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SandraK
07-23-2010, 10:55 AM
Sigh. They're gorgeous. According to a guy at pixar, they are just perfect spheres with a fancy shader. No iris, no pupil. Just a sphere. He couldn't give any more details, naturally. Weather that's true or not I don't know.

I'm a concept modeler needing to create a cartoony character, but I need to get a better feeling for the character of my sculpts with a good set of eyes. How do I re-create that pixar look? I googled, you-tubed and came across some archived cgsociety threads with dozens of other people wanting a good tut but nothing really solid as far as tutorials are concerned. Anything recent?

Any takers?

joie
07-23-2010, 03:13 PM
You have an in depth explanation in my blog:

http://3djoie.blogspot.com/2008/02/colaboracin-en-el-libro-art-of-3d-toons.html

SandraK
07-24-2010, 01:48 AM
Where abouts is the tutorial link? Only thing I can find is a sneak peak into Artof3dtoonsSneakPeak.pdf ebook.

Teloni
07-24-2010, 04:06 AM
http://www.3dluvr.com/rogueldr/tutorials/eye/eyes.html

SandraK
07-24-2010, 06:10 AM
yeah I found that one before. but I need a how-to not a what-it-is. a step by step tut. I'm not a texture artist.

Plus that tut contains an eye with 4 meshes.

Thanks so far, guys!

Sorry I'm being so picky.

joie
07-24-2010, 10:52 AM
Well, obvisouly you have to BUY the book since this is a kind of high end technique...

... or you can go on searching the web in order to find some valuable information, but I doubt you will in the end :)

P.S.: I only wrote the eye tutorial in that book by the way, but if you buy it, they might offer me to write another one ;)

prazilukJazz
07-24-2010, 11:27 AM
then there is
http://www.creativecrash.com/renderman/downloads/shaders/c/dl_eyeball-slim--2
a really nice Renderman shader (for Slim).

bigbossfr
07-24-2010, 04:35 PM
Edit......

egglybagelface
07-24-2010, 06:22 PM
Well, obvisouly you have to BUY the book since this is a kind of high end technique...

P.S.: I only wrote the eye tutorial in that book by the way, but if you buy it, they might offer me to write another one ;)

hummmm.... I hate plugs.

... or you can go on searching the web in order to find some valuable information, but I doubt you will in the end :)

Classic salesman technique.

You will find one.

And actually Teloni's link is the one I based mine off, and picking the best parts of multiple tutorials on the net. Just use the multiple meshes technique. Don't worry how they do it. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

There's a formula or generic standard they base all there eyes off which changes for each of their characters.

But a strong characteristic is a sharp highlight. One that typically covers a small part of the iris/pupil area. The environment map reflection is an image of high resolution not blurred like a realistic eyeball is and it is quite strong. In general, the lighting is very important and you'll probably find yourself creating lights that are specifically lighting the eyes only.

The iris in the example is the detailed end of the spectum but it can be quite flat and super basic, subtle variations of colour. The example lacks that thickish dark rim line around where the iris meets the white. Again... it differs, but the examples I found on the internet were either too cartoony or too realistic. Finding that balance is key.

A lot of times their eyes aren't perfect spheres, but flatish to create a comical flat 2d cartoon look. As a result of this, the reflection is more evident.

But ultimately, regarding eyes, there's a pretty big difference between the soulfulness found in a still image of their characters and their character's eyes in motion, and its up to the animators to give that final touch of soul.

You have an in depth explanation in my blog:

lol

joie
07-25-2010, 08:39 AM
@egglybagelface: I don't get your point. He is asking for an eyeball shader, he means, an eyeball shader, not a modelled eyeball. He wants just a sphere, only one sphere and let the shader make the rest, that's what he is searching for.

I'm not a seller, I don't get money for every book CGToolkit sells, not even one of them. That's simple, if you don't want to buy books, don't buy them. You can search the web and may find what you want, but I haven't found any tutorial on how to get a pixar-ish eyebal shader WITHOUT modelling any part of it. I f you have, please share it.

SandraK
07-31-2010, 04:58 AM
Thanks joie, a single sphere with a cool shader would be interesting to see how it done, but ultimately eggly and teloni are right as I really only want to re-create the look...

good tips, too

joie
07-31-2010, 06:37 PM
You have two ways to do that, the "modelling the eye" way, and the "texturing a sphere" way, choose the one you want and you are done.

