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View Full Version : Does much drawing helps your modeling really?


Galo
05-28-2002, 07:31 AM
They say so, i draw so now and then but i must say when i try to model a head from a box with subdiv, i have to start over and over again until i have some good basics and then comes the real ****ed up part.... the details..... i always **** up my models with this....

I believe if you draw a lot on paper, and i mean .... a LOT and you know how to draw your caracters that it is much easier to model your caracters in 3d....

anyone got any comments on this, i want to find out actually..... cause if so im gonna draw like an ....... "somebody who draws a lot" again..... :thumbsup:

really i have to know this..... i mean IRL when you're working at a proffesional studio you have to draw before you can even OPEN your 3d program don't ya...... i know some studio's hired sepperated peoples to do so.....

-Galo

pixelfairy
05-28-2002, 09:43 PM
Hi, Galo! If your goal is to become a better CG modeler try sclupting with clay or Sculpy with a model for reference. I truly believe that if one can create REAL 3D models with traditional materials then it's just a matter of learning how to work with new tools(computer program) to become a CG modeler .You should definately keep up with your drawings. Try drawing from a model if possible. Using 2d reference helps but it's less of a challenge and requires less problem solving since a good part of the work is already done for you. It's all about seeing. Hope this helps!

alx
05-28-2002, 10:17 PM
hey good w\question....
i myself used to think that u really dibnt have to draw good... though u still need to undertand how things around a model work... but ave come to realize that u actually need to draw to get to understan this,... for example... i cant draw well a human... thus my human models arent the greatest... but in the other hand ive been drawing sets for a long time... and my architectural models are 10 times better than my human models... so in conclution. i think that yes... drwaing definetly can help out... u can still do it with out drawing... but ur models are gonna take 10 times longer to finiosh and probably wont look so good...

well i hope that helps a bit..


sincerely

alx

icky
05-28-2002, 10:51 PM
Hi Galo :)

Here's my opinion...

Drawing helps me to see things more clearly. Shapes and tones etc. I have the same problem tho, that when I start modelling in 3d... well things just get a tad messy. I agree with Pixelfairy that tactile sculpturing is a must. It's a state of mind too. I've known guys that take to cg like a duck to water, yet their work is poor cos of their lack of artistry and ability to manipulate forms (again drawing helps me no end to see what shapes work or don't work!).

Once the program and techniques become second nature to you like picking up a pencil, modeling will seem natural and easy. It'll then be down to your abiliy as a designer and artist.
Anywho
Good Luck!

:thumbsup:

dmcgrath
05-29-2002, 03:53 AM
Drawing is crucial. I have met many a good modeller that can't draw very well, but. Try conveying something to someone that isn't used to seeing things in a 3D computer environment.
Or better yet. How are you even going to show someone a model immediately. Those things can take some time. Wheras a drawing can be whipped out in a matter of minutes and people will understand what you are getting at.
You can't say "Wait a minute!!!" and run off to your computer. Hammer something out, print it, and run back with something to show.
Did you know that Alfred Hitchcock drew alot of his own storyboards? How about Steven Speilberg (before he could afford someone to do it for him)? These guys are heroes of ours, geniuses, artists, draftsmen...
Drawing will also help with your staging and composition skills as well.
I'll get off my soapbox now, thanks for listening.:)

Galo
05-29-2002, 07:21 AM
Hey everyone, thanks for replying

:pixelfairy: -> Playing with clay is that important :-) ??

i was thinking of making plastic models out of little tiny plastic objects like a buddy of mine http://www.kosmotroniks.com/

hey makes shit like this :
http://www.kosmotroniks.com/piks/vlindervanger.GIF

That's pretty cewl and i think that will improve my modeling skillz....

Anyway, im willing to do anything to improve my skillz..... im a 2d artist for 4 years now and thats getting a little boring, im taking maya classes now for half a year and i was thinking of getting into drawing classes, i drawn my whole life.... even when i was a kid i wanted to be a comic art artist..... but for one reason i quit drawing.... still don't know why, and now i see that i need it again i have to draw but i'm afraid i can't dra anymore.... al the drawings i make end up to nothing...... and i know you don't have to draw well to model well...... but i want to...

thanks for listening anyway guys.....

/Me is gonna draw like..... "someone who realy draws a lot...." person :buttrock: :buttrock: :buttrock: :buttrock:

-Galo

Galo
05-29-2002, 07:25 AM
icky -> Btw you've got some serious javascript errors on your website man.... fix them

icky
05-29-2002, 08:41 AM
Yep, My site is ready for the great recycle bin in the sky, just as soon as I get the time to make a better one. I used this cheapy ass program just to get it up on the web.

What sorta problems did you get?

:thumbsup:

icky
05-29-2002, 10:01 AM
Hey I think I just fix the probs on the main page!! :bounce:

www.ickystuff.co.uk

The rest will take time, but hey, it's getting there

cheers

dmcgrath
05-30-2002, 12:29 AM
Nice stuff icky. Very competent.

ilasolomon
06-01-2002, 12:11 AM
simply, if you can draw well, so draw before start to modeling
even u don't use the drawing for ref., but drawing it will open
your mind wider to what r u going to do.
& if you can't draw & don't want to learn, so it's ok...model
with TRY & ERROR ... anyway you are a digital/3d sculpter not
a penciler.

Galo
06-01-2002, 09:19 AM
ila_solomon : It's not about learning to draw.... it's about drawing much and improving my drawing skills..... putting time and effort into drawing while i could put it in my modeling skills....

Anyway thanks 4 the comments

-Galo

Galo
06-01-2002, 09:24 AM
<DIV ID="idElement21" style="position:absolute; top:421px; left:161px; width:135px; height:50px;"><A HREF="oldies.htm" onClick="javascript:Link3Dize();return true"><IMG SRC="oldies.jpg" NAME="idElement21Img" ID="idElement21Img" WIDTH=135 HEIGHT=50 BORDER=0></A></DIV>

theres your error icky !!!

ilasolomon
06-01-2002, 10:39 PM
aha, got it...ok, what's your current jub & for what position
are you looking up?

Galo
06-02-2002, 01:58 AM
I am currently working for a graphic design company where i do webdesign and wedevelopments, but i want to move to 3d modeling/texturing/animating, i worked for 2 years with 3dsmax, 1 year of lightwave and now im learning maya.....but it has nothing to do with me job..... 3d is now only a hobby, i need a lot of abstract shapes aso for my designs but that's not hard at all...

i can model but when it comes up to anatomy or edgeloops or any organic surfaces i just all **** them up....

So, what i wanted to do is drasticly improve my modeling skills with drawing, i think that helps because you learn how to set up your model better and you also have a clear pisture in mind about your model....

And i need as many tips as there are so anyone willing to help me and share a spare of minutes for some helpfull tips i would really apreciate that....

thanks guys...

-Galo

LucentDreams
06-02-2002, 08:24 PM
I think the biggest advantage to classical artskills like sculpting and drawing, is that they are faster to achieve the desired effect. If a director thinks a shot may be better with a 360 degree pan of a room, the modeler needs to have the roome modeled and then animate the pan, while the 2D artist, can pop out a rough 360 pan in ten minutes, half hour tops, with far more detail than the quick 3D one could have. Same with a head rotation. when desinging a character. you can really help you modeling if you can draw 32 drawings of you head and make it rotate. all very important and efficient skills. Need to show a director what a jungle setting may feel like or show that you are dapable of doing that kind of project for them, I can do a tarzan style charcoal rendering of a jungle in 3 Hours tops. Course it helps to have a Tarzan Layout artist for your Background and Layout instructor.

YOu can work with out 2D, but why limit yourself. Look at the art of monsters inc book. Thats what makes their movie still standout compared to Ice age. The Artistic planning that goes in before the modeling starts makes a huge difference. To get a job at pixar you are far better off with some classical skills, especially for deign or animation, they prefer artists who can animate classical ove rthose with only 3D experience, they'll even train a 2D artist over an okay 3D artist with no 2D experience.

I'll admit there are exceptions, I have seen amazing work come out of some artists that don't draw, and all I can think to myself is "have you ever sat down with a pencil??? Imagine what you could do"

And if you are doing character annimation or modeling, drawing alone is not enough find a gallery or studio, or even school that has life drawing, life drawing is the most important artskill. If you understand hman anatomy you can draw pretty much anything.

