- 3Dsmax 5 - ...more features

[TheDevil[DK]]

---

edit 1:

- Scaling a single bone in a chain (in local axiz)...without affecting the other bones.

---

Edit 2: A morph modifyer that works a little different..here it is work this way:
instead of 60 copies of a head...It could be cool this way:

Add Morph+ modifyer...

then it have two modes:
- normal mode
- sub mode

in normal mode you set the wighting of the heads, jump between keys (over time).

in submode, you click new target (the head is created from the original _in_ the modifyer...not as a sepererate modifyer...) ...so it is basen on the orinal mesh (I think that will use less memory, also muts easier to import).
And of cause:
- copy - paste facial expressions to other targets.
- soft selection a region (ex. mouth) and copy - paste it to another target.

^often several targets looks allmos the same, so the copy paste funktion could be cool.^

[TheDevil[DK]]

Edit 3:

Partikkels spawn partikkels (two situations:)

- ...when a partikkel hit another object, it spawn new partikkels in the opposite direction of the original partikkelsystem.
Ex. good for a machine gun shooting on wall, when the bullets hits the wall...the new patikkelsystem create the dust effect...

- just the normal way partikkel spawn partikkels... ex: some fragments from something blownup...have another perikkel system on with som Afterburn / fire

[TheDevil[DK]]

edit 4: better partikkel shader controle.... velocity and size etc.

[butterfly_fx]

instead of spaming your own thread check after Max 5 beta that got leaked...hard part is to get it to check the features...

Don't ask me, i haven't it.

[goldenmantis]

:p

When could we get it?

[tAstyBITs]

I got a feature that would be kool.

a push modifier that pushs concaved verts in a negitive normal direction and convexed verts in a positive normal direction. This will be good for exagerating the cracks and curves of your model quickly. Also it would be nice to be able to select verts on whether their convexs for concaved.

[Iain McFadzen]

Why not just use a really small negative relax?

[tAstyBITs]

hey that works. kinda cool to. it dosen't push the verts on their normals but it does exaggerate cracks and bumps by adjusting the egde lengths.:bounce:

[TheDevil[DK]]

well...I just started posting on the discreet forum insted... :bounce:
..and I've seen the 3dsmax 5 on another workstation running...had a few minutes testing :scream:

- csPolytools have the " Push vertex along normals " ...thinks that is a good one to

[tAstyBITs]

? Max already can push verts on their normals

Where the screen shots that where posted a month ago true?

[TheDevil[DK]]

dooh...ofcause...

jus Move there local axis

[Reality3D]

Pixelfuk: Yes, there were true(the 4-1-2002 screenshots)

[TheDevil[DK]]

yebs...all screenshots where true...the developer team have good humor IMO :beer: :applause: :bounce: :eek:

[El_Zendor]

Hey Martin,

When you're drawing splines you can pan the viewport by hitting 'I'. (I hope I understood your post correctly)

El Zendor

[tAstyBITs]

Awsome, max 5 is true. Hey I just checked Discreets sight for any news about Luna and I didn't find any. Does anyone have any idea when Max 5 will show itself to the public?

Inquiring minds what to know.:hmm: :blush:

[Reality3D]

I think at Siggraph(21-26 July)

[TheDevil[DK]]

In a short interview with one of the developers...he said it will be released late 2002

:beer: < Me :scream:

[wizard]

well i would love to see max five's new features but you see there has always been some problems with 3dsmax since 3ds max version 1 that is it has always been : very unstable ,can't open a fairly complex scene it would simply crash and exit for no reason many bugs .expressions sometimes produce painstaking
abnormal results while working with skinning specially physique u see the skin pop or the head simply bursts during animation and its slow . animation function curves need alot of improvement..
i believe they should look into these before moving on with the new features ... i hope they have in max 5....believe me i haven't noticed half of these unstable and critical features until i went freelance in a production pipeline ...simply put it the program
couldn't handle the pressure...

[zkydz]

Never had those problems wiz.

zkydz

[ilasolomon]

- When creating splines: be able to edit old vertex positions and pesier tangents while spline drawing is in progress...

seems you'v some experiments with old AUTODESK 3DSTUDIO!
it has this features! :) haha it also could pan in viewport while
drawing splines, oh, what nice days...

[ilasolomon]

Never had those problems wiz.

well, everyday that i open max & work, it crash in a new way
& proves it's not a stable app.
try to handle a scene with more than 1million polygon, huh...
a million polygon scene is nothing in industry. it ****s, but i
love it!
damn...it sometimes destory my scenes! UNSTABLE.

[zkydz]

Don't get me wrong, i've had crashes. But, I seem to have seen it due to plug-in problems, asking MAX to do something counter to it's internal logic or just plain boneheadedness. MAX (and any other program out there) will crash, but it's never been an impediment to my work or personal projects. I run MAX for days on end. Guess I just must be the lucky one.
z

[xzevlin]

Max crashes on me occasionally, but it's never come to a point of frustration (except one time with a buggy plugin, but once that was deleted, I was fine). I don't usually deal with scenes with millions of polys, but I'm regularly over 500,000 without a problem.

I've never had too many crashes or problems dealing with skin or physique either. When I first loaded Max on XP Pro, it hung a few times during skinning, but I've done a bunch of characters since and there've been no problems. Max is one of the most stable programs amongst my graphics apps.

[TheDevil[DK]]

- the crashes - mostly plugins and uncompatible hardware IMO...my 3dsmax doesn't crach ofter (one time month...or less)
The solution about crashing files is not a problem in 3dsmax anymore...and have never bin a problem IMO. Just understand to use the different savefunktions in a good combination...
1) Turn on Autobackup (a good idear is to set it to 9 backupfiles & a 3 minutes interval between the backups...in preferences)
2) Learn the Hold/fetch (in Edit)
3) use Save Increment (automatic saves your files in this order: cow01.max, cow02.max, cow03.max, etc. ) use it often...

If you use all those function in a rational way...I'll promis you that you'll never loss more that maximum 6 minuttes of work !!!!


- in skinning, just remember to use the skining on one mesh only per system (eg. I used two mesh on a skelet...copy'd the envelops from one skin modifyer to the other and it crashed... the I attached the two mesh together and it worked fine from then of)

-one thing more that is bugging me is that the manipulator Slider isn't born with a Linier controller !!!

[Phobia4]

I just installed the beta, and it looks awesome!!!

:buttrock: :buttrock: :buttrock: :buttrock:

me=happy:)

[fred_bock]

I'm very pleased to know that max5 is going to be released !!
the bugs.... my photoshop had a bug !! this plug-ins that we find in the net are the main cause for these problems !! cannot blame the program...:buttrock: :buttrock: :buttrock:

[tobalno3]

max5 !!!!!!!!

[ilasolomon]

u r lucky, or...i'm unlucky! but max is locky!

[butterfly_fx]

Originally posted by Phobia4
I just installed the beta, and it looks awesome!!!

me=happy:)

well i'm kinda disapointed from what i saw yesterday...What discreet done is integrate scripts (shame not even all functions of those scripts are built in, or they are really well hidden...for example where is the divide_2 divide_3 and CS polytools create poly from vertices or dissolve?) and copying maya?

what is this lame rotate tool? why the other gizmo wasn't good enough??? at least if they copy maya copy it GOOD not doing fancy crappy stuff! maya manipulator is still WAY better and clear all in one easy to use...

Also what the hell is wrong with the new cut tool that add edges everywhere when you cut in middle of polys?? For me it seems it's not real polys...once again maya cut tool is better and doesn't add all those fancy useless edges and cut in polys without messing the mesh in max you have to clean after you made a shape...it's also alot harder to crate a nice shape like it add edges constantly and most of the time on your "path"... ****y.

I didn't saw any other things hat much but from what i saw it's another not that great update and GI alone won't help me being enthusiast about this upcomming release...or i miss something in this one.

Copying maya isn't what i want to see in max, or why should we use a copy when you can have the original?

[tAstyBITs]

phobia4 I've got one word for you...


SCREENSHOTS!!!!!!!!

If you've got beta, give me data, screenshots that is.


-butterfly_fx- I've always thought maya manipulator was okay not great, and maya cut tool is weak at best.

you be ill'n and max be chill'n.

:airguitar

[TheDevil[DK]]

-

[tAstyBITs]

:buttrock: :eek: :drool:

Wow. Real time radiosity. Pretty.

Do max 4 plugins work for max 5?



I'd like to thank -TheDevil[DK] for your screen shot.

[TheDevil[DK]]

freeware plugins:

uzife_R4.dlu - max crash on use

greeble.dlm - np

Cubify.dlm - crash on use

PTexture.dlt (Particle velocity texture) - np

TinyCounter.dlu - np

- - - -
NP - No problem

[TheDevil[DK]]

thanks...also very fast rendering...I'm only impressed

[Phobia4]

i have it since yesterday, haven't had much time to check it out, but here are some screenshots:

http://phobia4.netfirms.com/max54.gif
Here you see the new trackview, now called "function curve editor", as you see now accesible from the timeline


http://phobia4.netfirms.com/max51.gif
The material editor. With it's own menu bar & the new
translucency shader (looks very primitive too me at this stage,
maybe it's gonna be improved).



http://phobia4.netfirms.com/gitest.jpg
My first very quick GI test (noise=jpg compression)
The gi is ok, but i don't think it can compete with brazil(& other plugs) yet.......

if you wanna see something specific let me know
:)

[TheDevil[DK]]

-

[ambient-whisper]

butterfly_fx

you would be surprise how many of those things are actually from houdini and mirai and not maya ;)

[Mahlon]

Phobia4,
Could you tell us anything about the "Character" Menu item on the menu bar? Any advancements concerning bone set-up, skinning, rigging or NLA.

Thanks
M.

[tobalno3]

okay...the renderer in max5 definitly got stepped up a notch; however, what i want to know is how does it compare to one of the most badass renderers out there, messiah:render.

projectmessiah.com (http://www.projectmessiah.com)

for those of you that don't know the messiah:renderer used to be the ARNOLD renderer. you can download animations (avis) of the ARNOLD renderer in action here: pepeland (http://www.3dluvr.com/pepeland/ANIMATA%201%20.htm)

so in short the messiah:renderer is the entire ARNOLD render package plus an infinite amount of additions.

[wizard]

cool screenshots ..as one of the members said i would also like to
know if there are any enhancements to character animation ..bones..ik NLA specially that ....and if there are any improvements to those function curves ..or even flex ??!

[wizard]

by the way they shoudn't have bothered themselves in putting radiosity features in the software there are already tons of plugins out there which handle gi very well they should spend the effort on other important features in max like puttng a good NLA system and improving character animation ....oh well maybe they have i guess we'll just wait and see..