MasonDoran
07-31-2010, 09:17 PM
Puppet Shaders has a sophisticated shader for Eyes.

joie
08-04-2010, 08:13 AM
I remember trying it a few days ago and it's great, although is only meant to be used as color texture with no bump info, am I right?.

MasonDoran
08-04-2010, 08:26 AM
If you can create a color texture, you can create a bump map ;)

joie
08-04-2010, 08:53 AM
I think I disagree..., the bump map you need to give deepness to the eyeball is totally different from the color texture I afraid..., so I guess that shader is rather incomplete in that part.

Or may be I'm wrong, who knows :)

MasonDoran
08-07-2010, 02:45 PM
*sigh*

Learn to apply the knowledge from creating a color map, and use it to create the bump map. Simply duplicate the node and tweak the relevant attributes that would get the bump you want.

joie
08-07-2010, 03:41 PM
Please don't treat me like I was a newbie please..., Do you really mean I don't know how to apply color maps as bump maps?.

I say the bump map you need for and eyeball shader is totally different from the info you can get from the color texture, and I mean, TOTALLY different.

Now could you please make an eyeball shader without modelling anything and only with ONE texture map?. Try, please, try.

Sorath
08-07-2010, 07:02 PM
well if I would have time I'd do it.

but you need at least some maps - a normal for example.
it could be some orenNayar (darker - w. normal) + sss (w. normal) + some broad spec (w. normal) + layered reflection with fresnel (where you use the inverted color b/w version maybe setranged and gammad as reflection driver or put that separat over the standard not driven refl) x with some surf lum info to make it less reflective when shadow - (maybe with condition) + non-metallic specs (extremely high and then clamped down in it's size not value - we could also put an environment trace on that one so it varies on color + some frindge since in my opinion the spec get's slightly diffracted by the cornea).

since you generate from the color map (inside the shadingnetwork - hsv node) a b/w version you can separately also drive the broadspec map and for example the sss maps - if you tint them on the flow.
Then you hook up connections between all connections with light and env. lookups to make different effects according to the incidence angle of the light. (color changing for example) going through a remap ramp and map all the colors you want to have.
quiet handy is also occ. and refl. occ (if renderpower allows) to make some obj/ camera based relation in the shader.
the right mix and you have a good alchemy. (out of my head brainstorming).

I think it could be pretty complex - the importance of shading is flexibility, easy to use/re-use and the integration so it works under every situation.
I could shade weeks on one eyeball - it'll be perfect and that's why some artists are expensive (if the perfect look is needed!)
Sure a hassle like this in a tutorial and even the advanced people would exit after the first 20 lines. Because the complexity of shading is underrated.

It's not just Ci = Oi * Cs * Kd * diffuse color * refl * spec

MasonDoran
08-07-2010, 09:30 PM
Please don't treat me like I was a newbie please..., Do you really mean I don't know how to apply color maps as bump maps?.

I say the bump map you need for and eyeball shader is totally different from the info you can get from the color texture, and I mean, TOTALLY different.

Now could you please make an eyeball shader without modelling anything and only with ONE texture map?. Try, please, try.

If you want to use a bump map, you will need a seperate texture map.

joie
08-08-2010, 06:34 AM
Learn to apply the knowledge from creating a color map, and use it to create the bump map. Simply duplicate the node and tweak the relevant attributes that would get the bump you want.

and

If you want to use a bump map, you will need a seperate texture map.

don't contradict each other?.

That's what I was saying from the very beggining.

MasonDoran
08-09-2010, 07:49 AM
sorry, but they do not contradict. duplicate node = new texture map

MasonDoran
08-09-2010, 07:57 AM
It seems the pixar eyes are not even using a bump map, and just a plain sphere:

http://i46.tinypic.com/25i1y1h.jpg



But on closer inspection, to get the lighter color in the iris, they will need a bump map.

joie
08-09-2010, 08:50 AM
Yes, the eyes are only a sphere, just that. But, to achieve that look and change in the especular direction of the iris, pupil and cornea, they must use bump maps..., in other thread a Pixar worker gave a glimpse of that technique and said they don't model anything, they just use bump maps.

MasonDoran
08-09-2010, 08:59 AM
but you still need another texture for the colored iris....which is what I have been trying to explain.

joie
08-09-2010, 10:08 AM
I think we have quite a situation here...

I say you need two textures at least to make an eyeball shader, one color texture and a bump texture..., So I guess we agree?

MasterZap
08-10-2010, 09:43 AM
Check out my blog post about MetaSL in Max where I have a rather cute MetaSL eye shader...

