Dubbie
10-03-2003, 12:21 AM
http://www.shacknews.com/ja.zz?comments=28619
It's a sad day for all those looking forward to purchasing this game.
:hmm:
Rhys.
It's a sad day for all those looking forward to purchasing this game.
:hmm:
Rhys.
View Full Version : Half-Life 2 Source Code Stolen/Leaked
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Renzsu
10-03-2003, 12:46 AM
Hope this won't mess with the release of the game.. like delaying it further :(
clockwerkz
10-03-2003, 01:06 AM
I can't even begin to type my anger at this because I'll probably get kicked off with all the profanity.
That is one sad state of affairs. I hope whoever is responsible or whoever KNOWS who's responsible chimes in and gets rid of the code before doing any damage with it.
cW
PS- I also hope it doesn't delay the shipment of the game.
Shame on whoever did it. :shame:
That is one sad state of affairs. I hope whoever is responsible or whoever KNOWS who's responsible chimes in and gets rid of the code before doing any damage with it.
cW
PS- I also hope it doesn't delay the shipment of the game.
Shame on whoever did it. :shame:
Shade01
10-03-2003, 01:14 AM
Remember when ATI was closely associating themselves with Doom 3 and then the D3 alpha leaked on the heels of a big ATI announcement? The curse of ATI strikes again!
erilaz
10-03-2003, 01:58 AM
Oh well, I guess if any engine comes out with similar hallmarks as the HL2 engine, they can scrutinise it.
Goon
10-03-2003, 03:10 AM
all that work only to have it stolen. the coders must be devastated.
Thien
10-03-2003, 03:24 AM
Oh well, I guess if any engine comes out with similar hallmarks as the HL2 engine, they can scrutinise it.
I have reviewed the source and the source tree is for a fact from E3. Which means alot of the code was thrown together and hacked up so that it would work for E3. Which also means if anyone wanted to use this as a engine they would have heck of a time doing so, not to mention there ARE security features in the source.
Also the source is no way buildable\compilable not to mention no one has the resources such as art\models\sounds\maps\etc so the game cannot be played.
I wander what this might mean for Valve? if it is legit then it can mean trouble, not only will cheaters have a huge advantage but the source seems to containt Copyright Havok Physics and Miles sound code. This can bring huge problems to Valve if these companys should take legal action.
By the way I am new to these forums hehe I am a programmer, though I have sort of lost interest thats why I am moving to 3D Modeling \ 3D Animation it seems very interesting, though if anyone has questions regarding C\C++ I would be glad to help in anyway I can.
Thien
I have reviewed the source and the source tree is for a fact from E3. Which means alot of the code was thrown together and hacked up so that it would work for E3. Which also means if anyone wanted to use this as a engine they would have heck of a time doing so, not to mention there ARE security features in the source.
Also the source is no way buildable\compilable not to mention no one has the resources such as art\models\sounds\maps\etc so the game cannot be played.
I wander what this might mean for Valve? if it is legit then it can mean trouble, not only will cheaters have a huge advantage but the source seems to containt Copyright Havok Physics and Miles sound code. This can bring huge problems to Valve if these companys should take legal action.
By the way I am new to these forums hehe I am a programmer, though I have sort of lost interest thats why I am moving to 3D Modeling \ 3D Animation it seems very interesting, though if anyone has questions regarding C\C++ I would be glad to help in anyway I can.
Thien
innervision961
10-03-2003, 03:29 AM
Ugh! This pisses me off so much, these poor guys have been working their tales off trying to get this game as good as gold when they ship only to have someone steal their work, its horrible, especially when you figure the valve guys have spent the last five years of their lives trying to give us hl fans an expierence we won't soon forget and some one comes in and mucks with it for no good reason... what a shame, i hope the perp is caught and prosecuted to the fullest extent!:shame:
Bluplet
10-03-2003, 03:34 AM
That's quite a nasty thing to happen!
I do wonder why the heck they were using outlook express for email instead of something else less exploited!
I do wonder why the heck they were using outlook express for email instead of something else less exploited!
nathan 3d
10-03-2003, 03:51 AM
I thought Outlook was used only by people who didn't know any better. 50yo couples who like to email their kids. Its been known to have security problems.
WiseElben
10-03-2003, 03:59 AM
I found the source code via google. I won't link though. I didn't download it since I want to buy HL2 legitly.:)
Neil
10-03-2003, 04:14 AM
Am i the only one who finds this a bit weird?
Why would source code be accessable from an outside network? and why wouldn't it have better protection? and why would gabe chose to post on shacknews?!
Why would source code be accessable from an outside network? and why wouldn't it have better protection? and why would gabe chose to post on shacknews?!
Thien
10-03-2003, 04:58 AM
Usually when software is leaked it is leaked from an outside network.
BiTMAP
10-03-2003, 07:05 AM
:annoyed: :annoyed: :thumbsdow :shame: :argh: :banghead: :mad: :cry: :annoyed:
richcz3
10-03-2003, 08:00 AM
Too many media shows by Gabe lately.
Remember the email at Valve was suposedly down a few days ago. Then Shaknews recieved an email that the game was not going to ship on Sept 30.
I wonder if in that the time period they were trying to put out what to do about the leak. Kinda damage control. One shutting off any Internet access then contacting all their partners, vendors, and publishers. At least it appears that they decided to ship the game. If that's the way it played out.
How in the world did they have keep those files that accessable. Their IT guy must be looking for a pizza job about now. Gabe has to be looking like a real incompetent manager right now. The guys at id Software and nVidia are probably on the ground dieing of laughter. What a mess.
richcz3
Remember the email at Valve was suposedly down a few days ago. Then Shaknews recieved an email that the game was not going to ship on Sept 30.
I wonder if in that the time period they were trying to put out what to do about the leak. Kinda damage control. One shutting off any Internet access then contacting all their partners, vendors, and publishers. At least it appears that they decided to ship the game. If that's the way it played out.
How in the world did they have keep those files that accessable. Their IT guy must be looking for a pizza job about now. Gabe has to be looking like a real incompetent manager right now. The guys at id Software and nVidia are probably on the ground dieing of laughter. What a mess.
richcz3
spacefrog
10-03-2003, 08:54 AM
this looks for real
it looks like a complete tree of sourcecode from valve, including
steam (the new engine) and the old HL,CS etc... source
Gabe posted on the Halflife2- forum first - not shaknews
it looks like a complete tree of sourcecode from valve, including
steam (the new engine) and the old HL,CS etc... source
Gabe posted on the Halflife2- forum first - not shaknews
Jhonus
10-03-2003, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by richcz3
The guys at id Software and nVidia are probably on the ground dieing of laughter. What a mess.
I don't think anyone will be laughing. I suspect they will be feeling vulnerable and double checking that it won't happen to them.
The guys at id Software and nVidia are probably on the ground dieing of laughter. What a mess.
I don't think anyone will be laughing. I suspect they will be feeling vulnerable and double checking that it won't happen to them.
Cyborgguineapig
10-03-2003, 11:59 AM
All I have to say is...
"Oh my god!!!!":sad:
"Oh my god!!!!":sad:
Para
10-03-2003, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by Thien
Also the source is no way buildable\compilable not to mention no one has the resources such as art\models\sounds\maps\etc so the game cannot be played.
Actually you are able to compile the Source (pun intended) and you even get executables for HL2 and TF2 but you can't use them because you don't have any resource files.
Anyway. This certainly does suck.
Also the source is no way buildable\compilable not to mention no one has the resources such as art\models\sounds\maps\etc so the game cannot be played.
Actually you are able to compile the Source (pun intended) and you even get executables for HL2 and TF2 but you can't use them because you don't have any resource files.
Anyway. This certainly does suck.
mbxsi
10-03-2003, 05:30 PM
oh man. this is so "amateur" at valve...
if they can't even setup proper, secure networks.
if they can't even setup proper, secure networks.
Supervlieg
10-03-2003, 06:56 PM
I dont see how this can keep them from finishing the game. So some work is public, I think only valve has the ability to finish it. Shame for them some might have access to their secrets. But thats just stupid, they should have a more secure network.
I dont think it will influence the work that will result in a great game! Perhaps gamers can profit because pretty soon every programming team will be able to churn out beautiful games. If they will play as well remains to be seen. So valve will still come out a winner.
I do think the actions of the hackers was wrong and they should be punished.
I dont think it will influence the work that will result in a great game! Perhaps gamers can profit because pretty soon every programming team will be able to churn out beautiful games. If they will play as well remains to be seen. So valve will still come out a winner.
I do think the actions of the hackers was wrong and they should be punished.
bentllama
10-03-2003, 07:18 PM
Gabe Newell has responded:
Ever have one of those weeks? This has just not been the best couple of days for me or for Valve.
Yes, the source code that has been posted is the HL-2 source code.
Here is what we know:
1) Starting around 9/11 of this year, someone other than me was accessing my email account. This has been determined by looking at traffic on our email server versus my travel schedule.
2) Shortly afterwards my machine started acting weird (right-clicking on executables would crash explorer). I was unable to find a virus or trojan on my machine, I reformatted my hard drive, and reinstalled.
3) For the next week, there appears to have been suspicious activity on my webmail account.
4) Around 9/19 someone made a copy of the HL-2 source tree.
5) At some point, keystroke recorders got installed on several machines at Valve. Our speculation is that these were done via a buffer overflow in Outlook's preview pane. This recorder is apparently a customized version of RemoteAnywhere created to infect Valve (at least it hasn't been seen anywhere else, and isn't detected by normal virus scanning tools).
6) Periodically for the last year we've been the subject of a variety of denial of service attacks targetted at our webservers and at Steam. We don't know if these are related or independent.
Well, this sucks.
What I'd appreciate is the assistance of the community in tracking this down. I have a special email address for people to send information to, helpvalve@valvesoftware.com. If you have information about the denial of service attacks or the infiltration of our network, please send the details. There are some pretty obvious places to start with the posts and records in IRC, so if you can point us in the right direction, that would be great.
We at Valve have always thought of ourselves as being part of a community, and I can't imagine a better group of people to help us take care of these problems than this community.
Gabe
Ever have one of those weeks? This has just not been the best couple of days for me or for Valve.
Yes, the source code that has been posted is the HL-2 source code.
Here is what we know:
1) Starting around 9/11 of this year, someone other than me was accessing my email account. This has been determined by looking at traffic on our email server versus my travel schedule.
2) Shortly afterwards my machine started acting weird (right-clicking on executables would crash explorer). I was unable to find a virus or trojan on my machine, I reformatted my hard drive, and reinstalled.
3) For the next week, there appears to have been suspicious activity on my webmail account.
4) Around 9/19 someone made a copy of the HL-2 source tree.
5) At some point, keystroke recorders got installed on several machines at Valve. Our speculation is that these were done via a buffer overflow in Outlook's preview pane. This recorder is apparently a customized version of RemoteAnywhere created to infect Valve (at least it hasn't been seen anywhere else, and isn't detected by normal virus scanning tools).
6) Periodically for the last year we've been the subject of a variety of denial of service attacks targetted at our webservers and at Steam. We don't know if these are related or independent.
Well, this sucks.
What I'd appreciate is the assistance of the community in tracking this down. I have a special email address for people to send information to, helpvalve@valvesoftware.com. If you have information about the denial of service attacks or the infiltration of our network, please send the details. There are some pretty obvious places to start with the posts and records in IRC, so if you can point us in the right direction, that would be great.
We at Valve have always thought of ourselves as being part of a community, and I can't imagine a better group of people to help us take care of these problems than this community.
Gabe
trthing
10-03-2003, 09:28 PM
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,4149,1307532,00.asp
Another suit coming?;)
Another suit coming?;)
richcz3
10-03-2003, 10:44 PM
The theft of the code, which was made available for download on the Net, came after a monthlong concerted effort by hackers to infiltrate Valve's network. Malicious activity in the Valve network included denial-of-service attacks, suspicious e-mail activity and the installation of keystroke loggers, Newell added.
This is absurd...month long!.
Day 5
Employee: Boss, it is clear we have someone trying to break into our network. Shouldn't we isolate our Internet connections to make sure that nothing is stolen."
Gabe: No, I need an active net connection. I need to read the HL2 previews and statements of fans on the forums.
Employee: You can still do that boss, we can just make a workstation in the next office.
