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cherrypig
05-06-2010, 07:14 PM
it's my personal project. Begin the ideas to today it was last almost one years,but it's still have some problem.the mr render engine cant creat layered displacement like prman.so I decide displacement+bump map to make "facemasker" face.it was the last render test.in this day.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4053/4584275243_e76e386aa9_o.jpg


it's previously concept

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4017/4584861242_ac2cb89a63_b.jpg

i want to add some Chinese Opera facial makeup style..But it's make me crazy in this design. Finaly i make them together...I am not satisfied. But i have to finish it.

plz cc,and thank you for your advice.

Phonos
05-06-2010, 08:07 PM
So the few things I have:

1. The lighting on the teeth is weird. Most likely the shadows are slightly wrong there. They should be stronger given the type and direction of the light. Might need to change the shading on the teeth slightly as well, but I'm pretty sure they only look weird to me because of the lack of stronger shadows.

2. The bump mapping, mostly the hair follicle areas, seems a little rushed.

3. This ties in somewhat with 2, but there is definitely compression and stretching in your UV mapping. It compresses around the ears and looks stretched on the shoulders.

As far as the facial paint designs go, what advice exactly are you asking for there? If you're looking for which one you should go with, it really depends on the mood you are trying to set with this. Some are going to look much more menacing than others.

mister3d
05-06-2010, 08:30 PM
The teeth look flat. The eyebrow muscles look flat. The whites of the eyes look too separate, they need an occlusion pass.

lildragon
05-07-2010, 12:15 AM
Continuing on what Phonos stated, you need to revisit the bump map, the sizes are drastically different on the forehead to the scalp, the chin pours are also large to the point of distracting.

You also desperately need either a cavity or AO pass.

The muscles around the nasolabial fold look pretty good, but the expression falls apart above that, especially in the eye area, if you cover the lower half of the face, he looks sad. Try out the expression and pay attention to what the muscles are doing around the eye.

~t

playmesumch00ns
05-07-2010, 06:53 AM
I agree with the comments on the bump map. The teeth look weird partially because of the lighting, but it also looks like you've got some coloured specular reflections going on in there too? It's hard to tell from the image you posted exactly what's going on in there.

Whatever you're using for the ambient lighting looks unshadowed and way too bright causing your image to become washed out. Please don't use an ao pass on top of it that'll just make it look muddy. Instead google for articles on real-world lighting for portrait photography and try and build a better light rig with area lights before resorting to cheats.

Also the spec on the skin looks a bit rubbery... that might be what you're going for but it looks odd to me. Find some reference for the material you're going for (is the makeup powder/water/grease-based, how thick is it etc).

In terms of the makeup design I quite like the one you've got but i'd go back to the white colour instead of the pink for the lighter bits.

cherrypig
05-07-2010, 10:52 AM
So the few things I have:

1. The lighting on the teeth is weird. Most likely the shadows are slightly wrong there. They should be stronger given the type and direction of the light. Might need to change the shading on the teeth slightly as well, but I'm pretty sure they only look weird to me because of the lack of stronger shadows.

2. The bump mapping, mostly the hair follicle areas, seems a little rushed.

3. This ties in somewhat with 2, but there is definitely compression and stretching in your UV mapping. It compresses around the ears and looks stretched on the shoulders.

As far as the facial paint designs go, what advice exactly are you asking for there? If you're looking for which one you should go with, it really depends on the mood you are trying to set with this. Some are going to look much more menacing than others.

frist,i say thank you for advice and so patien to explain your opinion.the frist images cant render correct the face paint.and I will composit it in photoshop.
and this is the early lighting test[/url]
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3325/4584239609_1549b28545_b.jpg

Maybe only way to fix this error,i modify bump in photoshop...
and thank you Phonos [url="http://forums.cgsociety.org/member.php?u=371287"] (http://forums.cgsociety.org/javascript:;)

cherrypig
05-07-2010, 11:00 AM
The teeth look flat. The eyebrow muscles look flat. The whites of the eyes look too separate, they need an occlusion pass.
ok.i will fix this ,lately update it.
thank you mister3d

cherrypig
05-07-2010, 11:21 AM
Continuing on what Phonos stated, you need to revisit the bump map, the sizes are drastically different on the forehead to the scalp, the chin pours are also large to the point of distracting.

You also desperately need either a cavity or AO pass.

The muscles around the nasolabial fold look pretty good, but the expression falls apart above that, especially in the eye area, if you cover the lower half of the face, he looks sad. Try out the expression and pay attention to what the muscles are doing around the eye.

~t


yes,i see. the black areas is diffcult to lighting.and red skin was the some things. I think i will do reflection pass to make paint area to nature.
eh,and facial expression ,i showed it to my friend ,he told me the same things.it's too hard to achieve it.I have to do more sculpt exercise.
and very thank you for you comment.
i will update it late,




sorry my poor english.;D

a-vector
05-07-2010, 11:31 AM
Beside the need for ao and cavity here are some other points to have a look at:

1) If you look at his eyes they are not focused on the same object. Cover the right half of his face and it looks like he is looking up left, cover the left half and it looks like he is looking right or straight at the camera. Make sure his eyes are tracking a single point in space.

