CGTalk - Are Maya's modeling tools really crap?

MysteryMan

09-10-2003, 01:35 AM

Maya's modeling tools are poor and lacking overall. That doesn't mean you can't get the job done, though. There are a bunch of scripts that help, as well as some promising plugins in development. Also, standalone modelers like Wings 3D are a popular, free alternatives.

I'm hoping (as I think may others are) Alias wakes up and finally improves/ fixes the lacking modeling toolset. It's about time they do.

Anyway, if Maya works for you then use it.

Virum

09-10-2003, 01:39 AM

Well i'm asking because I'm only 15 and I'm getting ready to dump 1000 dollars into it. I need to know if I shoudl get this now. Are there any modeling tools improvments scheduled for Maya 5.5 or 6.0?

wgreenlee1

09-10-2003, 01:40 AM

I think there is enough for most...
Mainly I think its the work flow that makes everyone think its dodgie....

Virum

09-10-2003, 01:53 AM

Originally posted by wgreenlee1
I think there is enough for most...
Mainly I think its the work flow that makes everyone think its dodgie....

What's so dogy about the workflow?

Kabab

09-10-2003, 02:05 AM

Actually i beg to differ i think overall they are good you guys are just foucsing on the poly part to much how about NURBS.

There are enough scripts etc to cover any short commings i belive with the polygon modeling.

I think the workflow is fantastic with marking menu's and the like.

JDex

09-10-2003, 02:08 AM

Save your $1000 and use wings3d for a while. Then try out all the other apps demo/ple versions. Then buy the Academic version of the app that best is suited to you.

Virum

09-10-2003, 02:27 AM

Originally posted by JDex
Save your $1000 and use wings3d for a while. Then try out all the other apps demo/ple versions. Then buy the Academic version of the app that best is suited to you.

Well I would but I don't have neough time to download all the demos. I have Maya 4 and I love it, I odn't know what's wrong with the modeling.

Can people say exactly what they don't like?

JDex

09-10-2003, 02:32 AM

No what I am saying is learn to model with the free, excellent poly modeller called Wings 3d and over the next few months send for the CD versions of the demos and then make an educated decision as to what you will spend your hard earned money on. But if you just want to blow that kind of money without trying out your options first hand... than by all means.

wgreenlee1

09-10-2003, 02:43 AM

If I didnt have Maya already I would look into Wings3D.
I shouldve learned it long ago but I had Lightwave and its a very capable app.

JDex

09-10-2003, 02:50 AM

I have XSI and I use wings constantly... it is the best tool for what it does... don't use a screw driver to hammer a nail... know what I mean.

Virum

09-10-2003, 03:14 AM

Originally posted by JDex
No what I am saying is learn to model with the free, excellent poly modeller called Wings 3d and over the next few months send for the CD versions of the demos and then make an educated decision as to what you will spend your hard earned money on. But if you just want to blow that kind of money without trying out your options first hand... than by all means.

No need for sarcasm, but I also want to be an animator. So you see, Wings 3D won't cut that, and neither will Lightwave. I've tried Max and hated it. So I guess that leave XSI?

trthing

09-10-2003, 03:34 AM

I think it is sort of "strong" to state that Maya modeling tools are "poor and lacking overall", MisteryMan, IMHO.

I come from Max background and agree that here and there, when it comes to polygon modeling, you might face some shortcomings (like the broke bevel tool). But nothing that will leave you with a dead end or a much less efficient workflow. On the contrary...

DeathBrain

09-10-2003, 05:00 AM

Originally posted by Virum
I've read lots of things where people say Maya's polygon modeling tools (among other things) are pretty poor:

Not for me :)

wilson81

09-10-2003, 05:36 AM

if you like maya and it works for you then use it. im a reletive noob at maya, but i really like the way it works. i dont have any problems with the poly tools (use a few scripts for things like edgeloops) and then theres byrons poly tools coming out soon which i believe will bring mayas poly tools on par with others.

but again. if you like it by all means use it. dont let what others think turn you off of a program you havent found fault in :)

but i would also say give wings a spin if you use polys mostly. heard some good things about it and i also heard (some one catch me if im wrong) that its pretty easy to get a wings model into maya

Gremlin

09-10-2003, 06:03 AM

I dont get how people can say they think maya's modeling tools arent good, I think they are awesome, I like them better than lots of other apps, because its well rounded, and I can easily use NURBS for something if poly doesnt quite cut it, but with 3rd party plugins (MJPolyTools, Byron's PolyTools, etc...) poly modeling is equal if not better.

