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abbeytermeer
05-18-2010, 01:59 PM
http://www.abbeytermeer.com/wip/100518robert.jpg
he is looking back as he is pushing a swing door open behind him. the biggest issue is the arm, i cannot pinpoint why it doesn't look correct.

i am also looking for critique on the face, both with proportions and expression. he is to look mischievous.

PS4

Thank you for your help.

stuh505
05-18-2010, 08:48 PM
Took me a while to even figure out where that arm was SUPPOSED to be coming from, haha!

There are a number of problems with it...first the diameter of the sleeve is so large that it looks like its more in the foreground which makes it look like it's supposed to be his LEFT hand.

Second, there's just no way that the angle between his forearm and upper right arm would connect in a meaningful way. You need to change the angle of the upper forearm to be less vertical. I suggest you just take a picture of a person in this posture and use it as a reference.

urgaffel
05-18-2010, 08:58 PM
A bit of lighting will help separate the arm from the body as well.

abbeytermeer
05-19-2010, 10:39 PM
thanks for your input urgaffel and stuh505. i took a *rough* picture of a friend to get the idea and the main problem was size. i shrunk the hand, titled the angle of the arm, and pivoted the wrist a bit. does it look more believable?

as far as lighting goes, there is a lot to go into this piece. once i finally render everything I hope that will help. added a *very* quick rim light that will be refined as the process goes on and more shadows are added to the face.

http://www.abbeytermeer.com/wip/100519robert.jpg

stuh505
05-22-2010, 03:40 AM
It looks better but still not right.

I can very obviously tell that the reference you used for the hand was to hold up your own right hand while looking into the screen. And that's what it looks like -- a person's right hand, while facing forwards. You want the right hand while person is facing out of the screen.

In fact, I have tried to get into the pose you are drawing myself...and I physically can't even get into that posture. It's just not anatomically possible. If the person's chest is facing outward, then their arm has to be within the forward 180 degree arc of their torso...but in this picture, the arm is about -50 degrees outside of this range!

Airflow
05-22-2010, 12:46 PM
Either pull his shoulder back and show some of the upper arm, or take the arm out of frame.

PowderMonkey
05-22-2010, 07:10 PM
i looked at this the other day, but didn't comment.

you know how when you look a single word for too long, it just becomes weird and even though you know it's right, it just looks really strange? i think the same thing is happening here.

when i looked at your revised version the other day, i felt that it still looked a little strange, but couldn't place why.

looking at it with fresh eyes today, i think it's fine. the first version was definitely too big - it looked like someone else reaching across in front of him to push the door open, and the size and placement in the second version have absolutely addressed this.

i think the layout's good, now go for the detail =)

a great way to pick whether something funky is going on is to just take a break, go and work on something else for a while and come back with fresh eyes. so many times i've done that and nailed the issue straight away when i come back.

RiseAndShine
05-24-2010, 11:00 AM
i looked at this the other day, but didn't comment.

you know how when you look a single word for too long, it just becomes weird and even though you know it's right, it just looks really strange? i think the same thing is happening here.

when i looked at your revised version the other day, i felt that it still looked a little strange, but couldn't place why.

looking at it with fresh eyes today, i think it's fine. the first version was definitely too big - it looked like someone else reaching across in front of him to push the door open, and the size and placement in the second version have absolutely addressed this.

i think the layout's good, now go for the detail =)

a great way to pick whether something funky is going on is to just take a break, go and work on something else for a while and come back with fresh eyes. so many times i've done that and nailed the issue straight away when i come back.

Sorry, I disagree with this. I think stuh505 is right. I kinda tried to do this pose, and though, it's not impossible, I had a hard time bending my arm and hand like that. I think the arm needs to be more expanded. Right now it is to much of an "v" shape. Where it should be more of an "--" shape. Sorry can't explain it better then this.

PowderMonkey
05-24-2010, 06:39 PM
maybe i have weird elbows or something.

i didn't struggle, but i did notice that my back shoulder was pushed behind my chest and out of view when i touched the wall. this makes it look like it's someone else's arm again, and makes the pose a bit harder to read.

hmm...

RiseAndShine
05-25-2010, 10:40 AM
Haha aight, perhaps I did something wrong with my arm then. Your photo looks weird too with the arm( not because of you, just so you know ). Looks like someone elses arm indeed.

