Pro animators - what tools do you use the most?

[NueFoX]

hmms....

Paper.
Pencil.
Maybe an eraser

:thumbsup:

[kemijo]

I'm guessing you only want info from "animator" animators...or character animators...as in not Technical Directors or otherwise?

[KOBALT_KORE]

I'm not really sure what a technical director is - but I was thinking about character animation tools like morph targets, squash and stretch ability, ik, motion curves, different methods for rigging models, etc.
(I'm just throwing around a bunch of terms I've seen in these forums).

[kemijo]

No problem...

The definition does change from shop to shop, but basically I split it up into 3 groups.

Technical directors are sort of a blend of art and tech. A lot of people call them 'hybrid artists' as they have to R&D and execute shots, understand aesthetics and generally make pretty pictures, but they also have to know their software inside out or close, trouble shoot problems or write code, or set up pipeline stuff. TDs are Riggers, Shader writers, FX, so on - I'd consider comp to be TDs as well, but they usually aren't called that for some reason.

To differentiate, artists are people like animators, painters, and modelers. They need to know the least amount of tech to do their jobs. Of course tech helps, as it is computer graphics. Developers/programmers are pure tech - they spend time in front of text editors writing code to make others lives easier. They need the least amount of art background, but it certainly doesn't hurt as it is computer graphics.

So...who do you want to hear from? Most of the tools you described lean towards the Character TD for rigging characters that an animator would animate. Of course in smaller shops someone could easily be doing more than one thing (setting up a character and then animating it themself).

[KOBALT_KORE]

Whoa. I had no idea there were that many different types of jobs (I just assumed the artists rigged their own models and then animated them). Thanks for the explanation :)

I guess the type of person I'd like to hear from would be Character Technical Directors (for the tools they use the most for rigging, etc.) as well as artists that animate (for the tools they use the most - like motion curves, squash and stretch, etc.)

[kemijo]

Hehe, yeah there's a lot to do :)

It all depends on the size of the facility...like I was saying earlier, if you are at a smaller shop you end up wearing many hats, so there may not be that many positions. In larger shops, it's all split up usually.

So...as far as Character TD tools that I couldn't live without (not currently a Character TD but I was, and likely will be again):

- Skeletal system...most characters have one of course. And of course a way to attach geometry to the skeleton.

- Deformation tools...you need a way of changing the shape of a model, usually on top of any skeletal deformation. The common ones are lattices and morph/blend/shape animation tools. Depending on your app, there are many more.

- A way of driving one attribute or channel with another. This is usually accomplished with expressions, direct linking, or referencing/ driving with some arbitrary channel you define. Again, all different in every app. You'd automatically animate most deformers like this.

- IK of course...lots of different types, and a 2D solver (like an elbow) and a 3D one (like a shoulder) are both usually necessary.

- Constraints...this kind of does something similar to the channel referencing mentioned above. It's a way to have one object react or follow another, like constraining the position of one object to another, or constraining a rotate plane or pole vector of an IK chain to an object.

- some sort of 'null' object...a dummy object you can do whatever you want with, like store user-defined channels, or constrain things.

- Scripting! If you have 5 characters, and you set one up, you don't wanna do it again do you? Scripting allows you to automate almost anything.

I'm sure I forgot some things...but that's a lot of it anyway. Hope they'll update somethings for you! Or you could always learn something else that has all this stuff already.

Hope this helps!

[KOBALT_KORE]

Thanks for taking the time to reply kemijo! - This is very helpful :)

I have some questions though:




- A way of driving one attribute or channel with another. This is usually accomplished with expressions, direct linking, or referencing/ driving with some arbitrary channel you define. Again, all different in every app. You'd automatically animate most deformers like this.

By channels, do you mean having something like a library of pre-defined shapes that the animator can choose from? Or is it something that describes the absolute maximum shape a model can take on?




- IK of course...lots of different types, and a 2D solver (like an elbow) and a 3D one (like a shoulder) are both usually necessary.