[TheDevil[DK]]

looks like most light reatures is taken from 3dsmax Viz

[Reality3D]

Morpher->now has Progressive morphing(haven't see other differences)

Skin->"powerful" paint system with pressure sensitive options,weight table(like comet script) and can save and load envelopes. There are the same 3 deformers(morph angle and joint)

IK->New ik solver(ik spline). I didn't get it to work, maybe i'm stupid or isn't working now

NLA->I was searching the nla system, but i didn't find it. But there is character system(the new character menu) that does
similar things(but i think nothing to compare to a real nla system). Basically you define de objects inside the character and define a initial pose. You can animate the character and save the animation then load the animation file, or merge it with the one created with some "cool" options

Graph editor. The graph editor has some cool features. One of them is to draw the curves with a pen(like curves in photoshop) and the graph editor inside the timeline(like messiah::studio). I'm not a fcurve master editor, but i think they are now good and flexible

Flex modifier looks like exactly the same as version 4. The same softbody options and same solvers(maybe speed optimized who knows)

Things regardind the renderers. I think they have the toolset of viz(all the photometric lighting system) and the radiosity
of Lightscape plus a strange skylight with a lightracer global ilumination system. The raytracer itself looks like the old rayfx of blur developers(now splutterfish). I don't know if it's
evolutionated of it's the same, but they even include their ink material(check http://www.blur.com/blurbeta the rayfx section). At least the material includes de anisotropic and oren nayar shader(forget fuzzy reflections
and that similar stuff).
The translucent shader hmm, looks like a fake fake fake :D
The material editor it's near the same, with some lightscape options, advanced ilumination overrides and a viewport shading
option(not tested). The maps are the same, the same ugly procedural ajjj. Forget a real node based material editor
Schematic view looks nearly the same. Pathetic :)
There are some more controls regarding exposure
The atmospheric effects are the same(include Dust Devil at least!!)
The particle systems in a first look are the same, with no changes in interface and features
There is a layer system(the same as viz i think), but in a first look I prefer the rez layer script :).Ahp, the layer toolbar
is hidden in the tab panel.
The wiring system looks the same. There is no option(if i remember ok) to do multiwiring at once.
There are some new importer exportes to Lightscape and kaydara filmbox

Post your discoveries and sorry for the english

That's all folks

[Mahlon]

Thanks.

M.

[LFShade]

Hmm. Almost everything in these screenshots and feature lists already exist in Max through plugins and scripts, many of which are free. I sincerely hope the folks at Discreet stop throwing more crap on the pile that is Max and deliver on the rumor of a complete rewrite for version 6.

Max 5 == very dissapointing so far:(

[Reality3D]

I think you are right LFShade, and they should drop the price or include stability in the pack :)

Unwrap UV has new options like lightwave's atlas, the interaction with the uv's is a lot faster, and a lot of baking things into texture are included.

[pluMmet]

can someone with a beta comment on the improvments to PolyObject (tools and such.)

[markdc]

How about a price reduction like Maya and Lightwave?

[johnny_riptide]

Question for those with the Beta:

Can you set up a multi-pass render with the Render Elements rollout while using the new radiosity and GI renderer?

By the way, is there a way to do a multi-pass render (diffuse, specular and reflection) with VRay or Brazil?

[xynaria]

Originally posted by LFShade
Hmm.
Max 5 == very dissapointing so far:(


Hey .. these guys have been working their asses off for 18 months now.. surely there's some really cool must have new features and all the faults have finally been addressed!!.....

Opps sorry .. forgot we were talking about Discreet and Max.

:scream: :bounce: :bounce: :beer:

[Reality3D]

Originally posted by johnny_riptide
Question for those with the Beta:

Can you set up a multi-pass render with the Render Elements rollout while using the new radiosity and GI renderer?

By the way, is there a way to do a multi-pass render (diffuse, specular and reflection) with VRay or Brazil?

In a simple test I did it worked(with lightracer). It has the same render elements plus an ink and paint pass


>can someone with a beta comment on the improvments to >PolyObject (tools and such.)

There are included most of the the meshtool script, grow inset ring loop connect divide edges(is interactive), a new cut tool more like than knife of lightwave, extrudes from vertex, reagrupation in panels of the most existing tools and i think that's all.(The soft Selection panel interface have changed but only the graph, you cannot do anisotropic selections or things like that)

[Mc Kabeza]

Anybody know´s if max is going to move to other platform, or operating sistem?


mac Os 10?
Linux?

[tAstyBITs]

I can't imagine using 3d sotware and having only one mouse button.

:surprised :hmm: :eek:

[Mc Kabeza]

you can use a tree button mouse in maya in mac os X i guess!

[Ed Lee]

Originally posted by brian_dlm
How about a price reduction like Maya and Lightwave?

Did you read the announcement from Discreet? They're keeping their price and not drop. I've decided not to upgrade to 5 cuz it was like $900.00 from version 3 to 4. That price may have changed. With the price I paid for 1.2 to the last upgrade, and everything in between plus plug-ins I had to buy in order to get a good result out of Max...I could have put a down payment on a house. My fault. I should have stuck with LW, and now with price drops from other softs like Maya, Softimage, etc. I can't figure out exactly why Max peeps are being stubborn?

I migrated to Maya cuz it was within my price range and it was a good move. Max on the other hand - if they want to be around and not lose customers to the other software makers they should seriously rethink their marketing tactics.

Ed--

www.edleeart.com

[tAstyBITs]

Good Mac's need more that one mouse button to use a 3d program effectively.


Hey ever since Pc's started to compete with Sgi machines Maya found themselfs with no choice but to cut their prices ( this is my opinon). This is good. I bet discreet is stuck in a contract and they can't lower their price just a hunch, but the pressure is on.

I really like Max. it has more tools for poly modeling than any other.

I was stunned with what I saw in Maya LE, weak poly modeling tools, only three types of snaps and none of them are the one's I'd use. I guess you have to use the nurbs tools to do anything with Maya. Unless your using Nurbs or scanning in sculptures I don't know why anybody would want to use Maya for Modeling. I went to a Maya presentation at ArtCenter to help me get some gerneral knowlege. It seems they recommend learning Mel scripting in order to get full use out of maya. I wasn't really looking forward to becoming a programer so I could get features Max already has.

I've played with Maya and found I like Max better, better interface, more options. But I sure love being able to quickly paint on hair or grass or trees that's alot of fun. I played with lightwave and found I like Max better. Lightwave has the worst user interface of all the programs i tried, though some of the best work I've seen comes from Lightwave. I've used Rhino and I like it, it's user interface is better than Maya's and Lightwaves, but not Max. Maybe I've just used Max for to many years and have to much of a bias, but that's my opinon. Most of the work I do is just modeling no animations or effects.

I can undestand the money point of view. Max is under lots of pressure.


:eek:

[Mikkel Jans]

Maya has the best poly tools out there.. You just have to download alot of plugins and then i bet you can't mention a single poly tool in Max that Maya dosen't have. And Maya also has many poly tools which many other 3D programs like Max do not have. And also remember that Maya Poly Tools are Node based which gives almost every poly tool alot more control.
And with Maya MEL it's very easy to make you own tools.
So i wont say that Mayas poly Tools are weak.. They are some of the best out there.


Max 5 GI plugin looks nice if it is as fast i have heard it is. But as someone said before.. Many of the new tools already exsist with plugins. But again it's only a Beta. Alot can change.

About the price.. I still laugh thinking that Maya cost less then Max ;). I'm sure Discreet will lower the price as soon as they can... They have to and im sure they are going to.

[eek]

Im waiting for Max 6 -- (complete rewrite!!! really?)

eek!

[Reality3D]

complete rewrite plz, complete rewrite plz :p
When max 5 ships they should lower the price or put reactor and character studio in the pack

[Steve Green]

Reactor will be included according to an e-mail I had from my Max Dealer.

These are the other features mentioned.

"New Character-based animation management system including a Weight Table for Skin assignments, Spline IK, Progressive Morphing, a Dope Sheet Editor, and vastly improved Function Curve editing tools.

Next generation gaming wysiwyg environment that includes support for DirectX 8 and 9, Normal Map Rendering, and a P/V Shader Creation Toolkit.

Radiosity (Lightscape engine) and Advanced Rendering Solutions such as Toon Shading, Translucency, Area Light Shadows, and Texture Baking, and a method for simulating Hi-Resolution scenes on low resolution geometry (awesome for Game Artists)

Full backward file compatibility and a non-destructive SDK, which enables 3ds max 4.2 plugins to run without a recompile.
Workflow Enhancements with a new Layer Manager, Improved External References, and Named Selection Set Management "

I would hope improvements to particles as well, since the guy who wrote Particle Studio is on the Development team, as well as improvements to UV editing and integration of Meshtools.

Late July was mentioned as a release date.

- Steve

[TheDevil[DK]]

[i]

I was stunned with what I saw in Maya LE, weak poly modeling tools, only three types of snaps and none of them are the one's I'd use. I guess you have to use the nurbs tools to do anything with Maya. Unless your using Nurbs or scanning in sculptures I don't know why anybody would want to use Maya for Modeling. I went to a Maya presentation at ArtCenter to help me get some gerneral knowlege. It seems they recommend learning Mel scripting in order to get full use out of maya. I wasn't really looking forward to becoming a programer so I could get features Max already has.


:eek: [/B]

you can paint with freehand tools

[joconnell]

Originally posted by tobalno3
so in short the messiah:renderer is the entire ARNOLD render package plus an infinite amount of additions.

I wouldn't get caught up in marketing hype in this case, Messiah bought a version of arnold a long time ago and did indeed add more features into it but it doesn't take away from the fact that it is an old version of the renderer - Wait till Arnold itself comes out for a proper look...

[tAstyBITs]

TheDevil-

I think it was called artisian. It lets you select a tree type and then you just paint it onto a surface and suddenly you have a forest of tree's. Maya has quite a large library of things to paint with, it's very cool.

[tAstyBITs]

Mikkel Jans-

I'll have to see it to believe it.

But if you compare Max's and Maya's modelers with out extra plugins max has the better poly modeler hands down.

And from what I hear about Max 5 max is even better.



:airguitar :bounce:

[Mikkel Jans]

The screen shots i have seen from Max 5 and it's new poly tools are tools which Mayas has haved in long time.

And if you compere them both without plugins then Maya is still ahead.
Such a tool like Split Polygon is 10 times better then maxes Cut.. Split Polygon kan do alot more then you think.. It's just a matter of knowing your hotkeys. And it's the same with many other tools in Maya.

Remember that you get a Node from everything you do in Maya. This makes sure that almost every poly tool in Maya allways can do a little more then Maxs... Like Connect Edges kan Slide from Edge to Edge.. So can Loop Split.. And many others.

Mayas Poly Tools are aheard of many other packeds.

[TheDevil[DK]]

Originally posted by PixelFuk
TheDevil-

I think it was called artisian. It lets you select a tree type and then you just paint it onto a surface and suddenly you have a forest of tree's. Maya has quite a large library of things to paint with, it's very cool.


nope... Freehand tools is for 3dsmax, and you can paint whatever you like...
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/maxevangelists/scripts.htm



and some additional brush stuff (this server where down right now :)
http://maxres.vi2.com/

[tAstyBITs]

Sorry but you can't even snap to the middle of a edge, you can't cutt across multiple edges you have to click one at a time. In max I could slice a plane though a object, cutt across the centers of edges, interactive chamfering on edges. move them along their normals, move a selected group along their normals, plus alot more. Maya's poly tools aren't that developed.

I'm still learning Maya but the poly tools don't impress me.

[TheDevil[DK]]

the Max. vs. other 3d is a off topic, please do it by mail then ;)
this is about max 5 features and nothing else :D

[tAstyBITs]

TheDevil

I know what your talking about I've got freehand tool, it nice but artisan is much diffrent. I'ts a library of tree's, grass, bushes, different types of hair, thousands of items, even paint effects. You can build a landscape in five minutes and then animate it with wind blowing the grass and leaves in another minute. It's like having Vue 4 and painter 7 built into freehand tools. Oh you can also do particals and partical effects with artisan. I have to say it's the only thing that impresses me about Maya.

