top-level micro work, yet not in Cinema

[runejw]

A LW tutorial on a similar subject, shows that an "angle of incidence" shader is needed (combined with gradients):

http://www.cgfocus.com/ArticleDetails.cfm?ArticleID=197
http://www.cgfocus.com/ArticleDetails.cfm?ArticleID=199

(I think those look rather cool too...)

Angle of incidence is also sometimes referred to as "fake fresnel".

Not possible with SLA materials ??


Cheers,
Rune

[kiwi]

That is cool :thumbsup:


runejw I think you could do that in SLA,it would take a lot of tweaking thought ike Erik suggested :)

[ThirdEye]

Easily doable with SLA Cheen, i've already done something like that in the past...

[Per-Anders]

not at all hard to do. ever used the fresnel shader?

[flingster]

i would imagine joeld or some of the other medical background people have something similar in their toolkit or previous materials...but that particular result is very very good...and would take a great deal of tweaking i would think.

when he mentions VL is he talking about VL noise?

[bobtronic]

Originally posted by flingster
when he mentions VL is he talking about VL noise?

Do you mean VSL? That stands for Visual Shading Language.
Its Realsoft shader language. It is something like the Renderman
shaders and very powerful. I know Realsoft since the good
old AMIGA days. But I prefer Cinemas easy handling and its
speed.

Bob

[flingster]

Oooh my bad...yup.

i assumed VL noise type! DOH
:banghead:
that said it has kinda vl noise look to it....what kinda noise do you guys think is being used?

do cinema users have a shader language...or is this just sdk stuff...and no don't say sla...we need a shader tree..:shrug:

[bobtronic]

Unfortunatly there is no shader language in C4D :(
You have to write your own shader with COFFEE or
C++. But for myself I would be satisfied with a option
to layer textures in an easy way within one material.
At the moment we have only the Fusion shader.

cheers, Bob

[flingster]

in terms of updates i would like to see sla more integrated and more on the lines of thinking particles in the future...would be totally kick ass...:buttrock:

[JoelOtron]

Hey Fling--

Darf has already announced an upcoming plug that will act as an interface for TP making it more user friendly. I forget the name of the plug. Thise who purchased tJenna 2 b4 a particular date will get it for free (I missed the cutoff :shrug: )

Those are very nice examples.

And yes SLA fresnel, if used in the transparancy and luminance channels can definitely produce this effect. Make sure theres a nice SLA bump map on the object too. You don't even need a light source.

[Erik Heyninck]

I agree that I've seen the same subject matter done with other applications, including cinema. Some were really very good, but I didn't see this particular quality before. I have several books on electron microscope photography, and I'm shure the author of these works here has thoroughgly studied the subject. His shaders are great, and so are the forms he created. And he also took care of a strong composition.

It was not my intention to say that Cinema can't do this, far from that. But, my very personal opinion of course, to get a good quality level is not that difficult for a medium-trained artist, yet to obtain this degree of excellence will ask for a lot of study and experiment.

[JoelOtron]

Yes--an effect can always be achieved. But quality and excellence of course is always up to the artist.

[LucentDreams]

considering how many medical animations I've seen I wasn't even sure why this was front page material, I mean its wel done, but no different or better then half the stuff I see done in C4d for medical illustrations and animatinos. you want a material like that talk to jeff johnson he'd whip one in a second like he does each time he has to make a microscopic render.

[JoelOtron]

Yes check out Jeff Johnsons site (or the cover of practically every other Scientific American). His work makes me cry tears of joy (and jealousy). :)

EDIT---a url would help:

http://www.hybridmedicalanimation.com/

[Erik Heyninck]

I have a different opinion on this. I visited Stewartartists (Johnson) and his personall site "Hybridmedical" several times, but I don't even see a link between the him and this artist I present here, as Johnson is making medical illustration and these works are electron microscopy, which is not the same. The medical world can make use of an electron microscope, but the instrument is not limited to that domain at all. In fact: the medical world will more often use a Transmission Electron Microscope because it can probe an inner structure. The work this artist made are like the results one obtains with a Scanning Electron Microscope which scans surfaces. One of its main strong points is that it can work from enlargements of as little as 5x.

Besides: none of the images on either of Johnson's site (s) comes even close, neither in subject matter, nor in spirit. I won't say he didn't make them, but I did not find them displayed on these sites.
Yet, even if I am the only one who sees this, it will not change my opinion.

[caraffi]

JeremyW http://www.biovisioning.com/index_flash4.html

[MJV]

Originally posted by JoelD
Yes check out Jeff Johnsons site (or the cover of practically every other Scientific American). His work makes me cry tears of joy (and jealousy). :)

EDIT---a url would help:

http://www.hybridmedicalanimation.com/

Yes, Jeff Johnson is absolutely the best I've seen at medical illustration/animation, and all his work is done in Cinema. Stuff like the posted sample at the top are so old hat in Cinema. Alec Simm and Jeremy W (and countless others) have done excellent microscopic work in Cinema too.

