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PrayingMantis
01-13-2011, 08:57 PM
Hi all,

It may look like a stupid question but I have a hard time at detailling in photoshop.
I'm painting an orange over and over, but I'm stuck at the detailling stage, even if my painting need improvement I'd like to know how to paint these specific detail from this orange.

It looks like big skin pores, it's not just dot sprayed over, even the shadow change in intensity hue and saturation from dot to dot, and then comes the highlights :D

Is there an "easy" way to do that in photoshop.
Not that I'm lazy but I'm amazed by all the concept designer around who make incredible details and it seems like a breeze for them.

I'd like to hear your thought about this one even if it is pretty basic.

The only way I found is to paint them all one by one, but I'd like to know the concept designer way of doing it, if you got my point.

http://forums.cgsociety.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=158868&stc=1

Alastair
01-14-2011, 08:36 AM
There's no real secret to detailing, none that I know of for now though I hope it exists ; It just takes a lot of patients and concentration. I do paint my details one by one, I usually zoom in around 400 to 500%. Take the reference picture, place it on top of your painting and set it to overlay layer. Just work on shadow and highlights. Shadow being the darker spots and highlights would be the brighter areas. Use hard brush for a darker or more concentrated look, and use soft brush to blend it more around the edges.

Lunatique
01-14-2011, 10:25 AM
Veteran digital artists--especially concept artists, are really clever in the way they customize their brushes. They can create a brush that with a single stroke, will paint a bunch of organically and natural looking leaves of slightly different hue and saturation and shape/orientation, instead of working hard but dumb and paint every single leaf. I get into this in detail in week five of my workshop, where we experiment with all kinds of brush settings and various brushwork styles.

Spend a few hours playing with Photoshop's brush settings. Tweak the scattering, the spacing, the brush shape, the color, opacity, and so on. You can also capture your own brush shapes from photos and other sources and create interesting texture brushes.

But there are always some things that have no shortcut and you simply have to be patient and paint one detail at a time.

halen
01-14-2011, 11:23 AM
Some of it depends what you are after and how do you want to do it. If it needs to be exactly like the reference you could either use the reference, paint over it - or measure (overlaying is considered cheating :twisted: ) and paint every single one of those dots. Probably the only option to satisfy the inner perfectionist and making it "right". :D

Seriously talking - the Lunatique's post about making the brush might be the way to go, painting some of the details with few brush strokes to suggest the surface texture. Just noticed a billboard with similar orange when walked by and took a cell phone image about the texture. It might give one idea for making the brush.

http://www.halen.org/releases/matte/sample.jpg

If other ways than painting are allowed, you might just use orange texture - or if oranges were something rare (thinking this as an concept of things that are not easily or at all available), maybe something close to that - I have for example painted stone wall here which has very similar texture and could be easily modified to orange skin. Quite often use that kind of technique to get the surface details fast (paint the rough, add some with photo textures, fix with masking and painting) - for example buildings, walls, stones, far away forests etc (objects with texture like surfaces) are quite pleasant to do like that.

PrayingMantis
01-14-2011, 12:07 PM
Thanks for yours answers.

Painting details one by one and patiently like you suggest Alastair is the "easy way", at least it is completly understandable for me, just take time and patience (and practice :D).

I think my real lack of knowledge is how to use custom brushes.
I know how to make them from texture and so on, in fact I know how to make "basic" pattern, my biggest concern is color variation. I mean clever color variation.

I tried to use bevel and emboss but I feel like cheating :D and I'm not really fan of the result though.

The purpose of this orange exercice is not to reproduce it exactly, in a photorealistic fashion, I want to learn all the step to make a painting.
I tried to paint landscape, and frankly this orange is simple and is as difficult as a landscape, and it has (almost) everything you need to paint a landscape :)

For the moment when I am painting details for this little orange I'm using a splatter/dot custom brush.
It just splatter little dots all over, and I am changing from time to time the hue/sat/value.
Like you guessed it, it doesn't work well. Mindless painting lead to horrible painting :)

I don't know if I pay too much attention on these details, I have to admit I'm fasicnated by these pores, the way the highlight and shadow produce them, I probably focus too much on it and that's why I can't draw them in an abstract fashion.

In fact I'm almost sure that's my problem :D

My real concern while using brushes is that it's ok to laying down the shadows or holes of these pores, it's done randomly and I have to be careful with my colors.
But after that I can't just randomly layering highlight with the same brush, it will never work unless I'm extremly lucky.
Once the holes are down the highlight need to match them, that's where I'm stuck.

Lunatique
01-15-2011, 04:36 AM
There are lots of ways to skin a digital cat (or orange). Emboss could be done manually, and then you wouldn't feel like you're cheating. Just duplicate the layer, put it under the original, change its value/color to what the highlight should be, and then simply move it a few pixels in the direction that will create the illusion of highlight according to the lighting direction. You can also then duplicate that highlight layer a couple of times and move them in directions that will further perfect the look you want by filling areas that first highlight layer couldn't. You can manually paint or erase back into the highlight layer(s) too to further add variety. This is just one of the many tricks I teach in the workshop, and there a bunch of other very practical tricks like that.