[Mikkel Jans]

I hate that Max cut tool dosen't snap to the edges.. You need to keep changing wheter you want to snap to Vertex or Edge.. Split Polygon can do them both at ones.. And you can allways change the posistion of the new vertices with Split Polygon even After you have split you edges.. And you can snap to the middle of the edge.. Mayas doen't have slice plane by defualt but it has in Plugins.. And You can cut acreoss the center of the edges... And Beveling work interaktivly like everything else in Maya.. And the Bevel does have even more control then Maxs Chamfer... And you can move along Normal...
It seem to me that you don't know Mayas poly tools good enough yet.

Ok now it's my turn ;)..

Can Max make Loop Face Split? ( Not the same as Edge Loop Split )
Can Max Paint where the object should Reduce in Polygons?
Can Max Extrude and Chamfer Vertex with interaktive Slide?
Can Max Connect Edges or Vertices WITH interaktive Slide?
Can Max select Vertices/Edges/Faces CONTAINED by ( Not the same as Convert )
Can Max Poke Faces?
Can Max Wedge Faces ( Comeing in Max 5 )
Can Max Extrude Faces/Edges WITH an Move/Rotate/Scale/Normal Handle all in one )
Can Max control the Conunity of Smoothness.

I'm sure i have forgot something.. And in generel you will find Mayas Poly Tools have more funktions becouse it's node based.. You can only do 1 thing interaktive for each poly tool in Max.. Maya gives you a node so there allways alot of thing you can do interaktive from the node.

[tAstyBITs]

I'd like to comment but it's off topic.

[butterfly_fx]

and then lightwave users will come say that LW owns em all and is the best modeller out there =P

[TheDevil[DK]]

blah... MS Paint is the best...

well the cut tool in max 5 isn't the same as in max 4, have a new funktion :)

[bologna]

I haven't seen Max5 yet, but will be going to Siggraph this year. Hopefully they will be showing it. I have heard rumors that there are a bunch of new tools for the polys, which will be great.

I am more interested in the animation portion. As it is right now, our pipeline consists of both Max and Maya. We mostly use Max for poly modeling because it is more interractive than Maya. If Max gets in the same tools as the Meshtools scripts, that will seal the deal for modeling.

Maya has much better animation. Max has a hard time with overshoot. I realize that there is a script out there to correct the problem, but it's not interractive, therefore a slowdown. If Max's animation gets as good as or better than Maya, we will probably switch over to Max almost completely. Especially if it's true about Reactor! Maya's dynamics are great, but Reactor is blazing fast. Plus we would be getting soft, rigid, cloth, rope, and fluid dynamics. Pretty sweet.

[TheDevil[DK]]

well I hope the buy Kelsius cloth because the reactor sucks on doing cloth simulations.... else I also love the reactor !!

[TheDevil[DK]]

- sorry there is not space enougth on my server...

[kandyman]

now that is one fcuked up teapot.

[Ed Lee]

Originally posted by PixelFuk
Mikkel Jans-

I'll have to see it to believe it.

But if you compare Max's and Maya's modelers with out extra plugins max has the better poly modeler hands down.

And from what I hear about Max 5 max is even better.



:airguitar :bounce:

You know...I used to use Max at Blur, and thought the EditPoly had some nice features. But, I still needed a plug-in like MeshTools which is a derivitive of Nendo. And it made it even better. Comparing Max's Poly toolset to Maya's is like comparing Maya's NURBS to Max. Maya's Poly toolset is not as developed, but with the new Bonus Game toolset and Paint Tools, if one has the imagination they can get around the problem of Maya's rather weakness in that part of the program.

Another thing, the Blur peeps were always coming down on Maya, in fact on everything else except Max. What is it with these people? I use just about everything to get the job done, I'm not loyal to any soft. It basically comes down to person's preference.


Ed--

www.edleeart.com

[Mikkel Jans]

I'm about to make a Script that can do everything that Meshtools in Max can do and even better because you can Slide from Vertex to Vertex with ConnectVertex and ConnectEdges.

[Mikkel Jans]

And i can't see why Maxs Poly tools are any better?

[TheDevil[DK]]

Jans and me are both from denmark...and this max vs. maya war never seems to stop... So finish it here... do your own thread ;)

[pluMmet]

devil/dk- one thing i didn't see in that laps video was divied and connect...there are however many new polyObject tools which at this point i can't see what i'd use them for. There was alot of info in that video combined with it being too small to make out what buttons were hit which confused me...


anyway thanx!

[bugboy]

hey!
im new in this forum, but i see that s very active!
so well, im working in this proyect, max luna and the enginers boss, Charly, told me that i can now say some things about max 5
anyway i imagine that everybody saw the modelling video so there is not a lot about it.
well, here it is:
max 5 have the ability to allow cg character animators to generate automaticaly ant faced aliens, with not a lot of problems like anterior versions.
u will install your new version of max in a commodore amiga, but you need a diskette unity, please dont try to install it from the datasset. it will cause severe problems.
well we have a cafe break meeting now, but ill send you any news that i have.
thanx.

[Mc Kabeza]

bugboy>

let my tell you something

you can model ant faces in max 4.

if you download a script called antgenerator at www.scriptnosense.com you have all the function included in the new version of max

see you

[hombremalhecho]

I don´t know whats the point in ant faced aliens.
They have always been like the teapots and boxes.
Basical morphologics of the main spatial languaje.
How do you think that structural space, between different masses
in three dimensions could be understood by a human or machine without those elements.
We are all limitated for dimensions and the way we perceive them.
But I pretend to go beyond these limits.
My dream is a world were anything, from extruded textes to bee faced aliens or even robots, could be done without using those oppresive and fascist ant faces and teapots.
the ones willing to join me for this brave adventure can join me with a simple little gesture of resistence among the machinery that haves our souls under this iron fist.
If you are to take the solidary path.
The next time you model something, even if it is just a cube or if we are talking about peter parkers alter ego.
Please don´t use any ant face nor teapot to do your job.
It may be the easy way, but is not the right one.

[Fnkymnky]

Why must we fight over software superiority?

Everything's relative to the artist; there is NO single best 3D package.

Usage decisions should be based on practicality, not emotions. Use whatever gets the job done.

And stop arguing! For every Max freak, there's a Maya freak, a Lightwave freak, a Softimage freak, etc. There will always be someone who disagrees with you, and you're not gonna change their minds.

Remember (political correctness be damned): 'Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics--even if you win, you're still retarded.'

[markdc]

Originally posted by Fnkymnky

Remember (political correctness be damned): 'Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics--even if you win, you're still retarded.'

Hilarious!

[gogofast]

I want to know when will it be published.

[Chico]

Remember (political correctness be damned): 'Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics--even if you win, you're still retarded.'

Damn this a a bloody funny thread..!!!

Hey I checked out the antgenerator plugin and its great. The boss was thinking of using and for a few up and coming projects.:thumbsup:

Though I must say I question the origins of the beta you guys aare all using...:curious:

[Chico]

I've been looking for the G.I. stuff but I can't find it. Can anyone tell me how to turn that suff on?

Surly the moderators at the discreet max Beta forum could help you with something like this..? Is it not in the beta help files..?

Humm really strange...Ill foward this onto them and see if they can help..OKay..?

[ambient-whisper]

Humm really strange...Ill foward this onto them and see if they can help..OKay..?

lol!! :D u go man! :D ahha.

[Chico]

PIXELFUK :I got a version without help files, sorry.

Hey that sux. But it is strange. Id have thought that discreet would have givin you at least a basic doco on the way it works.

Nevermind, Im sure they will follow this up soon enough...any one else having problems with their beta's of Luna..?:hmm:

[Chico]

Hey good to hear...:thumbsup:

I guess you are on the team for modeling or some other aspect of the beta test ... right...



:hmm:

[ManInScaryMask]

Of course most of these people are on the beta team, but Discreet doesn't know that. :o)

Dumb Fuk...

[Chico]

Anyone here know what this means..?:hmm:

[Reality3D]

Yes, an admin with rights can see your ip that has benn logged

[genesis max]

Why must we fight over software superiority?Everything's relative to the artist; there is NO single best 3D package.

Usage decisions should be based on practicality, not emotions. Use whatever gets the job done.

And stop arguing! For every Max freak, there's a Maya freak, a Lightwave freak, a Softimage freak, etc. There will always be someone who disagrees with you, and you're not gonna change their minds.

Remember (political correctness be damned): 'Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics--even if you win, you're still retarded.'

I don't think that any 3d software is superior,and I don't think Max is superior to Maya, but we can talk about their modeling capabilities.When we talk about their poly toolsets Max's toolset is certainly better in basic package (especially with Meshtools & CPoly scripts) as is Maya's NURBS better than Max's (I'v seen them both), and I think there should be no arguing in that.

[Mikkel Jans]

Does anyone know the Xumi Poly Plugin?.
The only tool i can think of that Max have and Maya doesn't is ConnectVertex.. But i'm already done programming ConnectVertex for Maya which will be out soon..
Im 99.9999% sure that it's because you don't know every aspect of Mayas Poly Tools. And it's not allways easy to find the good Poly Plugins for Maya but they are out there. When i release ConnectVertex for Maya then you can't mention 1 poly tool which Max have and Maya don't.. But i know alot which Max doesn't have..

I don't wanna discuss this.. I'm just saying that Mayas Poly tools are not weak if you have the right Plugins.. How the hell can it be weak when Maya got every poly tool that max got.. If Maya Poly tools are weak then Maxs must be weak too, but i know thats not true.. It just doesn't make any sense.

Mayas Poly Tools are not weak..

[ManInScaryMask]

genesis max, I don't know what you're thinking to say that MAX has NURBS... :) Using both MAX and Maya, I can definitely say that MAX sucks in the NURBS department. They're so heavy, it's not even funny. So slow to work with. Any workaround that I have found causes funny problems (like a Meshsmooth on top (0-iterations) with Show End Result on) like the CV's disappearing or random crashes when using the toolbox. I would be really happy if they'd incorporate a good NURBS package into the base, like Rhino, or even a copy of Maya's. :p

Lots of people try in vain to use the current set and wonder why they don't work... :)

[LFShade]

Saying that Max has better poly modelling tools than Maya, or vice versa, is sort of misleading. Each only has a truly robust set of poly modeling tools when they are enhanced by various plugins and scripts. I think it's safe to say that both packages have limitations to their polygon modelling toolset, but that both also fortunately have scripting languages powerful enough for the user to fill in the gaps in that functionality.

Customization of the toolset is a normal part of the workflow in CG, so let's all take a minute to celebrate the beauty of scripting!

[genesis max]

No, Maya's poly tools are not weak but Max has better snap tools, creasing control, control levels,soft selections & now has hierachical SubD surfaces (as do Maya). And about those scripts, with only two scripts Max has Nendo like type of modeling, which are by the way very easy to use and look like they are part of the basic package, I guess Maya has similar plugins but you have to download more of them :shrug: .
And about those NURBS, I agree with you ManInScaryMask and I hope those lazy Discreet programmers :annoyed: will deliver us beter NURBS tools like those in Rhino or Maya.
(Just kidding about those lazy programmers).:D

[TheDevil[DK]]

**** nurbs... nothing to use them for !!!

...sub-d poly, loft, lathe and booleen < withe them you can fit all your needs... (maybe forgot one or two )

:shame: :applause: :surprised

[Mikkel Jans]

Well i can mention Alot more Poly Tools that Maya has and Max doesn't.. And just because you have to download more plugins it doesn't make it worse.. If so then Max would be a Relly bad software ;).
I relly don't care if Max have some few things like Snap and Soft Selection better when it's tools i would never ever use. It doesn't make Max any better.
Maya 4.5 will have alot better snapping tools anyway

[TheDevil[DK]]

yeab... and 3dsmax version 25 is better then maya


...damm stop it know !!