Gabe: Have you not seen how big I've gotten since E3. Christ I can't even see my feet. That's an absurd notion. I am not the agile young sprite I was err many years ago. Again NO. I need to access to the Net and the Source files right here from this disk.
Day 28
Employee: Sir we've been comprimised. It looks like teh hacker that has been causing us great difficulty for the past month finally got what he came for. Sir, he/she took a copy of the entire Source code.
What should we do now?
Gabe: (silence...murmer). Ok, cut off all email and Net connections while I think of what to do. Call our partners and publisher and let them know whats happened. They are not going to believe this. I don't believe this. Who could have seen this coming?
:scream:
richcz3
This is absurd...month long!.
Day 5
Employee: Boss, it is clear we have someone trying to break into our network. Shouldn't we isolate our Internet connections to make sure that nothing is stolen."
Gabe: No, I need an active net connection. I need to read the HL2 previews and statements of fans on the forums.
Employee: You can still do that boss, we can just make a workstation in the next office.
Gabe: Have you not seen how big I've gotten since E3. Christ I can't even see my feet. That's an absurd notion. I am not the agile young sprite I was err many years ago. Again NO. I need to access to the Net and the Source files right here from this disk.
Day 28
Employee: Sir we've been comprimised. It looks like teh hacker that has been causing us great difficulty for the past month finally got what he came for. Sir, he/she took a copy of the entire Source code.
What should we do now?
Gabe: (silence...murmer). Ok, cut off all email and Net connections while I think of what to do. Call our partners and publisher and let them know whats happened. They are not going to believe this. I don't believe this. Who could have seen this coming?
:scream:
richcz3
iC4
10-03-2003, 11:08 PM
well the only problem I see is that cheaters will have an easy life
googlo
10-04-2003, 12:53 AM
Bentllama, you forgot the nuking of families part!
IC4,
Well, I think a bigger problem would be that people can gather insights from the code for their own companies benefit that the people of Valve or whatever spent their own resources for over the the last couple of years.
How do they know that someone or a group of people working at valve didn't contributed to this from the inside?
IC4,
Well, I think a bigger problem would be that people can gather insights from the code for their own companies benefit that the people of Valve or whatever spent their own resources for over the the last couple of years.
How do they know that someone or a group of people working at valve didn't contributed to this from the inside?
Neil
10-04-2003, 12:55 AM
Don't they release the majority of the code anyway, for moding?
I thought RTCW released their eventually.
I'm just asking, that's all, not reasoning the situation :)
I thought RTCW released their eventually.
I'm just asking, that's all, not reasoning the situation :)
allseeingi
10-04-2003, 01:52 AM
oh man. this is so "amateur" at valve...
mbxsi, I don't mean to be rude but I presume you don't work in IT. I wonder if you would like to try and setup a completely secure network. You have Microsoft's security issues to battle on one hand, virus' and hackers on another and (a minority of) inscrupulous users on yet another. You can tackle the first two with reasonable success with a LOT of effort using hardware and software updates, but in a world where you can download the entire contents of a server to your iPod, the third problem is in one way or another impossible to cover.
Although there are some high profile examples, breaking through to a LAN from the internet is extremely difficult. So given that everyone on that team knew how valuable that sourcecode is, what's more likely? Someone internal ripped them off or an external group spent a huge amount of time and effort hacking in to mail, laying down key loggers that reported back magically bypassing their firewall and then obtained data directly from their file servers?
And of course they would admit that wouldn't they?
- allseeingi
mbxsi, I don't mean to be rude but I presume you don't work in IT. I wonder if you would like to try and setup a completely secure network. You have Microsoft's security issues to battle on one hand, virus' and hackers on another and (a minority of) inscrupulous users on yet another. You can tackle the first two with reasonable success with a LOT of effort using hardware and software updates, but in a world where you can download the entire contents of a server to your iPod, the third problem is in one way or another impossible to cover.
Although there are some high profile examples, breaking through to a LAN from the internet is extremely difficult. So given that everyone on that team knew how valuable that sourcecode is, what's more likely? Someone internal ripped them off or an external group spent a huge amount of time and effort hacking in to mail, laying down key loggers that reported back magically bypassing their firewall and then obtained data directly from their file servers?
And of course they would admit that wouldn't they?
- allseeingi
trthing
10-04-2003, 02:03 AM
Originally posted by richcz3
The theft of the code, which was made available for download on the Net, came after a monthlong concerted effort by hackers to infiltrate Valve's network. Malicious activity in the Valve network included denial-of-service attacks, suspicious e-mail activity and the installation of keystroke loggers, Newell added.
This is absurd...month long!.
Day 5
Employee: Boss, it is clear we have someone trying to break into our network. Shouldn't we isolate our Internet connections to make sure that nothing is stolen."
Gabe: No, I need an active net connection. I need to read the HL2 previews and statements of fans on the forums.
Employee: You can still do that boss, we can just make a workstation in the next office.
Gabe: Have you not seen how big I've gotten since E3. Christ I can't even see my feet. That's an absurd notion. I am not the agile young sprite I was err many years ago. Again NO. I need to access to the Net and the Source files right here from this disk.
Day 28
Employee: Sir we've been comprimised. It looks like teh hacker that has been causing us great difficulty for the past month finally got what he came for. Sir, he/she took a copy of the entire Source code.
What should we do now?
Gabe: (silence...murmer). Ok, cut off all email and Net connections while I think of what to do. Call our partners and publisher and let them know whats happened. They are not going to believe this. I don't believe this. Who could have seen this coming?
:scream:
richcz3
LOL
The theft of the code, which was made available for download on the Net, came after a monthlong concerted effort by hackers to infiltrate Valve's network. Malicious activity in the Valve network included denial-of-service attacks, suspicious e-mail activity and the installation of keystroke loggers, Newell added.
This is absurd...month long!.
Day 5
Employee: Boss, it is clear we have someone trying to break into our network. Shouldn't we isolate our Internet connections to make sure that nothing is stolen."
Gabe: No, I need an active net connection. I need to read the HL2 previews and statements of fans on the forums.
Employee: You can still do that boss, we can just make a workstation in the next office.
Gabe: Have you not seen how big I've gotten since E3. Christ I can't even see my feet. That's an absurd notion. I am not the agile young sprite I was err many years ago. Again NO. I need to access to the Net and the Source files right here from this disk.
Day 28
Employee: Sir we've been comprimised. It looks like teh hacker that has been causing us great difficulty for the past month finally got what he came for. Sir, he/she took a copy of the entire Source code.
What should we do now?
Gabe: (silence...murmer). Ok, cut off all email and Net connections while I think of what to do. Call our partners and publisher and let them know whats happened. They are not going to believe this. I don't believe this. Who could have seen this coming?
:scream:
richcz3
LOL
Thien
10-04-2003, 02:08 AM
Don't they release the majority of the code anyway, for moding?
No they release the SDK (Software Developers Kit)
No they release the SDK (Software Developers Kit)
dudeguy
10-04-2003, 06:53 AM
This doesn't suprise me at all.
After waiting for Valve to release Team Fortress 2 for god knows how long (maybe 2-3 years?) with screen shots, videos, details and then...notta.
It makes me wonder how logical Valve's thought process is, seems to me like they are overshooting what they are really capable of, which I've seen a number of places do, which unfortunately means the demise of the project and the company.
Any company can put together high res models and textures with an engine that it will run on an absurdly beefed up machine, but bottom line for a game to be successful is it needs to run and run well. All the graphics in the world aren't going to make the average gamer pick up a copy if the gameplay is weak because it runs poorly.
When they announced that Half Life 2 would have Sub D surfaces in game, something about that didn't sit right with me. While I can see this happening shortly down the road, right now it seems impractical. From my experience with Sub Ds, they add so much extra geometry that will never been seen by the camera (hidden control cage I'm talking) plus they require extra nodes and calculations which really decreases rendering speeds, doesn't seem practical for games...yet. I'm thinking maybe what they used instead of Sub Ds to fool viewers is normal mapping for the demos, not actual sub ds, that would make more sense considering that they are developing closely with ATI which has better support for normal mapping than Nvidia, I don't know enough about normal mapping though to make a solid conclusion on that.
The whole things sounds sketchy, let's just say I'm not placing any bets on Valve or Half Life 2 being Game of the Year anytime soon, time will tell though I guess.
After waiting for Valve to release Team Fortress 2 for god knows how long (maybe 2-3 years?) with screen shots, videos, details and then...notta.
It makes me wonder how logical Valve's thought process is, seems to me like they are overshooting what they are really capable of, which I've seen a number of places do, which unfortunately means the demise of the project and the company.
Any company can put together high res models and textures with an engine that it will run on an absurdly beefed up machine, but bottom line for a game to be successful is it needs to run and run well. All the graphics in the world aren't going to make the average gamer pick up a copy if the gameplay is weak because it runs poorly.
When they announced that Half Life 2 would have Sub D surfaces in game, something about that didn't sit right with me. While I can see this happening shortly down the road, right now it seems impractical. From my experience with Sub Ds, they add so much extra geometry that will never been seen by the camera (hidden control cage I'm talking) plus they require extra nodes and calculations which really decreases rendering speeds, doesn't seem practical for games...yet. I'm thinking maybe what they used instead of Sub Ds to fool viewers is normal mapping for the demos, not actual sub ds, that would make more sense considering that they are developing closely with ATI which has better support for normal mapping than Nvidia, I don't know enough about normal mapping though to make a solid conclusion on that.
The whole things sounds sketchy, let's just say I'm not placing any bets on Valve or Half Life 2 being Game of the Year anytime soon, time will tell though I guess.
BiTMAP
10-04-2003, 09:34 AM
er.... halflife2 doesn't use Sub-D ??? I don't know where you heard that... Halflife2 uses normals mapping like you said.
and I believe HL2 will be a large sucess in the long hual again because of the modable engine (unlike Doom3).
and I believe HL2 will be a large sucess in the long hual again because of the modable engine (unlike Doom3).
dudeguy
10-04-2003, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by BiTMAP
er.... halflife2 doesn't use Sub-D ??? I don't know where you heard that... Halflife2 uses normals mapping like you said. I could have sworn in one of the first look tech demo movies around the time of e3 when they are talking about how they made the sets, they mention sub division surfaces, it immediately struck me as odd. Can't seem to track down the video... *search search*
but they mention "bump map sub division surfaces" here(midway down the page): http://www.karljones.com/halflife2/preview.asp
bump map sub division surfaces...whatever the hell that means...
maybe they mean displacement mapping? I think you're right, they must mean normal mapping? bump map sub division surfaces...that's a new one...sounds misleading of geometry sub ds, I wonder if the folks at Valve have ever heard of Catmull and Clark?
and I believe HL2 will be a large sucess in the long hual again because of the modable engine (unlike Doom3). It might be successful if it ever comes out.
er.... halflife2 doesn't use Sub-D ??? I don't know where you heard that... Halflife2 uses normals mapping like you said. I could have sworn in one of the first look tech demo movies around the time of e3 when they are talking about how they made the sets, they mention sub division surfaces, it immediately struck me as odd. Can't seem to track down the video... *search search*
but they mention "bump map sub division surfaces" here(midway down the page): http://www.karljones.com/halflife2/preview.asp
bump map sub division surfaces...whatever the hell that means...
maybe they mean displacement mapping? I think you're right, they must mean normal mapping? bump map sub division surfaces...that's a new one...sounds misleading of geometry sub ds, I wonder if the folks at Valve have ever heard of Catmull and Clark?
and I believe HL2 will be a large sucess in the long hual again because of the modable engine (unlike Doom3). It might be successful if it ever comes out.
dmaas
10-04-2003, 02:09 PM
I don't know if I'd trust info like that. Probably 80% of journalist reports on graphics technology are distorted or inaccurate in some way. It could be that they used Sub-D surfaces in Maya or Lightwave or whatever when modeling assets, and then baked them into polygons for the game engine.
Quake 3: Arena had LOD on curved surfaces. I don't think it was dynamic though - it just switched between ~3 fixed LOD models. But it didn't really add all that much to graphics quality or speed, so people usually turned it off.
Quake 3: Arena had LOD on curved surfaces. I don't think it was dynamic though - it just switched between ~3 fixed LOD models. But it didn't really add all that much to graphics quality or speed, so people usually turned it off.
ambient-whisper
10-04-2003, 03:51 PM
they mentioned the whole subd dealio right at the beginning, in the video where they are showcasing the neato shaders.. and displaced ground. back at e3.
richcz3
10-04-2003, 06:40 PM
I do not subscribe to conspiracy theories, but I can't for the life of explain away the inept handeling of Valves current crisis. I also can not say I have specifically followed the company over the years, but there have been allot of promises made and missed. Team Fortress 2 being one of them.