[JoelOtron]

I see Eriks point concering SEM reproduction in 3d. Still, if you wish to create images like those seen (and yes Erik--they are beatiful renderings---I've already bookmarked the site for reference) it can be done in C4d.

I think we are only discussing this not to refute that the work/subject matter is great and is almost indistinguishable from a real EM image, but that you don't need access to those shaders in order to create this effect. Of course you need to be a good artist to create the models in the forst place, but if you are a proficient modeller with good SEM reference, then its a matter of using the SLA fresnel shaders correctly.

I will try to find some other good examples of this done in 3d---not to challenge the original post but for inspiration.

[JoelOtron]

Check out the student gallery at Univ of Toronto Dept of surgery:

http://www.surg.med.utoronto.ca/bmc/gallery.html

Nick Woolridge (a cgtalk and postforum regular) is a professor in this dept. I believe these guys use cinema 4d--though I may be incorrect.

Check out Glenn Oomen's demo reel (class of 2002). It takes a bit of time to navigate the site (go to his portfolio) and the animation takes a little while to load, but there is a little bit of the SEM style used in the HIV demo reel. Also you can see Nick's influence in some of the molecular modelling using the toon fresnel approach. He has posted on postforum the methods he uses to create the shader. May not completely resemble the SEM's of the original site posted here, but still very nice work.

[JoelOtron]

Hey guys ---me again :)

Anyway, I fiddled with a project I did last year to give the SEM approach a shot.
Not trying t say its better then what is shown but that it can be done. All I did was spend a few minutes tweaking some of the fresnel params. There are a lot of probs with the image---especially in regard to DOF which I just fired away with and didnt really spend time tweaking. We also can't assume that the RealSoft examples were created at the push of the button (unless it says somewhere that it was--then I'd be jealous). Anyway FWIW and since I'm distracted anyway...


Mr.Micro-Neuron (http://joeldubin.net/neuro-depth.jpg)

[JoelOtron]

Just call me Joel Thread Killer :buttrock:

[AdamT]

Originally posted by JoelD
Just call me Joel Thread Killer :buttrock:

heh, nah it looks good! Check out my SEM lounge chairs in another thread. :beer:

[SeanL]

Thanks for the link and the neurons image Joel. You're just using SLA fresnel in the luminance and transparency channels in that image?

I think the images in Erik's post really are especially stunning (not to detract from anyone else's work).

[lllab]

hmmm,...

also, joels image shows very directly, that this effect is possible in cinema i think the posted images are of very high quality. i also have seen a lot of medical work, but they do have something special. also they are very rich in detail, and modelled very nice.
i have to admit, although they are not done in cinema they are extraordinary to my opinion.

for me they look more like some art images.
great, admirable work, thanks for posting erik.

cheers

lllab

[flingster]

i think in order to get some perspective on this you gotta compare the original stuff with actual photos...then i'm sure joeld and some of the other specialistas on here would be able to come up with something in cinema...but its all about time and paying the bills.

anybody got any links for REAL photos we can have a lookie at?

[lllab]

to be honest i do not care, how the original look like.

i see it from an art perspective. for me they are as pictures themselves great. no matter if they are meant for medical visualisation or for pure fun.

i always like art that maybe wasnt art by the intension of the creator. if you put this picts into an art gallery, people would love it maybe.
if you see it as medical visuals, probably they are not so overwhelming, dont know.

so i think some guys will like it here some not, it just depends on the point of view.

its all somewhere between the blurred boundaries of art, graphics, film, architecture, visualisation etc.- who knows? ;-)

cheers

lllab

[JoelOtron]

Hey Guys

As IIlab mentions:

Yes those were beautiful renderings Erik posted.

All I wanted to point out was that if you wish to achieve that effect, it can definitely be done in Cinema. Good reference, good modelling and of course, artistic skills are the only other things you need. My crude attempt with the neuron was only to show this.

[JoelOtron]

Originally posted by SeanL
Thanks for the link and the neurons image Joel. You're just using SLA fresnel in the luminance and transparency channels in that image?

I think the images in Erik's post really are especially stunning (not to detract from anyone else's work).



Hey Sean

yes---Fresnel in the luminance, reversed fresnel in the transparency (with a bit of refraction and not completely transparent in the middle---so it blends to gray not white in the interface) and a nice SLA 3d noise shader in the bump. Color is turned off. No lights.

[SeanL]

That works pretty well.

Haven't tried it yet, but it looks like maybe with some changes here it can be used also for a good 'x-ray' effect.:)

[JIII]

yea my ultra pimpin avatar was once an X-ray effect.

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