/Z

joie
08-10-2010, 09:46 AM
I saw it Master Zap, pretty impressive (I'll give you more feedback when it comes available for MAYA BTW).

lazzhar
08-10-2010, 01:07 PM
A good reference
http://cache-01.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/4/2010/08/500x_macroeye.jpg

SandraK
08-10-2010, 11:20 PM
Whoah!! I haven't had the time to get back here to CGSociety in a while. 950 views?
See how loved they are?

That eye reference is creepy! :) But great when I need to a model something photo-realistic (Soon! Next project!) Thanks for that.

What is the huge advantage of using a single sphere anyway?

Wouldn't a multiple-mesh setup with uncomplicated shaders vs. a single sphere setup with complex shaders's render times be around the same?

A guy at work rolled his eyes and said it could make the modeling and rigging easier...... by cutting an enormous 5 minutes off.
But he also said it would make deforming the eyes easier... making squash and stretch and lattices cleaner because they're only manipulating 1 object (per eye) instead of 3 objects (per eye).

Other than that... why the big secret, joie?

eggly made a valid point about the animators and lighters are the ones that really make them live when in motion.

joie
08-11-2010, 08:47 AM
Well, in fact, the cornea, if you model it outwards (wich you are supposed to do), it will intersect with the eyelid.

But, if your eye is only a sphere with colors and bumpmaps, you don't have such a problem anymore.

And, of course, I like to keep things simple and elegant, no more reasons.

doffer
08-11-2010, 10:49 AM
I'm not quite sure I understand how you'd do it in one mesh.
Wouldn't you both need the bulb out of the cornea and the inward of the iris?
How'd you do both "on top of each other" in one bumpmap?
Sorry if it is a stupid question, I just can't wrap my head around it

joie
08-11-2010, 11:56 AM
May be with a blend colors material or something like that. I usually do it with mix_colors nodes or so.

Hezza
08-11-2010, 12:33 PM
If pixar do it with one surface then no doubt they have someone write the shader in RSL which would allow you to do some pretty funky stuff to get the whole cornea, lens distortion thing.

If you're going to use mental ray then the two object approach is probably alot easier.

joie
08-11-2010, 03:14 PM
I do it with mental ray and is not really cumbersome..., you can mix two shaders easily.

egglybagelface
08-13-2010, 01:23 AM
Well, in fact, the cornea, if you model it outwards (wich you are supposed to do), it will intersect with the eyelid.

But, if your eye is only a sphere with colors and bumpmaps, you don't have such a problem anymore.

And, of course, I like to keep things simple and elegant, no more reasons.

If the model was a solid plastic toy, for example, you would have problems... but if its soft like a stuffed toy or a human or a squash and stretchy character, you can model the multi-mesh eye with the typical outward cornea, and apply a lattice deformer/or blendShape to the surrounding geometry (eyelid perhaps) to deform that. Set that up with a set driven key to automate it. That's the way its usually done anyways.

Alternatively, to keep it as a shader, if you have vray or a renderman renderer, it could be worth using a displacement map where neccessary (because those renderers handle displacements pretty easily and quick, it wouldn't cost too much additional rendertime) then you could get that outward cornea effect. Then apply set driven key with a corrective blendShape when the eyes begin to look up or down just like before.

All in all, Sandy, if the project is for television and contains shots of the character that has some distance from the camera, worrying about a multi-mesh eye and intersecting eyelids is a bit extreme.

Aren't you a character concept artist anyway?

joie
08-13-2010, 06:22 AM
Well, dealing with that amount of work just to have an eyeball it's rather extreme I think. If you are making Avatar, sure go for it. But the key here is to have pixar-ish eyes, and for that, you don't have to make any SDKs or sculpt deformers or blendshapes or anything..., just put a perfect sphere and you are done.

I was Character TD a few years ago, but now I think I've changed my mind to a more Rendering TD BTW.

egglybagelface
08-13-2010, 06:55 AM
Spherical Lattices attached to eyes and deforming eye lids to see some life is a very common practice even in cartoony characters. It doesn't have to be Avatar.

Funny. You were the one who brought up intersecting eye-lids and I went along. When I read your intersecting corneas point I thought the exact same thing. ... "A bit extreme to bring up.... she just wants to know about Pixar eyes and shaders, not lids."

joie
08-13-2010, 11:24 AM
That's the point here. To develope a visual style, without modelling or rigging anything.

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