Guesing Game
I believe that that two months before E3 Valve thought they had the engine cinched. They were on track. The DX9 problems with nVidia were already glaringly apearent. Valve possibly partly pressured by Vivendi decided that the show must go on, and made the decision to showcase HL2 at E3 if they were going to generate a buzz for the Holiday season.
Early August brought the DX9 scandal to the forefront. nVidia quick to note it's million backed user base and seemingly/quietly moves to the sidelines.
Valve evaluates HL2 seeing looming September deadline and and internaly concludes there is no way they are going to make the deadline, or even release it in 2003.
Thats Just Absolute Nonsense
A decision is made to publicaly announce a new ambiguous delivery date.
Stuck between a rock and a hard place, Valve takes a page from their own conspiracy plot theories and arranges a preposterous month long hacker scenario and release Source code without any of the artwork or other game elements. ? How convenient.
Look you can see Team Fortress in there. Look you can see the Havok engine. (This is much like the old Uboats blowing garbage, clothes, and oil through the torpedo tubes to escape depth charges.)
Shifting gears, Valve internaly designates a new shipping date for 2004. Publicaly they will announce that the unfortunate incident has rendered the Holiday season lost. They will need to redo much of the code released for an assortment of reasons.
The whole time never caring to mind the lead tips on the purpotrator(s) who stole the code.
richcz3
Guesing Game
I believe that that two months before E3 Valve thought they had the engine cinched. They were on track. The DX9 problems with nVidia were already glaringly apearent. Valve possibly partly pressured by Vivendi decided that the show must go on, and made the decision to showcase HL2 at E3 if they were going to generate a buzz for the Holiday season.
Early August brought the DX9 scandal to the forefront. nVidia quick to note it's million backed user base and seemingly/quietly moves to the sidelines.
Valve evaluates HL2 seeing looming September deadline and and internaly concludes there is no way they are going to make the deadline, or even release it in 2003.
Thats Just Absolute Nonsense
A decision is made to publicaly announce a new ambiguous delivery date.
Stuck between a rock and a hard place, Valve takes a page from their own conspiracy plot theories and arranges a preposterous month long hacker scenario and release Source code without any of the artwork or other game elements. ? How convenient.
Look you can see Team Fortress in there. Look you can see the Havok engine. (This is much like the old Uboats blowing garbage, clothes, and oil through the torpedo tubes to escape depth charges.)
Shifting gears, Valve internaly designates a new shipping date for 2004. Publicaly they will announce that the unfortunate incident has rendered the Holiday season lost. They will need to redo much of the code released for an assortment of reasons.
The whole time never caring to mind the lead tips on the purpotrator(s) who stole the code.
richcz3
Thien
10-04-2003, 08:07 PM
and I believe HL2 will be a large sucess in the long hual again because of the modable engine (unlike Doom3).
Valve has allways supported the modding community as much as it can in anyway. Of course in HL2 they will support it even more and the SDK will be even better.
Doom 3 will aslo have a great modding community.
You can check out all the Doom 3 modifications at http://www.moddb.com/
Thien
Valve has allways supported the modding community as much as it can in anyway. Of course in HL2 they will support it even more and the SDK will be even better.
Doom 3 will aslo have a great modding community.
You can check out all the Doom 3 modifications at http://www.moddb.com/
Thien
off-center
10-04-2003, 10:24 PM
the only problem with the leaking is that with the release hacks will be avaible, no company is stupid enough to use the source code or use techniques from the source code cause they will be in serious problem when they get busted. For the mod / non-commercial community it's a great source of info, but this doesn't justify the fact it's stolen.
Thien
10-05-2003, 01:58 AM
the only problem with the leaking is that with the release hacks will be avaible
I beg to differ, now Valve will change alot of server side functions so that hacks will not be compatible with the new release of HL2.
For the mod / non-commercial community it's a great source of info, but this doesn't justify the fact it's stolen.
Sure its a great source of info, the modding community still will not be able to use this source as it is the engine source code, onec the HL2 SDK is released they will not have any access to the engine source code.
Thien
I beg to differ, now Valve will change alot of server side functions so that hacks will not be compatible with the new release of HL2.
For the mod / non-commercial community it's a great source of info, but this doesn't justify the fact it's stolen.
Sure its a great source of info, the modding community still will not be able to use this source as it is the engine source code, onec the HL2 SDK is released they will not have any access to the engine source code.
Thien
innervision961
10-05-2003, 02:28 AM
how do fix a leaky valve? I guess you tighten the gearbox, because when you run out of water it will be like the sierra :D
Man i just hope hl2 doesn't dissapear... I really want the game!
Man i just hope hl2 doesn't dissapear... I really want the game!
RobertoOrtiz
10-05-2003, 03:07 AM
WIRED: Game Biz Mystified by Code Theft
In one of the highest-profile cases of cybercrime to hit the gaming industry, the source code for Half-Life 2 -- one of the year's most-anticipated games -- was stolen and released over the Internet, developer Valve said Thursday.
Valve went into radio silence Friday and did not offer any insights into the motive behind the theft. >>link<< (http://www.wired.com/news/games/0,2101,60701,00.html)
-R
In one of the highest-profile cases of cybercrime to hit the gaming industry, the source code for Half-Life 2 -- one of the year's most-anticipated games -- was stolen and released over the Internet, developer Valve said Thursday.
Valve went into radio silence Friday and did not offer any insights into the motive behind the theft. >>link<< (http://www.wired.com/news/games/0,2101,60701,00.html)
-R
CHRiTTeR
10-05-2003, 05:57 AM
I'm totaly amazed...
How could this happen?
I mean, if u can program something like the Vsource2-engine then u are suposed to know a bit about computers. And if u read how this happened... Well it doesnt make much sence to me. Everybody knows that microsoft's software (in this case outlook) has dozens of security issues. So how could it be that Valve simply 'let' someone download their code? And don't they use more secure/stable software for such project (unix or something)
From what I've read I think there's a huge possibilty that there's an 'unclean'(s) person at the inside of the valve core. Or maybe it's an excuse for more delay or some extra publiciy stunt? Who knows.
What amazes me the most is that it was downloaded while they knew there was some-1 hacking through their system.
I don't know much about programming, hacking and security systems but doesn't it take a huge amount of time to download the sourcecode of a game via the net (Isn't the sourcecode much bigger then the compiled version). If so, how did they not saw someone was downloading it while they knew about the hacker?
I may say some really stupid remarks here (probably, like I said I know nothing about programming, hacking and security systems). If so, plz educate me :p and explain these things a bit more indepth.
I Thanks,
CHRiTTeR
How could this happen?
I mean, if u can program something like the Vsource2-engine then u are suposed to know a bit about computers. And if u read how this happened... Well it doesnt make much sence to me. Everybody knows that microsoft's software (in this case outlook) has dozens of security issues. So how could it be that Valve simply 'let' someone download their code? And don't they use more secure/stable software for such project (unix or something)
From what I've read I think there's a huge possibilty that there's an 'unclean'(s) person at the inside of the valve core. Or maybe it's an excuse for more delay or some extra publiciy stunt? Who knows.
What amazes me the most is that it was downloaded while they knew there was some-1 hacking through their system.
I don't know much about programming, hacking and security systems but doesn't it take a huge amount of time to download the sourcecode of a game via the net (Isn't the sourcecode much bigger then the compiled version). If so, how did they not saw someone was downloading it while they knew about the hacker?
I may say some really stupid remarks here (probably, like I said I know nothing about programming, hacking and security systems). If so, plz educate me :p and explain these things a bit more indepth.
I Thanks,
CHRiTTeR
CHRiTTeR
10-05-2003, 06:13 AM
Ow yeah,
Somebody mentioned the art wasn't included soo, u can't doo much with it... but can't u create your own art and use that?
And,
On some sites I read the whole tree was downloaded and on others that it was just part of it...
Finaly someone sews microsoft for the flaw security. YIHAAA
Somebody mentioned the art wasn't included soo, u can't doo much with it... but can't u create your own art and use that?
And,
On some sites I read the whole tree was downloaded and on others that it was just part of it...
Finaly someone sews microsoft for the flaw security. YIHAAA
Knut
10-05-2003, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by CHRiTTeR
Finaly someone sews microsoft for the flaw security. YIHAAA [/B]
That would be nice, but does not the EULA in microsoft products state that "they" are NOT responsible for anything that happens if/when you use the software? I'm not sure, but that would mean they will never get sued over something like this.
Finaly someone sews microsoft for the flaw security. YIHAAA [/B]
That would be nice, but does not the EULA in microsoft products state that "they" are NOT responsible for anything that happens if/when you use the software? I'm not sure, but that would mean they will never get sued over something like this.
CGmonkey
10-05-2003, 02:56 PM
richcz3 - you sounded pretty ridiculous with that waterproof conspiration theory.. You're too paraonid! ;) hehe
Valve works their asses of themself to create one of the most impressive games EVER (possibly) and making games that will ENTERTAIN you.. Still you go around dissing them.. hmm :]
Anyway.. Lets just hope that they'll catch the hacker!
Valve works their asses of themself to create one of the most impressive games EVER (possibly) and making games that will ENTERTAIN you.. Still you go around dissing them.. hmm :]
Anyway.. Lets just hope that they'll catch the hacker!
Zastrozzi
10-05-2003, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by Knut
That would be nice, but does not the EULA in microsoft products state that "they" are NOT responsible for anything that happens if/when you use the software? I'm not sure, but that would mean they will never get sued over something like this.
well the eula has never been tested in court as far as I know and although I'm not a lawyer or anything I beleive that it has no value in court.... kinda like non compition clauses in contracts after you are fired
That would be nice, but does not the EULA in microsoft products state that "they" are NOT responsible for anything that happens if/when you use the software? I'm not sure, but that would mean they will never get sued over something like this.
well the eula has never been tested in court as far as I know and although I'm not a lawyer or anything I beleive that it has no value in court.... kinda like non compition clauses in contracts after you are fired
klingspor
10-05-2003, 05:14 PM
I don't think they have a case against Microsoft... from what I've read, their security measures were just short of ridiculous... now of course it's easy to go out and blame bad ol' Microsoft, but then again being allowed to access the source-code from an internet-enabled machine is about the stupidest thing you could come up with. Especially considering their product is one of the most anticipated games in recent history, it's a sure target for hackers...
And believe it or not: even a non-MS OS is insecure if you don't know what you're doing... :shrug:
And believe it or not: even a non-MS OS is insecure if you don't know what you're doing... :shrug:
richcz3
10-05-2003, 05:51 PM
CgMonkey
More like delusional. :D There are all sorts of wacky theories floating about. Note I didn't include aliens or mention any other worldy events. But hey, hmm, might be fun to do. ;)
richcz3
More like delusional. :D There are all sorts of wacky theories floating about. Note I didn't include aliens or mention any other worldy events. But hey, hmm, might be fun to do. ;)
richcz3
link84
10-05-2003, 08:09 PM
i hear its over 1 gig and valve most likely has a t1 or better so they could have gotten away with it at night but software would have probably of picked up that big of a file going through the net
Barbas
10-05-2003, 09:22 PM
Well 1 gig seems too much that would be really ALOTA code.
I 've seen the file and it's more like 40mb.
I 've seen the file and it's more like 40mb.
Dark-Angel
10-05-2003, 09:39 PM
ya i seen the file its around 30-40mbs. But from what i heards its only the source code, the programming and all. they havent stolen the models graphiques and all that from what i read. They just downloaded the engine alone with a few other sources.
Neil
10-06-2003, 05:35 AM
http://www.myg0t.com/gn.jpg
Neil
10-06-2003, 05:48 AM
If it's true that MYGOT was the first to steal it, then shouldn't atleast their site be shut down?
t-man152
10-06-2003, 06:33 AM
this was writen at the end of the page
Important: Just to be clear, it's ok to talk about the leak and the possible implications, however we'll nuke you and your family if you even make the most slight clever hint of where to download it or even screenshots of it.
what do they mean by nuke. ohhh no does valve have nuclear weapon? is Half life more of a warning than a game? will they destroy my town and radiate my state if I see a screenshot of their sorce code. this might give ideas to the RIAA. why sew the people who steel our music lets just Nuke them.
lol, no but honestly what do they mean by Nuke?