2) I'm not sure if you're trying to achieve red skin or human skin with red make-up everywhere. In either case the red colour needs more variation as currently it seems to be the same value everywhere. This combined with the specular shader currently leaves his skin looking like plastic. Adding SSS and a specular map will help the surface to look more realistic. Also make-up generally has a lot less specularity than skin so if some areas have make-up and some don't you should be able to see the difference.

Cheers
Andrew

cherrypig
05-08-2010, 03:27 AM
frist ,I have to say thank you a-vector;playmesumch00ns;Phonos;lildragon;mister3d

yesterday, i work all night to find a good way to make a layered shader in mr.but at last I droped...mr mix color dont support ALPHA.so cant be made a good result in my mind .only way is composit in photoshop..
and i will fix bump error and light ,but expression...i know it's not wonderful.
somehow let me go to sleep frist..;B

test render .refl pass composit in photoshop.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4071/4587628903_d34771a997_o.jpg

playmesumch00ns
05-08-2010, 09:40 AM
test render .refl pass composit in photoshop.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4071/4587628903_d34771a997_o.jpg

Hmmm not really sure what you're trying to achieve there to be honest. Whatever you're reflecting doesn't make any sense whatsoever with the background or the rest of the lighting.

imo your early lighting tests were MUCH better in terms of key/fill ratio. See how in those images you can easily read the form of the model, compared to the rather flat appearance you have now? Still though the angles of your lights could be improved some... I'd be inclined to move the blue key more to the left at a 3/4 angle and switch the yellow kicker round to the right to pick out the form of that side.

Kanga
05-08-2010, 01:42 PM
I think you are trying to make the model attractive with the texture and the displacement. I would post unposed versions of the sculpt so you can get some direction on the base,... it looks a wee bit unfinished to me.

cherrypig
05-08-2010, 06:31 PM
Hmmm not really sure what you're trying to achieve there to be honest. Whatever you're reflecting doesn't make any sense whatsoever with the background or the rest of the lighting.

imo your early lighting tests were MUCH better in terms of key/fill ratio. See how in those images you can easily read the form of the model, compared to the rather flat appearance you have now? Still though the angles of your lights could be improved some... I'd be inclined to move the blue key more to the left at a 3/4 angle and switch the yellow kicker round to the right to pick out the form of that side.

and thank you ,i will modify this in next test render...soon will be update..but to tell the truth the red skin is diffcult to lighting...;C

cherrypig
05-08-2010, 06:32 PM
I think you are trying to make the model attractive with the texture and the displacement. I would post unposed versions of the sculpt so you can get some direction on the base,... it looks a wee bit unfinished to me.
I really appreciate..cant wait you unpose model.;D

and thank you for your advice ;B

cherrypig
05-08-2010, 07:02 PM
Hmmm not really sure what you're trying to achieve there to be honest. Whatever you're reflecting doesn't make any sense whatsoever with the background or the rest of the lighting.

imo your early lighting tests were MUCH better in terms of key/fill ratio. See how in those images you can easily read the form of the model, compared to the rather flat appearance you have now? Still though the angles of your lights could be improved some... I'd be inclined to move the blue key more to the left at a 3/4 angle and switch the yellow kicker round to the right to pick out the form of that side.

i wont change any light intensity.when i add sss shader ,then the render result was changed..so it make me so crazy..

mirrored
05-08-2010, 10:54 PM
Hi again Cherrypig, here a couple of thoughts.

- The model looks good to me, if you can you can refine the overall rhythms a little bit, but that is up to you.

- The paint only reflection, not a good idea, if a surface is moist the reflection must be over the entire object, in fact the reflections needs to be negative to what you have (red skin more reflective than the painted areas).

- If 0 is pure matte and 100% is a chrome ball, when you have a really wet skin even oily skin the reflection is not more than 30% tops, and very diffuse not mirror like sharp.

- The shadows on the teeth looks weird because is too much spread, normally you don`t get much cast shadows in this area when the mouth is open, nothing more than the ambient oclussion caused for the surfaces next to this area.

- With that said, i think you will make your render pop nicely if you add an ambient oclussion pass to your composite.

- In makeup effects, even when you have "one color" characters they really are not one color, actually are at least three or four different shades of the same color, but they are nicelly blended so looks one color, but actually this way make ups like Darkness from the Legend movie or Hellboy looks so good, because are multynicellyblended tones of the same color.

- Skin, eyes, gums and teeth are translucent, maybe the teeth looks weird too because thay are too much opaque, it needs to feels more organic.

- You should try to remodel the eyes, but not as a single sphere, you should model them with the iris like an inset inside the eyeball and the cornea as a secondary sphere, this is to get the lighting inside the iris bouncing right.

Well, thatīs all, i hope it helps, here a couple of refs of Darkness that may help.