Glenn Keane still goes to lifedrawing sessions so don't anyone say it ain't important unless you have smoethng better than him to show for.

ilasolomon
06-02-2002, 10:51 PM
So, what i wanted to do is drasticly improve my modeling skills with drawing, i think that helps because you learn how to set up your model better and you also have a clear pisture in mind about your model....

u answerd your question...u r right
go for it & improve the drawing skills, no doubt!

regards

Galo
06-03-2002, 07:21 AM
kaiskai, thanks for lightning things up...... im actually gonna draw everything i want to make now, even if it's a website or anything.....

ila_solomon, thanks 2 u 2 m8 4 the help :D

-Galo

tazmanian
06-03-2002, 12:01 PM
me also like u .... i love 3d modelling and animating ..
im also a web designer ...... ive in max about 1/half years ..... but nothing can do in my office coz its a web development company....
so.... im studying alone to draw anotomy ......
and every day in night im drawing sketches , drawing drawing drawing drawing drawing drawing ... i m not going figure drawing classes .... im studying in my own..... every day im improving myself...... im waliking to my ambition alone.... !!!!!

d3v1n
06-13-2002, 02:03 AM
well.....i guess so guys....drawing is pretty important.....i saw some of my friends , when they make their 3d models....the models look like their drawing style.....
your drawing skill can affect your model....well..kinda hard to explain but its true...and i feel the same way though. anyway maybe i will post my model later here for comparison...:wip:

LucentDreams
06-13-2002, 04:33 AM
Actually what you mention is a good point, and can cause problems for many artists 2D and 3D. Many artists have a distinct style, and that often leads into their 3D art as well, meaning the sort have limited themselves to what they do by only using one style. My suggestion to all artists is to do life drawing, and while our at it play around with styles, do graphic flat drawings, for fully rendered stuffd, do reweally loose rough strokes, do fine sketchy stuff. Experiment.

Galo
06-13-2002, 07:50 AM
Yeah i think that's a little bit my problem, i don't really have developed my own style in 3d but not in drawing also if i draw anything it's a little global, don't know how to explain but it's not really popping out, it looks okay but not spectaculair, there are allot of guys and gals here who have there own original style some look realistic, cartoon, stylouete etc.

But i think it's all about practice i just have to draw and model, draw and model, draw and model and then i'll be l33t one day.

i know i will :-D

-GaLO

Galo
06-13-2002, 07:51 AM
BTW : nimal <- If that picture is you i wanna mary ya :-D

WHHEEEHEHEHEHE :buttrock:


:bounce:

-Galo

LucentDreams
06-13-2002, 08:25 AM
Acutally not having a style is sometimes a good thing . Having a style is always handy, but when orking in the industry you need to adapt to the style of what ever you are working on, and from my experience at school, many of my classmates have troubles on asignments where we are provided model sheets of a certain character cause it doesn't fit their style, imagine a guy who only watch and draws anime trying to animate a cartoony character named Werner who is a really famous German cartoon character. needless to say they were stiff lifeless, and didn't look right.

Galo
06-13-2002, 09:02 AM
You're totally right but my modeling and drawing always looks a li'll bit messed-up because i don't know exactly what i'm gonna make it's more just freestyle and it get's ****ed up a lota times...

maybe it is just practise, but i'm having a hard time with drawing 3/4 sight caracters on paper cause i'ts hard for my to visualise the 3d when you draw 2d....

and i don't know how to train it, i got all these great concepts and idea's popping into ma head but i cant realise them cause of lack of skillz...

LucentDreams
06-13-2002, 09:24 AM
hmmm, have you ever tried 30 gesture drawings??? DO a bunch of these and you'll naturally start to pickup those things. and don't think that drawings skills requires you to be able to draw amzingly cool clean sketches and such, Draw fast and rough and move on to the next drawing, never love a drawing, you should be able to take any drawing and rip it up without a second thought. once you can do that then start working on how to refine those drawings. But the Key is NEVER FALL IN LOVE WITH YOUR DRAWINGS.

Galo
06-13-2002, 09:54 AM
what are gesture drawings ?

I have some books about drawing, 2 of them are marvel comic 'how to draw' books and one is 'how to draw female maga caracters'

but still it's verry hard, i try to first draw thumbnails verry quick and fast then draw a bunch of them then when i like one i'll make a quick sketsh of it and if it looks good i draw the details but most of the time it costs me so much time and then i been drawing for like 2 hours and im not satisfied with the drawing no more cause it's getting boring after 2 hours and i start over again....

maybe i just have to draw all the time and leave the modeling for a while maybe that'll help ma...

Galo
06-13-2002, 09:57 AM
And you know what else, when i draw and the drawing works out well i habe no guts to change anything drasticly cause i'm afraid messing up that one nice drawing i made, but i know it would be cooler if i add that one thing but i cant cause i'll mess up......

LucentDreams
06-13-2002, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by Galo
And you know what else, when i draw and the drawing works out well i habe no guts to change anything drasticly cause i'm afraid messing up that one nice drawing i made, but i know it would be cooler if i add that one thing but i cant cause i'll mess up......

This is what I am taling about with the don't fallin love with your drawings. Do you wanna know how that rule was set into my skull. Imagine assisting a piece of Feature quality animation, and then doing the cleanup on it. the one frame, (being the first of this caliber for me) took me about 2 hours just to clean the line on a drawing that was given to me. I made the line quality awesome, beatiful really worth showing on the big screen, and then the instructor sat down, and sarted to point out mistakes that I missed when going from the rough to the clean, like the volume change on a medallion the characetr was wearing. Did he point it out. no he drew over it with a blunt blue pencil. then he notice the a line wasn't drawn as though it went thru the ear, so he erased the ear showed me how to draw the line, and left it like that. many more mistakes werepinpointed, and needless to say by the time he was done, that two hours (seemed like more) of cleanupp was almost as messy as the priginal rough. And I had to sit and watch him do it. that is when I realised you can't like your drawings to much, they will require changes or revisions, thats the reality of or jobs.

As for what gesture drawings are... well basically it is when you draw with quick big gestures of your arm (drawing from the shoulder of course) instead of clean tight sketchy lines. they are rough drawings, that show the cadence of your line, the essence of the pose, and tend to have a more natural and in motion kind of feel to them. Thumbnails would be a good start, but try doing your thumbnails on a 12 FLD sheet of paper and then you'll be doing sort of gesture drawings. Those marvel drawing boooks are goood for learning about structure and sometimes line of action, but what you really need to do is get Richard Williams Animator's survival kit, and also look up Glenn Keane on the internet. He is a God when it comes to gesture drawing or drawing in general for that matter. Even Pixar has him (and Richard Williams for that matter) come in and talk to their 3D animators about animation and drawing and such.

Galo
06-13-2002, 02:43 PM
Wow man, you really helped me out here :applause:

But i tried looking for Glenn Keane but couldn't find anything decent.

i found this, im gonna look where i can buy this book.

http://www.theanimatorssurvivalkit.com/

anyway, thanks BIG time for informing me and givving me tips etc great work.

If you got any more helpfull links or information please lemme know..

-Galo

blankslatejoe
06-13-2002, 02:54 PM
I'm on the "draw more; get better" side of things, but as a side note, I think that making shapes in those little gray kneaded erasers has helped me more than anything in trying to understand working in 3 dimensions.

icky
06-13-2002, 03:01 PM
Here's some great stuff for inspiration and instruction on drawing :

http://www.awn.com/mag/issue3.3/3.3pages/3.3vilppudrawing.html

:thumbsup:

Galo
06-13-2002, 06:26 PM
So that's Gesture drawing... wicked :)
Gonna trie that 4 sure.

Btw : thanks a lot icky 4 the link
anyway icky your website has still got errors m8.
andaah.....does anyone knows any more websites where they show you how to draw gesture or thumnails ?

Thanks

blankslatejoe
06-14-2002, 02:50 AM
gesture? just draw without thinking, with your elbow, not your wrist, and try and capture emotion, posture, attitude etc etc. I usually start with a "spine" axis to get a feel for how the figure will lay on the page.

A teacher once told me, about thumbnails, to start with just blocks of color. once you like that "abstract " version, draw an overlay (tracing paper or whaatever) on top, fitting subjects into the blocks. oh, that teacher would crucify you if you put any details in too...

Galo
06-14-2002, 07:26 AM
blankslatejoe : Thanks for the explanation of it but whats a "spine" axis ? sorry im dutch!

anyway abut thumbnails you can find more over here :
http://www.artbyfeng.com/tut2_01.htm

cause theres nothing about 'blocks' there i wanna know some more details about what your teacher said :D

can't you write a tut or something ? :D

But i think the gesture drawing method has more potential for me, my problem is i think the verry most beginning, posting your caracter in a certain position and i tried to make some thumbnails but there are always to mutch details in them...

keep up the good information guys, this is really helping me out ....

LucentDreams
06-14-2002, 07:47 AM
spine axis is often the same as a line of action, though line of action can stray fromt he spine, and sometimes a pose may have more than one line of action. Basically though it is a line that is either a single curve or an "S"-curve tha shows the shape and direction of the spine. Where this differentiates from line of action, is that line of action can include arms and legs, or be just for the arms and such. I will look into scanning a few drawings in that show what I am refering too.

As for Feng's work, his thumbnails are typically a litle larger thanwhat most people do, but they have the same aspects as gestures do, but a little more detail sometimes. Basically they are fast and loose, concentrate on the shape, silhouette, and not he eyes, and the scrathe on the forearm or whatever.

Galo
06-14-2002, 08:00 AM
Ahhh :D man this is awsome

and do you guys always have a clear idea in your head when you begin drawing ar is it just like 'i'll see what it will become...' ?

cause i've got some stunning idea's so i'm gonna try and draw them tonight as practice...