Important: Just to be clear, it's ok to talk about the leak and the possible implications, however we'll nuke you and your family if you even make the most slight clever hint of where to download it or even screenshots of it.
what do they mean by nuke. ohhh no does valve have nuclear weapon? is Half life more of a warning than a game? will they destroy my town and radiate my state if I see a screenshot of their sorce code. this might give ideas to the RIAA. why sew the people who steel our music lets just Nuke them.
lol, no but honestly what do they mean by Nuke?
googlo
10-06-2003, 06:53 AM
I think it means they will kill everyone in the family.
t-man152
10-06-2003, 07:29 AM
Originally posted by WiseElben
I found the source code via google. I won't link though. I didn't download it since I want to buy HL2 legitly.:)
ohh no your going to get NUKED with your family. YOU cant hide from valve. you have given a slight clever hint as to where to get it: google. ohhh no what have I done will my family and I be nuked. thanks alot because of you I am a fugitive. My life is over :D
Bring it on Valve
I found the source code via google. I won't link though. I didn't download it since I want to buy HL2 legitly.:)
ohh no your going to get NUKED with your family. YOU cant hide from valve. you have given a slight clever hint as to where to get it: google. ohhh no what have I done will my family and I be nuked. thanks alot because of you I am a fugitive. My life is over :D
Bring it on Valve
BiTMAP
10-06-2003, 08:02 AM
your being a tard..
btw, nuking is a hacker thing, makes me suspect that was on the end of the MYGOT page, if not, then Valve is willin to go after hackers the only lethal way... nuking them.
btw, nuking is a hacker thing, makes me suspect that was on the end of the MYGOT page, if not, then Valve is willin to go after hackers the only lethal way... nuking them.
Pharaun
10-06-2003, 03:31 PM
This news sucks, but I like the way it was performed. With DoS, trojans and all that stuff. I bet Carmack got jalous and did it himself.
slaughters
10-06-2003, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by Pharaun
This news sucks, but I like the way it was performed. With DoS, trojans and all that stuff. I bet Carmack got jalous and did it himself. Dude that stuff is not "cool", it's childish and destructive. As a coder, I've never gotten into the hacking thing. Too simple too easy. I mean it's soo much easier to toss a brick through a window than it is to actually make the window. It's so much easier to deface art than it is to create art.
This news sucks, but I like the way it was performed. With DoS, trojans and all that stuff. I bet Carmack got jalous and did it himself. Dude that stuff is not "cool", it's childish and destructive. As a coder, I've never gotten into the hacking thing. Too simple too easy. I mean it's soo much easier to toss a brick through a window than it is to actually make the window. It's so much easier to deface art than it is to create art.
zarkos
10-06-2003, 06:02 PM
A hi-class programmers use Outlook? ts, ts, ts..... suspicious story.:rolleyes:
Neil
10-06-2003, 06:05 PM
Shouldn't he/they given this MUCH more consideration?
All the recent worms and viruses have been due to exploits in MS and especially Outlook. The answer from the community was to always use alternate programs and linux to avoid it.
I'm not sure why he kept using Outlook... i guess ease of use. But here he went from being crowned this super-genius to looking like a fool. Amazing how fast tables turn in the internet world.
All the recent worms and viruses have been due to exploits in MS and especially Outlook. The answer from the community was to always use alternate programs and linux to avoid it.
I'm not sure why he kept using Outlook... i guess ease of use. But here he went from being crowned this super-genius to looking like a fool. Amazing how fast tables turn in the internet world.
t-man152
10-06-2003, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by BiTMAP
your being a tard..
comon this isnt that big of a deal if they dint have the models, sounds, and textures. I mean they can't do anything with the source code. if theyr very talented they might be able to make a game but if its released valve will know, and if its not then who cares. the only bad thing coming out of this is the release date being pushed off . most leaks are markrting strategy. I mean who ever saw the Doom 3 alpha knows that its more of a demo than a game.
I in no way condone what the hacker or hackers did but I think that you guys are over-dramatizing this.
your being a tard..
comon this isnt that big of a deal if they dint have the models, sounds, and textures. I mean they can't do anything with the source code. if theyr very talented they might be able to make a game but if its released valve will know, and if its not then who cares. the only bad thing coming out of this is the release date being pushed off . most leaks are markrting strategy. I mean who ever saw the Doom 3 alpha knows that its more of a demo than a game.
I in no way condone what the hacker or hackers did but I think that you guys are over-dramatizing this.
Dark-Angel
10-06-2003, 06:35 PM
the prob is because poeple have the source... they can creat "super" hack or cheat or exploites what ever it can be. but personnaly i dont care, all i want is HL2 as fast as possible so i can start a mod :). dont care if for the 3 first moth there are cheats, i belive in valve can make a patch later so no more cheating :).
googlo
10-06-2003, 06:37 PM
But here he went from being crowned this super-genius to looking like a fool. Amazing how fast tables turn in the internet world.
I don't think that's warranted though. That's more like politics and the fault of the admirer than the fault of the one who is the subject of that admiration.
I don't think that's warranted though. That's more like politics and the fault of the admirer than the fault of the one who is the subject of that admiration.
gruvsyco
10-06-2003, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by zarkos
A hi-class programmers use Outlook?
Firstly, for what it's worth, often when you work at a corporation, the end user (or said programmer) has very very little to do with what app he can use for email. This is usually a corporate policy and often times even falls out of the hands of even the IT department.
Secondly when it comes to a reliable groupware app with major support... i.e. something that a corp is going to invest money into, right now there are only 2 major players that I ever see anyone talk about... Lotus Domino/Notes and MS Exchange/Outlook.
A hi-class programmers use Outlook?
Firstly, for what it's worth, often when you work at a corporation, the end user (or said programmer) has very very little to do with what app he can use for email. This is usually a corporate policy and often times even falls out of the hands of even the IT department.
Secondly when it comes to a reliable groupware app with major support... i.e. something that a corp is going to invest money into, right now there are only 2 major players that I ever see anyone talk about... Lotus Domino/Notes and MS Exchange/Outlook.
t-man152
10-06-2003, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by Dark-Angel
the prob is because poeple have the source... they can creat "super" hack or cheat or exploites what ever it can be. but personnaly i dont care, all i want is HL2 as fast as possible so i can start a mod :). dont care if for the 3 first moth there are cheats, i belive in valve can make a patch later so no more cheating :).
why do people care if cheats come out a few months early. I mean isnt Half life 2 a single player game? if so I really dont care if someone cheats. if its a multiplayer game itl be playable on valve and they will have anti-cheats in no time.
the prob is because poeple have the source... they can creat "super" hack or cheat or exploites what ever it can be. but personnaly i dont care, all i want is HL2 as fast as possible so i can start a mod :). dont care if for the 3 first moth there are cheats, i belive in valve can make a patch later so no more cheating :).
why do people care if cheats come out a few months early. I mean isnt Half life 2 a single player game? if so I really dont care if someone cheats. if its a multiplayer game itl be playable on valve and they will have anti-cheats in no time.
slaughters
10-06-2003, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by zarkos
A hi-class programmers use Outlook? ts, ts, ts..... suspicious story.:rolleyes: Yes. All the time.
P.S. Not to get into an OS war, but Linx/Unix has just as many problems with hacking as any other OS. It's not the OS, it's just making sure you set the OS up securely.
A hi-class programmers use Outlook? ts, ts, ts..... suspicious story.:rolleyes: Yes. All the time.
P.S. Not to get into an OS war, but Linx/Unix has just as many problems with hacking as any other OS. It's not the OS, it's just making sure you set the OS up securely.
zarkos
10-06-2003, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by slaughters
Yes. All the time.
P.S. Not to get into an OS war, but Linx/Unix has just as many problems with hacking as any other OS. It's not the OS, it's just making sure you set the OS up securely.
You are right, but popularity of OS makes it more vulnerable. But c'mon, Outlook?:rolleyes:
Yes. All the time.
P.S. Not to get into an OS war, but Linx/Unix has just as many problems with hacking as any other OS. It's not the OS, it's just making sure you set the OS up securely.
You are right, but popularity of OS makes it more vulnerable. But c'mon, Outlook?:rolleyes:
slaughters
10-06-2003, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by zarkos
You are right, but popularity of OS makes it more vulnerable. But c'mon, Outlook?:rolleyes: Weird. I guess we all have our phobias
You are right, but popularity of OS makes it more vulnerable. But c'mon, Outlook?:rolleyes: Weird. I guess we all have our phobias
Pharaun
10-06-2003, 07:54 PM
Originally posted by slaughters
Dude that stuff is not "cool", it's childish and destructive. As a coder, I've never gotten into the hacking thing. Too simple too easy. I mean it's soo much easier to toss a brick through a window than it is to actually make the window. It's so much easier to deface art than it is to create art.
Of course hacking (and everything else destructive) is neither funny nor cool, but, as I've mentioned, the way it was performed in this case seemed a bit :surprised to me. I mean, someone had to be very desperate to get his/her hands on the source code of the currently most awaited computer game, using that strange manner.
Dude that stuff is not "cool", it's childish and destructive. As a coder, I've never gotten into the hacking thing. Too simple too easy. I mean it's soo much easier to toss a brick through a window than it is to actually make the window. It's so much easier to deface art than it is to create art.
Of course hacking (and everything else destructive) is neither funny nor cool, but, as I've mentioned, the way it was performed in this case seemed a bit :surprised to me. I mean, someone had to be very desperate to get his/her hands on the source code of the currently most awaited computer game, using that strange manner.
altmeister
10-06-2003, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by slaughters
Yes. All the time.
P.S. Not to get into an OS war, but Linx/Unix has just as many problems with hacking as any other OS. It's not the OS, it's just making sure you set the OS up securely.
oh sure ... there are several exploits and "easy to do" hacks for outlook and ie. there are several hacks for linux (a month ago a critical expl in rh).
but the problem is the architecture of the os. after the most attacks against a windows system you getting admin rights. on a linux system you only got the rights of the logged user.
and this to easy stuff ... try to win a contest, i remember 2 guys from poland, wining a contest 2 years ago. they hacked a pittbull sec sys. this is not easy ...
and its very imp that we all see how open our window is.
Yes. All the time.
P.S. Not to get into an OS war, but Linx/Unix has just as many problems with hacking as any other OS. It's not the OS, it's just making sure you set the OS up securely.
oh sure ... there are several exploits and "easy to do" hacks for outlook and ie. there are several hacks for linux (a month ago a critical expl in rh).
but the problem is the architecture of the os. after the most attacks against a windows system you getting admin rights. on a linux system you only got the rights of the logged user.
and this to easy stuff ... try to win a contest, i remember 2 guys from poland, wining a contest 2 years ago. they hacked a pittbull sec sys. this is not easy ...
and its very imp that we all see how open our window is.
Neil
10-06-2003, 08:51 PM
Originally posted by googlo
I don't think that's warranted though. That's more like politics and the fault of the admirer than the fault of the one who is the subject of that admiration.
I wasn't speaking for myself though. Look at how much attention the game/he has garnished. I've seen very little on him before this game, now he's all over the place (...well prior to this leak too)
I don't think that's warranted though. That's more like politics and the fault of the admirer than the fault of the one who is the subject of that admiration.
I wasn't speaking for myself though. Look at how much attention the game/he has garnished. I've seen very little on him before this game, now he's all over the place (...well prior to this leak too)
Barbas
10-06-2003, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by t-man152
comon this isnt that big of a deal if they dint have the models, sounds, and textures. I mean they can't do anything with the source code.
Remember that the source code also contains the Havok physics code and Miles Sound system they can rip of parts of those as well as all the clever ways to overcome problems , add features all that stuff that valve has been working on the last five years.
comon this isnt that big of a deal if they dint have the models, sounds, and textures. I mean they can't do anything with the source code.
Remember that the source code also contains the Havok physics code and Miles Sound system they can rip of parts of those as well as all the clever ways to overcome problems , add features all that stuff that valve has been working on the last five years.
tatiana
10-07-2003, 12:05 AM
From a post to the Dallas IGDA digest today:
(From Hardocp.com posted Sunday, Oct 5)
HL2 Source Code Follow-Up:
Gabe Newell has sent out a follow up to the recent Half-Life 2 source code theft. Basically Valve is still looking for help from the community to do what they can to track down the people responsible for the theft of the source code, as well as help reporting sites that host info on the source code. Keep your eyes peeled gang.