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/7/24/1293114//darkness.rar

cherrypig
05-10-2010, 04:04 AM
Hi again Cherrypig, here a couple of thoughts.

- The model looks good to me, if you can you can refine the overall rhythms a little bit, but that is up to you.

- The paint only reflection, not a good idea, if a surface is moist the reflection must be over the entire object, in fact the reflections needs to be negative to what you have (red skin more reflective than the painted areas).

- If 0 is pure matte and 100% is a chrome ball, when you have a really wet skin even oily skin the reflection is not more than 30% tops, and very diffuse not mirror like sharp.

- The shadows on the teeth looks weird because is too much spread, normally you don`t get much cast shadows in this area when the mouth is open, nothing more than the ambient oclussion caused for the surfaces next to this area.

- With that said, i think you will make your render pop nicely if you add an ambient oclussion pass to your composite.

- In makeup effects, even when you have "one color" characters they really are not one color, actually are at least three or four different shades of the same color, but they are nicelly blended so looks one color, but actually this way make ups like Darkness from the Legend movie or Hellboy looks so good, because are multynicellyblended tones of the same color.

- Skin, eyes, gums and teeth are translucent, maybe the teeth looks weird too because thay are too much opaque, it needs to feels more organic.

- You should try to remodel the eyes, but not as a single sphere, you should model them with the iris like an inset inside the eyeball and the cornea as a secondary sphere, this is to get the lighting inside the iris bouncing right.

Well, thatīs all, i hope it helps, here a couple of refs of Darkness that may help.

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/7/24/1293114//darkness.rar



i was really impressed by you!and give you a big thank you.ok.today i will keeping to modify this...when I feel a bit good,will post a new update.

you feedback very deatil and image.if I got 5*,i will give you 3*...;D.
thank you ,today i have lot of thing to do,the big things is flow your list to modify this.
have a good day,mirrored!

Phonos
05-10-2010, 07:55 PM
Your reply to me regarding the bump map didn't seem to address if there was any compression/stretching in the UVs. When you add a checkered map to your model, are all the squares roughly the same size/aspect ratio? If not, I would start with fixing that before trying to "fake it" by changing it in the bump map itself.

Regarding the sss shader. If the render result changed to what your render is now without much lighting changes that means you have a lot of incorrect coefficients. The flatness look may be the back/subdermal scattering being to large but the red colored skin keeps us from seeing that. Try doing a render with a somewhat normal skin tone and that might give a better idea of what is going on there.

The problem with the expression depends on what exactly you are going for. The lower part of the face suggests you are going for a enraged type of expression. Surprisingly, is quite a bit different than an angry expression when it comes to sculpting/rigging.

I think you kind of ended up mixing the two together which ends up making it look like a scared expression.

Here are examples of the two expressions. Examine the area around the eyes and and the brows closely. Also, don't be afraid to take pictures of yourself doing the expression you want. You are your best reference model.

Anger (I love Lie to Me)
http://static.squidoo.com/resize/squidoo_images/-1/draft_lens8529101module74020881photo_1260740339microexpressions-anger.jp

Rage
http://www.sxc.hu/pic/m/a/al/ale_paiva/831837_rage_2.jpg

cherrypig
05-13-2010, 07:44 PM
Your reply to me regarding the bump map didn't seem to address if there was any compression/stretching in the UVs. When you add a checkered map to your model, are all the squares roughly the same size/aspect ratio? If not, I would start with fixing that before trying to "fake it" by changing it in the bump map itself.

Regarding the sss shader. If the render result changed to what your render is now without much lighting changes that means you have a lot of incorrect coefficients. The flatness look may be the back/subdermal scattering being to large but the red colored skin keeps us from seeing that. Try doing a render with a somewhat normal skin tone and that might give a better idea of what is going on there.

The problem with the expression depends on what exactly you are going for. The lower part of the face suggests you are going for a enraged type of expression. Surprisingly, is quite a bit different than an angry expression when it comes to sculpting/rigging.

I think you kind of ended up mixing the two together which ends up making it look like a scared expression.

Here are examples of the two expressions. Examine the area around the eyes and and the brows closely. Also, don't be afraid to take pictures of yourself doing the expression you want. You are your best reference model.

Anger (I love Lie to Me)
http://static.squidoo.com/resize/squidoo_images/-1/draft_lens8529101module74020881photo_1260740339microexpressions-anger.jp

Rage
http://www.sxc.hu/pic/m/a/al/ale_paiva/831837_rage_2.jpg



thank you again Phonos

i was so tried.this week I was doing two works in the same time."the facemasker"&"oldman" and I found the post red skin in photoshop some tips.So need do some test with this model.
when I finished this oldman,then back to this model...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3292/4604837662_c6f86a2abc_o.jpg


this time i use new shader engine to render shave andhaircut.speed&perfect

cherrypig
06-14-2010, 02:08 PM
i'm finished .thank you to all
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4046/4700055354_248ac64d19_b.jpg

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