[genesis max]

I think NURBS are good for cars and things like that, yes, you can do them with poly's too, but for industrialy designed objects NURBS are better (that is if you you have good toolset , not like that piece of crap in Max). I think that it would be big step forward because we now have almost complete poly tools and no NURBS spline modeling, which can be very easy and intuitive.
But most of all, I would like more stablity in new Max. :rolleyes:

[TheDevil[DK]]

I see your point... then they should do the nurbs part better

[Michael]

The norwegian reseller says that its gonna be released in 1st of july.
http://www.infinity.no/3ds_max_5.htm

its in norwegian but if u press the feature link its in english.


Michael

[xynaria]

LOL Nice to see that that feature list has no mention of Nurbs or Particles which obviously are so good that they can afford to be neglected in the manner they have always been accustomed too. Discreet.. taking the pi$$.. as if they would ROFLMAO. :wip: :wip:

[ManInScaryMask]

And don't forget the Schematic view. That's one that is so great they haven't even touched it in years. :p

Even the simplest of things are left to the 3rd party plugin developers and that decreases stability since that functionality isn't in the core program. NEEDS:

New particles.

A WORKING Schematic view

A different Material Editor (the one currently used is so confining it's painful)

More unified tools and functions for the different base-object types. There should be a Divide function in every mesh type. Sometimes it's a bit hard to divide edges when you have to collapse to Editable Poly, select the edges, divide them with Meshtools, add the appropriate edges, then RE-collapse to Editable Mesh, then go back to work. It's a bit tedious and also a bit unfair.

Layers. Nuff said.

Just some thoughts, not in any real order, just rambling...

[LFShade]

Small consolation, but it's been written that there is to be some sort of layer functionality in the new version.

Curious: what exactly do you find "confining" about the material editor?

And a question for nobody in particular: what's the deal with the schematic view, anyway? Did Discreet think they were being clever when they added this...ermm...feature? You can't link objects, you can't assign materials, you can't wire parameters or edit controllers. As far as I can tell, the only things you can do are select objects, view heirarchical structure, and edit properties. Useless. Just useless.

[ManInScaryMask]

Confining in the sense that you can't see what every piece of the material tree does at the same time (Hypershade). You have to click on each section and turn off Show End Result to be able to see what the specific map is doing for the final material.

If Schematic view was fixed then that would be a perfect place to have them (in addition to the Material Editor).

[Reality3D]

LFShade you can link objects within schematic view ;)

[yair]

i just got the beta and it is very dissapointing, it seems every max upgrade only deals with one or two main aspect of the program and leaves the rest as they are.
i am very dissapointed with the character tools i have seen on the beta, its nothing that isnt available as plugins, it "feels" very max 4.5 to me.
pardon my englez but im tired and dissapointed.

my only hope its an early beta, but looking at the http://www.infinity.no/max5_features.htm it looks preaty final, at least the rendering freaks will have some fun (if they dont already have vray,brazil or fR, that is)

[yair]

been there...

[Chico]

..................................:annoyed: ................................

Some people should be shot

[ManInScaryMask]

Hey, not nice. Go back to drinking your coffee, Chico... :)

BTW, a title from a sitcom during the 70's came into my head a few minutes ago. Scatman Crothers and Freddy Prinze... Anybody guess? :)

[yair]

CHICO (should drop that coffe and go with some tap water till he calms down) AND THE MAN.

[ManInScaryMask]

Good boy... :)

About the wheezy updates... I think in MAX4 the custom UI was a biggie, some fixes in the NURBS (didn't notice...), and Activeshade, etc.

I'd like to push for a script-based program. Like Maya... With faster OpenGL. How come I can get 150fps in Maya, but only 30-50 in MAX? Freaky...

[xynaria]

I have to agree that the material editor needs revising to be more node based..... easy example.. I'm using a fall off map in the diffuse map.....now I want one of the maps in the fall off slots to be partially self illuminated and have its own opacity map.. how at present. You could if you could assign a standard material type there but you can't..only a map type..pretty limiting in that case huh.. plus it would be nice for it to exist like a shelf where you could have only assigned or other filtering of what materials loaded to speed things up .

And how on God's own earth is there not an option to hide in render as well as in view. Like I say Discreet are taking the piss. trouble is either they know it and don't care or they don't know it and are therfore pretty useless when understanding it's users needs. Crap show for a potentially good programme.

:bounce:

[ManInScaryMask]

Boy howdy... That'd be a deep material tree... Turn all but the falloff map's self-illum. map to black, I guess. Not too hard. Just copy and change some values. A pain in the butt, I know, but it is possible.

[tAstyBITs]

Originally posted by ManInScaryMask

More unified tools and functions for the different base-object types. There should be a Divide function in every mesh type. Sometimes it's a bit hard to divide edges when you have to collapse to Editable Poly, select the edges, divide them with Meshtools, add the appropriate edges, then RE-collapse to Editable Mesh, then go back to work. It's a bit tedious and also a bit unfair.

Layers. Nuff said.

[/B]


One button to connet edges. There's also a retriangleate function to manage the invisable edges. Even with out mesh tools you can add edges in edit poly in Max 4.

see.http://www.home.earthlink.net/~loriperkins/A-before.jpg




Mesh Tool's connect button.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~loriperkins/A-after.jpg




There are more funtions avalible with meshtools. If you know what your doing you don't need to use edit mesh.


Oh I'm not suppost to say this but maya has weak poly modeling tools. But there are more maya users reading this forum than max, maybe there trying to learn something about modeling. :)

[Mikkel Jans]

PixelFuk you just have to learn Maya before you can speak about it. It's clear that you don't know the strenght in Mayas Poly Tools.
I have bean modeling for a long time in the both Max and Maya and i know every poly plugin for Maya and Max. If you ask me Maya is a better poly modeller. I don't care if you don't think so but saying it's weak is just misleading..

[ambient-whisper]

personally i feel that both of them have a weak interface for modeling.

so there ya have it. :) max...maya. neither win ;) both need a maid to come in and clean them up.

[tAstyBITs]

I know Max modeling stuff very well. Maya, well I just spent a day playing around, and sat in on a promotion demstration at Art Center so I'm sure there's more but after a day it's very obvious, there isn't much there for modeling with poly's. I was all excited I got the Learning Eddition of Maya I had the king of all modelers, and it was like a empty bag of tricks. I'm willing to learn more because I've seen some good work, but it seems you have only a one maybe two techniques you can model with using maya. Max you can model with any technique you can think of and Max lets you pull it off. It also has the best User Interface. I'm sorry but maya has a uphill battle to climb before I'll change my point of veiw. I'm not moved by the ,"oh it Maya, the program they use for movies" (they just scan things in from scultures anyway when it comes to movie work). Hey Maya wouldn't have dropped it's price if SGI's didn't go under. Maya is just a over hyped brand name in my book.

I thought this was a Max forum. Do you understand the term "off topic."

[tAstyBITs]

Yair thanks for the link.

I have to say Max 5 includes some Meshtools function but I still have more functions with Meshtools in Max 4.

At least is suppost to be backwards compatible with Max 4 plug ins. I wonder about the price for the upgrade.

[Mikkel Jans]

PixelFuk trust me when i say; You Don't Know What You Are Talking About..
If you only knew what Maya could do you would know thats it's better and faster and also got a better interface.
You souldn't talk about things that you don't know anything about It's misleading

[ronald_hartman]

Well....as long as we are talking about polytools...why not have a polygon modeling workflow like in XSI ?. I prefer that one over Maya's and Max's anytime... Power in modeling is one thing, but being able to model in an elegant and fast way is a thing which Max or Maya could improve a lot upon...

But still curious about Max5.....i think they have to implement a lot of new/improved features or a redesigned workflow to be able to keep the max-people happy.......

just my 2 cents..

[bologna]

The reason I say that Max's modeling is better is just a few things really. First, Maya's bevel edge sucks. The reason I say this is because 1. It's not interractive until AFTER you have applied it. Even then the result are poor most of the time. Try creating a cube, move one ov the top verts closer to another top vert. Now select the 4 top edges and bevel. You willget extra edges.

Another thing is that you can't edit your invisible edges. This is very important for games.

Both Max and Maya's poly systems are Winged Edge based, so there would be no reason that the same scipted tools couldn't be created for both, unless the functionality isn't open to scipting. Maybe you could rewrite some of the existing tools as well...

I still agree that Max has better Poly tools, and it sounds like they are continuing to build on that with 5.

[Mikkel Jans]

And the reason I say that Maya's modeling is better is many things.
It's a matter of how you work. I can work alot faster with the Maya workflow then Maxs.
There's tools which work better in Max BUT there is also alot tools which works better in Maya.

I have bean modelled alot in both Max and Maya.. Maxs workflow is based alot on ConnectVertices, ConnectEdges and Subdivide.. While Mayas is more a Split Polygon, Loop Split, Draw Split workflow.
Connect tools are more used in Max because the Cut Tool sucks.. But the reason why someone say that Mayas poly tools are weak is because they don't know the Maya Workflow...
Both programs can almost do the same in Poly Modelling.. It's just a matter of how you workflow is.. I just think it's faster to work with Mayas workflow.

[TheDevil[DK]]

I personaly hate cut tools.... also the one in maya... loop/ring + connect is always best IMO

[eek]

Blimey, the amount of posts here! like 120 or something, we could wright a book, or some new piece of software software like: Maxaya or Mayax?

Ee:eek: k!

(Oh........i still wanna see a whole rewrite of max!! as planned)

[ManInScaryMask]

Originally posted by Mikkel Jans
PixelFuk you just have to learn Maya before you can speak about it. It's clear that you don't know the strenght in Mayas Poly Tools.
I have bean modeling for a long time in the both Max and Maya and i know every poly plugin for Maya and Max. If you ask me Maya is a better poly modeller. I don't care if you don't think so but saying it's weak is just misleading..

Man, I've got a lot of catching up to do...

Maya's poly tools are great, but a few of the more useful things (Divide Faces) are difficult to work with. Extrude is really nice (wish MAX had that...), Divide faces would be great if it would automatically align the division location (if not requiring Midpoint snaps).

MAX's tools are extremely fast to work with, yet for most people I've watched the "Using Meshtools on a Meshsmoothed Editable Poly with Show End Result On" is the preferred workflow because you can see what's happening, and it's more intuitive to a point. Lots of Maya users around here are using CPS (Can't Possibly Survive-without-it) like the MAX workflow and the basic poly tools do the job wonderfully.

Mikkel, you are absolutely right. You have to learn what the package can do before you bash it. :)

IMO, both of them are wonderful, you just have to know what you are trying to accomplish and have an imagination if some tool isn't there.

[frog]

way OT, but I'm with ambient-whisper. I've used Nendo for 3 years now, and Max (even with Meshtools) and Maya are both slow and limited compared with the Nendo/Mirai workflow. :p

[Mikkel Jans]

I can't see the usefull in divide faces.
Almost the only Poly tools i use in my workflow is:
Split Polygon, Loop Split, Delete Edge, Extrude Face and Draw Split.