Im 16 (almost 17, weee!) and maya has been workin' great for me... i say go for it. :surprised
Cheers,
:beer:

kmp3d

09-10-2003, 06:30 AM

I love maya, I've been using it for a while. Out of the box its poly tools are a bit lacking. But there are scripts that can significantly change that. MJ poly tools are must have, as well as CPS (sorry I still like CPS better than maya's smooth proxy). I certainly think with people writing some great tools (APEL, BPT) maya's poly tools will be taken to a higher level. Ageed.... its seems kinda silly that Alias hasn't just bit the bullet and revamped the poly tools for a more modern workflow (wings3d.....hint hint). I have no real point of comparison as nurbs go but my understanding is that nurbs is one of maya's strongest points. As far as workflow I see nothing dodgy about it. I guess I'm past the major part of the learning curve so it doesn't seem dodgy to me. I agree with JDex you should try free alternatives (wings3d) at the moment. You say you have maya 4.0, whats the hurry to upgrade? Try out wings3d, try out the new maya ple, and xsi exp. When I was 15 a 1000 dollars was a lot of money (hell its still a lot of money :) )
Take the time to educate yourself, remember its not the app its the artist.

wilson81

09-10-2003, 07:44 AM

i have come to believe that most people that complain about the workflow are coming from other packages and are expecting things to be like *insert prev package here*

i cant think that anyone that has used maya as there original package would complain about the workflow, it just wouldnt make much sense....

Neox

09-10-2003, 08:35 AM

@gremlin but the polymodellingtools in maya _are_ poor compared to meshtools in max and the sculptingtools in lightwave or xsi, maya has always been really strong in nurbs but the forgot about polymodelling, the easiest way to get a model done (in my oppinion)...
but well i've ssen BPT and those tools are great they'll speed up your mayaworkflow, you'll recognize whats crap on mayas polymodelling when working with BPT ;)

GrafOrlok

09-10-2003, 08:35 AM

I am totally comfortable with the workflow in Maya. I worked for a game company some time ago that only used MAX and they all complained over the lack of control and the awkward workflow on polygon modeling. I don't know, I never got into it but all the routines with "collapsable mesh", "surface modifiers" and what not does not appeal to me. I hear people praising MAX polygon tools here at CGtalk, but I just feel it's not for me.

Actually my first encounters in 3d was with MAX, but the only thing I found fairly easy to use was patch modeling. Loved these beziers!

I think Maya is straight forward and easy to control. I do mostly organic modeling and I don't feel that Maya is limiting me in any way. And with the open interface there are a lot of interesting scripts that adds further possibilities. I use MJpolytools "edge loop split" and "Select loop" a lot. Also finds BPT's soft selection (in another thread) VERY exciting!

My 2¢

Neox

09-10-2003, 08:42 AM

have you ever tried wings, meshtools in max or any other polymodelling tools in other packages? they are fast as hell compared to MJ Polytools (yes they are great but slooooow)... thats the problem with maya polytools, take a complex mesh und use MJ polytools, it takes a while till something happens, try the same thing in wings or max, you hit the button and its there, thats why the maya polytools are currently not as good as in other packages :)

GrafOrlok

09-10-2003, 09:06 AM

I don't get it:rolleyes:, what is slow. Or should I say how slow?
I pick an edge, hit "edge loop split" and there it is...

I'm sure there are "better" packages for modeling but as I say, I feel very comfortable with Maya.
:cool:

Neox

09-10-2003, 09:15 AM

ok let me try to explain, have you seen every video done by byron to show the power of BPT? he compared the MJ Polytoolssplit with his smartsplit, he took a sphere with 200x200 intersections (right word??) grabbed an edgering and splitted it.. it took a whil till the operation was finished, the he made the same thing with his split, he pushed the split button and the edge was there, no time t wait, it was there right in time... that is the difference, try it on your own with mjpolytools, they _are_ slow compared to other packages ;)

:edit: i feel comfortable with max too, i like modelling with it and i'm lucky that i'm getting payed for modelling, because animating/rigging/skinnig is just painfull in max...

