PDA

View Full Version : Corrective joint morphs are not working properly for me


Dr Dardis
10-21-2003, 02:21 AM
Hey all,

Just starting on rigging a new character, and have decided to use some corrective joint morphing on the Shoulder instead of the usual muscle bones. I have been following MikeRB's little tute on the subject, but I find that no matter how I apply the morph in layout, the results are just dead wrong, and most certainly NOT what I made in modeller.

So... It seems to me that the Morph is getting applied to the geometry first, and then the bones are affecting the morphed geometry, which from my understanding is the wrong order, and would give me the wrong results I am seeing.

Has anyone on the list had experience with this, more importantly can anyone proffer a solution to my conundrum (sp?) ??

I am most greatful for any learned input

The Doc.:thumbsup:

kretin
10-21-2003, 04:45 AM
Morphs are always calculated before bones, but you could try using the "Use Morphed Position" setting on the bones.

Have you tried the Smartskin plugin?

Facial Deluxe
10-21-2003, 04:55 AM
Subdivison Order : Last
perhaps....

SplineGod
10-21-2003, 05:28 AM
I would take a look at this thread:
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=95214
and this one:
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=92415

Dr Dardis
10-21-2003, 06:30 AM
Thanks guys,

Jonny,
That might be it...never was too sure what that option was for, slipped under the radar:)
I shall persist. I have tried the smartskin plugin, it's very good, but doesn't solve the wrong order problem.

Facial Deluxe,
well,duh ;) although I have been known to forget it once in a blue moon. Thanks for the input though

Larry,
What time is it in LA? shouldn't you be in bed? no rest for the wicked :) I will check those threads pronto...

:thumbsup: always the same names being helpful, the three of you give a lot, 'tis appreciated.

Good days to everyone

Chris.

Dr Dardis
10-21-2003, 01:47 PM
Well guys, still no luck :(

here are some images. They show the shgoulder correction fo a twisting upper arm. The first is the control (no morphs). The second is smart skin, which produces the wrong result no matter what I do. The final is Jointmorph, which works now as desired. Major problem is that joint morph is very limiting, seems to be slower, does not work after IK (and I really hate baking rotation to a null etc...). Smartskin is a smarter application, it just is not predictable.

anyhoo thoughts?

Definately we need the option to have morphs applied AFTER the bone rotation, otherwise this method is Kaput. Jointmorph has that Hard coded, pity its application is not so crash...

any, see images below, and again Thanks for the replies.

Dr Dardis
10-21-2003, 01:51 PM
and...

Dr Dardis
10-21-2003, 01:54 PM
and finally the right one :)

kretin
10-21-2003, 11:12 PM
Yep you're right, Jointmorph does apply the morphs after bones. The trouble with this is it's applied after "all" bone deformation, which means a morph of a point moving in +Y will still move in +Y even if the character is rotated (where the point may need to more in -Z)...kinda stuffs everything up :p That's why Smartskin was created, because joint correction morphs "need" to work before bones...

I'd say you just need to rework your methods to compensate for corrective morphs being applied before bones, it really is the right way...

Dr Dardis
10-22-2003, 06:16 AM
Thanks Kretin

and Booooooooo Jointmorph. Doesn't work after IK, doesn't adjust to global orientation of heirarchy, sloppy application. What a lousy plugin, why bother...

Which brings me to the question, how would I model to compensate for Smartskins deficiencies? Catch 22 if ever I saw one. It will then always be based on trial and error rather than WYSIWYG. I hate that :(.

I mean, if I am using Weightmap only Like the Smartsking mini tute says(something I don't usually do), then in theory the points should end up in the right spot regardless of the order in which the morph is applied, right?

Or am I badly (sadly) mistaken?

SplineGod
10-22-2003, 06:23 AM
Seems like a real pain trying to do all this just to get the shoulders to behave. I think the bones method I descibed in the other thread is much much easier to work and you can see exactly whats going on in real time. :)

kretin
10-22-2003, 06:37 AM
If you follow the Smartskin tutorial, including using RotateSkelegon, then you should be right... I've used it a few times following the same steps as the tutorial and it works perfectly, the joint deforms exactly how I've modelled it...