To the Topic start: Maybe you should find a movie where a shot like this is used, watch it frame by frame and see if there is a pose & camera position that makes it look good.

Airflow
05-25-2010, 11:15 AM
-I did notice that my back shoulder was pushed behind my chest and out of view-

Cough Cough...

Wiro
05-25-2010, 04:05 PM
I'm not all that great at drawing but I was thinking part of the problem is that there isn't much to connect the arm to the body. If you moved the arm a bit up you'd have less of the elbow cut off and it would at least look like the arm came out of the body. It's still not an ideal angle though as your photo shows


http://i790.photobucket.com/albums/yy188/arildwiro/robertArm.jpg

Wiro

Kanga
05-26-2010, 12:55 PM
Im with Wiro.
The composition is awkward. When that happens you should try other positions to see what works best. Illustration means you have a limited frame, that doesnt make it easy but moving stuff around will solve the problem.

Quadart
05-26-2010, 07:35 PM
The arm may look a little more embodied here:

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/9231/po4w.jpg

stuh505
05-26-2010, 08:50 PM
Thanks PowderMonkey. This confirms what I was trying to say about this being an impossible pose. In order for you to get your arm in that position, you had to move your right shoulder back. In the drawing, the shoulder is forward. Here's an overlay to show what I mean about the shoulder...

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/7589/shoulderg.jpg

And Quadart, no...that looks even more detached to me.

Quadart
05-26-2010, 09:17 PM
It is not an impossible pose. You can easily see the solution in a mirror holding that pose. The photo ref is shot from below. You would see the arm lower from that angle. The original sketch perspective is close to viewer and subject eye level. At that body angle to hand position the elbow would be forced up and back with the fingers naturally splaying as the wrist twists outward.

stuh505
05-26-2010, 09:42 PM
As I said originally, I tried and was not able to contort my arm behind my shoulder without turning my chest..not even close! If you can, post a picture.

Quadart
05-26-2010, 10:51 PM
Stu, there’s no stressful, shoulder dislocating, contortionist’s feat required. I think you’re misperceiving things here. It’s a guy standing at an angle to a viewer, presumably pushing a door open with his right hand, which is a little behind the imaginary Coronal Plane that slices through his shoulders and is perpendicular to the ground plane. I’m sure you’ve not only seen this position countless numbers of times but were in it yourself, countless numbers of times. I guess you could call it the opening-the-door-for-someone pose.

stuh505
05-27-2010, 12:34 AM
Stu, there’s no stressful, shoulder dislocating, contortionist’s feat required. I think you’re misperceiving things here. It’s a guy standing at an angle to a viewer, presumably pushing a door open with his right hand, which is a little behind the imaginary Coronal Plane that slices through his shoulders and is perpendicular to the ground plane. I’m sure you’ve not only seen this position countless numbers of times but were in it yourself, countless numbers of times. I guess you could call it the opening-the-door-for-someone pose.

I'm sorry to be so belligerent on this point but I am very certain that you are mistaken.

Yes, you can be closing a door while turning away...but no, you cannot do it while keeping your right shoulder forward like this. If you look at PowderMonkey's attempt, he was not able to make his right shoulder visible. If you look at Wiro's edit, it looks suddenly much more realistic...what did he do? He erased the right shoulder. This is because it is anatomically impossible to be in the original pose.

That's 4 sources of evidence confirming my point:
1) The original picture looks odd and disconnected
2) I was not able to get into this position with my own body
3) PowderMonkey's photo also did not make shoulder visible
4) Wiro's edit was to erase shoulder as well

Quadart
05-27-2010, 03:27 AM
Stu, you obviously need to crack the anatomy books open.
I think the disconnect here is you are focusing too much on the shoulder. Don’t. The figure in the original sketch has no right shoulder to begin with! You really don’t think his shoulder would be down there in that pointed pocket of cloth at that perspective, do you? Follow the suggestion of the clavicle in the original. If you knew your anatomy you’d realize that there are a few more things to adjust than just the hand issue, which contribute to the hand issue. I am not trying to fix the overall sketch. That shoulder area is a separate topic altogether and no you won't see a lot of it, but you will see it at that angle.

As far as your proofs are concerned:

1-The original picture looks odd and disconnected.
–Yes it does. The entire arm assembly is dropped down too far.