Does anyone has any further training methods to loos'n up your hand muscles and arm muscles or so to draw more fluid lines...
and i also heard drawing a lot of shapes like circles and squares and s lines aso that it's good for improving the fluids in your drawing ? how...... can't imaging drawing circles improves my drawing skills.... moving with my mouse doesn't improve my modeling skillz is it....

anyway, boy im exited :D it's that im at work now so i can't start drawing now but tonight i will, all night LONG...wheeee

LucentDreams
06-14-2002, 08:09 AM
some of my best works comes from not thinking when I am drawing. Try this one, you need a pen and paper (pen not pencil, and not a cheap blue pen but a fineliner or something like that that flows nicely.) now look up from the page toward the ceieling, draw 5 quick lines, the can be straight or curved ot whatever, but make them fast and without concetrating on them. now look at the five lines, and try too find something, I typically look for faces but look for anything. Now refine it. Add detail, correct shapes the way they need, just use the lines as the refeence. I once did one that after an hour of refinement was one of the best dog drawings I ever made.

Check out these two places for tonnes of WIP kindda stuff and learn others techniques and styles.

http://pub54.ezboard.com/bcartoonandillustrationparadise66133
http://pub54.ezboard.com/bcartoonandillustrationparadise

Galo
06-14-2002, 08:17 AM
Wow thanks man.

So what you suggest, spend more time in drawing for now and when i improved my skillz in that i can seriously begin to model my drawings ?

LucentDreams
06-14-2002, 09:03 AM
Definitely. As I think I have mentioned, I am currently studying Classical animation. Before I began my studies I was teaching Cinema 4D at a highscholl as an artist in residence upon highschool graduation. My skills in 3D were okay, but it was my technical skills that made me a decent instructor, now I have been studying classical animation for 7 months, and my modeling and texturepainting skills have improved more in 7 months then in two year previous. And I barely get to work in 3D right now so the change is just in my understanding of anatomy, movement, silhouette,composition etc etc.

best choiuce I ever made was to continure studies in classical artforms rather than in 3D, where most of my time would have been speant learning another app rather than the art sills.

Tools are easier to leanr than skills. Learn how to draw, draw all the time,and when you do model, make at least two sketches, front ad profile, before you start modeling, but keep them as thu,mbnails or gestures, no deatils, keep em loose and rough.

Galo
06-14-2002, 09:22 AM
ahh that's wicked man, so you are really good at it then....

i wan't to take those kinda classes 2 but they don't have them here in holland....
so i have to learn it all by myself, well anyway i'm gonna try verry hard and i'll just see what comming out then.

Im thinking of moving to another country for a while i was thinking of australia to search for an decent education in art and animation.

-Galo

Galo
06-14-2002, 10:35 AM
Anyway guys.... thank you sooo much 4 your help this has really freshed me up somehow... i can't wait to begin drawing those 30 gesture drawings :D and then i'll know what you mean probably

so guys, thanks and as soon as i have a decent drawing i'll post it :D

i found this page by the record
It's pretty helpfull for 2danimation and drawing cartoon caracters
http://www.freetoon.com/prestonblair/intro/frame.html

500 stars for you guys helping me out here :applause: :applause: :applause:
-Galo

blankslatejoe
06-14-2002, 01:13 PM
wow kaskai, your spine definition is right on the ball. You really seem to know your stuff. As to blocks, Galo: "Blocking out a thumbnail" is simply coloring the picture with solid areas of color. Thumbnails aren't the place for details, just for design, unless a certain detail is the focus. Anyway, Good luck galo, and start posting some stuff up!

XanderFX
06-17-2002, 04:55 PM
Check out these sites for some reference material www.fineart.sk and this site www.thehobbitguy.com for an excellent tutorial on modeling a polygonal head. He also has some great links to other sites as well.

Although I am in the camp of drawing well only helps to make your models better and allows you to show off your imagination and design sense, it doesn't necessarily work this way in the real world the art dept. generates the concepts and drawings that are sent off to modeling to be executed. If you can make your models look exactly like someone elses drawings your already on your way to demonstrating your ability to work as part of a team, which is one of the more important aspects of production or video games.

If you want to get a handle on the tools just search for reference pics and model sheets on the web. You can find them all over at www.cartoonnetwork.com in the D.O.C. section as well as at Shaneglines.com follow this link to the model sheets section. http://pub54.ezboard.com/fcartoonandillustrationparadise66133frm16

These will allow you to work towards a finished product from someone elses designs just as you would in the real world.

Anyway happy modeling!

blankslatejoe
06-17-2002, 06:07 PM
good points about the need to often model from someone elses drawing, but you also can't deny that learning to draw well can help you better understand the thought process that goes through the concept artists mind, allowing you to articulate his scematics into 3d more efficiently.

also, drawing cool things impresses girls.

genesis max
06-17-2002, 07:48 PM
drawing realy helps and you can draw your own blueprints, but sculpting helps even more for 3d.;)

LucentDreams
06-18-2002, 02:30 AM
Sculpting is also a great skil to have, but being able to draw will also help your sculpting. Personally I think that Drawing is the fundamental and most essential. Not trying to debate just stating an opinion.

Oh, and what do you use for sculpting? I have been using sculpy III lately and have to say I realy like the stuff, also good to compare with when doing SSS tests.

d3v1n
06-18-2002, 07:39 AM
sculpy is pretty cool :shrug: i've just started to make a model using sculpey..its fun though ! but i still need time to get used of it:hmm:

Galo
06-18-2002, 08:18 AM
But sculpting makes a mess, with the clay and all....

LucentDreams
06-18-2002, 08:27 AM
you neeed to try charcoal rendering. clay isn't nearly as messy unless you are seducing a girl at the clay turntable.

Galo
06-18-2002, 08:39 AM
Whehehehe, i was more thinking of makeing object out of plastic but with sculpting you can train your organic skillz...

Galo
06-18-2002, 10:39 AM
Whee, for the past 3 days i've been drawing and allready im improving but the thing is....

I'm having huge problems at the beginning of my drawing i try to imagine what my caracter should be like and what kind of personality he got's.

In which action scene he's involved and so on.

But when i want to begin and draw the line of action then that looks okay, but my positions are always wrong, i drawn a few front sights and side views that worked but that's no big deal.

I'm trying to draw a caracter in action but the perspective or the position of the caracter is never okay, i read everything about action drawing on the internet i could find out there but it's still sucking bigg time, maybe it's just training and pratice i need

But if anyone has a good tip (s)he's welcome...

-Galo

blankslatejoe
06-18-2002, 01:18 PM
ok, well, try drawinga lot of stick figures. I'm not joking, if you cant draw action poses, try and visualize how the basic limbs would move around first, realistically proportioned stick people is a good way to go about this.

After you've got a couple of pages of just stick figures, try scribbling in the mass, not drawing the outside edges, but swirling again and again until you end up with an outside edge that you like. dont erase an incorrect line until you've drawn the correct one on top of it. Eventually you'll get better and better and then and be able to churn out figures in no time. But remember, even professionals have to lay out a basic idea in some way before they can jump right in, and for every finished picture you see from a professional draftsmen, there are at least a dozen sketches, screw ups, or practise attempts.

Stick figures, scribbling...you can learn alot from little kids.

goodluck, scan and post some of your work, galo

blankslatejoe
06-18-2002, 01:21 PM
note: above post is not THE way to go about things, every artist picks up their own method of learning and honing themselfs, those are just some tips that work for me.

LucentDreams
06-18-2002, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by blankslatejoe


Stick figures, scribbling...you can learn alot from little kids.

goodluck, scan and post some of your work, galo

The stick figure drawings are one type of gesture drawing used for 30 second up to even a minute sketches, and the scribbles one I many call noodle drawings or string drawings, some keep the pencil on the paper the whole time others don't but it is important to study the mass of the model not the contour and edge which will often look wrong when it is right and look right when it is all wrong.

Galo
06-18-2002, 02:58 PM
but it is important to study the mass of the model not the contour and edge which will often look wrong when it is right and look right when it is all wrong.

There's my problem, i think im just putting to much efford into edge drawing while not looking at the massive and solid part

i don't know how to look at that or even imagine the mass in my head when i haven't even finished the sketches!!

But im gonna try anyway, im gonna become a bad ass drawing artist :buttrock:

UHUM!!.......:airguitar

LucentDreams
06-18-2002, 03:04 PM
Tonight I will see if I can scan some drawings in for you. maybe with some notes. Perhaps I'll make another thread where people can post images with notes on how they develop the drawings and such, but where would be the most appropriate place to place the thread, as it will apply to more than just modelers and more than just 2D artists. any suggestions. Anyways I won't be back till tonight and then I'll do some scanning, perhaps including my character for my Classically animated Film I am starting voice recording today. YAY!!!!:bounce:

blankslatejoe
06-18-2002, 03:55 PM
good luck on that film, and heck yeah, if you put up a thread, maybe ill scan some sketches and post 'em to, to help get things rolling.