1) We've taken our network connection down to pretty much a minimum. We're still finding machines internally that have been compromised.
2) The suite of tools that the attacker was using included the modified version of RemotelyAnywhere (basically a Remote Desktop-style remote admin tool), Haxker Defender (a process, registry key and file hiding tool), the key logger, and various networking utilities that allowed them to transfer files (compressors, NetCat, and FTP). We also are pretty sure they were sniffing our network to gather passwords and other information. Haxker Defender includes a file system driver that allows an attacker to have stuff on your machine that is invisible, unless you do something like mount the drive under another OS that has NTFS support.
We have determined one way of detecting some infected machines, which is using a connection viewer to detect connections to anomalous hosts external to our network.
We still don't know their entry method.
3) In general, the community has been remarkably swift at tracking down the sources of the leak. What would be most helpful now are IP addresses of the people who were responsible for the intrusion or for the denial of service attacks.
4) Also, please continue to send in URLs of websites hosting the source code. We've been contacting people and asking them to take it down.
5) There's anecdotal evidence that other game developers have been targeted by whoever attacked us. This hasn't been confirmed. We've been providing other game developers with more detailed information about the exploits and evidence of infiltration.
6) We're running a little bit blind with our network shut down, but it seems like some of the press has picked up the story. I've been fielding calls from the mainstream non-games, non-technical press all day. Hopefully they will get to report shortly what a mistake it is to piss off a whole bunch of gamers and get them hunting you around the Internet.
For any information related to this, please send it to helpvalve@valvesoftware.com, or you can always send to gaben@valvesoftware.com as well.
(From Hardocp.com posted Sunday, Oct 5)
HL2 Source Code Follow-Up:
Gabe Newell has sent out a follow up to the recent Half-Life 2 source code theft. Basically Valve is still looking for help from the community to do what they can to track down the people responsible for the theft of the source code, as well as help reporting sites that host info on the source code. Keep your eyes peeled gang.
1) We've taken our network connection down to pretty much a minimum. We're still finding machines internally that have been compromised.
2) The suite of tools that the attacker was using included the modified version of RemotelyAnywhere (basically a Remote Desktop-style remote admin tool), Haxker Defender (a process, registry key and file hiding tool), the key logger, and various networking utilities that allowed them to transfer files (compressors, NetCat, and FTP). We also are pretty sure they were sniffing our network to gather passwords and other information. Haxker Defender includes a file system driver that allows an attacker to have stuff on your machine that is invisible, unless you do something like mount the drive under another OS that has NTFS support.
We have determined one way of detecting some infected machines, which is using a connection viewer to detect connections to anomalous hosts external to our network.
We still don't know their entry method.
3) In general, the community has been remarkably swift at tracking down the sources of the leak. What would be most helpful now are IP addresses of the people who were responsible for the intrusion or for the denial of service attacks.
4) Also, please continue to send in URLs of websites hosting the source code. We've been contacting people and asking them to take it down.
5) There's anecdotal evidence that other game developers have been targeted by whoever attacked us. This hasn't been confirmed. We've been providing other game developers with more detailed information about the exploits and evidence of infiltration.
6) We're running a little bit blind with our network shut down, but it seems like some of the press has picked up the story. I've been fielding calls from the mainstream non-games, non-technical press all day. Hopefully they will get to report shortly what a mistake it is to piss off a whole bunch of gamers and get them hunting you around the Internet.
For any information related to this, please send it to helpvalve@valvesoftware.com, or you can always send to gaben@valvesoftware.com as well.
Neil
10-07-2003, 12:36 AM
Great, just give us step by step processes now on how they did it. You already told us all the software they used.
More information, is not always a good thing... :hmm:
More information, is not always a good thing... :hmm:
tatiana
10-07-2003, 12:49 AM
Well, my IT department finds it more useful if they know how and where attacks are coming from to plug up all the leaks. I would guess that Valve Software would feel that way as well. :shrug: And probably doesn't mind sharing that info, especially since this is evidently happening with other game companies (per the news article at www.Hardocp.com).
t
t
Dark-Angel
10-07-2003, 02:35 AM
the prob with the cheats are the cheats online. Lots of poeple are gonna get annoyed of cheats and quite playing half-life2. only reason Half-Life is still populare is because of Mods witch i would say 90% of them are online only. And you never know what a programmer found in the source, like abalitie to go on the server and take controle, put virus, make the server distribute virus, you never know what one can find! :eek:
BiTMAP
10-07-2003, 02:43 AM
but good modder codders can use it to make the mods more feature rich.
BiTMAP
10-07-2003, 06:32 AM
Zastrozzi was listening to HL radio so i didn't hear it, but he may post more clairity, but it sounded from what he said to me that not the entire source was even leaked, and only parts of the actual source got out... so this could be not as bad (although QUITE horrible as is).
TFC ShoeBox
10-07-2003, 06:50 AM
comon this isnt that big of a deal if they dint have the models, sounds, and textures. I mean they can't do anything with the source code.
That isn't the point, they now have Valve's new technology and engine source code, not to mention Havok's physics code and Miles sound code.
If you do any major programming at all you would understand once someone has the source to your game, modification, software, etc. It doesn't matter if they have resource files they now have the most important part of your project, the source. It isn't nearly as hard to create resource files as it is to code an engine.
ShoeBox
That isn't the point, they now have Valve's new technology and engine source code, not to mention Havok's physics code and Miles sound code.
If you do any major programming at all you would understand once someone has the source to your game, modification, software, etc. It doesn't matter if they have resource files they now have the most important part of your project, the source. It isn't nearly as hard to create resource files as it is to code an engine.
ShoeBox
CGmonkey
10-07-2003, 03:50 PM
It was only 1 / 3 of the code, so it isn't THAT much of a big deal. Still very sensitive code.
They will rewrite the part that was stolen so don't expect a game until April 2004. Have fun F#¤%T&# HACKER!
They will rewrite the part that was stolen so don't expect a game until April 2004. Have fun F#¤%T&# HACKER!
Dark-Angel
10-07-2003, 04:07 PM
there is no comfirmation of a delay still for this holiday... so pleas dont make it delay ... shut your mouth i want my GAME!!!:wip:
CGmonkey
10-07-2003, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by Dark-Angel
there is no comfirmation of a delay still for this holiday... so pleas dont make it delay ... shut your mouth i want my GAME!!!:wip:
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=3568878
Take it or leave it.. pnwed! And yes, it's confirmed by VALVe that it's an authentic message.
there is no comfirmation of a delay still for this holiday... so pleas dont make it delay ... shut your mouth i want my GAME!!!:wip:
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=3568878
Take it or leave it.. pnwed! And yes, it's confirmed by VALVe that it's an authentic message.
MCronin
10-07-2003, 07:32 PM
http://www.fanta.dk/showmovie.asp?mid=7A5DBA05-CAD3-47DA-B99B-F67F5F6B4A80
http://www.fanta.dk/showmovie.asp?mid=AAD098F8-B8BD-4BC1-B25B-AB78213D0CCE
http://www.fanta.dk/showmovie.asp?mid=AAD098F8-B8BD-4BC1-B25B-AB78213D0CCE
trthing
10-07-2003, 07:49 PM
MCronin:
The second one has perfect timing
:applause:
The second one has perfect timing
:applause:
Ran13
10-08-2003, 07:50 PM
I've read a few posts in this thread which state the opinion the theft of the engine source is not a big deal since none of the content was stolen, and therefore the entire game cannot be "re-created".
I just wanted to point out the fact that revenue from the sale of the game would probably be a fraction of the money Valve stands to make licensing that source code to 3rd party developers. The game revenue would have all the content creation expenditure to cover before it breaks even. Licensing the source code is all profit, with the exception of tech support man-hours offered in any 3rd party licensing agreement.
If I were a 3rd party developer with deep pockets, I would now have to think twice before licensing the HL2 engine knowing that the source code, or at least a version of it, is running wild over the internet.
Also, with such licensing for a multi-title/multi-platform agreement running in the 7-figure area, that's a bunch of revenue to make up ...IOW...they're gonna have to sell a several TONS of games to make up for the licensing revenue potentially lost due to this fiasco.
I just wanted to point out the fact that revenue from the sale of the game would probably be a fraction of the money Valve stands to make licensing that source code to 3rd party developers. The game revenue would have all the content creation expenditure to cover before it breaks even. Licensing the source code is all profit, with the exception of tech support man-hours offered in any 3rd party licensing agreement.
If I were a 3rd party developer with deep pockets, I would now have to think twice before licensing the HL2 engine knowing that the source code, or at least a version of it, is running wild over the internet.
Also, with such licensing for a multi-title/multi-platform agreement running in the 7-figure area, that's a bunch of revenue to make up ...IOW...they're gonna have to sell a several TONS of games to make up for the licensing revenue potentially lost due to this fiasco.
Neil
10-08-2003, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by Ran13
I've read a few posts in this thread which state the opinion the theft of the engine source is not a big deal since none of the content was stolen, and therefore the entire game cannot be "re-created".
I just wanted to point out the fact that revenue from the sale of the game would probably be a fraction of the money Valve stands to make licensing that source code to 3rd party developers. The game revenue would have all the content creation expenditure to cover before it breaks even. Licensing the source code is all profit, with the exception of tech support man-hours offered in any 3rd party licensing agreement.
If I were a 3rd party developer with deep pockets, I would now have to think twice before licensing the HL2 engine knowing that the source code, or at least a version of it, is running wild over the internet.
Also, with such licensing for a multi-title/multi-platform agreement running in the 7-figure area, that's a bunch of revenue to make up ...IOW...they're gonna have to sell a several TONS of games to make up for the licensing revenue potentially lost due to this fiasco.
No reputable company is gonna use stolen source code. They will still pay for it to use it, and if they don't, then they get sued.
Your average Joe might try using it, but then again he's not gonna be paying for it to begin with. And if their game makes it big and it noticeable, then they will get sued too.
There is even a smaller portion of the community that can even use it and go through and figure it all out on themselves.
I'm not down playing the situation, just giving you some feedback on your views.
I've read a few posts in this thread which state the opinion the theft of the engine source is not a big deal since none of the content was stolen, and therefore the entire game cannot be "re-created".
I just wanted to point out the fact that revenue from the sale of the game would probably be a fraction of the money Valve stands to make licensing that source code to 3rd party developers. The game revenue would have all the content creation expenditure to cover before it breaks even. Licensing the source code is all profit, with the exception of tech support man-hours offered in any 3rd party licensing agreement.
If I were a 3rd party developer with deep pockets, I would now have to think twice before licensing the HL2 engine knowing that the source code, or at least a version of it, is running wild over the internet.
Also, with such licensing for a multi-title/multi-platform agreement running in the 7-figure area, that's a bunch of revenue to make up ...IOW...they're gonna have to sell a several TONS of games to make up for the licensing revenue potentially lost due to this fiasco.
No reputable company is gonna use stolen source code. They will still pay for it to use it, and if they don't, then they get sued.
Your average Joe might try using it, but then again he's not gonna be paying for it to begin with. And if their game makes it big and it noticeable, then they will get sued too.
There is even a smaller portion of the community that can even use it and go through and figure it all out on themselves.
I'm not down playing the situation, just giving you some feedback on your views.
link84
10-08-2003, 09:23 PM
the patch to it is real :eek: :eek: i saw it on irc when i was in a room
Beechdbum
10-08-2003, 10:02 PM
any one see this http://money.cnn.com/2003/10/07/commentary/game_over/column_gaming/index.htm?cnn=yes :eek: :eek: :eek: sorry if someone already posted this
BiTMAP
10-09-2003, 12:43 AM
I just need to vent, I'm REALLY REALLY pissed off about this. About people acting like its nothing, ect. Its one thing for something like the doom ]|[ alpha to leak, where it was from a person Inside (ati) but in this case, an actual break in theft, thats ... grr! I myself am an amature game developer and it just pisses me off to no end to see this, then people (gamers) thinking oh well whatever i'm gonna ignore valve asking me to not touch it and download it screwing valve over in the long run.
but thats only a tiny part of my anger, my full anger really comes from the fact that people on this message board are posting and somewhat promoting false info about this leak, saying its offical (well nearly) and the admins not doing anything about it. This is worse then warez, this is full out big time theft (over 5k, so you know, the kind that screws you forever), nevermind the computer crimes. This thread in particular really drives me up the wall : Half - life ² Pre-Release Hits the Scene (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=876383) : Mostly becuase of how false it is and how it goes on promoting this problem.