I'm not entirely sure what is going wrong for you :shrug:

Dr Dardis
10-22-2003, 06:57 AM
mmmm...

Oh well, I shall keep trying, I am obviously making a wrong turn somwhere :)

Larry- I just wanted to give this method a proper go, because it might help in the long run. I feel that the Mirai way of setup rocks the mutha, and I wanted to see if I could get similar control from lightwave. I am guessing that you probably can, but in LW it always seems to be a matter of Tricks and hacks, as opposed to well though out tools (for setup anyway). So I was trying tricks and hacks, because in this case I want Despot-like control mwhahaha.

Kretin- damned if I know what the problem is, I shall redo the steps and see if it's workable.

Basically, it's a case of near enough aint good enough. serves me right :D

SplineGod
10-22-2003, 07:07 AM
I guess it depends on how you determine what tricks and hacks are. For me bones are simple and straightforward. If I can get 90% of the way using bones based on how they work and then shift over to endomorphs/weight maps/holy water then I still can. :)
I also think that if I were going to use endomorphs tied to the rotation of a bone I would pose the character at some frame and then tweak the endos using morph mixer to get it to look right. I would then use cycler to tie those endos to the rotation of that bone. The nice thing about his method is then you can back off halfway and retweak the shoulder shape with your endos again.
You can do this as many times as you need and tie this whole list of behaviors easily to the rotation of that bone.

Dr Dardis
10-22-2003, 07:51 AM
True,

I find that most of my rigs work fine bones alone, but the shoulder just never wants to play ball, in the sense that I can get a deformation that looks OK, but not exact. I have broken the Shoulder joints movement into eight Key extreme poses, incorporating The collar, upper arm and Bicep bone. My plan was then to correct using a series of endomorphs at maximum and minimum ranges using the smartskin plugin, That way I could dictate how each of the extreme states would look EXACTLY (because I had modelled them), and then never worry about the joint again. I just wanted to see what the results look like. The problem is, cycler or no, getting what you see in modeler into LW, and have the joint behave, it just aint working.

The reason I would go to these pains is so that I could develop a good A B C workflow that could streamline the process, and there would not be the need to tweak bones, add endless hold bones, or multiple expressions for all the little helper bones. The idea of having multiple endo's and shifting the percentages to get a reasonable result is an interesting one, but I want more control.

MORE CONTROL! hehehe :)

and I don't want to buy XSI (as nice as it is). I know we don't always get what we want, but its frustrating when you are close to a solution, but just...stuck :)

Thanks for all the continued input though guys, hugely appreciated:thumbsup:

kretin
10-22-2003, 08:03 AM
The shoulder joint is prolly the most difficult to use corrective morphs on because it can rotate on all angles. It's far easier to create and control corrective morphs on joints that only rotate on a single axis. It may be this aspect that is causing problems..? For example if you have a corrective morph for heading, and one for pitch, it could kinda mess up if the joint is rotated on heading and pitch...

I had decent results using muscle bones...

the other thing you could do is create corrective morphs for specific HPB rotations adn use expressions to drive it... don't get the IK then though :(

Dr Dardis
10-22-2003, 08:20 AM
mmm, I know, Its problem wrapped in a hassle :)

I saw your Spawn musclebones Jonny, downloaded the QTVR as well. Props to my peeps y'all, excellent, excellent work.

I have experimented with them as well, but the shoulder is just such a tricky joint, especially if you are going to acount for twisting in the upper arm as well. I was just going to try this method for a week or so, and see what I can get from it. It has sooo much potential as far as I can see, but just not quite there...

and I do agree that it would probabally be best for 2d joints. But the way the smartskin plug is, the possibilties are expanded. I could try with expressions, might do that next. so long as I apply them as a motion modifier, I can check "after IK". Might work.

at any rate, will try to keep the thread going if you are interested in my progress...

and again, Spawn, great work

Come on Aussie come on

:D

:edit: PS I have only been using the Corrective endo's based on one axis of rotation at the moment, so that's not it I don't think...

SplineGod
10-22-2003, 08:38 AM
There is one last level of control you can get. There is a plugin called XTool that is available now that allows you to manipulate points directly in layout. This potentially would allow you to sculpt things to an exacty shape. Again, these points can be tied to specific rotations, via cycler to something else. LW8 also has point level control in layout but you can ge Xtool now. :)

Dr Dardis
10-22-2003, 08:49 AM
ooooooooohhhh, that sound to me like a possibility.