Galo
06-18-2002, 04:08 PM
hey guys, that's a fabulous idea, i just contacted lilldragon and asked him if there was a posibbility to set up a new section on this form called 'traditional art' where peepz could post threads like this one and sculpting and painting.

anyway just wanted to thank you guys for all the help you give me on this thread it's really helping me out great.

im gonna scan 2 of my drawings now for you :D

-Galo

Galo
06-18-2002, 05:09 PM
thats one
http://www.revonx.com/stuff/drawing_001.jpg

and this is two
http://www.revonx.com/stuff/drawing_002.jpg

still need a LOT of practice

Asier3d
06-18-2002, 10:06 PM
If you canīt draw, then is impossible that u can sculpt, because (as my anatomy drawing teacher used to say) drawing is not your handīs hability but your headīs and your eyesī hability.
If you canīt see that a coin is a cylinder, a CD box is a cube and a nose is a tetrahedron, the problem is in your mind, not in your hand. But there are a lot of people that sculpts clay an model in 3D an say that they canīt draw. Itīs false. If you have the hability of discomposing a complex object in your mind and re-interpretate it doing a 3d mesh or an sculpture, then you can draw.
The best way to learn to draw is drawing from the real world, because u must force yourself to draw what u see, not what u think that u are seeing.

Drawing skills are fundamental for 3D because is the fastest way to visualize the scheme that is in your head.

Galo
06-19-2002, 07:18 AM
If you canīt see that a coin is a cylinder, a CD box is a cube and a nose is a tetrahedron

Whaaaa,......... hey i can see that..... and i didn't sayd i couldn't draw i only said i had a hard time with the poses...

anyway, im continuing my drawing now.....cya

Iain McFadzen
06-19-2002, 08:18 AM
I can model things I couldn't draw in a million years. Modeling is a skill set which can be learned just like any other, with or without aquiring any related skills (drawing, sculpting et al) first. Being able to draw will certainly help your modeling ability in the sense that it will force you to observe things properly, but to say you can't become an accomplished modeller without any drawing skills is just wrong.

Galo
06-19-2002, 09:26 AM
yeah but like the other guys said, if you wanted to work for a company and they have to choose between you and another modeller and you have an awesome cv and portfolio but you can not draw really well and that other guy draws like a maniak and can model to they will take him instead of you only beceause of his drawing skilzz, i do think now that traditional art is indeed verry important for your cg skillz

blankslatejoe
06-19-2002, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by Duchamp
If you canīt see that a coin is a cylinder, a CD box is a cube and a nose is a tetrahedron, the problem is in your mind, not in your hand


heeeeey, a cd box is technically a rectangular prism... a dice would be more of a cube, although it too would be a rectangular prism. you know, one of those whole square vrs rectangle things.

anyway though, good point, about ability to see versus ability in hands. If you visualize what you want the picture to look like on paper, not just imagine, but visualize the elements important to the drawing, it's better.
It's like eating healthy, you pass a certain point where it becomes ingrained in your mindset and becomes habit. However, like eating healthy, a little faltering can become tempting. if you stop drawing, stop practising often, then you will start to lose your abilities and confidence.

so anyway, yes, seeing what you want to draw,making the move from the physical object to the two dimensional representation in your head is half the battle. But a trained hand can still mean the difference between a perfect picture and a coulda-been picture.

I dont know if you need to draw well to beable to model or scultp though. You could look at some artists, like cristo and picasso, who sculptures reflect their drawings and drawing abilities, but then again you could look at calder or duchamp, (haha, your nickname is duchamp), and you never really see their concept sketches for their sculptures. (If they exist, id like to see duchamps sketches for his dada work, those would be ammusing)

(and yes, I know duchamp did paint, but im making a point here, and unlike picasso, duchamps more popular paintings reflect only a single era of min-representation, not to knock on the genuis if youre a fan)


Also, do you think the greek sculptors, myron, Polyclitus, Praxiteles or Lysippos could draw well? All we see of their work is carved marble and reliefs... That's just something to consider, hope I'm not offending anyone.

Galo
06-19-2002, 02:03 PM
thank's, can anyone comment my drawings i posted earlyer please ?

Iain McFadzen
06-19-2002, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by Galo
yeah but like the other guys said, if you wanted to work for a company and they have to choose between you and another modeller and you have an awesome cv and portfolio but you can not draw really well and that other guy draws like a maniak and can model to they will take him instead of you only beceause of his drawing skilzz, i do think now that traditional art is indeed verry important for your cg skillz

The question wasn't "will drawing help you get a job?" it was "does much drawing helps your modeling really?". Drawing is a another skill, so obviously it will help you get a job. So would being able to write scripts or plugins for your app, but that won't make you a better modeller either :)

Galo
06-19-2002, 02:53 PM
sorry your right

blankslatejoe
06-19-2002, 04:10 PM
scripting make you a better modeler? no... probably not. a more efficient one? very likely.

l_farley13_l
06-19-2002, 04:32 PM
I think what ws meant was that if you can sculpt, than the ability to visualize things in your head, and block out shapes and forms is already learned, and therefore, with a little practice, can be used to develope good drawing ability as well.

So in the end, I bet you could Draw them if you developed that set of motor skills, since that prinicple ability must also be engrained in you for you to be able to see what's worng/right as your modeling.

I also I agree that a quick form/volume sketch + the topography you can use is a good way to think about problems you might run into, and is mutch faster than having to weld and unweld a model into a good topography. (something I still have to work on!) Some like to use sculpty for the same purpose.

Some crits on your drawings : be bold in your camera angles if you don't get it right the first time - build on it, and do try getting the whole body into it - the face is simply one side of a cube (rect prism) like shape w/ a couple of bumps, 2 sockets, and a skewed rectangle (nose). Very often you can define the face by where it isn't - where the neck appears, what angle and flow it has into the base of the head. Just a quick notation of the angle of the nose and orientation of the eyes is good enough for figure drawing. froma an annonymouse poster (you can probably guess who it is!)

"Detail does not mean tons of little stuff. It can mean doing the larger things more accurately. What is the EXACT angle of the head and the ribcage, for example? That implies detail that is not there.

Accurate contour can imply a lot. Silhouette carries more info than almost anything else. "

that should do for now ;) (and we all esp. me have to work on life drawing!)

see you,

Farley13

PS another link (http://www.geocities.com/figuredrawing4animation/thoughts.html)

blankslatejoe
06-19-2002, 04:35 PM
galo, your drawings are a decent start, but you must continue to draw everyday. Drawing from your imagination is important, and invaluable, but also drawing from life, or even drawing from photos can be extremely helpful. many traditional art teachers will tell you that you should never use photos, but any skilled illustrator will say that they would be no where without them.

Remember, to learn to cook, dont start with an expensive-to-make-dish,start with trying to make ommelettes, hamburgers, pancakes. cheap, easy, quick things.

buy some cheap newprint or computer paper and just draw, at least an hour everyday or at least as much as you can fit in. it doesnt matter what you draw, but you've got to train your eye and hands.
try drawing all sorts of things, not just people, for instance, I enjoy drawing all sorts of wirey,technical things.

if you draw everyday you may start to see a drastic improvement within a month or two, and each day you'll improve a little more.

Now, specifically for your drawings, your anatomy is a little off, the eyes are a little too high and the chins are a little too long. It's a good start, but is very stylized, which works against you here.
However I have a feeling once you become more comfortable with this technique, you'll transform it into your own, "galo-nized" method of drawing.

keep at it, don't be afraid to make some lines thicker and some thinner, experiment with your pencils, add some light and shadows, give them more detail in their eyes. Right now they look like standard anime characters, make them look like they're unique, and they'll be more fun to draw again and again and again. If you're happy with these characters now, wait and try drawing the same ones 5 more times. It'll get better with each attempt.
wow, this is a long post.

anyway, they're not bad, and if you're just starting, like you say you are, then you've got a good foothold to start from. You've got everything you need to improve; dedication, tools and inspiration, but don't forget that drawing is like training; the more you do, the better you get.

good luck!

here's some of my drawing/2d posts:

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10556
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10669
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6711

blankslatejoe
06-19-2002, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by l_farley13_l
I think what ws meant was that if you can sculpt, than the ability to visualize things in your head, and block out shapes and forms is already learned, and therefore, with a little practice, can be used to develope good drawing ability as well.

So in the end, I bet you could Draw them if you developed that set of motor skills, since that prinicple ability must also be engrained in you for you to be able to see what's worng/right as your modeling.


I suppose your right, if you have that vision already, then the rest is motorskills. good critque by the way, you give good advice, farley.

BTW
nice pics on your site's traditional section, i dig man1, food, and hand the best. Your scibbly render skills are most impressive and fun to look at.

Galo
06-19-2002, 04:47 PM
blankslatejoe : Wow, thanks for that post man, i'm a little cranky today cause my website didn't work out at work (sometimes you have a bad day ey...) but you really lightned it up :D thanks again man

you'll transform it into your own, "galo-nized" method of drawing.

Wheheheh that's cool 'Galo-nized' gonna put that line in my favorites :D

-Galo

LucentDreams
06-19-2002, 04:57 PM
I'm with Farley and Duchamp. I am sure Iain may not have great drawings, but I am sure if he needed to draw a head or something, he can do a simple construction that would make it easy for anyone to say that is a head. One note though, Modeling in 3D has one slight difference from drawing, painting, and clay. I think the reason more people are capable of doing some 3D is you can infinitely change things. move this point for the chin a little, add a little more volume to the eyebrow, add 2 more arms on, all without making and changes to the rest and such. 5 years later you can go in and continue tweaking if you want. I mean anyone that can tweak can do modeling with a mouse, where sculpting painting and drawing all require physical skills too in how you handle the clay or stroke the brush.

