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adamdaly
05-06-2010, 03:30 PM
Hi, i've been working on this a while and it has gone through a few variations. This particular one i'm pretty happy with so far, the only thing I think I need to address is the area around the mouth, from the nose to the corner of the mouth. I also plan on creating a lot more wrinkle detail around the eye and down the cheek. The software i'm using is 3D-Coat so there is no wireframe yet as i haven't retopoed yet.

http://www.adamdaly.net/joker_wip/front01.jpg

http://www.adamdaly.net/joker_wip/profile01.jpg

As i'm posting in this forum i'm obviously looking for some constructive feed back both on how best to progress and maybe any changes that would improve where i've got to so far.

thanks

adam

Airflow
05-06-2010, 03:43 PM
Do you have reference material your working from. Right now the head seems muddled, the brow wrinkles dont seem to go with the exaggerated smile. Grounding work, even if its "cartoonish", (is that even a word?) bears fruit. I think that there is a load of work to be done around the mouth and nose. I also think you have jumped the gun, and mixed up high detail with low sculptural gestures. It kinda like cutting a shape out of a block of wood, you start by cutting out large chunks, and work down to small details. You seem to be rushing through this and you will find it difficult to make changes because you loose detailed work.
Find some reference of wrinkles coming from a smiling face, block out a base mesh, then retopo it so you can control where the detailed areas would be. Then start sculting in you mid level details, here you get to experiment.
I hope this helps.

MightyReg
05-06-2010, 04:04 PM
Here are some things that seems a bit wrong to me:

- The shape of his skull on the side view don't seems really anatomically correct. There is a bump on the top of yours, when normally the top of the head is more flat (not completely flat tough)

- He seems to have no upper lips?

-The wrinkles on the forehead seems really large to me, maybe you should make them thinner.

-The smiles seems to go really far in the side view, but if that was done on purpose then ignore this critic.

dubge
05-06-2010, 05:09 PM
The teeth seem to far back in the mouth.The top lip should spread across the teeth/gums. If they are that far back it is hard for the lip to do that. Also makes the bottom teeth have too much space in front of them. Look at your jaw and think of how the bone would be connected to the teeth. Even though it is cartoon like it should still be grounded like airflow said. Good start.

CJ3D
05-06-2010, 05:22 PM
Awesome start! I agree that you should focus on some more of the basic features rather than hurrying to the details. The thing that strikes me the most is the Zygomatic bone (the cheek bone) seems to angle up a little too steeply. I'd straighten it out a little bit. Get some reference of skulls and really scrutinize the skeletal structure. Also I would revisit the wrinkles in the middle of his brow. Definitely look up some more reference for wrinkles and really focus on one wrinkle at a time until you get that wrinkle right and then move on to the next one. Treat each wrinkle like a separate character. I love the shape of his head! The dip in the top with the pointy ridge might be a little too extreme but its very interesting. Keep on going with it!

CJ

Tasp
05-06-2010, 05:37 PM
Your profile view needs some heavy work at the very least. It seems that you may have focused on the front view a little to much. From the front the image looks decent, but from the side it has some serious issues.

-The teeth seem to be set way far back from the lips.

-The upper lip is angled back, something I've never seen before, no matter how hard someone is smiling.

-Your wrinkles in the brow are really defined in the front view, but on the side view they appear flat. I think you also might want to define the brow ridge a little more.

-The fleshy mass that surrounds the orbit of the eye on the outside edges of them seems extremely pronounced and comes down on top of the eye in the profile view in the same way it would in an older/fatter person.

-The heavy line you've cut in the delineate the top of the eye also needs to be softened.

-The Zygomatic Arch is really far forward and extremely pronounced

adamdaly
05-07-2010, 09:29 PM
Hi i've made a few updates. Firstly i redefined the jaw to make it a more realistic shape. It now has a more acute angle between the jaw line and the verticle. I also moved the zygomatic bone down so that it nolonger is angled up. I've added a set of teeth so that the lips actually spread along something. The bump on the head is also less pronounced.

http://www.adamdaly.net/joker_wip/front02.jpg

http://www.adamdaly.net/joker_wip/profile02.jpg

I don't know whether this is a step forward or not. I liked the previous angle of the jaw even if it was unrealistic. It had a more menacing feel to it.

adam

musashidan
05-07-2010, 11:02 PM
I have to disagree anatomically (with comments above) regarding the angle of the mandible. You were correct originally. The male mandible side view angle is sloped as opposed to more horizontal (as is the masseter muscle) whereas the female skull exhibits a less inclined angle. The skull shape still looks oddly shaped in both views. The skull in front view should begin to slope out above the ears where the temporalis muscle originates. You have it sloping in. Also, as mentioned, the forehead/ brow ridge wrinkles are very erratic and appear to be randomly carved in rather than with any form of reasoning. You should certainly throw some skull front side refs into the viewport as this will help significantly. Then, once you nail the proportions you can pull things around and have some fun exaggerating.