Split Polygon is great tool for both Connect Vertex to Vertex, Connect Edge to Edge, Connect Edge to Vertex or Vertex to Edge.
All in One.. You don't have to change the Snap option every time.. Split Polygon can do it all at the same time witout changeing snapping mode which speed it up Alot.

Loop Split - Every 3d app need this tool.

Delete Edge - good for deleteing edges ;)

Extrude Faces - The Extrude Handle in Maya is Great..

Draw Split - Alot faster then Connect Edges. It's alot faster to just draw over you edges- With Connect Edges You have to first select Edges and then connect.. And with Draw Split you can automatic Snap to Vertices if you hold down control.

Can't think of a faster workflow then just haveing these tools mapped to near hotkeys. Together they can do everything you need and do it Relly Fast.

[ManInScaryMask]

Sorry Mikkel, I mean Split Polygon tool. (need sleep. MUST SLEEP!)

Basically the only things I use that are in the base package:

MAX: Extrude, Bevel (with the wrap-around spinner and decimal snaps), Create Edge, Divide (for placed verts).

Maya: Extrude (*drool*), Split Polygon Tool (with snaps), Subdivide (I'd be lost without it), and Loop Select every now and then.

The other tools are very useful, but not as much of a requirement for myself and many others (here, can't speak for anywhere else). Sometimes I wished that Laszlo would do Meshtools for Maya as well. I'd never leave Maya... :)

[xynaria]

"Due to unparalleled criticism levelled at Discreet and after consultation with the Luna Beta testers.. Discreet revealed today that they would do the honourable thing and release what is currently known as Luna as a free point upgrade from max 4.2 to 4,5 and speed up development of a full point release due to be out by the end of Q4_02. This is partialy to ammend for the fact that the last two full point releases have been claimed to be rather lacking and they feel they may have alienated their user base slighltly. Wanting to show good faith, they also apologised profusely for pricing their goods in Europe at well above dollar conversion rates, and said this abominable and inexcusable practice would be ceased immediately. "


:D :D :D :D

[ManInScaryMask]

xynaria, what are your sources? You must supply a valid link for it to be taken seriously. (although some people like to speculate without knowing the facts)

[TheDevil[DK]]

yeehhh... ManInScaryMask way to many persons forget to put the sources on when they post....

but chechout http://maxunderground.com/mu/

[xynaria]

I'm merely taking the piss just like they are.. the inverted commas can mean irony you know LOL :D

[ManInScaryMask]

Would someone please tell me what the hell that's supposed to mean? "Taking the piss." I've heard that a lot and still do not understand it.

How come everything is *rumored* to happen? If it isn't OFFICIAL on Discreet's site, then it doesn't exist. Period.

I don't see how everyone can be running around like a chicken with its head cut off when they're just speculating something MIGHT happen IF someone THINKS it COULD happen. Everyone needs to leave Discreet to what they're working on. If we get a free 4.5 point release then "Kick Ass", but if not then "I guess we'll wait a month or so."

I hate rumors...

[TheDevil[DK]]

http://maxunderground.com/mu/

Rumor - Max 5 details update 2002-06-13 01:38:01-07
Posted by: Pablo Hadis

It seems Max's new particle system is still being worked at and due to development needs *could* be delayed and included in a point release after Max 5. Let's hope it's because they want to take full advantage of the possibilities Reactor brings to Max. :-)

Source: Refract1 - Splutterfish Delphi Forum

[ManInScaryMask]

Well, the new particle system is certainly a breath of fresh air, but I see no official basis for the discussion of phantom features.

End of discussion, as far as I'm concerned...

[xynaria]

The term "taking the piss" generally means either abusing, being sarcarstic or both...
There have indeed been rumours flying around for months vis a vis Max 5.. tis true .. but from what has been indicated by Discreet so far, even if unwittngly (though one would assume they would tell their dealers the state of play) they appear to again have failed to deliver the goods and I doubt I am the only one to find their attitude somewhat lacking. :wip:

[TheDevil[DK]]

Originally posted by xynaria
The term "taking the piss" generally means either abusing, being sarcarstic or both...
There have indeed been rumours flying around for months vis a vis Max 5.. tis true .. but from what has been indicated by Discreet so far, even if unwittngly (though one would assume they would tell their dealers the state of play) they appear to again have failed to deliver the goods and I doubt I am the only one to find their attitude somewhat lacking. :wip:

I agree... but I prefer to wait 2-3 month more and then have a 3dsmax 5 with full features and fixes

[xzevlin]

Recipe for wild speculation

Take:
One 75 day old beta

Add apparent discreet dealer info

Stir constantly between bouts of "Max sucks" and "Maya Sucks"

Result:
This thread

[genesis max]

what do you mean by "cut tool sucks".Cut tool is cut tool.Please explain.

[baby]

Sorry I can't read your 150 posts :

2 questions :

- did they bring back the progressive morph from morph magik, which is an indispensable feature !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(I mean you can pick several morph target in one morph) for round eye blink for example...


- I 've seen your picts...did they put the meshtools in max 5 ?!?

the coolest modeling plug ever ?!?


THANX

[tAstyBITs]

Only the basic meshtool functions are in max 5.


Yes Progressive morphing.



and G.I.

oh and a new cut tool that kicks ass.


but I heard this from a friend.;)

[tAstyBITs]

Mikkel Jans- I do know what I'm talking about.

I'll waste some time on Maya when I've got it to waste. Thanks for your opinons.

[baby]

THANX a lot PIXEL for the answer...

progressive morph... arf coool... bye bye blink float expressions of my a...



by the way Wooo the behemoth guy is really cool !!! did you model it ?!?

bravo

[Reality3D]

Yes, the new cut tul is very cool(just draw a line)

[tAstyBITs]

It was all me using Max.

[Ed Lee]

Originally posted by PixelFuk
Mikkel Jans- I do know what I'm talking about.

I'll waste some time on Maya when I've got it to waste. Thanks for your opinons.

Brotherz, I can see down the road - that you guyz need to take a chill pill before it can get out of hand.

Having tried diff soft, and now Mirai, and lately Maya at work it all comes down to the "artist", and I use the term loosely. :scream:

That's totally another subject matter.

The reason I've been following this thread is because I want to know what kind of implements they'll put in Max 5. So far, not much that I'm willing to spend another $900+ for (the last upgrade costed me). I got couple of GI render plug-ins, along with Meshtools plug-in, and CS. So, I really don't need to upgrade tho I want to but, it's not enough.

U say Maya has weak modeling toolset, well it did. But, u can download numerous plug-ins/scripts to help aid the emptiness u feel. Also, their Bonus Game script is pretty cool. A must!

But, you know what fellas? I've been digging Lightwave's modeler, especially it's gaggle of toolset for poly modeling. And I can model pretty fast with it, even complex organic shapes. Maya does need copy/paste tool for verts and poly's, unless I'm missing something.

Over all, I feel the Max zealots are like the younger brotha always harrasing the older brotha Maya. Like they want to knock the crown off.

:shame:

OK, that's my 2 paso's. Now, back to the soccer game. :wavey:

Ed--

http://www.edleeart.com

[xynaria]

Originally posted by Ed Lee


So far, not much that I'm willing to spend another $900+ for (the last upgrade costed me).
http://www.edleeart.com



Exactly and if you are in the uk because Discreet's figures do not take currency conversion into account thats approx £900 for the upgrade .. do the maths!(just under the cost of a full Lightwave or Electric image licence).. even more of a sting for what exactly? (Max is just over $3,000 in the usa.. if you pay full price it's £3250 in the uk,,, MMNNN.... defensible .. to them it is)
Ok everyone and his dog wished that this version was to be the release where they finally sorted Max.. but early indications are that they have screwed up yet again and brought some very welcome features (even if they aren't their own) but not the ones most wanted and you have to ask where their heads are at. So many features have not been updated since 2.5 at least and that is not because they weren't crying out for it. I don't care for software wars or even that much for price wars but for Max's relative price point in the market you would think they'd have to seriously start realising the goods on this rather overdue release but it looks too much like more of the same and they may ridicule A|W's long term viability but I reckon it's in far heathier shape than Max's is at present.. Little or no innovation, more bolting on of features to an already bloated code that should have been properly consolidated in previous releases. Don't get me wrong.. I still like Max but it's very easy to see what it could be rather than what it is for most users so how come Discreet are either unwilling or unable to share that vision and stop the purported erosion of the user base that is not going to do anyone any good.
Eighteen months between updates is a very long time by any programmes standards and I don't think anyone would even mind a price increase if it really delivered the goods.. the lack of innovation might be excused if it did what it did do well and with a stability and robustness that was enviable but the sad fact is that its a hodge podge of good and bad ideas that are barely keeping up by the time they eventually come out. Big deal .. its now got GI..but is it as usable as Vray, fR, Brazil, Entropy for most or are users going to have to still buy another renderer for it to be truly useful.. ok they incorporated part of Mesh Tools .. that was there anyway and if Discreet were anywhere within spitting distance of the ball they would have come up with them themselves for R4... on and on it goes ad nauseum schematic view.. looks very nice but its usefulness is what exactly??? No sorting of Nurbs.. Particle update to be a point release (in theory) No hair .. No metaballs..(ok no great deal but...) No truly volumetric shaders No proper sound editing.. no update to video post.. dynamics still courtesy of Havok(nothing wrong with that but...what do Discreet actually develop?) Do they ever use their programme or listen to the people who do? No cloth simualtion No update to the material editor... still an overall reliance on plugins and whereas it's price point used to undercut Maya, SI, Electric Image it now only undercuts XSI and Maya Unlimited. If Maya 4.5 Complete does have sub d's when it is released, then what exactly is Max's raisond'etre/ selling point ? .. a promise that everyone knows will never be fulfilled perhaps.
Sad beyond belief. Yes a software can't make an artist but it sure as hell can make it easier instead of needlessly harder. You get LW evangalists, Maya evangalists, Mirai evangalists, XSI evangalists but all you ever get from Max users is "it's not as bad as people make out".. it isn't ....but it could be a huge amount better, and needs to be if it isn't going to go the way of all things IMHO. :)

[Chico]

I agree...

We just brought a copy of Lightwave 7 as its less than half the price of max, and is a whole damn package..! Its feature rich...and okay Ive heard things like the NLA is alittle unstable etc...but hey...It has one.! If discreet were to Slap a NLA in MAx the as per normal it would be as buggy as hell for the next couple of releases...and lest face it....the point releases for max 4 have been pretty damn usless.

Before we brought Lightwave we looked into the companies behind them....just compare the the diecreet press statment on the future direction to the interview with Luxology at CGChannel....Yea sure this is possibly all propaganda but hey...I guess Newtek is better at it.

Anyway Newtek/Luxology did that great big bug hunt and supoibly removed 500 odd bugs in LWAve.....Come ondiscreet..? if I can find 5,000 bugs in max you should at least sit down and remove 1,000 of em..?

And lightwave just keeps on giving..i just got thihs in the mail the other day...

LightWave Add-A-Seat

If you own a registered copy of LightWave [7], you can Add-A-Seat to your shop for just $995. Run LightWave on an additional workstation in your office or get a copy for home use!


So well IMO discreet better sort out their shite....In saying all this I will be the first to write out a cheque for the Max Upgrade.

[Chico]

it all comes down to the "artist",

Yes and no...the tools play a strong role too...I use Max mainly and am testing some new modeling software...and damn...This stuff is soo fast and intutive.....Going back to max is a real dog now.