As for the drawings... they are coming, I will be doing a bunch of scanning tonight, but the CGtalk project is priority right now.

Hey Farley I'll have it up later today Before I go to meet Craig Bartlett and See a special preview of "Hey Arnold"

l_farley13_l
06-19-2002, 05:01 PM
Joe, lol thanks, but I've got to remain a bit modest here. Check out this (http://www.geocities.com/compileshooter/) an' this (http://pub54.ezboard.com/fcartoonandillustrationparadise66133frm12.showMessage?topicID=292.topic) for somthing impressive ;)

Drawing parts of your body can be fun too, but a little odd, since after a bit it always seems like it's someone else's hand (or head etc.)!

see you (2nd time in like 5 min),

And Skai, you got me before I finished! Thanks, looking foward to the textures ;)

l_Farley13_l

blankslatejoe
06-19-2002, 05:23 PM
on the watercolor link
wow, thats some pretty stuff. watercolor is tricky, ive never done anything satisfying in it, my roomate works a lot with it though (he's medical illustration major)

I like the pics in the second group of posts most, the first and third pics.

for the other link, i like the intro pic and there's a pic buried in the sketches link of a art classroom/lecture. that's kickbutt stuff.

very good stuff, a friend of yours?
-Joe

Galo
06-19-2002, 06:53 PM
verry impressive drawings man, whish i could do that, anyway im gonna try :D

Galo
06-19-2002, 06:54 PM
q : How much time do you guys spend drawing at one day if i may ask ?

kandyman
06-19-2002, 07:20 PM
Galo: You should draw from life (friends, family members, your mirror image, your hands, your feet) or copy photos from magazines.

This will help your ability to invent plausible characters later on.

Marin

blankslatejoe
06-19-2002, 07:35 PM
i used to try and spend about an hour a day, although work has been kicking my butt these past weeks and ive been so sleepy.

LucentDreams
06-20-2002, 06:27 AM
well with school right now, at least 9 hours a day, but I am in classical animations so there is a slight difference. I try to make 6 hours of Life drawing a week, which is hard right now with so much other stuff, but I always fit in two 30 minute sessions of 30 sec's and 2 min's. Before school I didn't draw nearly enough, but from now on I will make sure to draw at least an hour a day. always have a good pen and a small pocket sketchbook or something with you. when in resteraunts, use napkins or ask for crayons and childrens placemats. I get a lot of great drawings with crayons.

blankslatejoe
06-20-2002, 01:28 PM
definitly, crayons are so underrated, You're right kaiskai.
I'm off for the summer now, but I still try and draw that hour a day still.
Over the school year, it's a lot more, but I'm in "summer mode" so I completely forgot to mention it.

Last semester I spent about 6 hours a week life drawing(1class), and about 4 hours a week storyboarding (also 1 class). and that's not very much (look at kaiskai's schedule...animators get their butts whooped with drawing. so do medical illustration people too.) This past semester was very lecture and typography heavy for me, so there was less drawing than usual. The first few semesters I was drawing 5 hours or so on most days. (fundamentals courses, 3 or 4 life drawing classes a semester)

I'm a "design" major now, with a Digital Imaging emphasis. (kinda like "build-your-own-computer-art-curriculum) at VCU.

where do you guys go?

blankslatejoe
06-20-2002, 01:29 PM
you must be proud, galo, you started a really really really long thread here...not that I mind.

Galo
06-20-2002, 01:49 PM
Yeah i did :D

But it's just that you guys are really helpfull and this question is one that none has really thought through and the views are even more impressive so this question was really important for many people, but i do think the awnser is here now.

'Yes, drawing helps you improve your modeling skillz'

I mean people do come here to c some great artwork and get some really helpfull tips and i think this tip is one many people were waiting for cause i really didn't knew drawing was that important, i mean Traditional art is as important as all the other forms of learning in CG.

And i don't know why lilldragon hasn't posted back yet.....

I mean he has to start a new Category about traditional art at this forum...

Galo
06-20-2002, 01:54 PM
Kaiskai : your website is not working, i want to c some of your drawings....


blankslatejoe : nice gallery :D

blankslatejoe
06-20-2002, 01:58 PM
Thanks man, I appreciate the comment

Your site has a nice intro splash page... :)

blankslatejoe
06-20-2002, 02:01 PM
speaking of missing people, where's that mamafool Farley at? :bowdown: :p

LucentDreams
06-20-2002, 06:39 PM
Farley is probably busy with the CG group colaboration project, he is sorta directing it. Me I am so busy I have troubles getting things done, I think smething will only take an hour, but by thre time I get to it its already late and thenI spend more time than I should. Gotta get some done today darn table. :rolleyes:

As for where I am at, I didn't notice your were i Richmond, I am downtown Van studying at VFS. Didn't know we were so close eh? I have exaclty four months before I graduate, and in that time I have to animate my classical film, clean it up, scan and DIP it, then do the editing and audio, and storyboard design and create a flash film. No problem, this program isn't intesive at a....zzzzzzzzzzzzzz..zzzzzzz..zzzzzzz..zz.:insane:

blankslatejoe
06-20-2002, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by Kaiskai
Farley is probably busy with the CG group colaboration project, he is sorta directing it. Me I am so busy I have troubles getting things done, I think smething will only take an hour, but by thre time I get to it its already late and thenI spend more time than I should. Gotta get some done today darn table. :rolleyes:

As for where I am at, I didn't notice your were i Richmond, I am downtown Van studying at VFS. Didn't know we were so close eh? I have exaclty four months before I graduate, and in that time I have to animate my classical film, clean it up, scan and DIP it, then do the editing and audio, and storyboard design and create a flash film. No problem, this program isn't intesive at a....zzzzzzzzzzzzzz..zzzzzzz..zzzzzzz..zz.:insane:


uh.....
youre in vancouver? thats pretty far from richmond.... im in richmond, Virginia. (although, right now im in the washington DC area for the summer.) Vancouver is right near portland, isn't it?
I'm guessing from from your curriculum that VFS stands for vancouver film school? How is it?

I'm thinking of looking for a anim/film grad school out there along the west coast, im a junior at VCU (virginia commonwealth University) and have started thinking about what to do after college. Do you have any reccomendations?

I can definitly understand being busy, things are crazy here. from the moment i wake up to the moment i go to sleep im running around getting things done.
Goodluck on your movies/portfolios and such, and when you have time, get your site back up. I'd like to see what you have, kaiskai

LucentDreams
06-20-2002, 07:43 PM
geeze I figured Richmond British columbia which would have meant your were int the vancouver metropolitan area.

As for schools, what are you looking at doing, Classical or 3D, effects, ca, designing or modeling?

As for the site yeah I am sorry guys, I just got a new server, and I have been talikng with my friend about helping me with the site but I am way too busy right now.

blankslatejoe
06-20-2002, 08:03 PM
haha, yeah i figured you meant a richmond that was somewhere a bit closer. if youre ever in this richmond though, gimmi an email or something, we'll go make fun of people stuck in traffic.


I'm looking for a school with 3d animation. If there was a good film dept. as well, it'd be a plus, because id like to take some film/effects classes. Any ideas?

LucentDreams
06-20-2002, 08:14 PM
Well VFS has a great film program and their #D program spans off about halfway into either EFX or CA, all the CA and modeling students don't so that well in my opinion, but the EFX and compositing stuff is fabulous. I am only familiar with the stuff from the main schools and the local schools (Sheridan, Savannah, Gnomon, Cal arts, Vanarts, VFS, CDIS, and Capilano College)

blankslatejoe
06-20-2002, 08:27 PM
yeah, savannah is tempting. it even looks really nice, but im not a fan of the southern heat. a friend of mine is there for jewerly design, and if i had money, it would be a good place on east coast to go. cal arts i know very little about, gmonon i dont think offers grad.

in my area there are a few schools with an art program, but only VCU has an art school specifically. UMD is supposed to be good, but that's out of state. if i wanted out of state I might as well head north to RISD or RIT or one of them other new england schools.

I think west coast would make a nice change of scenery for me. ive been east coast for over a decade now...
thanks for your input. I appreciate the help... kinda weird how off topic this convo has gotten.

to return to the roots:
yes drawing is good.

Galo
06-21-2002, 07:39 AM
kaiskai : i can help you with you're website if you want....

LucentDreams
06-21-2002, 02:53 PM
kay the lifedrawigns and such will have to wait along with quick notes, but here is here are two scans, one of a tighter cleaner version of my main characer, and the rougher looser version. When I animate him though I draw really rough loose and round. so I often draw his arms as ellipses and such, and then in the second stage I change it to this, and then I clean it up to something like the second one(this isn't actually clean but gives the idea a bit better)
http://www.cgi.third-era.com/~kaiskai/newgorilla.jpg

Galo
06-21-2002, 03:19 PM
Wow man, that's really awesome, it's a simple but efficient style though.... i like ..... maybe ad more details though

blankslatejoe
06-21-2002, 03:25 PM
haha that's so kickbutt!! I love it man, reminds me of Genndy Tartakovsky's work. Very very cool,man, I dig it lots.