Quadart
01-15-2011, 11:35 AM
Here are a couple of down and dirty, 10 minute oranges I whipped up to show just 2 of the many ways to quickly skin a digital cat, or orange.

Example (1) was done using a custom dot patterned brush and a default soft-round brush.

Example (2) was done all with filters, no painting (the naval was pasted in from example 1). I used the painted base orange that you did and added the Distort/glass filter on it, made a b&w high contrast duplicate layer (in screen mode) of it to use as the highlight. The shadow rim was done with the blending option ‘inner shadow’.

You might want to look into the Photoshop sticky for some tips-n-tricks, and do a google search ‘photoshop tips and tricks’. Also look for brush sets that are available from other artists. You can start a search here in the PS forum for some really useful (and free) brush sets.

Example (1)
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc156/bill_77/orangesteps.jpg

Example (2) *from your post, with the photo on left and your painted base on right
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc156/bill_77/orangetrick.jpg

PrayingMantis
01-15-2011, 03:08 PM
Thank you Lunatic and Quadart, it helps a lot.

I tend to not use that much the tricks from photoshop even if I know some, because I want to tackle down the basic skill in painting before using them, I don't want to use trick to hide my weakness, just to speed my work. But I'm not at this step for the moment.

Quadart: The first orange is awesome, I really love the painterly feel.
I already have custom brushes found at conceptart.org and there, I'm using some and made severals of my own for these pores.
It helps a lot, I have to train more and I'll be able to paint orange over and over.

huK
01-26-2011, 11:55 AM
very interesting thread, i often ask myself the question about cheating
is it ok? is it not ok? dont you guys think that the result counts at all and not the process during the picture was made?
I also asked myself, will art become worthless in the future?
As an example, photoshop developed very fast and the tools became more powerfull with each version
with some guidiance from tutorials everyone can make art very easily now
But is it good or bad? Is it bad to use technology to create stunning pictures?
Compose some pictures together, overdraw them and get an result like a top sci-fi artists?
Isnt it smart to avoid the years of hard practice and just start watching an tutorial about 25 Mn to get nearly the same results...
I dont know about all that... but i guess art will become more and more worthless with time
We maybe should burn our torches now and visit adobe :)

just a litle video (sorry for german site, but video is in english) (http://www.chip.de/c1_videos/Photoshop-CS5-Vorgeschmack-auf-neue-Funktionen-Video_42401190.html)

halen
01-26-2011, 12:10 PM
There is some discussion about and around the subject 'cheating' here:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=166&t=266927


And nice examples Quadart. I was thinking to do something like that also, but those do better than mine. :)

PrayingMantis
01-26-2011, 12:12 PM
I don't think you can achieve the same result as top artist by watching a video tutorial.

Cheating exist in traditionnal art too, if you smudge instead of carefully grading your paper it's a kind of cheat.
There is nothing wrong with that, that was just that I don't want to use cheat to hide my lack of knowledge.
I think it's better to learn art without these easy way and then use them when you master your craft.

But "cheating" will never make you a good artist, if you don't know how to use a technique without cheating you will never have a good result by using trick.
You can't come up with something good if you don't understand what you are doing.

Photoshop is not a magic wand, (even if it got one:D).

And about videos tutorial, I wish there was a really good video about painting in photoshop that clearly explain all the steps.
Even the hidden one, your subconscious thoughts.
That's what is important.
Why do I lay this stroke, what is the color I am seeing (while using a picture to reproduce) and what effect I want to achieve with this very stroke.
Why did I choose the brush I am using.

For the moment the video I watched never explain that, some give you their brushes but you end up with hundreds of brushes without know which does what.

There are tons of video about painting and drawing but none of this kind

If anyone got any video like that, I'm really interested.

huK
01-26-2011, 12:55 PM
Cheating exist in traditionnal art too, if you smudge instead of carefully grading your paper it's a kind of cheat.
There is nothing wrong with that, that was just that I don't want to use cheat to hide my lack of knowledge.
I think it's better to learn art without these easy way and then use them when you master your craft.

But "cheating" will never make you a good artist, if you don't know how to use a technique without cheating you will never have a good result by using trick.
You can't come up with something good if you don't understand what you are doing.

Photoshop is not a magic wand, (even if it got one:D).


i like youre thoughts especially the bold one

btw. i want this vid too :D

@ halen, thanks for the link

Lunatique
01-26-2011, 01:03 PM
No amount of shortcut will give anyone the ability to do what the experienced advanced artists can do. You might be able to mimic the shallow surface treatment, but that's all. It's like all the young pups emulating Craig Mullins and Sparth and Android Jones, but they are just emulating the flash but not the substance behind the work.

No tutorial can turn you into a experience artist with a compelling creative vision and vast knowledge of the fundamental essentials of visual art, or give you the necessary eye-to-hand coordination or muscle memory. A single brushstroke from Richard Schmid contains decades of experience that you would never be able to emulate without having gone through what he did as an artist. You can watch one of his painting DVD's and it may seem simple to you, but as soon as you try it, you'll see immediately that he only makes it look easy, when it's anything but.