Tell me tho, how useful and intuitive is the PLA in LW8 (if you can)? Reason I ask is that it seemed to be a "fledgling" inclusion from the Vids I have seen. Is it robust, and can you do the Mirai-like pose linking with the PLA in LW8? or will it be hacks again... I am a big fan not only of good tools, but good workflow to accompany them :) LW gets this right sometimes (its Vmap system kicks ass), and wrong sometimes (splinamate, what the hell kind of stop-gap was that!). feel no pressure to answer tho, I understand about all the NDA's and such ;)

Anyhow, I digress, will look into xtool...

Thanks Larry.

SplineGod
10-22-2003, 09:01 AM
To be honest I saw the point level control at Siggraph but didnt get a chance to see how in depth it went while I was there. If I had to guess I would say that you will probably have some way of controlling the point(s) via expressions or some such thing.
Now Xtool is only $60 bucks and seems pretty robust. I have done tests with it where I sculpted points in a joint into a particular shape. The points do show up in the graph editor and I was able to tie them into the pitch channel of an arm bone via cycler and it worked fine.
So I guess you could wait a couple of months or grab Xtool now.
On a side note Xtool also worked well with MD. I could run a collsion object into a piece of cloth and then tweak the points after so I could fix spots where the collison object was poking thru. :)
And splinamte...*shudder*... I REALLY like Shift Spline Transform. a free plugin that is really nice. :)

Dr Dardis
10-22-2003, 09:59 AM
Cool. I am going to have a play with the 200 point limit demo right now, and see how I go...

and Shift spline transfom is marvelous! I have found so many uses for it so far! when splinamate came out with 6.5b, I was so excited. then sad. But soon sadness turns to anger (to quote starshp trprs)....

and 2 weeks later, Shift Spline transform comes along Yay! Shame it is always 3rd party guys doing the job right. Still, waiting for great things :)

Cheers for all the help Larry and kretin, you guys spend so much time helping out in this and other lists, and still find time to do kick arse works. I am indebted

Chris.

SplineGod
10-22-2003, 10:32 AM
The latest version of Xtool is 2.0 I believe. Im not sure what version the demo is.

adrencg
10-22-2003, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by Dr Dardis
Hey all,

Just starting on rigging a new character, and have decided to use some corrective joint morphing on the Shoulder instead of the usual muscle bones. I have been following MikeRB's little tute on the subject, but I find that no matter how I apply the morph in layout, the results are just dead wrong, and most certainly NOT what I made in modeller.

The Doc.:thumbsup:

The problem may be with how you created the morph target.

In Layout, bend the joint to where you want the compensation applied. Save endomorph. Save object.

In modeler, make a copy of the endomorph(ctrl + F6 for the map panel). With the copy, adjust the joint until the creases are gone and muscle bulging looks good. Hit the apply morph button and apply the original version of the endo(the one saved in Layout) with -100 value. Delete the original endo.

Use the morph link utility function in expression builder to activate the morph when the joint bends. Will not work with IK though, which makes it almost usless, especially if you don't like baking.

Mike

Dr Dardis
10-23-2003, 04:39 AM
Thanks Mike,

That is pretty much cut'n'paste of what I did. If you refer to the third image I attached in this thread, the result there is EXACTLY what I modelled. The problem is, I applied that morph with the Joint morph deformation plugin, which is next to useless :(. Smartskin gives me less accurate results. I have also tried rotate skelegons as well...

I have done a few tests with a really simple 2-bones-and-a-segmented-tube scene, and it confirms that smartskining, well, doesn't work properly, least not as far as I can figure...

doh!

:thumbsup: Thanks for the input tho!

Chris.

Suricate
10-23-2003, 08:10 AM
Hi everybody, I'm glad to hear that you make intense use of my RotateSkelegons/Smartskin plug-ins. :)

DrDardis, I'm somewhat confused that smartskininng doesn't work for you. :shrug: Maybe (if you want) you can send me your object/scene files and I will have a look at them.