LucentDreams
06-21-2002, 03:29 PM
have to keep him simple to animate, as for more detail, the legs stand out because they are so clean, I have a version with feet but he will be wearing shoes most the time so that isn't an issue, and he has two hairs on the top of his head (v shape) that aren't in here, but he also wears a hat. on the back there is a grey patch as he is a silverback ape. I have sonsidered making fur on his arms by the hands there for a little more detail, but simplicity is the key, this is a graphic style UPA and McCracken/Tartakovsky influenced (Powerpuff Girls movie is only two weeks away.:bounce: ) This is most heavily influenced by Tartakovsky's Samurai Jack.

also his brow is typically a much heavier line. You'll never guess what he is doing in my film though.

I have a great crowd scene though, I have managed to sneak some of my influences in into the scene, Wilma, Samurai Jack, and a Bruce TImm's girl. The crowd is animated in the same fashion as the crowd getting off the subway in Fantasia 200. Sorta my dedication to manyo f my influences, still trying to figure out how to get Gerald Mcboing boing in there, he is a little too graphic in the rounder fashion.

blankslatejoe
06-21-2002, 03:36 PM
you can't beat samurai jack. I mean, its cartoons, sci fi, and jedaigeki films (samurai films) all in one. what's not to like?

It's great to see nationally syndicated things like this. hopefully some kids out there will go rent seven samurai.

looking forward to powerpuff too!

blankslatejoe
06-21-2002, 03:39 PM
had to yahoo search bruce tim. Shoulda known (batman :) ). Good luck on the animations, post some clips if you can!!

LucentDreams
06-21-2002, 03:40 PM
Have you seen episode uhm 13 I think, with AKU telling the kids storys to boost his image with them and hurt Jack's image. That one is not stop laughter, and I love Ep 14 with the "Jump good" ooooooh man brilliant writing, design, animation, great composition and backgrounds, wonderfulcolours love the lack of silhoutette line, and the action oooh the action man what a great cartoon.

LucentDreams
06-21-2002, 03:42 PM
thats a good idea, I'll post the leica as soon as I get the new audio recordings into it. My original had me reading infront of my pc witha cheap mic and windows sound recorder. and I'll definitely have a WIP thread once things get going. I'll keep you guys informed.

WELL OFF TO ANIMATE TALK TO YOU GUYS LATER:wavey:

blankslatejoe
06-21-2002, 03:58 PM
yeah, man, ill be a frequenter to your wip thread. byebye for now.

Galo
06-22-2002, 11:54 AM
Hey guys, listen..... yesterday i drew the whole night..... just trying to draw stick figures in diferent positions, i drew like 3 hours and spenden like 30 pages of paper that are all in my trash bin now......

I thrown them away cause they weren't any good, i have a huge problem with the perspectives and positioning my caracters, thinking up a decent pose is really hard

i alway try to begin with a circle (the head) and the draw the action line, the arms, torso, hips legs aso...

But when it's finished it looks completely of proportion and perspectives.

i tried stick figures which were sitting standing hanging running laying down jumping and so on..

actually none of them really worked out well.

does anyone has any tips about positioning your stick figures cause yesterday i went mad cause it wouldn't work out preoperly..

Maybe it's just practise but after 3 hours stick figure drawing you have to be able to come up with something decent don't ya ?

Asier3d
06-22-2002, 01:23 PM
Download this book (if u havenīt downloaded yet) , i think that itīs the whole solution for your problems with perspective and structure in your drawings :buttrock:

Asier3d
06-22-2002, 01:24 PM
Iīm sorry

THIS BOOK:

http://www.fineart.sk/page_01.htm

Galo
06-22-2002, 01:43 PM
Where's the pdf ?

Galo
06-22-2002, 02:05 PM
Teleport Pro Always works !!
:D

Galo
06-22-2002, 02:41 PM
Alright Printing every page out right now, that will take a while but it's good reference so...

LucentDreams
06-22-2002, 05:47 PM
Just a note, when I am animating, I always draw a perspective gid really quick and place it on the my animation disc and draw on paper stacked over, this way I can always flip or look through with the lighttable to see if my character in in the right perspective. and these aren't fancy accurate grids either, just freehand 30 second vanishing point some diagonals going down, and then horizontals to define the gound plane, the closer the horizontal lines are, ther lower the camera is to the ground.

When I draw quickly, and I am concerned with accuracy, (this is my preference not a rule) I draw the action line first, the the hips (either underwear shaped or a ball) and the ribcage, then one thigh, then a line for the chin and a triangle for the foot. I then draw one line for the entire second leg, and then worry abouth the diretion of the head and its basic shape then the arms are treated just as the legs are.

This is only one method I use, but I find that for many artists out there (including me) the legs are an area that is often wrong, so try to get it in early, so that you get them in while you are familiar with the size of the torso, if you do the head first, you are comparing size and perspective off of somthng that can differ from the res of the body since the head can tilt and rotate causing it to have its own perspective and be too small for reliable size somparison.

LucentDreams
06-22-2002, 07:20 PM
sorry posted link wrong lets try again

15 second torso studies
http://www.cgi.third-era.com/~kaiskai/lifedrawings/4.jpg
30 second Gestures using the method in last post
http://www.cgi.third-era.com/~kaiskai/lifedrawings/2.jpg
http://www.cgi.third-era.com/~kaiskai/lifedrawings/3.jpg
http://www.cgi.third-era.com/~kaiskai/lifedrawings/1.jpg
http://www.cgi.third-era.com/~kaiskai/lifedrawings/5.jpg
http://www.cgi.third-era.com/~kaiskai/lifedrawings/6.jpg
http://www.cgi.third-era.com/~kaiskai/lifedrawings/7.jpg
http://www.cgi.third-era.com/~kaiskai/lifedrawings/8.jpg
http://www.cgi.third-era.com/~kaiskai/lifedrawings/9.jpg

Is there a way to get the img code turned on so these will show up in the thread.

blankslatejoe
06-22-2002, 08:01 PM
take a look at classic paintings, or even comics or anything with a lot of people, and try and trace the stick figure skeletons underneath them (use acetate/transparencies so you can quickly erase and try another one if needed)

I found that trick to REALLY help me when trying to figure out how different artists delt with perspective and figures. It'll let you approach the drawing like the artist approached it. :)

LucentDreams
06-22-2002, 08:44 PM
Tracing is always a good way to learn actually. It also helps you figure out how they do their strokes, figure out how they overlap lines, how few lines they use and other various things. Trracing as a learning tool is always good. but also learn how to flip, this is like tracing but instead of looking through and copying lines exactly, you put what you want to compy underneath and then flip your draing page to lokk at it, then draw, then flip to look at it, then draw, and this allows you to not look but see what is happening and where things are, when you get good at this then drawing from life becomes a lot easier. and it allows you to copy a drawing but with you own cadence and style.

here are some more images to show I don't only do 30 second gestures, thought they are most important for me as a classical animator, in 3D you need to do studies and renders as well.

not too sure about this one but I like it
http://www.cgi.third-era.com/~kaiskai/lifedrawings/a1.jpg

another 30 second gesture, notice how you can tell what way the model was facing, the action and proportions,.
http://www.cgi.third-era.com/~kaiskai/lifedrawings/a2.jpg

either a 1 or 2 minute drawing not sure, usually I get rough shding if it is 2 minutes but not always notice the 30 second gesture then refined for the next 30 seconds, always build up your drawings
http://www.cgi.third-era.com/~kaiskai/lifedrawings/a3.jpg

pretty much a five minute 2 tone rendering with terrible drapery
http://www.cgi.third-era.com/~kaiskai/lifedrawings/a4.jpg

stylised arm muscle anatomy study. two minutes
http://www.cgi.third-era.com/~kaiskai/lifedrawings/a5.jpg

This head uses what is called envelope drawing, basically I use quick gesture lines to draw an envelope over the silhoutee, and the build the details inside, notice the us of three curved lines across the eye, the side of the head in front of the ear, and across the neck used to ficure out the angle and tilt of the head before drawing
http://www.cgi.third-era.com/~kaiskai/lifedrawings/H1.jpg

an ugly little head gesture 20 seconds, but notice the use of the curve on the front to define the overall shape of the face,.
http://www.cgi.third-era.com/~kaiskai/lifedrawings/h2.jpg

a few five minute hand studies, notice the use of curve lins for shading to also develop the sense of volume rather than actual lighting. As well there are many quick gesture lines done in the first 30 seconds to define the action of each finger and the overall actions and shape of the hand
http://www.cgi.third-era.com/~kaiskai/lifedrawings/h3.jpg
http://www.cgi.third-era.com/~kaiskai/lifedrawings/h4.jpg
http://www.cgi.third-era.com/~kaiskai/lifedrawings/h5.jpg

None of these drawings are perfect by any means, i mean in the last one if you look carefully, the poles angle is slightly off compared to the hand, I drew a light quick line of the pole first but when I began the hand I want on a slight tangent, but this is still a good piece, because it was quick rough, and the hand itself is looks good, especially if being impaled The important thing is get them done quick, in a set amount of time, and never touch them again, no touchups nothing, ifd they are wrong that is fine

you'll notices in A3.jpg, I actually change the feet while I was in the alloted time period, they are still wrong, but I will leave them now. Don't be afraid to draw over something again, get the lgestures out as quick as possible (while thinking carefully not hastily though) and then if the gesture is wrong, when you are building up the details, go "wait a minute this leg is not quite right the angle should be more like this, and correct it.