I would really really Like to hear what people like Bentliama and such people who work in studios, or with any sort of game development, have to say about this issue..
but thats only a tiny part of my anger, my full anger really comes from the fact that people on this message board are posting and somewhat promoting false info about this leak, saying its offical (well nearly) and the admins not doing anything about it. This is worse then warez, this is full out big time theft (over 5k, so you know, the kind that screws you forever), nevermind the computer crimes. This thread in particular really drives me up the wall : Half - life ² Pre-Release Hits the Scene (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=876383) : Mostly becuase of how false it is and how it goes on promoting this problem.
I would really really Like to hear what people like Bentliama and such people who work in studios, or with any sort of game development, have to say about this issue..
Neil
10-09-2003, 02:15 AM
By pre-release they meant, a running warez version.
No one said it was legit, they actually encourage people to NOT spread images or talk about it.
And it's not just "us" spread bad news, Valve is mad at Vivendi right now b/c those 2 are saying different things too.
No one said it was legit, they actually encourage people to NOT spread images or talk about it.
And it's not just "us" spread bad news, Valve is mad at Vivendi right now b/c those 2 are saying different things too.
gnarlycranium
10-09-2003, 12:07 PM
I'm sitting here at this very moment (at 3:00 in the morning)watching NorthWest Cable News, and the reporters are talking about the HL2 hack... they just said that playable versions of the game are showing up online-- that's balderdash, right? ...WTF?!! :surprised
Ran13
10-09-2003, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by Neil
No reputable company is gonna use stolen source code. They will still pay for it to use it, and if they don't, then they get sued.
Your average Joe might try using it, but then again he's not gonna be paying for it to begin with. And if their game makes it big and it noticeable, then they will get sued too.
There is even a smaller portion of the community that can even use it and go through and figure it all out on themselves.
I'm not down playing the situation, just giving you some feedback on your views.
I didn't even mention someone using the stolen source.
I'm talking about someone who COULD afford to pay for the source, but has other options. If you were picking an engine to develop a AAA game, and were prepared to pay close to or above 7-figures for the license, would you even consider an engine who's source code has been made public?
Have you ever tried to get a game published using an open-source game engine? Publisher do not like open-source engines and that's what the theft of this source code has done to the HL2 engine, at least from a publisher's perspective.
My point is that sales of HL2 will still be brisk, but that it will barely cover the cost of a 5 year dev cycle. Valve planned to make money for their NEXT game by licensing the engine source code to 3rd parties, and that's gonna be a tough sell now that the source has been made public. 3rd party developers AND publishers will be leary to use it becasue of the potential for hacks/cheats.
The only way 3rd party devs will touch it is if they offer it at a substantially lower licensing cost than, say, UT2K3. Either way, it'll end up costing Valve some serious revenue.
No reputable company is gonna use stolen source code. They will still pay for it to use it, and if they don't, then they get sued.
Your average Joe might try using it, but then again he's not gonna be paying for it to begin with. And if their game makes it big and it noticeable, then they will get sued too.
There is even a smaller portion of the community that can even use it and go through and figure it all out on themselves.
I'm not down playing the situation, just giving you some feedback on your views.
I didn't even mention someone using the stolen source.
I'm talking about someone who COULD afford to pay for the source, but has other options. If you were picking an engine to develop a AAA game, and were prepared to pay close to or above 7-figures for the license, would you even consider an engine who's source code has been made public?
Have you ever tried to get a game published using an open-source game engine? Publisher do not like open-source engines and that's what the theft of this source code has done to the HL2 engine, at least from a publisher's perspective.
My point is that sales of HL2 will still be brisk, but that it will barely cover the cost of a 5 year dev cycle. Valve planned to make money for their NEXT game by licensing the engine source code to 3rd parties, and that's gonna be a tough sell now that the source has been made public. 3rd party developers AND publishers will be leary to use it becasue of the potential for hacks/cheats.
The only way 3rd party devs will touch it is if they offer it at a substantially lower licensing cost than, say, UT2K3. Either way, it'll end up costing Valve some serious revenue.
halo
10-09-2003, 03:19 PM
GC:there are 1/2 playable versions online
TFC ShoeBox
10-09-2003, 04:22 PM
I'm talking about someone who COULD afford to pay for the source, but has other options. If you were picking an engine to develop a AAA game, and were prepared to pay close to or above 7-figures for the license, would you even consider an engine who's source code has been made public?
Why wouldn't you purchase the Half-Life 2 engine. I could understand if someone had ALL of the engine source code but they don't, they have 1/3 of it. The Half-Life 2 engine is of course one of the best in technology (not considering Doom 3).
Think of it this way, if 1/3 of the Doom 3 engine was leaked would you still want to purchase it? of course you would because of it's technology, regardless if a pidy ammount of the engine source code was leaked.
Do not get me wrong I am not saying the 1/3 of the engine that was leaked isn't nothing and no one should worry, this is a huge problem.
My point is that sales of HL2 will still be brisk, but that it will barely cover the cost of a 5 year dev cycle. Valve planned to make money for their NEXT game by licensing the engine source code to 3rd parties, and that's gonna be a tough sell now that the source has been made public. 3rd party developers AND publishers will be leary to use it becasue of the potential for hacks/cheats.
Can you please show me material said by Valve that they have another game in production?
I don't think you understand the concept of a games engine. If Valve was to sale to 3rd party developers they would give them the foundation (like a house\engine) to them, then that developer would add to it (the walls, roof, etc\game functions). By Valve selling 3rd party developers the source they don't get Half-Life 2's exploits and hacks, they get the technology.
ShoeBox
Why wouldn't you purchase the Half-Life 2 engine. I could understand if someone had ALL of the engine source code but they don't, they have 1/3 of it. The Half-Life 2 engine is of course one of the best in technology (not considering Doom 3).
Think of it this way, if 1/3 of the Doom 3 engine was leaked would you still want to purchase it? of course you would because of it's technology, regardless if a pidy ammount of the engine source code was leaked.
Do not get me wrong I am not saying the 1/3 of the engine that was leaked isn't nothing and no one should worry, this is a huge problem.
My point is that sales of HL2 will still be brisk, but that it will barely cover the cost of a 5 year dev cycle. Valve planned to make money for their NEXT game by licensing the engine source code to 3rd parties, and that's gonna be a tough sell now that the source has been made public. 3rd party developers AND publishers will be leary to use it becasue of the potential for hacks/cheats.
Can you please show me material said by Valve that they have another game in production?
I don't think you understand the concept of a games engine. If Valve was to sale to 3rd party developers they would give them the foundation (like a house\engine) to them, then that developer would add to it (the walls, roof, etc\game functions). By Valve selling 3rd party developers the source they don't get Half-Life 2's exploits and hacks, they get the technology.
ShoeBox
richcz3
10-09-2003, 04:33 PM
From the "Anonymous Leaker" --
To all those saying HL2 was delayed because of the hacking action, ill just remind you that what was leaked is what Valve has, nothing more and nothing less, so its pretty good to understand it wasnt finished yet.
Also I'd like to point out the E3 [demo] was one big fake by Valve. Ever tried to kill that soldier in physicstown ? Notice the door will still get kicked ? No scripted sequences ?
To everyone saying this is no Beta: I'd like to point out that THIS is what you wanted Valve to release on 9/30/03, theres no such thing as a much better release in Valves network!
To Valve: I suggest you stop lying to your customers about how much was stolen/compromised, or I'll have to release everything just to prove my point. And you know what you got, as I do.
Yikes. WARNING, BRIEF EDITORIALIZING AHEAD!
I'm not going to sit here and say I completely agree with Valve's policies, because I've criticized them in the past regarding how they handled the original release date delay announcement, among other things. And judging by what this guy says about the status of the game and professional game developer's analysis of what has leaked so far, it does seem pretty clear that the game isn't really that close to being done and hasn't even reached solid Beta status.
If this assessment is true, that would contradict a whole bunch of things Valve has said in the past, and make their behavior regarding the whole 9/30 release date drama even more questionable. But even so, that doesn't give "Anonymous Leaker" the right to help distribute stolen property. Leaking pre-release content like this hurts the fans, it hurts Valve, and it only serves to cause further delays in Half-Life 2's development.
Again, we encourage you to steer clear of all this junky leaked content. Don't support the actions of retarded, lonely, socially inept children who want to be big shots on IRC.
Source Planethallife
http://www.forumplanet.com/planethalflife/topic.asp?fid=2348&tid=1184602
This is a real eye opener.
How could ATI and Vivendi not know at what stage of development the game was in. There is no way they could have thought they were going to make the 30th of September with this build. This has to be a hoax.
richcz3
To all those saying HL2 was delayed because of the hacking action, ill just remind you that what was leaked is what Valve has, nothing more and nothing less, so its pretty good to understand it wasnt finished yet.
Also I'd like to point out the E3 [demo] was one big fake by Valve. Ever tried to kill that soldier in physicstown ? Notice the door will still get kicked ? No scripted sequences ?
To everyone saying this is no Beta: I'd like to point out that THIS is what you wanted Valve to release on 9/30/03, theres no such thing as a much better release in Valves network!
To Valve: I suggest you stop lying to your customers about how much was stolen/compromised, or I'll have to release everything just to prove my point. And you know what you got, as I do.
Yikes. WARNING, BRIEF EDITORIALIZING AHEAD!
I'm not going to sit here and say I completely agree with Valve's policies, because I've criticized them in the past regarding how they handled the original release date delay announcement, among other things. And judging by what this guy says about the status of the game and professional game developer's analysis of what has leaked so far, it does seem pretty clear that the game isn't really that close to being done and hasn't even reached solid Beta status.
If this assessment is true, that would contradict a whole bunch of things Valve has said in the past, and make their behavior regarding the whole 9/30 release date drama even more questionable. But even so, that doesn't give "Anonymous Leaker" the right to help distribute stolen property. Leaking pre-release content like this hurts the fans, it hurts Valve, and it only serves to cause further delays in Half-Life 2's development.
Again, we encourage you to steer clear of all this junky leaked content. Don't support the actions of retarded, lonely, socially inept children who want to be big shots on IRC.
Source Planethallife
http://www.forumplanet.com/planethalflife/topic.asp?fid=2348&tid=1184602
This is a real eye opener.
How could ATI and Vivendi not know at what stage of development the game was in. There is no way they could have thought they were going to make the 30th of September with this build. This has to be a hoax.
richcz3
slaughters
10-09-2003, 04:58 PM
Some fanboy who is not even using his real name spouts off in a web forum, and he has more credability than everyone else involved in the issue !?!?!?!?
(It must be true, I read about it on the web!!)
(It must be true, I read about it on the web!!)
Lee3dee
10-09-2003, 05:43 PM
Dear Valve,
I'm still buying HL2, I'm hopeing to buy it bundled with my new radeon 9800 XT. At least release a demo for us to play, 1 level would keep me happy until its release. doom3 alpha was leaked and im still waiting, all i saw was screenshots. Just don't take too long, and turn into Duke Nukem Forever! lol
edit. please release it soon, I got my perorder ready!
I'm still buying HL2, I'm hopeing to buy it bundled with my new radeon 9800 XT. At least release a demo for us to play, 1 level would keep me happy until its release. doom3 alpha was leaked and im still waiting, all i saw was screenshots. Just don't take too long, and turn into Duke Nukem Forever! lol
edit. please release it soon, I got my perorder ready!
Dark-Angel
10-09-2003, 06:10 PM
me to it didnt change any thing. i pre ordered HL2 :) cant wait to to play it.:beer:
Ran13
10-09-2003, 10:09 PM
Why wouldn't you purchase the Half-Life 2 engine. I could understand if someone had ALL of the engine source code but they don't, they have 1/3 of it.
It's my understanding that all that Valve had, was downloaded. That's all the Valve code, plus proprietary code from at least 2 other vendors (the Havok physics code & the Miles sound code).
IF that's the case, and considering it took them 5 years to get where they are now, I'd say that the base engine functions are pretty much set in stone and most of the coding going on now is game shell specific. And they don't have time for a complete re-write of the base engine functions.
The Half-Life 2 engine is of course one of the best in technology
That remains to be seen...not too mention that it now has the potential of being compromised by the fact that their "technology" is now public knowledge.