2-I was not able to get into this position with my own body.
––You are obviously not understanding what’s going on. It is a simple everyday position. I swear! I can do it. Anyone could do it effortlessly.

3-PowderMonkey's photo also did not make shoulder visible.
––That’s because he did not make it visible. He very well could have. --Proves nothing.

4-Wiro's edit was to erase shoulder as well.
––Wiro's fix looks much more plausible than the original. I’ll bet he erased the area because he was well aware that the original shoulder was in the wrong place and may not have wanted to reconstruct a correct one. Maybe he’ll explain.

Don’t be so hasty with validating facts without scrutinizing them thoroughly.

I put in a few lines to suggest a shoulder in a more appropriate place. Still wonky, but not impossible.

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/9231/po4w.jpg

PowderMonkey
05-27-2010, 10:59 AM
3-PowderMonkey's photo also did not make shoulder visible.
––That’s because he did not make it visible. He very well could have. --Proves nothing.


i'm not going to speak for anyone else but me.
when i stood like that, my arm and hand against the wall physically pushed my shoulder backwards, and out of view behind my torso. it was not possible to show even part of my shoulder with none of my forearm in view, with my lower arm and wrist at that angle.

the angle that you have repainted, quadart, is much better, because it communicates to the viewer much more clearly what robert's physical motion is (pushing open a door), as well as being a more natural pose. once the photo was taken, this new angle that you have pictured was the one that my arm naturally reverted to. my elbow went up, my arm rotated back behind me a little.

i think it is a more powerful pose because it more clearly communicates what's going on, not because of how achievable the pose is, although both are important.

but i think the hand is still too big.
i was surprised at how small my arm and hand looked in that pose.

Airflow
05-27-2010, 11:10 AM
As said before, the Shoulder needs to be way back for this to be possible. Its something pretty well known when it comes to anatomy. That the convo has gone this far is worrying.
His arm is basically dislocated and not attached to the body. If you drew it using skeletal lines you would have far less problems as you could only get it to work by bringing the shoulder back, or rotating the arm to a horizontal position.

Quadart
05-27-2010, 11:59 AM
http://visualfunhouse.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/head-less-ice-figure-skater.jpg

You can do a lot with camera positions and focal lengths.


PowderMonkey–your shot is nowhere near the viewing angle depicted in the sketch. Your camera is down low, peering up at you, and the viewing angle of the lens is wide (look at how huge your left shoulder is compared to your head and how small your right hand is.
You have to start by matching your camera specs with your reference—at the least the view angle to get the perspective right.

Pose tutorial:
1) Stand at a 90° to a mirror so you can only see your side.
2) Hold your hand up at shoulder height, palm facing a wall (real or imagined) parallel with the mirror. Distance your hand about a foot from your shoulder and so you can only see part of your thumb or part of the hand in the mirror.
3) Now rotate your arm (along axis through the shoulders) so your forearm makes a about 45° to the vertical.
4) Lastly, turn your whole body, hand and all, about 30° toward the mirror.

*Don’t tell me that you can’t see both shoulders as well as the arm (minus elbow), even with some minor adjustments.

Aiflow–The failure to recognize something as simple as this position is mind boggling and amusing. As I mentioned before, I can hold this position with ease, no dislocation--ANYONE CAN, WITH BOTH SHOULDERS IN VIEW!

I think some of you folks have some issues with foreshortening and basic anatomical visualization.

Airflow
05-27-2010, 01:21 PM
The only way to hold this position is to move your shoulder back, otherwise its impossible. The Forearm is too short to allow the position in the initial image.

Quadart
05-27-2010, 01:55 PM
Robert, the position of the initial image, by which I assume you mean the original sketch posted by Abbey, is not the intended target position but the one she wants corrected.
--------

Abbey–Sorry for the insanity. I hope you can glean something useful from all of this banter.
I hope you finish this and post your results.

Kanga
05-27-2010, 02:20 PM
Lot of good advice here.
Looks to me like the above sketch is much improved on the first one. The initial drawing looked like the hand was from someone else.

Airflow
05-27-2010, 03:10 PM
I'm clear what was submitted and what was painted over.
I still feel regardless of contortions one can achieve, the initial picture looks wrong, and is unnatural. It would be better to either show the elbow up higher as opposed to twisting the arm, or pulling back the far shoulder or revealing the upper arm.
Anything else looks and feels wrong.

stuh505
05-27-2010, 03:32 PM
Quadart, please don't speak to me that way. We are all artists here.