I've never even heard of solvers, and I couldn't really find anything on them. By looking at your post it would seem that they are just something that describes the range of motion that a bone or joint can move on - for example having a character with an elbow that can only bend 90 degrees and no further. Am I on the right track here?

Thanks again for your help - it's appreciated!
:beer:

[KOBALT_KORE]

*bump*

Would anyone else like to contribute?

[MikeRhone]

From a Maya TD standpoint:
MEL - Im just getting started, and its unbelievably useful.
jsOrientJoinUI.mel - I dont know how I lived without it.
FK/IK Blending - A character without it isnt a character.
Ramp - Useful for everything (except making ramp textures.)
Multiply/Divide nodes, The connection editor - Every TD's Friend.

From the animator in me:

Well laid out characters, with none confusing controls.
TD's who know what Gimbal is and how to set up characters that can avoid "gimbal lock"
Characters without limits: Let your animators decide when too much is too much.
Shift+Alt+FMB+MMB in the graph editor.
Timeline: Your FisherPrice quick and dirty dopesheet.
Locked off attributes: Thank you TD's for properly locking off and hiding attributes that we wont need to key.... Like SCALE on joints.
Characters properly scaled. Thank you modelers and TD's for making sure all characters are correctly in scale to one another. As well as environments.

From the modeler in me:
Thank you MJ, whoever you are, for freely giving out MJPolyTools
Thank you Byron, for developing Soft Selection tools
Thank you Alias, for grow/shrink selections (But please fix the bevel)
Thank you Alias, for Transfer UV's. Thank you Thank you Thank you.

Mike R - TD/Animator/Coffee bitch

[ed209]

The tools I use most while animating are the Graph Editor and the timeline/Dope sheet. Most of my work day deals with manipulating keys and tangents. The ability to easily move, scale and manipulate keys and anim curve's are a must for any animation package.

[KOBALT_KORE]

Thanks Rhonedog and ed209! :)

I've got some questions on things I've never heard of before:

Originally posted by Rhonedog
Ramp - Useful for everything (except making ramp textures.)
...
Multiply/Divide nodes, The connection editor - Every TD's Friend.
...
Shift+Alt+FMB+MMB in the graph editor.


- What do ramps do?
-by nodes, do you mean keyframes? How does multiply/divide nodes work?
-what does shift+alt+fmb+mmb do?


Originally posted by ed209
... The ability to easily move, scale and manipulate keys and anim curve's are a must for any animation package. [/B]

By 'scaling keys' do you mean something like selecting a batch of keyframes and changing the amount of time they take up on the timeline?

-Thanks again guys :D

[MikeRhone]

Kobalt:

Ramps are a node you can create in the hypershade. In its simplest form, it's a gradient "rainbow" from Red->Green->Blue. In its more useful form however, you can use the ramp values to drive anything from FK/IK switches, toon shaders, particles' lifespans, deformers envelopes... the list is endless.

Multiply/divide nodes:

Its one of many nodes that you can plug info in and out of (Like keyframes.) If you had the cogs in a clock mechanism keyframed, and you knew that CogA moved half as fast as CogB, you could set it up so that CogB moved automatically, and at half the speed of CogA.

shift+alt+fmb+mmb:

In the graph editor, its a way of visually spreading out your keyframes so you can get a better look at them. The keys dont move at all, its just the way you can see them.

[KOBALT_KORE]

Thanks for the explanations Rhonedog :)

Any other animators out there that'd like to contribute?

[eek]

F-curve window - nice simple to use big. Accurate curves

Schematic view/exell view - good to handle complex scenes

dopesheet editor- prefebly like a tradition one so you can have layers of animation, backrounds etc, which you can time.

ik controls

Ability to animate with independant axis i.e x,y,z in fcurve

constraints, to lock down individual axis,

expressions,

controllers i.e link controller so you can dynamically link or pin objects through time.

pencils, sketch book,

a storyboard/thumbnail editor would be cool as all mine are stuck on my desk!

I would love the ability to turn off animation curves of objects, so you could animate the body. TUrn off the keys, animate the face then turn back the keys on. like softimage.