Can you please show me material said by Valve that they have another game in production?
You figure they're gonna release HL2 and then retire? :shrug:
My point is that, after 5 years of development, sales of HL2 will probably just cover the cost of development. Valve's continued revenue stream depends on licensing the engine to 3rd party developers.
I don't think you understand the concept of a games engine.
For the few here that know me, and how long I've been building game content, that'll be good for a laugh.
By Valve selling 3rd party developers the source they don't get Half-Life 2's exploits and hacks, they get the technology.
You're right about that. The hacks & exploits will be provided in ample quantity by the same type of nefarious individuals who hacked Valves network in the first place...and who now know exactly how Valve's programmers go about rendering all that content to screen.
It's my understanding that all that Valve had, was downloaded. That's all the Valve code, plus proprietary code from at least 2 other vendors (the Havok physics code & the Miles sound code).
IF that's the case, and considering it took them 5 years to get where they are now, I'd say that the base engine functions are pretty much set in stone and most of the coding going on now is game shell specific. And they don't have time for a complete re-write of the base engine functions.
The Half-Life 2 engine is of course one of the best in technology
That remains to be seen...not too mention that it now has the potential of being compromised by the fact that their "technology" is now public knowledge.
Can you please show me material said by Valve that they have another game in production?
You figure they're gonna release HL2 and then retire? :shrug:
My point is that, after 5 years of development, sales of HL2 will probably just cover the cost of development. Valve's continued revenue stream depends on licensing the engine to 3rd party developers.
I don't think you understand the concept of a games engine.
For the few here that know me, and how long I've been building game content, that'll be good for a laugh.
By Valve selling 3rd party developers the source they don't get Half-Life 2's exploits and hacks, they get the technology.
You're right about that. The hacks & exploits will be provided in ample quantity by the same type of nefarious individuals who hacked Valves network in the first place...and who now know exactly how Valve's programmers go about rendering all that content to screen.
Supervlieg
10-09-2003, 10:20 PM
Lol, just thought of this... What better way to generate some free publicity and have everybody talk about your game for months to come while you move the release date by a few months with a "good" excuse?
"Hey, let's leak some old stuff we had, we can fool the publishers and audience into thinking that we have a genuine reason to move the release date and buy us some extra time. And we get a lot of publicity too! Hell, nobody will even mention Doom III for a couple of weeks!!!"
Just a though that popped in my head. Doesn't mean it's what really happened. But remember this: Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not after you.
Edit: How can one compile the source code, you would need all the game assets like models, textures, animations etc. Or at least have some replacements for them with exactly the same name. I dont think one can produce these assets within a few days. So isn't the source code useless except for programmers trying to learn some tricks?
"Hey, let's leak some old stuff we had, we can fool the publishers and audience into thinking that we have a genuine reason to move the release date and buy us some extra time. And we get a lot of publicity too! Hell, nobody will even mention Doom III for a couple of weeks!!!"
Just a though that popped in my head. Doesn't mean it's what really happened. But remember this: Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not after you.
Edit: How can one compile the source code, you would need all the game assets like models, textures, animations etc. Or at least have some replacements for them with exactly the same name. I dont think one can produce these assets within a few days. So isn't the source code useless except for programmers trying to learn some tricks?
TFC ShoeBox
10-10-2003, 12:40 AM
slaughters: If it would make you feel better my name is Josh. I do not feel I have more "credability" than others although I know more than you when it comes to this subject. Not to mention I have coded my own DLLs for Half-Life's Team Fortress Classic and Counter-Strike (if you care for a 30 day trial of the server-side software then e-mail me at tfcshoebox@hotmail.com), this is besides the point.
Ran13: I appoligize, and I am curious of what type of game content you have developed? models?
ShoeBox
Ran13: I appoligize, and I am curious of what type of game content you have developed? models?
ShoeBox
Agent D
10-10-2003, 12:42 AM
In regards to supervlieg's thoughts: I think the millions of dollars and multiple lawsuits heading Valve's way aren't quite worth the shame of admitting that their game will be delayed for a few months.
But as I was saying in the now-closed thread, it is disappointing how untrutheful Valve has been so far. They've lied about the September 30th delay (deny, deny, deny, deny, admit 6 days before launch), the capabilities of the tech demo (Scripted vs AI), how much code was stolen (obviously more than 1/3rd) etc.
And Slaughters, why would thousands of people lie (or fail to disprove the lies) about the scripted demo while giving directions to prove it? Unfortunately, this isn't just 5 people who managed to download and play...
*Edit* Why would a fanboy bash Valve?
But as I was saying in the now-closed thread, it is disappointing how untrutheful Valve has been so far. They've lied about the September 30th delay (deny, deny, deny, deny, admit 6 days before launch), the capabilities of the tech demo (Scripted vs AI), how much code was stolen (obviously more than 1/3rd) etc.
And Slaughters, why would thousands of people lie (or fail to disprove the lies) about the scripted demo while giving directions to prove it? Unfortunately, this isn't just 5 people who managed to download and play...
*Edit* Why would a fanboy bash Valve?
richcz3
10-10-2003, 01:23 AM
What some people don't realize is the impact this causes another game being developed by Troika. They already licensed the Source Engine from Valve.
Vampire: The Masquerade www.Vampirebloodlines.com . That was another title shown at E3 that looked real nice. This theft has really compromised their development.
richcz3
Vampire: The Masquerade www.Vampirebloodlines.com . That was another title shown at E3 that looked real nice. This theft has really compromised their development.
richcz3
PhilOsirus
10-10-2003, 02:10 AM
I really don't care much about Half Life, I played it on PS2 and it was the worst looking FPS I had seen in a long time (doesn't matter if I played it with a controller instead of a keyboard/mouse, it looked horrible in all aspects period). But still when I heard that the company had lost important files to some hacker right after "yes the game will be delayed for a few months/no it won't be delayed" I thought that was suspicious, unless they had not let the public know what had happened. At the same time I don't see how someone could steal so much from a completed game, it's not like simply copying a CD.
While the idiot who hacked Valve remains an idiot, let's not all start crying for Valve, they are just another company, not Santa Claus working 4 seasons a year.
While the idiot who hacked Valve remains an idiot, let's not all start crying for Valve, they are just another company, not Santa Claus working 4 seasons a year.
Spankspeople
10-10-2003, 02:23 AM
Considering that by the time the PS2 version came out it was around half a decade out of date, of course it's going to look bad.
Would you be so upset if they were to release Quake 1 on PS2?
Would you be so upset if they were to release Quake 1 on PS2?
Agent D
10-10-2003, 02:27 AM
The reason they managed to get all of it is that the entire thing was sitting on the computers which were connected to the internet, which were also running Outlook Express. :rolleyes:
I believe Gabe Newell worked at Microsoft for 15 years, you would think that they would have slightly better security. :hmm:
I believe Gabe Newell worked at Microsoft for 15 years, you would think that they would have slightly better security. :hmm:
verbal007
10-14-2003, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by Ran13
It's my understanding that all that Valve had, was downloaded. That's all the Valve code, plus proprietary code from at least 2 other vendors (the Havok physics code & the Miles sound code).
IF that's the case, and considering it took them 5 years to get where they are now, I'd say that the base engine functions are pretty much set in stone and most of the coding going on now is game shell specific. And they don't have time for a complete re-write of the base engine functions.
Unfortunately/fortunately (depending on what angle you take)there IS a lot there. I don't know the first thing about C, but I can tell you that the source was definately going through a pipeline. There are holes in the events (holy missing scripting batman) and little text cues that apprear on screen during gameplay ('image man walking up to you and telling you....' *suddenly door opens).
The dynamics are just as incredible as the demo demonstrated. There's no better joy than beating a monster with a flying mattress, like some kind of sick pillowfight.
My point is that, after 5 years of development, sales of HL2 will probably just cover the cost of development. Valve's continued revenue stream depends on licensing the engine to 3rd party developers.
I'm hoping that this sneak peak will build enough hype for them to succeed (but is there really any doubt in that?). I wasn't sure before, but let me tell you that NOW, more than ever... I plan on purchasing this game on it's release date. I mean... come ON... we're talking in game dynamics that will... well... you'll see.
For the few here that know me, and how long I've been building game content, that'll be good for a laugh.
You bring an interesting point to mind. This was a blessing for me actually. I don't myself have the source (spent all day a friend's house, getting it to work), but I did have a few hours to dig and play. For me, it's quite educational to get an indepth view at how their pipeline work is done. It's VERY intuitive. I come from an IT background in the Motor City, and it was nice to see what the techies are doing in the gaming industry.
But I won't continue with this.. because this could easily segue into other discussions.
You're right about that. The hacks & exploits will be provided in ample quantity by the same type of nefarious individuals who hacked Valves network in the first place...and who now know exactly how Valve's programmers go about rendering all that content to screen.
It's a scary thought... but, again, I'll be the first in line to purchase the game, as well as maybe even pickup a few extra copies for friends, for christmas.
The game has integrated mic support, huge/nonlinear environments and... well I can't not mention those dynamics again. To jump off a cliff, flip my buggy upside down onto a huge bug, splattering it on the ground, then to fend off two more incomming bugs (cue Starship Trooper music) while I try and flip my buggy back over to flee...
... tis a joy worth the money. Maybe I'll wear a T-shirt that says I bought my copy, then stitch my receipt onto the sleeve.
I hope making such comments won't get me banned. I guess I just try and look at the brighter side and I will also do my best to convince the curious to purchase the game. I'll be worth it.
As for the 'conspiracies' that some are talking about... *shrug* I think that anyone that has experienced the corporate world knows, is how the game is played. But true... I believe that hacking can be a bit of a foul. But I do think there's no better way to get people interested in modding... and since that is definately an angle of theirs... *shrug*.
- Jeremy (will be first in line at Best Buy)
*prepares for the beating*
It's my understanding that all that Valve had, was downloaded. That's all the Valve code, plus proprietary code from at least 2 other vendors (the Havok physics code & the Miles sound code).
IF that's the case, and considering it took them 5 years to get where they are now, I'd say that the base engine functions are pretty much set in stone and most of the coding going on now is game shell specific. And they don't have time for a complete re-write of the base engine functions.
Unfortunately/fortunately (depending on what angle you take)there IS a lot there. I don't know the first thing about C, but I can tell you that the source was definately going through a pipeline. There are holes in the events (holy missing scripting batman) and little text cues that apprear on screen during gameplay ('image man walking up to you and telling you....' *suddenly door opens).
The dynamics are just as incredible as the demo demonstrated. There's no better joy than beating a monster with a flying mattress, like some kind of sick pillowfight.
My point is that, after 5 years of development, sales of HL2 will probably just cover the cost of development. Valve's continued revenue stream depends on licensing the engine to 3rd party developers.
I'm hoping that this sneak peak will build enough hype for them to succeed (but is there really any doubt in that?). I wasn't sure before, but let me tell you that NOW, more than ever... I plan on purchasing this game on it's release date. I mean... come ON... we're talking in game dynamics that will... well... you'll see.
For the few here that know me, and how long I've been building game content, that'll be good for a laugh.
You bring an interesting point to mind. This was a blessing for me actually. I don't myself have the source (spent all day a friend's house, getting it to work), but I did have a few hours to dig and play. For me, it's quite educational to get an indepth view at how their pipeline work is done. It's VERY intuitive. I come from an IT background in the Motor City, and it was nice to see what the techies are doing in the gaming industry.
But I won't continue with this.. because this could easily segue into other discussions.
You're right about that. The hacks & exploits will be provided in ample quantity by the same type of nefarious individuals who hacked Valves network in the first place...and who now know exactly how Valve's programmers go about rendering all that content to screen.
It's a scary thought... but, again, I'll be the first in line to purchase the game, as well as maybe even pickup a few extra copies for friends, for christmas.
The game has integrated mic support, huge/nonlinear environments and... well I can't not mention those dynamics again. To jump off a cliff, flip my buggy upside down onto a huge bug, splattering it on the ground, then to fend off two more incomming bugs (cue Starship Trooper music) while I try and flip my buggy back over to flee...
... tis a joy worth the money. Maybe I'll wear a T-shirt that says I bought my copy, then stitch my receipt onto the sleeve.
I hope making such comments won't get me banned. I guess I just try and look at the brighter side and I will also do my best to convince the curious to purchase the game. I'll be worth it.