From a top-view, the reason the arm looks disconnected is because the angle between the arm and the coronal plane (aka shoulders) is impossible.

(left: impossible) (right: possible)
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/3142/impossible.jpg http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/6954/desc2i.jpg

I tried also posing in this position myself to see how close I could get to the original pose. These were comfortable poses:

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/2846/pic1gu.jpg
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/8273/pic2us.jpg

I think Kanga gave the best advice when he said this is simply not a good posture/camera angle. Even in the real photos my arm looks disconnected.

And in the last one, I held me right shoulder forward and then tried to force my arm back as far as it could possibly go in my socket without popping out. This is definitely outside the comfortable range of motion of my arm,

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/4558/pic3n.jpg

Quadart
05-27-2010, 04:42 PM
Hey Stu, sorry if I offended you, and thanks for posting the additional photos.
Yes, the left diagram is impossible for me too. I can go only as far as the right diagram. The hand/arm does not have to go back there. It can remain in front of the plane, as I describe in the tute, to create the pose.

Ultimately, I agree that an alternate pose showing more of the arm and it’s attachment would make things easier to handle, but one may not always have that opportunity. This situation is a good exercise to indulge in even with alternative compositions available. As an illustrator, one should be able to handle any visual problem that comes their way as effectively as possible and not run from it (within reason). I personally do not find that arm situation as being one I’d worry about in an illustration. I’d run with it and make it work. Now making a figure composed like the headless-gymnast (above) work in an illo, that looks natural, pleasing and plausible to the eye, would be more of a challenge.

The other thing to consider here is this image is a stylized work and is not a realist figurative work, where things like joint limits would be viewed more critically, as they have been in this thread.

PowderMonkey
05-27-2010, 04:59 PM
The other thing to consider here is this image is a stylized work and is not a realist figurative work, where things like joint limits would be viewed more critically, as they have been in this thread.

*disclaimer* completely off topic nonsense follows.

let's be honest. we're talking about vampires. maybe vampires can bend their elbows backwards. i don't know any myself, so i haven't had a chance to ask.

and i'd avoid arguing with stu, it would appear that he knows kung fu.

hugs?

Quadart
05-27-2010, 05:11 PM
i'd avoid arguing with stu, it would appear that he knows kung fu.


Point taken.

Although, I do have a black belt

…that reverses to brown. The buckle is so so.

stuh505
05-29-2010, 09:32 PM
Point taken.

Although, I do have a black belt

…that reverses to brown. The buckle is so so.

Kung fu hug!

abbeytermeer
05-31-2010, 05:39 PM
goodness! thank you, everyone, so so much for all of your input! your reference pictures, descriptions, form layouts, and advice.

I cannot thank you enough. after reading all of your comments i brought back the shoulder and used the warp tool a couple of times to actually rotate the core of the body. another problem i found after doing this, was the angle of the background. (while so simple) the background implied more of a face on direction... which was my original intention, but it seems it makes more sense to actually follow it down into the alleyway. so i added some perspective lines to help out which extended the actual picture to a more square like composition.

anatomically the hand is a little off, because i used the warp tool again to semi-rotate it. In the actual painting process these errors will be corrected.

but, here is the updated picture.

http://www.abbeytermeer.com/wip/100531robert.jpg

abbeytermeer
05-31-2010, 05:54 PM
... and completely off topic, i love how kung fu was the resolution.

<3

stuh505
05-31-2010, 07:45 PM
I think the new camera angle is better. But, the arm angle is still very screwed up. Now it looks like the arm belongs to the camera man who is reaching in front of the subject to close the door while taking his picture.

I can't even imagine how that arm is meant to attach at this point. Forget about the crop for a moment and just try sketching the entire body and both arms. I think you are good enough at anatomy that you'll correct the error when you actually draw the arms instead of just assuming they will connect somewhere off screen...

abbeytermeer
06-14-2010, 12:50 AM
im posting this before i get into detail.

http://www.abbeytermeer.com/wip/100613robert.jpg

abbeytermeer
11-17-2010, 06:42 PM
Final
http://features.cgsociety.org/newgallerycrits/g15/282015/282015_1286585785_submedium.jpg

Thanks for everyone's help. I really appreciate everyone's feedback.

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