Any app that can open in less than 1 sec is got to be good. I can make a coffee while max opens....which is kinda cool in a wrong sorta way :P

I would kill to see what Miari is like....Sigh

[AnimBot]

If discreet were to Slap a NLA in MAx the as per normal it would be as buggy as hell for the next couple of releases

Max has had a form of NLA. It's called block controllers It's been out since version 3. Many people don't know about it and I guess there's a reason for that, it sucks. It takes too much to setup, you can't save out the clips, and the clips don't show any keyframes in the actual timeline. It's as limited as the schematic view. Why keep adding these half hearted tools?

[Chico]

Block controlers are a nightmare...Max has everything it needs...It just needs to be easier to use..

[Ed Lee]

Yeah, I hear u xynaria. XSI now has a trade-in program and I signed up for it. Another thing, I had such a hard time trying to get an auth code for 4.0 that I told the woman that she can take the software back. Eventually, I got the code after a month of begging, kissing a**, etc! It was not worth being treated like that over a software that's not even that highend. Lightwave peeps on other hand were very cool, gave me the code the following day. So, what is it? They're maintaining their price, prb their upgrade fee as well. And treats their customers like criminals.

I've also migrated to Maya even tho it's got some poly issues, but the animation and other tools are very cool. And I feel like I could go somewhere with it.

Chico: Being an artist has an advantages that an average CG person doesn't. The tool plays some part agreed, but "some" CG peeps hide behind it cuz they can't draw worth shite. I tire of peeps who rally behind their choice of software and feel the drawing skills or designs aren't significant. Artists got nothing between them and the paper they use to create on. So, does the paper outweigh the creative drive of the artist? It shouldn't, but it has come that way, especially with 3D software. The softwre does the other 50% of the work. I know I've gotten off the subject but statements like yours harkens back to the days of constant snickerings I got by the CGI types. Now that I can do both "art" does matter, and that's the key of surviving or becoming just a poly-pusher.

Ed--

www.edleeart.com (http://www.edleeart.com)

[tAstyBITs]

Hey I worry about the future, I keep a eye out on what other software can do. I try my best and I'm honest about what I know and don't know. But learning all software packages so I can decide which one is the best is out of the question. If I'm going to switch software I need a good reason. So where I'm trying to go with this is this? I don't mind people arguing about software, I want to hear other people opinons. So please everybody thanks you for yours.

Ed I look forward to your awsome stuff. I really think you can do work that's above and beyond the norm. But what your talking about is only important to the project your working on, not all art is the same. When it comes down to it, it dosen't matter how you get it done so long as it looks great.

But I will add this I draw all the time and it shows in my 3d work. Visual vocabulary and a practical understanding about the visual world adds alot and the only way to get that is to study, but that's just my opinon.

[Ed Lee]

Hey, that's cool. I wish you the best man.

Ed--

[Chico]

Ed...Dont get me wrong...The Artist comes before the tool in every situation. We dont employ anyone here unless they have a stong Artistic background.

I was mearly pointing out that some tools are better for the artistic process than others. Max is good but a little slow and clunky...you have to drop in and out of different modes...changing you levels to get to different tools etc...this can really interupt the creative process.

Im using a beta of clay at the moment ad its great. All the tools are built so you can use them at any point...its fast and is more like a sketchbook than a 3d app.

I just wanted to point out that an artistic eye is very important...but its also good to have a toolset that doesnt slow you down.

Im reallt tired of ppl you think "wee im an artist...I have a computer...I can draw......why wont you employ me..?" There are tonnes of schools here pouring out ppl who are designers (graphic, multimedia, 3d) who are flooding the citys with statments like the above. All these schools focus on is the ability to learn a programme to a basic level (PShop, Pagemaker, Dreamweaver, Lightwave whatever) then go out there under the illustion that they are industry ready....well they are missing one important thing...artistic ability.

The only ppl who have came out of those places that are any good have been doing finearts degrees prior. And the schools hevely promot these ppl s work as to get more students.

Sad really...Especilay for us...we have very little people we can employ and we get CVs and portfolios everyday we have to say no to.


rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant

Sorry bout the rant :)

[Fnkymnky]

Originally posted by Chico
Max is good but a little slow and clunky...you have to drop in and out of different modes...changing you levels to get to different tools etc...this can really interupt the creative process.


I suppose I can see how the switching between certain modes could bug some people, but it doesn't BEGIN to approach the likes of Lightwave.

Intuitive: adj. -- Derived from or prompted by a natural tendency; capable of knowing without deduction or reasoning.

You have to switch to an entirely different program just to make something as simple as a CUBE?! That makes no sense whatsoever. Then you've got the menu bar down the side of the screen, with no clear separation between buttons, each one supposedly "color coded", while several like-colored buttons are nowhere near each other, and so on.

Sure, max doesn't come with Global Illumination solutions out of the box; no radiosity, no caustics, or anything of the sort. But at least it has a no-bullsh*t, common-sense interface, that adheres to the common Windows way of working.

Same with Maya: the Windows version looks and feels (for the most part) like a typical Windows program. The Mac version looks and feels like a MacOS program. Lightwave? Not even so much as a regular old "File - Edit - etc." bar!

Not to put down the artists using LW; you can, and have, done some INCREDIBLE work. If you're any good with it, more power to ya. But there's no debating the fact that the interface is NOT intuitive, as Newtek so boldly claims. In max, if I wanna make a box, sphere, cylinder, or other primitive object, I click the appropriate button; they're RIGHT THERE, when you start the program. In Maya, the "Create" menu is clearly labeled, and it's rather obvious that you'd want to start there when making a new scene. Who would think you have to run a separate application just to build an object?

I'm not suggesting the average dolt should be able to use an entire 3D app without reading the manual; but having to read through the thing before you can even USE the program doesn't sit well with me.

Call me crazy, but I'm happy to spend more than double the price, if it means I get a pleasant, easy to use UI.

But hey, diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks, as they always say. No offense meant to any of you guys. Just whomever did the interface for Lightwave. And in the end, nothing--I mean, NOTHING--comes close to the train wreck that is Blender. :beer:


As for you, Chico (most of that rant, it turns out, wasn't directed at you. :p), I'm just the opposite. Once I get going in max, I work incredibly fast, with no interruption of my 'creative juices'.

[ManInScaryMask]

Originally posted by Fnkymnky
And in the end, nothing--I mean, NOTHING--comes close to the train wreck that is Blender. :beer:


Don't you mean WAS? :) I was looking for the Mac version but of course the site was down, and has been for some time. It's sad... I was going to get the full-color manual and guide but I had to take my cat to the vet so was unable to contribute to their program.

Despite the atrocious interface, it was very fast once you learned the basic layout and rules.

[Fnkymnky]

Heh heh....that wasn't really a valid argument, as I haven't used Blender for over a year. :p I'm just a grumpy sonofab*tch.

But I've heard of places that still offer the download....no idea where those places are, though.

EDIT: Scratch that, here's one: http://www.download.blender.pl/

[Chico]

First, Im not a fan of lightwave myself but it doesnt have one really good point....

You have to switch to an entirely different program just to make something as simple as a CUBE

As I do mainly modeling and texturing I hate having to wait for the 40sec or so to boot up max, where lightwave is just there...and in turn is bogged down with all this other crap I dont really need.

AS I mentioned before Im now using software that is a dedicated Sub-Div modeling app that opens in less tahn a sec and is simple and fast to use.

Lightwaves not m,y flavour of choice, but we just brought a licence due to the recent price drops...And Its proving to be alot more stable and reliable than max. Its feature rich too. Yes the GI is slow....but thats not what we bought it for.

But yes my five minutes with blender...I had no idea how it worked...but I have heard good stuff about it when you got to know it....

IMO there is nothing worse than Strata 3d. I almost gave up before I evern started 3d.

[Fnkymnky]

Actually, Chico, I didn't even know you were familiar with Lightwave...I was just kinda throwing my opinion out there for everyone to read.

But what are you running max on that it takes so long to start? I just timed my copy at 13.5 seconds; still no LW, but not terribly aggravating.

[Chico]

42 seconds form fresh boot.:thumbsdow

27 seconds for second boot (preloaded in ram or something I guess..?):thumbsdow

AMD 1ghz Athlon
Win2k
3*256MB RAm :shrug:

OKay its not a flash machine...(Was about 18 months ago :( )

Buts seriousl is still too long...especialy the amount of times it crashes
Lightwave takes less than 5 seconds...layout and Modeler

But 13.5 seconds is pretty good IMO. Im sure when you get 5.0 they fix that.

The guy whos writing "Clay" is getting alot of comments as to the speed of the load up and the fact that the installer is a little over 100k. He mentioned he was going to include a 100mb avi splash screen so ppl take it more seriously :bounce:

[Fnkymnky]

:eek: Wow....that's strange. I'm running an Athlon XP 1800 (1.533Ghz) on Windows XP, with 256 RAM. But god knows how many other factors differ on our machines...

As for instability, I can count the number of times I've had max crash on one hand. With no fingers. It did lock up once, when rendering a complex scene, but that was just a test; I felt like seeing if the renderer could handle it or not, and, apparently, it failed.

Maybe I'm just lucky. :shrug:

Anyways, I hate to push the discussion further off track--anybody got any more juicy max 5 rumors? :p

[xzevlin]

What the heck is Clay? I've heard it mentioned a buncha times now. My curiosity is piqued.

[Chico]

Clay = www.rocket3d.com

still in private beta but you can sign up for the public one when its released. Nt sure when....But this site should keep you posted.

If you want to see screenshots of it I was using it in my june challenge.

[givetommoney]

so what are the names the scripts for mestools in maya, and where can we get them?

[rez]

Another angle,

I have been useing Maya since 2.0 and just got a job at an all Max house. A very well known house. They also hired a few other people; all of us are coming from Maya. Why retrain us? Because know one teaches Max in the schools. It’s all Maya Soft And Lightwave. Max has the unfortunate reputation of being a game modeling=low quality modeling and animation package. This is compounded by things like Gmax Which is exclusively for in-game modeling and animation. Houses that want to make "Hi-end" work for Movies, Game cinematic and Commercials that are looking for good Artists are going to increasingly have to deal with Maya/Lightwave/Softimage talent. That means retraining$$ and most folks don’t even want to switch. So It will become cost effective to throw a Maya complete seat in the pipeline hear and there for 2k$ and everybody is happy. As this starts to happen and it already is Max will start to be come legacy.

Untrue you say!
Legacy?

Let Me explain. I was showing my boss Real Nurbs subdivision surfaces that can handle n-gons in Maya, not smoothed Polys. He was like wow! True, this is like crack for modelers imagine having a cage and a perfectly smooth proxy with no smoothing iterations!

And rendering is perfectly smooth like any other nurbs surface no smoothing required.

Max Plugins:

Character Studio
ACT tools
Famousfaceace ETC, ETC.

All or this stuff I see and go cool you can do that in stock Maya. When the max houses see that they dump crazy money into the plugin treadmill to get new feature. Again it will be cost effective to switch, drop the plugz and hire a very good TD to make new in-house tools like the BIG BOYS do.

Ha!

So what I use max now and its 85% as cool as Maya. I’m a worker bee and I use what ever they give me. But the stack Suckzz and Discreet has some major work to do if they are going to beat Maya in the ring. Especially a 2k a seat!

HeHe And max 5 has Maya manips :drool:

[bologna]

I now work at a game company as well. I use to only work with Maya and Soft. We recently had several AW guys down to show us why we really needed Maya.