WanderersLane
05-08-2010, 12:14 AM
I'm still learning anatomy myself, so take this crit with a grain of salt.

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv311/houseofpeppers/critjoker.jpg

I think there's two big things going on with the profile right now. It took me a while to figure out what was bothering me. The nose is posed at an odd angle. Right now, it's pointed up, with the nostrils pulled down. I'm pretty sure the only time a nose is pulled that way is when you're pulling your top lip down (like when men shave a moustache, or women apply lipliner). When you smile, the nose curves down, and the nostrils pull up. This is particularly noticeable in people who have 'beak' shaped or very angular noses, like the joker has.

I also feel that the teeth are still positioned too far back. If you bring the bottom lip and the chin forward just a little more, then you should be able to move the teeth forward without making him look like he has a major overbite. At the moment, his mouth still looks like an 'old man' mouth to me.

I can't really help you with the forehead wrinkles, but I think if you have a look at old man references you might find something. Or even pictures of Jack Nicholson as the Joker can be good, as he pulled the really extreme happy faces, but I'm pretty sure the forehead wrinkles were his own (not a hollywood makeup job, unlike his mouth), making them a good realistic reference.

I liked his jaw more angular also. I hope that helps a little!

comic-craig
05-08-2010, 07:28 AM
The most glaring issue I see is where the snear/smile line meets the nostril- the flesh should appear to stretch from this point. It looks decent from the front view, but from the side view shows most of the error. WanderersLane's drawing is a pretty good design for how the side should look- the arc or the muzzle line travels right out of the nostril is stretched and flows properly. Good luck.

Airflow
05-08-2010, 01:14 PM
I'm going to go as far as saying, making cosmetic changes wont help at this stage.
I think its more effective to go back to the base mesh and start work on that, using the advice everyone has given. Get it right the first time and you struggle less.

Kanga
05-08-2010, 01:27 PM
I'm going to go as far as saying, making cosmetic changes wont help at this stage.
I think its more effective to go back to the base mesh and start work on that, using the advice everyone has given. Get it right the first time and you struggle less.
Yes you have had some really good directions.
Airflow is correct and that will be the quickest for you. To me it looks like you jumped into the details before the base was solid. The base is the hardest, the details just kiss them.

musashidan
05-08-2010, 04:30 PM
I'm going to go as far as saying, making cosmetic changes wont help at this stage.
I think its more effective to go back to the base mesh and start work on that, using the advice everyone has given. Get it right the first time and you struggle less.

Agreed.jumping ahead to secondary/tertiary detailing is never a good idea when the overall forms are wrong. It is often easier to smooth out these details and work on the base shapes/forms before moving on. I've often brought a piece to finished render stage only to realise a glaring anatomical error in post. The old: "learn from your mistakes" adage is often the best resource. Plus, nowadays there are so many armchair anatomists around that it's hard to get away with anything! :)

anto-toni
05-09-2010, 09:36 PM
This is fine example of most common bust sculpting problems which is lack of anatomy knowledge.
Even cartoonish style or deformed faces as Joker him self must obey some anatomy and proportion rules. I suggest you to study some anatomy and try to master sculpting human scull to gain better understanding of head anatomy.
I have also tried to make Joker and you can check out result in my portfolio.
If you like it i can give you decimated version of my joker bust so you can study it.
Best regards,
Toni.

Kanga
05-09-2010, 10:27 PM
This is fine example of most common bust sculpting problems which is lack of anatomy knowledge.
Even cartoonish style or deformed faces as Joker him self must obey some anatomy and proportion rules. I suggest you to study some anatomy and try to master sculpting human scull to gain better understanding of head anatomy.
I have also tried to make Joker and you can check out result in my portfolio.
If you like it i can give you decimated version of my joker bust so you can study it.
Best regards,
Toni.That is an extremely generous offer. It doesn't get any better than this.

adamdaly
05-10-2010, 10:31 AM
Yeah man that would be sweet! To be honest i saw your joker on the 3d coat forums and that inspired me to try my own version.

adam

anto-toni
05-10-2010, 10:43 AM
Ok, give me your mail and i will send it this instance.

adamdaly
05-10-2010, 06:58 PM
big thanks to anto-toni for sharing his file. I've made drastic changes to the shape of his mouth. I think this is looking way more natural but i guess that can be better judged by you guys. I think there is much more of a flow to the edge loop around his mouth. Next stage then is to study more indepth the muscle surronding his eye.

http://www.adamdaly.net/joker_wip/front03.jpg

http://www.adamdaly.net/joker_wip/profile03.jpg

thanks

adam

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