As far as smartskinning a shoulder is concerned, Kretin is right to point out that rotation around two axes makes things much more complicated (in a mathematical sense). The Smartskin plug-in is basically intended for use with rotations around one single axis only. I am currently trying to figure out the math of multi-dimensional rotations, when I have come up with a solution, I will let you know.

Mike RB
10-23-2003, 08:24 AM
http://www.3dluvr.com/blackbourn/web/tuts/cmorph/CMorphs.html

Does that help?

Mike

Dr Dardis
10-23-2003, 08:47 AM
Hi Chris and Mike,

Thanks heaps for the interest. What I might do is whack a quick example up on the internet when I get home, so that eveyone can have a quick Disect :)

Chris, Firstly, love your plugins. Rotate skelegons is excellent, and the workflow of the two combined is really great too. I agree that 3d joints are going to be trickier anyway, but I have tried very simple 2d joint examples. The smartskin plugin is awsome for applying the morphs, and the results are normally good, just not really what I modelled. I am going home in an Hour, I will whip up an example there...

And Hi Mike, yes, your tute was the first thing I looked at when I started this. If I use Jointmorph, it works fine but..... The jointmorph plugin sucks(thats not your fault of course :) ), so there are several reasons that's not feasible. connecting the morphs with Cycler or a Motion expression is also feasible and great solution. My real problem is that I want Exactly what I model when the Morph is applied.

I shouldn't be so stuborn, just want it to work, s'all :D

anyhow, I will post an example in while...

Thanks one and all:thumbsup:

The Doc.

baccarafred
10-23-2003, 12:08 PM
One things you have to be aware of for accurate joint morh correction is that you "MUST" have a different weight map for each of your active bones with "weight map only" on and the morph will be exactly the same that the one you built in modeler with "rotate_skelegons".


Fred

Dr Dardis
10-23-2003, 02:25 PM
And the Winner is Fred:thumbsup:

That was more or less the problem.

I Had done that (make sure weight map only is set to on for the bones). The problem was in the application of weighting. I had made some general Left/right maps, when I was just using them to stop left/right bone crosstalk. Then when I got onto this morph thang, I used vertex paint to automagically generate the weights for every bone based on a 1^128 fallof, to mimic the way I normally set up (as few weightmaps as possible, use the bones natural fallof). However, it (vertex paint) also tried to maintain the other weights, thus causing problem areas of incorrect weighting, which was not immediately apparent (ie. some points had 70% weight instead of 100%, really noticeable when doing twisting movements). This caused incorrect pinching around the shoulder yadadada...

Soooo... to fix it, I have Deleted ALL maps, then used Vertex paint to give me the weights I need. I have then used the most excellent Rotate skelegons and Smartskin, and they have indeed performed as advertised :) props to Chris Lutz yay!

I did do some more tests with the traditional method (endomorphs, -100 reaplied over the modified endo etc...), and this still gives incorrect results though, unless using jointmorph.

The upside to this discovery is that so long as this geometry is outside the influence of other bones (ie, arms are far away from legs) I don't have to use the weightmap only method except where I am applying morphs.

a lot of that seems obvious, but then it always is in the end ;)

Thanks to all who took time to help me out, I really appreciate the time and thought. I was worried about this community a while ago, but really glad to have stuck with it. I just hope I can repay you all in kind at some stage.

Much love to you all

Chris.

ps. I will definately post links to a small movie of the joint once I get it working nicely :) I swear

Ramon
06-01-2004, 09:26 PM
Well, it seems like I'm having this problem to. It's probably the weight maps. I am trying to have corrective morph for the forearm and I did use rotate skelegons in modeler and then I pushed around a massive amount of points. I then tried to rotate it back to it's original rotation and then save it as the forearm morph but, in layout it absolutely looks nothing like the sculpted morph I created in modeler at (111 degrees). In layout, I employed two methods of driving it - one was through cycler and the other was through Joint Morph Plus. Both were equally horribly disfigured:eek:
HELP.

Dr Dardis
06-02-2004, 01:26 AM
Hi Ramon,

When I was experimenting with this, I was trying to do a shoulder joint, and I found the only way I could get a decent result was to "Calculate" the weights in Vertex Paint. In case you have not seen this option, it is under the weightmaps section of vertex paint, one or two tabs along. It does automatic weightmaping based on the traditional Layout falloff values (^32, ^64 etc...). You just hit calculate, and Tada! it makes a Map per skelegon, with a realistic fallof. This suited me as I normally set up the bones to get the best deformation I can before I even think about weightmaps. Makes it less chaotic, more refined. So Anyway...