Automatic head cam view- to animate the face

etc,etc

eek

[adavies]

'set keyframe', move, rotate and graph editor. pretty much all i use.

[deepinspace]

Blue pencils !!!!!

[KOBALT_KORE]

Thanks guys! :cool:


Originally posted by eek
expressions,



How do expressions and other forms of scripting usually work - is it usually just an empty dialog box where you punch in formulas - or is it usually done in a more visual manner (eg. selecting an object, rotating it a quarter turn and then typing in something like "continue rotation for 270 degrees")?

thanks again :)

[adavies]

expressions?!?! too technical for me :( I prefer to keep my work process as simple as possible. I just get confused when you start getting into things like that, and anyway, your work starts to look too 'clinical' when you make formulae govern how your objects move - everything becomes too perfect - ugh!

[Moo 4.5]

wow cool thread

something i have always wondered is... Ok in the incredibles trailer theres heaps of stuff going on like the stretching of the gloves and boots, and the belly jiggle. Is that something that the animators have to worry about or is it done afterwards.

[KOBALT_KORE]

Originally posted by adavies
expressions?!?! too technical for me :( I prefer to keep my work process as simple as possible. I just get confused when you start getting into things like that, and anyway, your work starts to look too 'clinical' when you make formulae govern how your objects move - everything becomes too perfect - ugh!

What about using them for things like wheels rotating - wouldn't they be fairly useful/time saving there?


Moo 4.5 - that'd be something the animators would do

[adavies]

still too technical. I'm an artist for crying out loud, not a mathematician! :P

[peekoot]

Originally posted by adavies
still too technical. I'm an artist for crying out loud, not a mathematician! :P


still... i believe ignoring it is not an answer... artist don't need to understand differential equations... but some expression for wheel rotating is very useful... and not very hard.. and in the end.. you can always copy/paste it... ;)

[adavies]

well we all work differently. I prefer to control what happens in my scene and do it by hand rather than let the computer animate for me.

[Andy741]

Something that is useful is to have the program able to handle lots of geometry real time. That way you can preview your animation without needing to create an avi or quicktime movie.

IK is very important too for keeping feet from sliding.

[kemijo]

Heh, didn't know this was still going!

Kobalt:

Expressions let you control channels or attributes. They check the input, usually alter it, and give you the output once per frame. You usually start with nothing, and input the code, and you usually build on that and adjust as necessary to make it do what you want. Expressions evaluate once per frame, or make changes over time (make the muscle bulge as the arm rotates). Scripting is usually a once-per-execution thing, for repetitive or large tasks, where nothing happens until you execute the script. (create 1000 feathers, connect them all to this mesh, and link up the various attributes to this controller for animation later). There are tools for doing something and having the app continue for it, like maya's Duplicate With Transform (you make a copy, rotate it 10 degrees...and every copy after that has an offset of 10 degrees).

adavies:
I used to be scared of tech, until I tried it. I am no mathematician, but I had to pick up some math to do the things I wanted to do, and for the most part the computer does the math for you. You just need to know what to expect. There are many things that you simply either would not want to do, or couldn't by hand...I mean die hard animation is great but there is a threshold when procedural animation makes sense. Code does not always make things look "clinical"...a lot of code is written specifically to make things move naturally, or far more natural than you could do by hand.

My favourite tech solutions and automation are tools created for an animator to use. You don't want to animate thousands of feathers by hand. A tool that lets you control large groups would still give an animator control of that (like the feathers in For The Birds). Scripting and expressions don't "animate for you"...if you wrote the code, you are controlling it. Anything repetetive or involving a large number of separate elements...code is perfect, even for character animators. You are using a computer, so you already use a technical tool.

So Kobalt, there's another one...it's kind of vague, but there are many implementations of it. A way to create a tool, or interface, so developers and TDs...or artists!...can build custom tools into the program.