Which brings me to another thing, don't erase. The only time i use an eraser in life drawing, is to highlight when rendering. allows you to shade a whle area witha midtone,a nd then erase to build the highlights

Anyways hope some of this helps you Galo, and anyone else reading this thread. I wich more people would add to this thread in both input and artwork, but maybe the tutrial thread I suggested would be better. I will create it ewhen I have time.

blankslatejoe
06-22-2002, 09:31 PM
wow, kaiskai, those hands are really slick. perfect style!!
hands can be tricky sometimes for me, but those look great.

as for gesture, yeah, ive had to do a lot of the 30 second gestures, they soemtimes end up being my favorite pieces. Gotta make sure you're using cheap paper though.

vine charcoal helps me out with gestures, its a naturally messy stick, so i dont mind goin all over the placE (helps me loosen up), funfunfun.

LucentDreams
06-22-2002, 09:41 PM
charcoal, China markers are my favourite, I also use Ebony pencils and Pricmacolour black or indigoblue a lot too.

blankslatejoe
06-23-2002, 01:50 AM
china markers.... never heard of them, but using my deductive sherlock powers of reasoning I'm guessing that they are another name for those brush markers i see in store windows, the ones with a big soft felt tip? some of your work looks like it could have been made with those...?

Oh, and kaskai and galo. I think this post has gone on long enough for me to feel justified in using the "tu impersona" (bad spanish class joke). I'm officially buddylist-ing you guys, if that's ok with you two?

LucentDreams
06-23-2002, 05:41 AM
lol yeah fine with me consider yourselves buddylisted. As for china markers, They are actually called that cause they are used for writing on china ware. They are almost like crayons, so they slide like nothing on any material. They can write on glass, metal, rock, almost anything. Plumbers carpenters use them all the time, Glen KEane actualy does his animation with them sometimes though they can't erase which can be an issue in animation. They are also known as grease pencils

Galo
06-23-2002, 04:29 PM
Wow guys thanks again, im reading that book now from fineart it's really helping me out and kaiskai, those drawings are great man!

Which brings me to another thing, don't erase. The only time i use an eraser in life drawing, is to highlight when rendering. allows you to shade a whle area witha midtone,a nd then erase to build the highlights

That's one thing i learned when i was a kid from my 'drawing teatcher', cause when i was a kid the only thing i used to do was draw, maybe tonight i'll scan some of my work from that time, if i can find any :D

anyway im gonna contineue my gesture and stickfigures drawing now, catch you later

MaskTX
06-23-2002, 06:45 PM
Yes:cool:

blankslatejoe
06-23-2002, 07:03 PM
yeah, more often than not, erasing just makes the drawing all smudgy. its better to correct your lines right on top fo the old ones.

LucentDreams
06-23-2002, 07:57 PM
well my way of preventing it is that most of my tools don't erase : )

Grease pencils, Prisma colours, Pen, Markers, Ebony's(to a point) don't erase. The only thing I still use that erases are Stanford colour pencils for animation, and my 0.3 and 0.5 Mechanical pencils.

The WIP should be up tonight or tomorrow with some images and clips maybe, all depends on how much i can get done tonight.

blankslatejoe
06-24-2002, 01:57 PM
I'm gonna have to mess with these grease pencils sometime... they sort of remind me of oilbars... those are messytoo, but fun.

Galo
06-24-2002, 02:42 PM
What kind of tools do you guys use for tools anyway, i just use 3 pencils HB, H2 and B2 and some softpencils

Yesterday it did my head in cause it wouldn't work... i tried to draw a photo from a reference, or tried just to draw the black areas cause the book said so.... it wouldn't work don't know why but i went mad about it, my urge to draw and develop my skills is so big that i think i expect to much of myself.....

While i told myself not to go mad if it wouldn't work out :D

im just going to practice and practice..... untill i run out of pencils and paper....

blankslatejoe
06-24-2002, 03:07 PM
you're teaching yourself the most important lesson, galo, no matter what hints or tricks anyone tries to tell you, nothing can substitute for practise practise practise.

as for materials. heres a photorealistic pic i did for an illustration class using lifedrawing combined with drawing from photos:

http://ramsites.net/~mirabellojr/pages/portpages/pt_shoe.htm

I used hb and 3b pencils with some very scarce use of 6b, without any erasing on coldpress illustration board.

As for the harder pencils, the 2h, 4h and upward, they're tricky for me because of the amount of clay mixed in or not mixed in (i forget which) with the graphite. This makes a very light line, but it also carves into the paper. Try this experiment:

use your 2h or 4h and draw a dark line on the paper. Erase it. Take a softer pencil, like a 3b or even a number 2 yellow pencil (same thing as a 2b) and shade lightly over where you erased.
You'll see a white mark pop out from where the 2h line used to be.

So, the moral of the story is; be careful with those H pencils, theyre useful for a lot of things, but you have to be doubly careful with them. Or at least I do, I mess up a lot.

(on the 3b, 4b, 6b side of things, the graphite applies so loosely to the paper that erasing haphazardly will smudge more than erase, making things very ugly)

It's often better to buy a pad of tracing paper and transfer your own drawings over again to correct them, instead of erasing.

For alot of my life drawing, I use vine charcoal, see these two pics:
http://ramsites.net/~mirabellojr/pages/portpages/pt_mod2.htm
http://ramsites.net/~mirabellojr/pages/portpages/pt_mod3.htm

for this next drawing, i think i used a graphite stick, which is basically a pencil without the wood casing.
http://ramsites.net/~mirabellojr/pages/portpages/pt_mod1.htm

During the summer I don't get to the studios much, so I have a harder time using the messier materials.
I'm starting to fool around a lot with prismacolors and pens, because they're fun: see these:

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10555
http://ramsites.net/~mirabellojr/pages/portpages/ps_fen2.htm

I usually will doodle in my sdketchbook with mechanical pencil, and will use whatever is around me. for finished projects, I often use illustration board or a slightly heavier than normal paper. I work mostly in black and white, but that's because color materials do get a bit pricey. I used to work a lot with pastels, but then your talking ultra$$$ and ultra messy.

Anyway, what do you guys think?

Galo
06-24-2002, 04:18 PM
FANTASTIC WORK!!!

i love it!

LucentDreams
06-24-2002, 05:08 PM
I must say I really loved your gallery BSJ amzing stuff, I never have been able to achieve that kind of photorealism.

AS for what I use, oddly enough I never use graphitepencils anymore for drawing, other than the mechanical ones for cleanup. for regula sketching I use Prisma colour pencils the most, and well as ebony pancils and often a pend to get realy loose and rough. as for life drawing and such, I usually use Grease pencils andcharcoal, though I never fear to use a prisma colour there either. Last I use he Stanford colour pencils for all my animation stuff. when I do ink sketches, I just bought some letraset cool grays and warm greys to try soem marker rendering. Haven't tested them yet but I love the images I have seen by artists like Feng zhu and such.

blankslatejoe
06-24-2002, 05:35 PM
Thanks guys, i appreciate the compliments, yeah, kaiskai, I saw fengs work and bought a bunch of those grays too.
actually, I was introduced to Fengs work by that tank rendering on CGTALK awhile back, where the artists modeled fengs tank. I hopped over to fengs site (www.artbyfeng.com) and read his tutorial, which has sparked this whole concept art craze thing inside of me.

oddly enough, I've found the only difference between photorealism and not photorealism is just sharpening your pencil. ALOT.:D :D

Anyway galo, post some more of your work, this thread is probably my favorite ongoing one right now, and we should try and keep it a live for awhile. :)

LucentDreams
06-24-2002, 05:44 PM
I knew of Fangs stuff before that tank, but that tank was what sold me on the markers too.

Galo
06-24-2002, 08:04 PM
Hey guys, im drawing for about 4 hours now and only stick figures in action and it's really working out well now, im a happy guy :D

but i have one quaestion again :D

If i finished my stick figure, i begin drawing the outlines of the figure but when i do my drawing get's to bussy with all these lines and i was wondering, how do you keep it clean, draw the outlines on another paper on a lightbox or what ?

-Galo

blankslatejoe
06-24-2002, 08:19 PM
thats one way. or use a light light pencil. or use a light gray marker to do your scribble work. or, and this is the way i used to sometimes do it, I do my scribbles and trace the complete outline along with the more important stress lines and transfer them to a clean sheet.

But, who says a lot of scribbles are bad? , if you work darker for your final image, the scribbles usually look cooler still intact underneath, teachers dig it too, because they say it shows process. :)

Galo
06-24-2002, 08:42 PM
Ahh, i did these with just a H2 pencil, but i can use a blue light one, but you can't erase the damn line!

blankslatejoe
06-24-2002, 09:07 PM
ahh, but if its a special kind of blue pencil, it wont show up when you photocopy the image. try it out and see, lot's of light light blues disappear in photocopies :)

oh, i can't see your most recent pic, by the way... interesting


Well guys, im heading home for the evening, talk to you guys tommorrow.

blankslatejoe
06-26-2002, 06:35 PM
come on galo, post some more of yer work, this thread was a lot of fun, but it seems to be fading...

icky
06-26-2002, 08:46 PM
I think you should examine other artists work too. Try to copy them as exactly as you can and that'll help you learn how not to over do things and how things are done.