I had to include the relavant joints, plus any bones in the immediate vicinity with ANY possible influence on the points that I was going to use when sculpting the deformation. Once those maps are made, the rotate skelegons plugin will do the Job Beautifully (I assume you have read the Tute :) ). True WYSIWYG.

The expressions to get the 8 morphs working for the shoulder, that was the real hassle! :D

One last thought... Make sure that your bank values correspond in Modeller and Layout. I normally set them in Dstorms Skelegon editor, as this allows you to align the Bank handles to an axis in modeller, on a skelegon by skelegon basis. What Might be happening to you is that you are rotating 110deg in modeller, but your bones bank handles might be different in layout (This will happen if you do NOT adjust the handles in Modeller before converting to Skelegons in Layout, and THEN use "Record pivot rotation to zero the value"). I might be wrong (i don't have LW open to check), but might be an area to look at!

Hope that this helps dude!
Good luck

Chris.

Ramon
06-02-2004, 02:27 AM
Originally posted by Dr Dardis
Hi Ramon,
One last thought... Make sure that your bank values correspond in Modeller and Layout. I normally set them in Dstorms Skelegon editor, as this allows you to align the Bank handles to an axis in modeller, on a skelegon by skelegon basis. What Might be happening to you is that you are rotating 110deg in modeller, but your bones bank handles might be different in layout (This will happen if you do NOT adjust the handles in Modeller before converting to Skelegons in Layout, and THEN use "Record pivot rotation to zero the value"). I might be wrong (i don't have LW open to check), but might be an area to look at!

Hope that this helps dude!
Good luck

Chris.
I am afraid to say that, that may be the problem. I did zero out some of the bones while in layout via> rotating to appropriate angle> keyframe then >RPR. Though, I doubt I did this to the forearm bone - I'll check but, if it is, I'm done. That was a lot of time spent rigging (IK/limits/follower) in layout after converting skelegons. I'd hate to do all that junk over.
Not related to this specifically but rather in general, I have been really contemplating buying Maya 6. LW always seems to be playing the catch up game and it never seems to be on par.
I don't mean to rant at all, I like LW. Just really could have used Maya's SDK(set driven keys) on this deal. It's SO much quicker, MUCH MORE interactive and all around smoother.
:shrug:
Anyways, thanks a lot man!:thumbsup:

SplineGod
06-02-2004, 02:50 AM
Ramon,
Ive had good results with just using bones and no or simple weight maps.
Bones just hold points regardless if you use weight maps or not. When you rest bones in layout the points are weighted internally for you automatically. Weight maps can help fine tune it.

The problem is that what we are trying to do is get the appearance of muscle, bone, sinew, etc sliding under the skin. So basically what we need is a bone or weight map that allows us to define how much a bone attracts or ignores points based on rotations and other criteria.

It would be nice to have the points follow the bones when they are bent but not so much when the bones are twisted such as in the forearm, shoulders or hips.

What I do is to apply additional bones in the shoulder area for example that bend with the upper arm in the pitch and heading but rotate in the opposite direction in the bank to nullify the twisting of twisting in the shoulder. This is easy to do with a simple expression. I can also tune this by adjusting the bone rest length, bone strength etc. I can also fine tune it with a weight map. The twisting aspect of bones is usually the cause of unwanted deformations.

This is why shoulders are sort of the acid test for a decent rig. If a character can touch the top of its head or the opposite shoulder without either shoulder deforming badly thats a pretty decent rig.

Heres an example of setting up a character with just bones in a few minutes with no weight maps or careful tweaking. I have him touching the top of his head and the shoulder is holding up very well. I can still combine other techniques to fine tune it but this gets me there very quickly.

http://www.splinegod.com/examples/shoulder_test.jpg

Ramon
06-02-2004, 06:14 AM
Dr Dardis: Well, that's what it was. Now comes the "DOH!!!" part.