As for the 'conspiracies' that some are talking about... *shrug* I think that anyone that has experienced the corporate world knows, is how the game is played. But true... I believe that hacking can be a bit of a foul. But I do think there's no better way to get people interested in modding... and since that is definately an angle of theirs... *shrug*.
- Jeremy (will be first in line at Best Buy)
*prepares for the beating*
dave_baer
10-14-2003, 09:46 AM
Our speculation is that these were done via a buffer overflow in Outlook's preview pane.
And these guys are supposed to be the wonderful techno junkies that bring us such great games? Hello! Turn off the friggin' preview pane!
And these guys are supposed to be the wonderful techno junkies that bring us such great games? Hello! Turn off the friggin' preview pane!
Spankspeople
10-14-2003, 03:48 PM
Speaking of conspiracy theories...
What if Microsoft was behind this in an attempt to not have Halo look so outdated?
=P
What if Microsoft was behind this in an attempt to not have Halo look so outdated?
=P
nobrain
01-05-2004, 08:58 PM
I don't really get why they have recode the entire part that was stolen, what is the problem with just continuing in production, say some guys do have the source code, ok so they put together a couple of models in 3d max, make a decent mod and release, its still not half life, you know, the story, in game cinematics, studio quality production that comes from valve.
its basically like owning the motor of a ferrari with nothing else, no body, no leather seats, just some pistons in a metal box. they could build their own car around the engine, but its not going to be a ferrari.
its basically like owning the motor of a ferrari with nothing else, no body, no leather seats, just some pistons in a metal box. they could build their own car around the engine, but its not going to be a ferrari.
t-man152
01-05-2004, 09:01 PM
I was thinking the same thing but if these hackers were smart enough to steal the source code im sure they will be able to hack the new on once it's in store shelves. and then they can cheat if they want to.
kornkidpr
01-05-2004, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by Ran13
I didn't even mention someone using the stolen source.
I'm talking about someone who COULD afford to pay for the source, but has other options. If you were picking an engine to develop a AAA game, and were prepared to pay close to or above 7-figures for the license, would you even consider an engine who's source code has been made public?
Have you ever tried to get a game published using an open-source game engine? Publisher do not like open-source engines and that's what the theft of this source code has done to the HL2 engine, at least from a publisher's perspective.
My point is that sales of HL2 will still be brisk, but that it will barely cover the cost of a 5 year dev cycle. Valve planned to make money for their NEXT game by licensing the engine source code to 3rd parties, and that's gonna be a tough sell now that the source has been made public. 3rd party developers AND publishers will be leary to use it becasue of the potential for hacks/cheats.
The only way 3rd party devs will touch it is if they offer it at a substantially lower licensing cost than, say, UT2K3. Either way, it'll end up costing Valve some serious revenue.
Only an ignorant would say that open source software isnt reliable or is unsecure.I dont know if you have noticed that closed sourced programs are less secure than open source ones you should try to read this:http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/quake-cheats.html
Reading that would open your eyes a little more before saying what you said about open source community.Closed source program has their exploits hiding only meaning that a good CRACKER NOT A HACKER could just do some revese engineering find the exploit use it and publicize it.Open source exploits are public meaning that a good hacker with a good eye can find it faster and fix it faster than a closed source program thats why your Windows is less secure than Linux :D.By the way I think people shouldn't be defending Valve so damn much it's their fault for using unsecure programs,yes it is true that no one has the right to stole the code but they as a company need to mantain a code of security too i wouldn't pay $10 a month to play an online game made from a company that made an absurd mistake of usin outllok as their email client when everyones knows its not a very secure option.open your eyes and do not let corporations just get away with it ask them to give what they should give meaning very good and secure products.Hell you'll be paying $50 for a game that a CRACKER could reverse engineer and find an exploit and use it that's nuts.While people mantains this kind of attittude companies will still get away with it and wont give the quality product they should give by the ammount of money they charge and I'm not talking about neat graphics and sound alone im talking about secure and stable games.Those are my two cents.OH AND I REMIND YOU READ THAT DOCUMENT.
I didn't even mention someone using the stolen source.
I'm talking about someone who COULD afford to pay for the source, but has other options. If you were picking an engine to develop a AAA game, and were prepared to pay close to or above 7-figures for the license, would you even consider an engine who's source code has been made public?
Have you ever tried to get a game published using an open-source game engine? Publisher do not like open-source engines and that's what the theft of this source code has done to the HL2 engine, at least from a publisher's perspective.
My point is that sales of HL2 will still be brisk, but that it will barely cover the cost of a 5 year dev cycle. Valve planned to make money for their NEXT game by licensing the engine source code to 3rd parties, and that's gonna be a tough sell now that the source has been made public. 3rd party developers AND publishers will be leary to use it becasue of the potential for hacks/cheats.
The only way 3rd party devs will touch it is if they offer it at a substantially lower licensing cost than, say, UT2K3. Either way, it'll end up costing Valve some serious revenue.
Only an ignorant would say that open source software isnt reliable or is unsecure.I dont know if you have noticed that closed sourced programs are less secure than open source ones you should try to read this:http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/quake-cheats.html
Reading that would open your eyes a little more before saying what you said about open source community.Closed source program has their exploits hiding only meaning that a good CRACKER NOT A HACKER could just do some revese engineering find the exploit use it and publicize it.Open source exploits are public meaning that a good hacker with a good eye can find it faster and fix it faster than a closed source program thats why your Windows is less secure than Linux :D.By the way I think people shouldn't be defending Valve so damn much it's their fault for using unsecure programs,yes it is true that no one has the right to stole the code but they as a company need to mantain a code of security too i wouldn't pay $10 a month to play an online game made from a company that made an absurd mistake of usin outllok as their email client when everyones knows its not a very secure option.open your eyes and do not let corporations just get away with it ask them to give what they should give meaning very good and secure products.Hell you'll be paying $50 for a game that a CRACKER could reverse engineer and find an exploit and use it that's nuts.While people mantains this kind of attittude companies will still get away with it and wont give the quality product they should give by the ammount of money they charge and I'm not talking about neat graphics and sound alone im talking about secure and stable games.Those are my two cents.OH AND I REMIND YOU READ THAT DOCUMENT.
nobrain
01-05-2004, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by t-man152
I was thinking the same thing but if these hackers were smart enough to steal the source code im sure they will be able to hack the new on once it's in store shelves. and then they can cheat if they want to.
though i did not take this into consideration and its a legit statement, I hear its possible to reverse engineer any prog/game down to its source code with the right tools and knowledge. isn't that something to consider for all appz.
I was thinking the same thing but if these hackers were smart enough to steal the source code im sure they will be able to hack the new on once it's in store shelves. and then they can cheat if they want to.
though i did not take this into consideration and its a legit statement, I hear its possible to reverse engineer any prog/game down to its source code with the right tools and knowledge. isn't that something to consider for all appz.
Agent D
01-06-2004, 12:12 AM
I don't think it's possible to get the source code of a compiled program through reverse engineering.
The point is that with the code, one of the things they can do is program extremely effective hacks and cheats to use with multiplayer, thus turning a new game like Half Life 2 into something worse than multiplayer Counterstrike.
However, the theft of the source code isn't the reason it's delayed so long, apparently the "hacker" got pretty much everything, and it wasn't anywhere near finished. Thus, HL2 would have been delayed anyway, but probably not quite as much.
The point is that with the code, one of the things they can do is program extremely effective hacks and cheats to use with multiplayer, thus turning a new game like Half Life 2 into something worse than multiplayer Counterstrike.
However, the theft of the source code isn't the reason it's delayed so long, apparently the "hacker" got pretty much everything, and it wasn't anywhere near finished. Thus, HL2 would have been delayed anyway, but probably not quite as much.
Neil
01-06-2004, 12:53 AM
Would you be so upset if they were to release Quake 1 on PS2? [/B]
actually you can play Quake1 on xbox ;)
but anywho... this conversation is still going on :surprised
actually you can play Quake1 on xbox ;)
but anywho... this conversation is still going on :surprised
Jackdeth
01-06-2004, 12:54 AM
How can anyone here even claim how close the game was to being finished?
And trying to reverse eng. the source code would take years by tracking all the memory and instructions.... HL4 would be out by then...
Hacking and cheating almost ruined Valve. So of course when a hacker gets acess to SOURCE CODE, they would have to re-write most of the stolen code. Otherwise, online cheating would kill of HL2 in the first week, and they would loose millions of dollars...
And trying to reverse eng. the source code would take years by tracking all the memory and instructions.... HL4 would be out by then...
Hacking and cheating almost ruined Valve. So of course when a hacker gets acess to SOURCE CODE, they would have to re-write most of the stolen code. Otherwise, online cheating would kill of HL2 in the first week, and they would loose millions of dollars...
Garma
01-06-2004, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by nobrain
though i did not take this into consideration and its a legit statement, I hear its possible to reverse engineer any prog/game down to its source code with the right tools and knowledge. isn't that something to consider for all appz.
reverse engineering is possible though it is difficult and involves reading of hexadecimal stuff. It is used to crack S/N and CD-keys etc. it is even possible to change the flow of a program. Adding cheats is imo not possible with this technique since that would require extended knowledge of the way the program works, something that is not easily read from the reversed code.
Cheats are normally in-built to facilitate better (beta) testing, but well, they can be "read" from the source code.
though i did not take this into consideration and its a legit statement, I hear its possible to reverse engineer any prog/game down to its source code with the right tools and knowledge. isn't that something to consider for all appz.
reverse engineering is possible though it is difficult and involves reading of hexadecimal stuff. It is used to crack S/N and CD-keys etc. it is even possible to change the flow of a program. Adding cheats is imo not possible with this technique since that would require extended knowledge of the way the program works, something that is not easily read from the reversed code.
Cheats are normally in-built to facilitate better (beta) testing, but well, they can be "read" from the source code.
BiTMAP
01-07-2004, 02:34 AM
Originally posted by supervlieg
Edit: How can one compile the source code, you would need all the game assets like models, textures, animations etc. Or at least have some replacements for them with exactly the same name. I dont think one can produce these assets within a few days. So isn't the source code useless except for programmers trying to learn some tricks?
Good comment ;) great idear.. who knows? and who cares... if they need time they need it so give it to them.. if this was what they needed to do it... crap.. but okay.
btw though, with how the HL engine works, you CAN compile the source CODE without ANY assets. Becuase all of the assets are plugged in, for modding abilities. When you make the files that describe the game and make it a mod (even valves stuff is a mod in itself and structure) you tell what the assets are.. therefore you can add only what you have.
Edit: How can one compile the source code, you would need all the game assets like models, textures, animations etc. Or at least have some replacements for them with exactly the same name. I dont think one can produce these assets within a few days. So isn't the source code useless except for programmers trying to learn some tricks?
Good comment ;) great idear.. who knows? and who cares... if they need time they need it so give it to them.. if this was what they needed to do it... crap.. but okay.
btw though, with how the HL engine works, you CAN compile the source CODE without ANY assets. Becuase all of the assets are plugged in, for modding abilities. When you make the files that describe the game and make it a mod (even valves stuff is a mod in itself and structure) you tell what the assets are.. therefore you can add only what you have.
meshula
01-07-2004, 05:34 AM
Sorry if I missed a similar post earlier (didn't spot one) so here goes.
One major reason the theft of the code is bad is online play. Writing online games is a continuous struggle between the developer and ppl who want to spoof the servers.
When ppl get on with infinite health, or they can tell where everyone is, the value of the online game is diminished since legit players don't have fun.
Since the code theft includes the crypto, all that has to be reengineered, and it isn't cheap, or easy.
To some degree the rest of it is secondary; theft of shaders, or the physics engine doesn't compromise the value of the product to the player, it only reduces the value of Valve's IP, and their technical competitive advantage. But the technical competitive advantage is small, volatile coin in comparison to a wrecked online experience.
One major reason the theft of the code is bad is online play. Writing online games is a continuous struggle between the developer and ppl who want to spoof the servers.
When ppl get on with infinite health, or they can tell where everyone is, the value of the online game is diminished since legit players don't have fun.
Since the code theft includes the crypto, all that has to be reengineered, and it isn't cheap, or easy.
To some degree the rest of it is secondary; theft of shaders, or the physics engine doesn't compromise the value of the product to the player, it only reduces the value of Valve's IP, and their technical competitive advantage. But the technical competitive advantage is small, volatile coin in comparison to a wrecked online experience.
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