[KOBALT_KORE]

adavies, peekoot, kemijo: Thanks for discussing the pros and cons of expressions/how they work. I'll suggest adding them, but it's good to know that people might run into problems with the math (especially since about 1/3 of the user base appears to be in their early teens, and don't have a great grasp of math yet).

kemijo: The creator of the app has stated before that he might add plugin support - but only after all the animation features are in/ some other stuff.
The author also recently released a description of the file format, and there are about 26 programs that are designed to be used in conjunction with Anim8or - particle generators, water physics simulations, heightfield generators, etc.

Andy741: yep, anim8or can handle lots of geometry realtime (depending on how fast your comp is/ what video card you have), and I know that the guy who programs it wants to put IK in.



Thanks again guys! :)

Any other animators out there that wanna speak up?

[adavies]

seriously, by the time its taken me to write some code to get it looking the way i want i could have animated by hand and it would look better. take your example of a car wheel. expressions are fine if the car is moving at constant speed but what if it speeds up and down and turns corners, then it becomes a bit more complicated, and how difficult is it to go to a frame and type in a number in the channel box to turn the wheel yourself. i just prefer a more hands on approach and as somebody once said, why do you want to be an animator if you don't have the patience to animate and often, shortcuts are the longest way of doing something. just bite the bullet and get down to it and it'll be done before you know it.

[SheepFactory]

I totally agree with adavies.

Background stuff you can automate , but i always prefer the main focus\character of the scene fully hand animated.

The second you leave things to a computer , it looks like computer animation.


One of my instructors who is an animator at pixar showed us some progression shots from nemo and he said he spent a full day just getting the fishes fin animation to look right. Most people would just tie that to a softbody and consider it done , than again most animation looks crap :) (no offense to anyone)


I think a happy compromise is a automation system fully controllable by the animator. I agree that i would not like to animate 4000 feathers on a bird by hand , but i want to animate the key furs by hand than the software can fill in the rest taking into account my hand animated feathers.

Ok its 3 am , i'll stop rambling :)

[AndyBa]

I use Character Studio for all my character animations! :)
And it doesn't have curves. :(
Or expressions. :\

[drawallday]

I am very interested in the world of 3D computer animation and would love to dive into real time animation (electronic gaming) or rendered 3D computer animation. Everything seems fine with me except that I would like to add more 3D animation to my demo reel. The only thing that is slowing me down is the frustrating rigging/skinning process. How do you professionals do the rigging and skinning and have the characters move without the annoying distortions (especially in real time animation with low poly models)?

[AndyBa]

Drawallday, In which part of your character do you have these anoying distortions? :)

[drawallday]

Check my other thread about the rigging issue

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=934954#post934954

thanks ;)

[KOBALT_KORE]

Originally posted by adavies/Sheep Factory

True about most automated stuff being obvious...
Maybe if they're not that necessary/time saving, I won't suggest them. I doubt anyone will be trying to do something like animate 10000 feathers on a bird in a free program anyway...

[i]Originally posted by AndyBa
I use Character Studio for all my character animations! :)
And it doesn't have curves. :(
Or expressions. :\
What version is that?!



New Question:

Lots of people here have mentioned motion curves. I was wondering what the most common/handy way to display them in a program is.

-Do most programs just show the motion curves for the currently selected object for the whole length of that scene?

-Do they just display an object's motion curve between two selected keframes?

-Or do most programs just throw all the motion curves for all objects in a scene at you at once and then let you turn some on and off (like layers in Photoshop)?

What's handiest/most common?


Thanks guys :beer:

[ronny]

Something I wish maya had was the ability to display motion curves relatively rather than absolutely. I guess programmers thought animators would actually be interested in seeing the actual values of your keys rather than the shape of your curve. For example, it would be nice to display all your curves on top of each other without having to pan around and zoom in/out just to see where your translate X keys are in relation to your rotate Y.

One tool that I use A LOT is the insert key function. I have it customized so that when i hold down the "N" key I can just plot my keys in my graph editor. This is very important to me because i love going spline crazy.

-ronny

[AndyBa]

I use character studio 3.
I know that 4 should have curves or something similar?
But we don't have it in the office... :cry:

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