While I agree that Maya is nice and hase some great stuff, there is no way we would switch. The reasons are:

1. There are a lot more Max artists out there. The ratio is about 80% Max and 20% Maya comparing both the artists we have hired, and the demo reels we get in.

2. Sub D Surfaces are only in Maya Unlimited which is still way more than Max. Plus, for game work this is not needed. The models should look like what they are going to look like in the game. Max also had both methods for subdividing a mesh. Doo-Sabin's and Catmull Clark. It is just a different form of drawing method. I think Maya only gives you one way. BTW, Max handles true n-gon faces. Both Max and Maya are based in Winged Edge technologies. Maya still can't turn edges, though. This is very important for gamers.

3. Pipeline. We have a bunch of proprietary tools already (just like the "big boys"). It would take over a year to re-code them all. We don't have that kind of time. Max had a SDK before Maya even exsitsted.

4. As far as more students wanting to go into Hight res stuff like film and broadcast work, I am seeing more and more wanting to come into games. There is more money in games and the quality is growing expinentially. Why do you think Maya is trying to get their foot in? If you look around I bet you find quite a few artists that have transfered from film to games.

5. The plugins you mentioned, Character Studio, ACT, Famous Faces, are all things that you CAN'T get in Maya. We have several projects going currently. One had the needs Character Studio fit perfectly, so we are using it for that game. We usually use our own rigs. Charaacter Studio does things that no other company has. The workflow sucks, but the fact that you can share animations between ANY sized character with a different heiarchy.

ACT is a true muscle deformation system. Totally different than Maya's deformers. We had a proprietary muscle system where I use to work and believe me, this thing is faster and easier to use than anything I have seen before.

Things like Famous Faces and Lip Sync are more than a morph system. They cut your time down by analizing the sound file and doing 80% of the grunt work for you. Maya also has nothing like this built in.

Also, as far as Maya's rigging goes, discreet hired the guy that did Maya's IK over 2 years ago. Max has the same stuff in there, and will more than likely be even better with 5.

Now let me ask you something. When do you think AW will get around to improving Maya Fur, Cloth, Live? As it is now, I don't see it happening.. Fur is worthless, and Cloth is starting to show it's age.

Max 3 and 4 has manips. Others had them before Maya.

[tAstyBITs]

The game industry last year almost made more than the music industry, it's somewhere around 9 billion. I think movies make around 6 billion. You add up the numbers.

Movies companies use maya for effects and animation mostly 3d models are sculpted then scanned. Only simple stuff is built by hand and if it's complicated you get a programmer to add it to artisan.

[rez]

Ok Ill address a few of the issues and try not to be belligerent.

1)
More max users than maya/lightwave/soft artists at your company, which is a game company does not reflect games or the cg industry as a whole. Show me the numbers until then its all just hearsay.

2)
"Sub D Surfaces are only in Maya Unlimited" True and they are not in Max at all. If the nurbs based subds are in complete for v5 then watch out. Both Maya complete and Max can handle n-gon Smoothed polys. Smoothed polys and subdivs are two different types of surfaces. Although I have to give Discreet Credit for being creative enough to come up with NURMS: Non-Uniform Rational MeshSmooth, cough, cough!

3)
If your a game company you better have a bunch of proprietary tools :) But seriously Most Houses that do not make game assets or make games don’t have a team of c++ coders. So they use plugins. And most of if not all of the functionality is in Maya and can be pulled together with a few nice scripted interfaces. ACT from what I have seen can be done in Maya with soft bodies, physics and deformers and a few other tricks. In fact this is sort of what I am working on right now. And it will not cost you an extra 10,000.

4)
Most kids want to work at Pixar the reality is that most will not get those dream jobs. Games are a big industry with a long deep commitment to Max and there is undoubtedly a large number Max trained folks to fill those seats. But Production and Game Houses that want to do Movies, Game cinematic and Commercials are looking for folks who were shooting for Pixar and have very good film quality work not level designers and in game poly modelers. And they will find most of these kids coming into the industry with Maya/soft/lightwave skills. This will only continue because of the price drops.

5)
"Character Studio does things that no other company has" Yeah it has stuff that no other company has. Like a center of mass that has no relationship to the pelvis. A pelvis that can only be rotated about the Y-axis. No EulerXYZ rotations. No pole vector constraints. More limits on the clavicle. Hey but who needs all that crap when you have procedural footsteps and TCB? Biped is good for doing in game animations from mocap data and that’s about it. All those awesome features for more money damn!

Lastly Yes fur is showing its age but cloth is still kickin and works fine.

We will see as Sig, Hopefully What Discreet and Alias have up their sleeves.

Perhaps the big news will be that Apple has bought them both and then I can shoot myself in the head. :eek:

Thanks for the astute response bologna.

[rez]

PixelFuk:

Games did about 9

And Movies did about 7 or 8

But that only takes into accounts for ticket sales. Not vhs dvd and other merchandise that puts the Motion picture industry earnings above games at the end of the day.

I do not feel like digging out the sources to substantiate this so take it with a grain of salt.

Yeah movies don’t use to much hires modeling and texturing take those crappy models in Final Fantasy for instance just some reshaped cubes and stuff ;)

[bologna]

Thanks for the astute response bologna. [/B][/QUOTE]

No problem. ;)

[tAstyBITs]

Okay what the hell is the big deal with true Sud D's and fake Sub D's. It sounds more like snob talk. Maya has 'True Sub D's, Max does not" say the snob Maya user. Come on give me a break are you saying the only true math is nurb math and polygons are fake. Get real.


Most game companies don't have programmers to spare. Most have trouble finding good programers period. And the few that a company has have lots to do already. So the idea of having some one write you a plug in is in most companies out of the question. If a company where to switch to Maya they would have to hire a Mel programmer just to make it work for the game and the artists. Most game companies use Max because it's easier to use with games.

[Fnkymnky]

....

<SARCASM>
Man, can you feel the love? It's so nice to see people getting along, having reasonable, intelligent discussions about something they enjoy, the Computer Graphics field.
</SARCASM>

Quite frankly, these arguments are exactly the kind of bullshit that turned me off of internet discussion forums a couple years ago. I finally work up the courage to come back, and this is what I see: "Hey, everybody, look at me! I use Maya, that makes me better than you Max idiots!" (substitute Maya/Max for the appropriate programs; it's the same argument).

This thread began as a list of confirmed/rumored features to be included in 3ds max version 5. It's degenerated, like so many others, into a festering boil on the ass of our community.

I say we all shut our goddamned mouths, grow up, and be friends. You will NEVER convince the opposing party that they're wrong! And there is NO 'better' program, for Christ's sake! Beauty is in the eye of the beholder--that saying actually works, you know. There are people out there who use trueSpace, as a matter of fact; the upcoming version 6.0 is surprisingly capable, considering the $600 price tag.

Who are we to judge others based on the computer software they use?

[TheDevil[DK]]

eg. well.. Iv'e seen some very nice pictures postet on the 3dluvr challenge/competition done i smaller 3dapps.. so I'll agree 100%

It's the artist and not the tool that matters !!

[rez]

I guess you could put things in terms of snobs and non-snobs but I use Max now so that would make me a Max snob. :buttrock:

Hears the thing I have gone through a few packages and I am trying to see the forest through the trees.

There is a difference. And In my opinion nurbsSubdivs that Pixar pioneered and Alias was the first to market is the most awesome innovations since probably Box modeling was introduced a million years ago.They fixed the problem with nurbs which was you could not have arbitrary topology. My hope is to see this stuff in Max and all other packages. Not to go haha Maya has this and Max does not. Vendors are like governments the only time they change there policies\products is because customers pull out a big stick and start smashing stuff.

I’m not a C++ programmer so I have no business saying weather the Max or Maya API is better suited for games. I have heard panegyric support for both. I do know that with packages getting bigger with more built in features like particles, physics, fur, cloth and much much cheaper. The justification for Plugging that cost more then the actual package to do one specific task is starting to look very out dated. And on the cost side its just stupid.

Ill try to return this thread to its normally scheduled program "Max 5 features" o-yeah. And Ill take out my aggression on the elderly and small defenseless woodland creatures from know on!

[tAstyBITs]

I'm sorry but the 'true Sub D poly's' stuff means nothing. I don't see how it affects anything unless your a progammer and we're talking about who's code is more efficient.

[rez]

PixelFuk:

If you really want the skinny email me and I'll try to pull up some links for ya. I don’t want to be part of a festering boil on the ass movement or anything :love:and piss people off.

On Topic>>>

I get back to the studio on Friday if this thread is still kickin then Ill post some Info on Max5 we are beta testers.

[Ed Lee]

Originally posted by Fnkymnky

I say we all shut our goddamned mouths, grow up, and be friends. You will NEVER convince the opposing party that they're wrong! And there is NO 'better' program, for Christ's sake!

Who are we to judge others based on the computer software they use?

Damn, a CGI person from Long Island. Why aren't you out there playing Lacrosse?! hah...

Anyway, in some ways it's our nature to feel selfish and put down others. It's a clan mentality. I think through my experience it's the Max users who will usually attack Maya software, and Maya users will attack back. Ya it's silly. But, at least something good may come out of it, hopefully. Unlike the boyz in Pakistan and India. Now, I think you can definitely apply the "grow up and be friends" advice there.

Well, at work...we use Maya, Max and Lightwave, and some in-house software. We use these tools since each of the softwares have something to offer. Max and Lightwave for modeling and Maya for animation. We don't use any of their renderers since the rendering is usually done using the game engine. We use Maya cuz it allows the in-house programmers to write/code certain tasks, and the architecture is deep. I personally use Maya and Lightwave but do some modeling using Max. I like Max Editable Poly feature, something that Maya lacks but I'm sure they'll implement the new set of tools on their next release as more and more gamers are using Maya to do game creation.

I'm looking forward to Max 5, but if it's not worth upgrading I won't cuz Discreet is sticking with their price, which to some legal users is far too expensive still.

Ed--

http://www.edleeart.com

[bologna]

Originally posted by PixelFuk
Okay what the hell is the big deal with true Sud D's and fake Sub D's.

The big difference is what it looks like in the viewport really. No matter what geometry type it is (polys, sub-d's, or NURBS) it all renders out as tri faces in the end.

I think Maya and Lightwave are the only two that have the option to view the mesh as a bezier curves/surfaces. Almost all of them are using the same algorithyms to do the subdivision.

OK, I'll try to stay on the subject now. If anyone does want to know more about sub-d's, here are a couple of links...

http://www.scg.uwaterloo.ca/~hqle/subdivision/

http://grail.cs.washington.edu/projects/subdivision/

[Fnkymnky]

Originally posted by Ed Lee
Damn, a CGI person from Long Island. Why aren't you out there playing Lacrosse?! hah...

It's pronounced "Lawn Guyland", mind you. :p And I'm actually from Jersey. I was born in Manhattan, but ended up being raised in the Ridgewood/Paramus vicinity. Now I'm out here. It's not that bad, really...

But I have no problem with Discreet's pricing system. There's an article on the front CG Channel page right now dealing with the prices of software; this stuff is expensive to upkeep. The industry couldn't support EVERY major 3d package being sold for $2,000 or less. Even at those prices, nobody would sell the required number of extra units to maintain the same profit.

[tAstyBITs]

Digital Video interviewed Discreets VP check it out here (http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/2002/06_jun/features/cw_discreet_iview.htm)

On page four he talks about the Maya dropping it's price.