I copied a Leonardo Da Vinci last summer for a bit of punishment. I used black charcoal pencils with some coloured brown pencils. I smudged it with tissue paper!

Here it is :

http://www.ickystuff.co.uk/myleo.jpg

Also, you might want to check out my 'knowing when to stop' tutorial that's on my (still got errors) website. I think that my server is busted at the mo, but hopefully it'll work :

www.ickystuff.co.uk/stop.htm

Good Luck
:thumbsup:

p.s Galo, have you got any ideas on how to fix those pesky problems?

blankslatejoe
06-26-2002, 08:52 PM
wow, icky, nice stuff, I like your leo copy, but I likethe pic of the guy reading (on the tutorial) even more, its very confident and well done.
I'll have to check out the rest of yer site later, I'm heading home for the day now!

icky
06-26-2002, 09:00 PM
Thanks Blankslatejoe, I wish I could take credit for that! That's by Edar Degas (it says so on the left of the pic ;)

I did the unfinished one at the bottom... It's unfinished cos my girlfriend is a huge figgiter!

Now I think about it, the only pic that I've ever 'finished' of her was from a photograph.

:thumbsup:

blankslatejoe
06-26-2002, 09:12 PM
thats the one i was talking about! I read the site, I wasnt talking about the bearded fella, I was talking about the one you made, of the person on the bed, with the feet up. Its very slick looking, I personally love gestural stuff:):)

icky
06-26-2002, 09:18 PM
In that case... Thank you even more! But... now I feel like a dum ass. Ah, that felling of normality.

:thumbsup:

icky
06-26-2002, 09:25 PM
Hey wait a minute! :eek: That's no guy. That's my girl friend! Damn, I've never been good at capturing the female figure. But I'm better now, seeing as I just drawn 300 frames of Venus in my 2d animation.

She's really hot! Which one? Err both!

http://www.ickystuff.co.uk/venus.jpg

:thumbsup:

l_farley13_l
06-27-2002, 01:04 AM
I agree very nice stuff, I'll enjoy seeing some more of your posts ;)

What you guys recomend for supplies ? I've been using ballpoint/#2's and comp. paper - not that it matters too much, but I'd love to get a better flow to the lines. Plus smudging ;)

Thanks, for sharing, and great site BTW,

Farley13

icky
06-27-2002, 08:19 AM
Thanks l_farley13_l! Personally, I like to use Colerase pencils (www.cromacolour.com). I know the guys at Disney use Colerase too, but that's not why I like 'em. I like the way the lines look (so fluid!).

http://www.ickystuff.co.uk/cheetah.jpg

If you like that, then search for 'Glen Keane'. He is a master animator at Disney's who's lines are almost edible!

About smudging, I love to smudge! :

http://www.ickystuff.co.uk/bromiss.jpg

But I was told by Victor Navone (from Pixar) that I should not smudge with my fingers so much. He pointed out that sometimes I smudge for a 2d ascetic, instead of showing true form. So if you wanna work at Pixar too, then go careful there.

:thumbsup:

blankslatejoe
06-27-2002, 02:04 PM
icky, sorry saying it was a guy at the bottom pic, but it looks exactly like an asian buddy of mine!! Sometimes people become almost genderless in gesture drawings, since it's mostly about pose and form and accents. I can see now how the femaleness fits in. Good drawing though, I still like it, whoever it is.

Cute little animation cells too, she's a dern cute cartoon!

:)

Somewhere in this thread I posted what materials I use most often... I think it's on like..page 3 or 4 or seomthing. ahwell...

blankslatejoe
06-27-2002, 02:05 PM
holy cow, just saw the cheetah, veyr very impressive!

icky
06-27-2002, 08:32 PM
:)

LucentDreams
06-27-2002, 11:52 PM
colerase pencils are also great for rendering too. I do occasional rendered backgrounds with them. They are my main animation pencil too, though I do my rough thumnails and such with prisma colour first, then start doing my keys with the Colerase.

Galo
06-28-2002, 07:45 AM
Hey guys, finally yesterday after iv'e saw bladeII which was verry inspiring with his specialFX... i've finally drawn my first picture, i'll scan it tonight and upload it for you...... im not satisfied with it but what the heck...

LucentDreams
06-28-2002, 08:02 AM
can't wait to see it;)

blankslatejoe
06-28-2002, 01:20 PM
yes man, post the pic, post the pic

Galo
06-28-2002, 05:53 PM
I'm not really happy with this but what the heck :D

blankslatejoe
06-28-2002, 06:05 PM
well, he looks a little goofy, but it's definitly a progression... ill write a better critique when my boss leaves the room.

LucentDreams
06-28-2002, 06:15 PM
well it does need some work, but I do see some great things happening in it, there is foreshortening in the legs, which is goo, but try drawing them as cylinders, or from a profile first to get a better idea of where things whould be when doing extreme foreshortening. I see some anime influence, another series of books to check out would be the How to draw manga series, I have the one on tone, really helpful.

blankslatejoe
06-28-2002, 06:58 PM
ok, anatomy crit time, your wrists are a little skinny, and it looks like you put the hands behind the back because you didn't want to draw them.
remember, you COULD not draw the hands, but then you'll never learn how to draw them right. If you draw the hands, no matter how bad they look, they're one more drawing closer to what you're striving for. Every artist, and im sure icky and kaiskai will agree with me here, has drawn a hundred things they are not happy with for every one thing they are happy with, it's part of the process.

Also, the shirt is a little funky, the way it falls over the clavicle area. I can see what you're trying to do, and it's a good idea, but keep in mind that the shirt would not melt into the skin there quite like that, instead it hangs just over it. Even spandex would rest on top, creating a small shadows (look at some photos)

be carefull with the pectoral muscles too, they're not quite that volumptous on most people, at least guys. try using a base shape of a rectangle instead of a ovalish shape, that might help, and raise them up a bit, the bottom of the male pect lines up about mid bicept..

Good job though, it is a big improvement, and im sure if you keep at it you'll see yourself becomes more and more skilled. They say it take 10 years to become finessed in a hobby. I dunno if i believe that, but keep at it, and you'll improve.

Oh by the way, when I first started learning, my impossible thing to draw was feet. Feet kicked my butt in all my drawings for years, unti I gave up on hiding them, and then I finally began to improve. Now, they've become like everyother part of the body for me; a collection of forms and shapes.
goodluck!

LucentDreams
06-29-2002, 03:10 AM
feet is still my biggest issue, so when I am life drawing and we get to fiveminutes, I do really detailed foot studies. Quick rendering never hurts either.

Galo
06-29-2002, 12:00 PM
Thanks so much guys, now i will draw the hands and feet and im gonna study some atonomy, i bought myself an atonomybook today so that should help

And i bought a Mannequin which i can put in different shapes and positions to draw better.

-Galo

LucentDreams
06-29-2002, 12:45 PM
For hands and feet the best model is yourself :) as for a mannequin, I actually would reccommend going to your local toy store, and for the same price (about 20-25 dollars Canadian) you should be able to find a 12 inch soldier figure of some sort, theya re generally more accurate anatomically, and they tend to ba able to achieve more poses that are more like a human would pose, some are designed better than others, I have one that even has a small section missing from each side of the chest to make sure the arms have the true fullm obility they should have. Most also come with fairly baggy clothing, and when you bend the legs with the clothing on what better reference for folds and clothing than the action figure.

Galo
06-29-2002, 03:01 PM
12 inch soldier

You mean like an He-man doll ?

K, gonna buy myself one right now :D

Galo
06-29-2002, 03:30 PM
Right i just bought 2 12" action dolls, one spiderman one daredevil :D

And you can even control how the hands are in position and the same with the fingers and toes, wicked :D

And i bought 4 posters 2 of spidey :) and 2 DBZ :D

So let's get the show on the road then :bounce:

blankslatejoe
06-30-2002, 03:27 AM
heck yeah! are those the multijointed daredevils and spideys? funny, eh, I've used them myself for references from time to time, like when I've had to draw a pose where it's hard to find a reference for ( I was drawing a strange pose of someone swimming, it's hard to find a model for that, and those little wooden things never hold a position)

never underestimate the power of spider, hes not perfect-anatomy wise, but is still good enough to work from, and he looks dern cool. This here's a 6 inch figure of 2099 spidey.

Yiorgz
07-18-2002, 08:02 PM
Wow... this is a really good thread.. I caught on a bit late and have not read all of it yet.

Even if someone else has posted this before, it might be useful as a refresher.

I bought a good book on drawing a while ago called "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain" by Betty Edwards.

I recommend this to people who:

- think they can not draw
- think they can draw

If you read the book, you'll understand what I mean..

There's a website if anyone is interested:

http://www.drawright.com/

:D Well... off to read the rest of this thread..

blankslatejoe
07-22-2002, 01:23 AM
yep, that's one of the best books out there, owna copy myself :)

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