Digital may allow some people to cheat--especially when they work extensively with photos. But you know what? Take away their photos and watch them flounder--that's how you separate the men from the boys. Artists worth their salt can draw/paint like demons without looking at a single photo, as well as not needing to reference real life. They can create amazing works of art purely from their imagination and vast experience/memory bank/understanding of the foundations of visual art. This isn't to say that artists who work with photos or from life are inferior, but merely that experienced artists can do this, but those without the experience cannot.


If anyone got any video like that, I'm really interested.
An excellent teacher is the one that explains all the creative, artistic, and technical reasons behind every step of the process, while an average teacher merely demonstrates the steps.

I have a ton of videos like what you're asking for, covering a wide range of topics--from composition, lighting/values, color choices, brushwork, line quality, textures, flexibile/powerful workflow, aesthetic concerns, to everything else like the dangers of overworking an image, but they're all for my workshop, so you'll have to take the workshop to see them. :)

huK
01-26-2011, 01:39 PM
Digital may allow some people to cheat--especially when they work extensively with photos. But you know what? Take away their photos and watch them flounder--that's how you separate the men from the boys.

What about 3D Models in Paintings?
Isnt this a litle bit the same like taking a photo and draw from it?

Lunatique
01-26-2011, 01:50 PM
What about 3D Models in Paintings?
Isnt this a litle bit the same like taking a photo and draw from it?

It depends on if the 3D model is made by the artist or someone else, and it also depends on how honest the artist is about the way the 3D model is used in the artwork.

Of course, the artist can take his own photos too, but what we're talking about here specifically is drawing/painting skills.

PrayingMantis
01-26-2011, 01:51 PM
@Lunatique:
I guess I have to take your workshop :) I like what you said about teachers.

@Huk:
I think you are a little bit too concerned about cheating or not.
Don't waste your time looking for shortcut, you will lose much more time than if you were taking the long road, and in fact the long road is the only way to go :)

halen
01-26-2011, 02:10 PM
.. or how about building a practical model about the subject and taking a photograp from it? Yes - it's cheating if you claim you painted it.

So I agree with lunatique and the rest there that if you use some cheat to cover incompetence then it's cheating (and sometimes very mutch needed to get it fast). If you just use variety of tools to get what you/client want and how do you want to do it and not claiming anything else, then its just the result that matters. There is a difference to be limited by the photos for example and using them to do the stuff.

If the claim that tools make the artist was true then we'd all be out of jobs very soon. To some point this has already happened when "everyone" got the camera, and newspapers started to publish cellphone photos. Some even kicked out the photographers and handed the camera to the writing journalist. Awfull stuff most of the times, but seems to do for some newspapers - at least for now. It is also true that it's not so easy to do stuff if you are taken away your preferred tool. Take away undo, layers, textures, digital brushes and things get at least slower if you are used to do stuff with em. Of course the mentioned skilled artist could do something with or without almost anything.

huK
01-26-2011, 02:36 PM
@Lunatique:
I guess I have to take your workshop :) I like what you said about teachers.

@Huk:
Don't waste your time looking for shortcut, you will lose much more time than if you were taking the long road, and in fact the long road is the only road to take :)

had to paint this now :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v713/spucknapp/thelongtheshort.jpg

.. or how about building a practical model about the subject and taking a photograp from it? Yes - it's cheating if you claim you painted it.
but why, isnt the result the counting piece for an artwork?
if you built the model with youre hands and also took the photo by youreself...
why would you call it cheating, i can understand that the word "paint" is mentioned with drawing formed by imagination but can this also be for digital-painting?
isnt digital painting a new way of creating art with thousands of possibilitys also comprising
drawing from photos and screencaps just as a normal workflow

PrayingMantis
01-26-2011, 03:05 PM
Funny way to illustrate what I said :D I love the photo vs paint.

About what Halen talked about I think it's an other subject, the cheating in this thread was using some kinds of shortcut in your workflow, not claiming something wrong.
The thread you linked talked about this no need to make the same here ;)

halen
01-26-2011, 03:30 PM
^I just agree - and go back to my wacom and try to figure out how to paint properly. :) It makes this thread quite a lot shorter.

huK
01-26-2011, 06:10 PM
ok i missed the point, sorry than :P

dbisme
01-26-2011, 06:51 PM
For the moment the video I watched never explain that, some give you their brushes but you end up with hundreds of brushes without know which does what.

There are tons of video about painting and drawing but none of this kind

If anyone got any video like that, I'm really interested.



This video by John Derry called Photoshop CS5: Painting with the Mixer Brush might be useful for you:

http://www.lynda.com/home/DisplayCourse.aspx?lpk2=65713

FYI, John was one of the original authors of what is now Corel Painter.

Cheers

Lunatique
01-27-2011, 08:10 AM
Here's something I wrote about the usage of references when it was a controversial subject at cgtalk:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=166&t=461830

I think that explains very clearly the difference between the right and wrong way of using references, and the right way and wrong way to present your artwork when references are involved.

Ultimately, if the usage of photos are more of a crutch than a creative tool, then you are cheating yourself. Learn how to draw and paint properly so that you don't become a slave to references.

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