[rez]

Wow this Lypaczewski guy is even more of a marketing freak then Doug Walker. What in the hell is DMA? Do I need DMA? Sounds like marketing shite.

The thing is that people bought max because it was the only good cheap package out there for a long time, but in 2002?

If these guys don’t drop there price there screwed. You mean to tell me that I’m going to check out lightwave, maya, houdini, soft, and every other package, on the Siggraph floor for Under 2k and then go look at max for 3500$ and get max seats because max has "added value"! This guy needs a serious reality check.

[Ed Lee]

Thanks for posting that article. Anyway, according to RFX, a local reseller when Maya Complete dropped their price they'd a good response and have sold number of copies, including to moi. I don't know the total number of Maya Complete sold to date but the stragedy worked. So, even now Max is keeping their price? They've already lost me as a customer. In order to bring me back Discreet have to give me a good reason. I have yet to hear it...

Now, if they had went ahead and dropped their price as well, I would have gladly upgraded by feeling compelled that they are sensitive to customers and the market trend. Obviously, they're being stubborn.

Ed--

http://www.edleeart.com

[Fnkymnky]

Well, now, he may be a Marketing stooge, but some people, believe it or not, WOULD decide to go with max, even at its current price point (myself included).

NOT simply because the Marketing department tells me to, however; I honestly prefer max to anything else, and that's based on personal experience, not fancy ad campaigns.

I am the decision maker when it comes to my choice of software. Not the manufacturers.

[Mahlon]

I'm afraid we'll be upgrading to Max 5, as well.

M.

[rez]

Yes exactly Ed,

Discreet does not realized that 2000$ is the new defacto price point. That is what the industry expects now. Every other vendor figured this out real quick, cut costs like the lightwave closer in SF and dropped their prices. Alias is attempting a shake out in the 3d market space. And I think it will work. Some one is going to drop. Who and when is another story. But Alias is looking down the road. They are going to check the revenues each quarter and see who is making less and less and then circle in for a kill. They might even drop the price of complete even more if it means bumping some one off. That’s business in an aggressive hyper capitalist economy.

[ambient-whisper]

[[[[[[[[I honestly prefer max to anything else]]]
u used everything else?

[bologna]

I don't know. All the proce dropping seem kinda sketchy to me. I think everyone is dropping prices not because that is what is expected in these down times. I think it's more of trying to grab market share in order to survive.

Lightwave pulled out of GDC this year. Was it because they don't have any interest in the gaming community or because they are running out of money? I don't know the answer for sure, but I'm betting it is because of the latter.

A|W knows where the money is, and are doing a good job at getting their foot in the door. The thing I wonder about here is how and when they are planning on getting more developers to keep Maya going. Plus, will they have enough money to do a total rewrite for a new next generation package(which is rumored that discreet is doing)? Lets face it, even though their mother company is doing better than in the recent past, I still wouldn't call it great.

The reason companies change is because something isn't working. If A|W and NewTek were not in trouble I seriously doubt they would be dropping prices to increase revenue. It's a simple equation we all learned back in economy class in 10th grade. Supply and demand.

I still think A|W will make it though. They are a good company with lots of very talented people at the helm.

As far as discreet is concerned, I don't think that they are in any trouble really. Sure they are hurting because of the economy as well, but they have a thick wallet, and they aren't priced out of reach. I still thing they have a pretty good bang for the buck, IMO.

[Ed Lee]

I've used almost every 3D software there iz. Even some obscure ones like Shade and solidThinking. Heck, even Martin Hash all the way up to Rhythm & Hues' propriety software. Now, that's was a software. But, man it was deep...way deep. Maybe too deep for me. Having used Maya at work, uh....I can't go back to Max.

Now, the news is that Discreet has recruited peeps from NewTek and A/W...maybe it's a good thing. I'm watching closely........

BTW, I wanna Bologna sandwichee.....

Ed--

http://www.edleeart.com

[ambient-whisper]

heh. ed. my post was meant for Fnkymnky :) i already know about your experience :)

[rez]

It's really hard to pin down a single reason for the price drops. It’s a combination of many factors in my estimation. But they are here and it's just a natural part of the tech biz in general. When Intel slashes prices no one goes crap now they won't have any money for R&D for new chips. Alias has the high end market, so they want to expand into other sectors. They have to take bold steps to do that. And I must say It is pretty F*ucking bold. And if a vendor goes down then ALL of the other vendors will swoop down and suck every last user up and smile. The only other way to increase market share is through consolidation and that just don’t seem like it’s going to happen.


Ed: You use Shade that’s deep man.

[xynaria]

Surely the revnues generated by new sales becomes an increasingly smaller percentage of income and rather more is made on upgrades and support, especially if you have an aggresive upgrade policy as both Newtek and A|W appear to have. In theory Maxon are now the third biggest software vendor worldwide. Although I think its a good programme, few would say it outperforms much of the competition so pricing policy and ease of availabilty (something Maxon excelled at) has got to have entered into that equation and some think it is their market share accendance that precipitated LW's price cut as much as A|W's.
What scares me about Discreets attitude is not so much that they didn't seem to respond to A|W's 'broadside' fiscally but that the signals that sends out is one of complacency in what is a very volatile and overheated market. From what has been shown of R5 it is not going to set the world alight but merely make a head nod towards catch up and if Max continues it may be another 18 months before any of its many problems not addressed in this release are countered or it may be the release of the purported rewrite/ new product which is more than well overdue already, according to most. If A|W get anywhere near succeeding in their possible ambition to be the Hoover of 3D software that is sure going to leave Discreets 3D ambitions more thwarted than most. :)

[bologna]

Originally posted by rez
It's really hard to pin down a single reason for the price drops. It’s a combination of many factors in my estimation. But they are here and it's just a natural part of the tech biz in general. When Intel slashes prices no one goes crap now they won't have any money for R&D for new chips. Alias has the high end market, so they want to expand into other sectors. They have to take bold steps to do that. And I must say It is pretty F*ucking bold.

Hey Rez. You are right. Price drops are bound to happen, especially since the market is getting so heated. I do think that a few products will probably fall, it's just a matter of which ones. I don't think it will be either Maya or Max.

As far as comparing Intel slashing prices, that is a totally different ballgame. Everyone and their grandmother has a computer, and most likely it will have a Intel processor in it. I think we will see a slower pace of R&D for the 3d industry. It simply isn't big enough to handle all the different competition. I guess we are just in a sexy field right now. :)

[tAstyBITs]

I'm to sexy for my computer... er 3d software... er...oh never mind.

If max can get their bugs under control I think they'll have a chance. If not I can see them loosing on sales.

I like to find the link to the artical FnkyMnky mentioned about pricing 3d software and profits. I checked cg channel but I couldn't find it.

I always thought Maya droped it price because SGI's where being outclassed by PC's and people didn't want to spend the 60 g's or so for a Maya/SGI seat.

I think it's a good move on Maya's part to drop there price so low nothing like some good old fashioned competition.

Lypaczewski talked about the extra costs for Maya, annual maintenance, learning docs and such with that Max remains at a competitive price. I can see this topic being a big special olympic net argrument, but a important one none the less. I always thought of Max as being expensive if you add up all the great plug-ins.

[Fnkymnky]

Ambient-whisper: Having had some experience with Maya Complete, Lightwave, Softimage XSI, and trueSpace (it's not that bad anymore, seriously; check it out (http://www.caligari.com/) ), I can honestly tell you that yes, even compared to the modeling capabilities of XSI--among other things--I prefer max.

Call me crazy all you want, people; it's an opinion, and I don't have to explain myself to anyone.

I am NOT saying other programs are bad, or incapable of producing good looking work. I'm simply saying that as far as I am concerned, I have a thing for 3ds max.

Speaking of which, has anyone seen the new stories on version 5? Looking pretty sweet, if you ask me...

Oh, and PixelFuk, the article is here (http://www.digitalanimators.com/2002/06_jun/features/affordablemagic.htm) . Gotta love how hard it is to find links to the damned things once they leave the main CG Channel page, huh? :p

[ambient-whisper]

ya i used truespace back at version 3. it was ok. not as bad as some people say.

[Mikkel Jans]

so what are the names the scripts for mestools in maya, and where can we get them?

http://www.maya3d.dk/MEL/MJPolyTools/MJPolyTools.htm

[givetommoney]

thank you so friggin much, i've been needing these for a while now

*closes max, opens maya*

don't get me wrong, i'm still a maxer, but there's nothing wrong with expanding you program knowlege

[Damon]

SO MUCH ARGUING OVER SUCH A CRAP TOPIC!!!
This max vs. maya stuff is truly ridiculous.
It is like saying to a Painter, "dude charcoal is so much better than oils, you should use charcoal, its cheaper, you get better control over the line................."
A truly pointless arguement that alot of you are saying to stay out of...........after you have said what you hate about the opposing software!!

[Knut]

Somebody has probably posted this before me, but here are a few videos of the new baby in action.

http://www.discreet.com/emea/webstream/

Press "video on demand" to get your juices flowing.

Enjoy.

[sam]

. . . .

I wouldn't throw NLA out of the running yet for this release cycle. Remember, we haven't heard anything about Character Studio 4 and discreet historically reserves some key functionality for that package. It would make strong sense to me since Character Studio has a clunky implementation of NLA already and they probably sense the need to give Character Studio a stronger raison d'etre since 3ds max 5 will have such powerful character animation tools right out of the box. Sure, I am being speculative here, but given that Discreet will reserve some great new feature(s) with Character Studio to sell copies of it, what do you think that new feature(s) will be?

. . . .

All in all, I am happy with what I am seeing so far with 3ds max 5. I like that they are incorporating better polygonal tools, dynamics, animation editors, rendering capabilities, and uvw editing. Reactor's dynamics are VERY powerful and the UVW editing will put Max 5 on top in texturing capability. I think they could have included some Lite version of Combustion into 3ds max if just that the old video post compositor bundled with 3ds max 4 seems out of place for Discreet, the leading provider of high-end composting systems.

. . . .

Also, two things are rather curious to me. First, is the large team of developers and the somewhat modest set of new features (especially compared to the plethora of new features that max 4 introduced). Does this mean that an unstated feature addition will be rock-solid stability and super-broad hardware compatibility? [For comparison, if you recall, the Maya 4 upgrade was a "maintenance" upgrade and it offered scant little in the way of new features.] Or does this mean that they are dedicating a lot of R&D resources to a revolutionary rewrite of the base package for Max 6? Only time will tell. ;)

sam

[thedaemon]

:buttrock: I am also happy with max 5. I mean, it may be small updates, but like sam suggested, hopefully 5.3 or whatever they make it, will be rock solid. I really count on my apps to work flawlessly, and I rarely have a crash in max 4.2. :shrug: May just be me but I do wish that this stuff would have been in 4.2 and 5 would have been other stuff.

One thing about Discreet I hate is..... Character studio, Reactor (although its in 5), combustion, etc... why they hell did they make these extensions to max?? I mean come on, that's lame. :annoyed:


Anyways, I am glad you people stopped talking about how lw/maya/monkey butt was better than max. :lightbulb that's not what this thread is 'bout.

[eek]

WOW!!...
Its taken me about 25 mins too read all those posts, and it seems like its going in circles! All i care about is getting the job done, easily and well and from using all the major packages, i still return to max, its nice to use and with 5 it'll have virtually all the same tools as everything else has....now dont get me started on Lightwave ehh!

Eek

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