012, 12:23 PM
What do you think, guys, will this ever be solved?
The resistance from Autodesk makes be start doubting myself. "Is this really broken?"
And I keep remind myself, yes it is. But then, why dont they see it?

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