Larry, thanks for the info on your setup there. It looks great my friend!
The thing is though, that my corrective morph IS working - only I have to undo all the RPR. Which, if I went that way, would mess over all my IK setup (limits and all the follower instances mainly on the fingers). So I'm not to thrilled with that option.
It seems though that the new bone tool "twist" would work if I could only get the darn thing to apply my twist to the rotational values. After I adjust the bank with the twist tool (so that the pitch is facing the right way), I hit the spacebar and that should "cement" the change. Well, it doesn't. When I go to the rotate tool, the rotational values are still where they were before I did the twist. Yeah right - "let's do da twist".
Anyone have an answer for the bone twist not translating the change over to the Rot value? :shrug:
Larry, yeah, it seems like an all bones setup may be quick but, to get specific formations to appear like forearm muscle - the limitation with bones is that it will always have a capsule shape of influence. You can vary it size but, it's shape will always be the same. So trying to form out detailed muscles just seems more comprehensive with morphs/corrective morphs.:)

SplineGod
06-02-2004, 06:30 AM
Im not sure Im following the problem youre having with the twist tool. You can also use the remove RPR tool.
Also, instead of using follower on the fingers why not just select the finger bones and rotate them that way? I typically just use selection sets. The bones rotate additively anyways and theres no time in setting it up vs follower. Also using follower that way gives less control since you cant key on top of it.
The twist tool works differently depending on the coordinates youre using. In parent coords it works like the bank handles for skelegons. If you change to local coord space you adjust the pitch on the bone directly. When youre finished go back to parent coord system and use the RPR tool. I would suggest disabling IK before making the adjustments though. :)

Ramon
06-02-2004, 06:56 AM
Yeah, I guess you're right about follower. I just didn't want to hassel with rotating the fingers every time the dragon takes a step. But, I don't like the idea of it (follower) getting in the way of the freedom of movement when I need a different action.
About the twist tool, I'm working in parent coords and I rotated the bank with the twist tool so that the pitch lines up where I need it to. The only thing is that I couldn't get the darn thing to commit to that change. You say that after I use the bone twist tool, I need to use RPR... is that in order for twist tool change to take effect?
I'm just trying to understand why it doesn't commit my change. I hit the spacebar after I used the twist tool. Supposedly, from what is says in the help files, that is supposed to commit your rotational change. Apparently it didn't because, when I went to the rotate tool, the bank and thus pitch, did not reflect the change I made in the bone twist tool.:cry:

SplineGod
06-02-2004, 07:07 AM
After you run the twist tool what coord system are you in?

Dr Dardis
06-02-2004, 09:55 AM
[i] it seems like an all bones setup may be quick but, to get specific formations to appear like forearm muscle - the limitation with bones is that it will always have a capsule shape of influence. You can vary it size but, it's shape will always be the same. So trying to form out detailed muscles just seems more comprehensive with morphs/corrective morphs.:) [/B]

Exactly Man! Why get "Almost what yo want", when with not much effort you can get "EXACTLY what you want". The reason I have been looking into this method is so that I can get dependable, re-usable workflow. I guess I would rather model my deformations, then run the morph expression set-up scripts, I find it faster.

as for LW playing catchup, seems to be a touchy subject ('specially round these parts). I have been animating with Motionbuilder now, and I find LW8 to be a let down, as it seems to have a whole wad of new features, all of them "Halfway there". I am sorry, but "wait for the point release" is tiresome :). Motionbuilder is georgous, but has the problem that you have to use their rig, which is not always applicable (try animating a seal in MB). I am making a slow transition to XSI, but there are things that I will miss. LW has the best system for managing morphs BAR NONE! and I have been modelling in it for so long now, I think I will continue (at least for the base objects).

Anyway, to finish on a positive note, I have been loving this script, IK Key.

http://cohen-plugs.tripod.com/

It has two benefits. Firstly, it allows you to use IK for posing, but leave Fulltime IK off (so FK Interpolation). Very useful. Secondly, and even more useful to me, is the ability to key The IK Goal in a FULL TIME IK chain, and have the chains rotation "Baked" on a per frame and channel basis, so that your Graph expressions and modifiers will work properly even after IK :D

Yay

Much neater than MotionBaker (key every frame).

anyhow, I am rambling

nighty night all :)

Chris.

Ramon
06-02-2004, 02:20 PM
Larry: Good question. when I was working on it, I didn't think that by just using bone twist it would automatically change the coordinate system. I'll check it and post.
I'm heading to sunny south Florida tomorrow and I've still the packing to do. I'll be back in a week.
Thanks for the help.

Dr Dardis: Yes! corrective morphs - can't get more exact than that eh? Yeah, it just feels like LW is a bit clunky though, I do like it's morph system better than Maya's. It seems like Maya's blend shapes fill up the workspace and cluter it up quite quickly. Maybe it's just because I haven't worked with it nearly as long as LW. Here's Maya's selling points for me (Maya complete that is):
SET DRIVEN KEY - as I mentioned in my earlier post
Sub Division Surfaces (which are hierarchel/adaptive)
Artisan
Paint Effects
Lattices
ETC...

Thanks for the IK key info and link! I'll check it out!
:thumbsup:

Ramon
06-02-2004, 03:11 PM
Hey guys, I figured it out just by stumbling around - experimenting and it (twist tool) is working now. It's odd the only thing I didn't have on before was autokey on. Though, you don't have to key the twist tool, do you? Strange.
Anyways, I'm a happy camper!:bounce:

SplineGod
06-02-2004, 06:03 PM
Autokey doesnt have to be on and you dont key it. :)

Ramon
06-02-2004, 07:41 PM
Well, then something funky happened because it's working now. Anyways.:thumbsup:

Ramon
06-14-2004, 06:07 PM
Update:
Back from South Florida and Bone Twist is magically not working again. Ay ya yai !!! :argh:
Here are my steps:
1. While in the bone twist tool, IK off and on frame 0
2. I rotate the yellow cross handle to where I need the pitch to be placed.
3. I then hit the spacebar to cycle down to the rotate tool to see if the pitch has taken to the change I made with the Bone Twist tool and the verdict - no change in the pitch.

What am I doing wrong?

kretin
06-15-2004, 12:11 AM
Bone Twist adjusts the pitch of the child, not the bone you adjust. Not exactly intuitive, but accurate due to the parent coord system.

Dr Dardis
06-15-2004, 01:23 AM
Ahhh, that makes sense Kretin.

RTFM iguess :D

Chris.

Ramon
06-15-2004, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by kretin
Bone Twist adjusts the pitch of the child, not the bone you adjust. Not exactly intuitive, but accurate due to the parent coord system.
Thanks Kretin, I'll check it out.:thumbsup:

SplineGod
06-16-2004, 07:43 AM
Bone Twist adjusts the pitch of the child if you are in parent coord system. If you are in local coord system it adjusts the pitch of THAT bone. Just hit RPR after you do it. Adjusting the pitch in local coords makes more sense to me. :)

Ramon
06-16-2004, 10:10 PM
COOL! Thanks for that info Larry :beer: I could find info on that within the flash content.

Ramon
06-16-2004, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by Dr Dardis

One last thought... Make sure that your bank values correspond in Modeller and Layout. I normally set them in Dstorms Skelegon editor, as this allows you to align the Bank handles to an axis in modeller, on a skelegon by skelegon basis. What Might be happening to you is that you are rotating 110deg in modeller, but your bones bank handles might be different in layout (This will happen if you do NOT adjust the handles in Modeller before converting to Skelegons in Layout, and THEN use "Record pivot rotation to zero the value"). I might be wrong (i don't have LW open to check), but might be an area to look at!

Hope that this helps dude!
Good luck

Chris.

Hello Chris (and anyone else that might know about this)...

Here are a couple of screen shots of what I have been encountering:

http://www.ramonart.com/images/correct_morph.jpg
http://www.ramonart.com/images/Verybad_morph.jpg
http://www.ramonart.com/images/Modeler.jpg
Although my morph is working correctly after using bone twist on the forearm, I can't use joint compensation etc...(not that I need to but it may be useful if needed) because the rot is now utilizing the heading axis rather than pitch (which is the way I originally set it up in modeler).
So, my question is, why is that the corrective morphs are working right but, only after i modify the forearm's axis in layout so that the heading and not the pitch is being rotated?

I hope I am expressing my concerns in an understandible way.
Thanks y'all.

CGTalk Moderation
01-16-2006, 09:00 AM
This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.