MasonDoran

09-10-2003, 10:28 AM

The worst thing about the Maya poly modeller is its bevel tool, and edge loops tools are not yet fully integrated. Other then those...it has everything that LW or XSI or MAX or WINGS have.

the advantage Maya has over most of the other appz including wings is that you can customize to ANY degree that you want for your prefered work flow.

What i mean is, that Maya, when i first started using it...was very slow and clumsy as a poly modeller....but once i started using Wings and got to know what a fast workflow for poly modelling SHOULD be....i immedietly customized Maya to have nearly the exact same work flow by using marking menus, hotkeys, multiple marking menus on one hotkey, context sensitive marking menus, and various scripts like MjPolytools and even Tweak for Maya.

I even have a hotkey to minimize the entire interface so all i get is the viewport.

Wings is great for character modelling...but once you want to rig it and texture it -you will need another app.

Maya can be a good modeller, once you know HOW to model in maya....that way you can customize it so that it works the way you want to.

atzfratz

09-10-2003, 10:52 AM

Like other maya user here, i really dont understand whats the problem with mayas poly tools. ok, bevel is shit but everything else just works fine. I mean what do you need beside extrude, split poly, cut and smooth. Im using cps and now i am really happy with everything beside bevel, but i dont use bevel that frequent so im absolutly fine with that. Just wanted to add that i started out with max till version 3 and that was a really awful workflow compared to maya. The History sucked, and everything beside modelling was a pain in the ass. Another thing users of other apps are complaining about are subds. So just stick with your polysmooth workflow and keep hitting tab while we have our hierarchical subds. Its just completly diffrent and far stronger in my opinion. Poly mode is horrible slow but once you are working in subd mode there are not much reasons to go back. The weakest thing about maya right now is its mental ray feature, everything beside polygons just dont render stable and right. just my 2 cents

bleep

09-10-2003, 11:59 AM

Are Maya's modeling tools really crap?

yes. Someone at alias must be sleeping in the R&D departement...

Peter Reynolds

09-10-2003, 02:23 PM

I've been using maya since version 1, and while I wouldn't go so far as to say the poly tools are "crap", I do think they are not as good as they should be.

When version 1 came out, Aliaswavefront were pushing NURBS as the answer to everything. So I think the poly toolset has not been given the attention it deserves.

I find wings 3D is faster and more FUN to model with. But its easy to learn, you can use it with a maya camera mode and obj files go back and forth from maya to wings and wings to maya very easily.

When I purchased maya, the main reason was for its animation tools, which I still think are one of its strongest points.

XSI is looking good too.

Virum

09-10-2003, 03:45 PM

Originally posted by kmp3d
I love maya, I've been using it for a while. Out of the box its poly tools are a bit lacking. But there are scripts that can significantly change that. MJ poly tools are must have, as well as CPS (sorry I still like CPS better than maya's smooth proxy). I certainly think with people writing some great tools (APEL, BPT) maya's poly tools will be taken to a higher level. Ageed.... its seems kinda silly that Alias hasn't just bit the bullet and revamped the poly tools for a more modern workflow (wings3d.....hint hint). I have no real point of comparison as nurbs go but my understanding is that nurbs is one of maya's strongest points. As far as workflow I see nothing dodgy about it. I guess I'm past the major part of the learning curve so it doesn't seem dodgy to me. I agree with JDex you should try free alternatives (wings3d) at the moment. You say you have maya 4.0, whats the hurry to upgrade? Try out wings3d, try out the new maya ple, and xsi exp. When I was 15 a 1000 dollars was a lot of money (hell its still a lot of money :) )
Take the time to educate yourself, remember its not the app its the artist.

Well, I did try out Maya 4.5 PLE before I was given Maya 4. some of things are missing in Maya 4 that I really liked in Maya 4.5 (like using MML button for zoom instead of pressing the right and middle buttons, being able to switch to object mode by right clicking on the object, dragging and selecting object mode) Little things like that.....plus I really want fluids. Do you think its not worth upgrading yet? I am doing some work already with it (I have a contract for a special fx seen in a small movie).

Plus I REALLY want Mental Ray.

Thanks for all the feedback.

TheWraith

09-10-2003, 03:54 PM

it's not that maya's poly tools are crap. you can still make anything you imagine with them. it's just that other apps have better poly tools and maya's are beginning to look more and more dated. the only thing maya has going for it's poly tools is the users making free plugins for improving them. while max, xsi and wings all took a page out of mirai's book, alias has just sat around trying to come up with new "innovative" features that it can put in maya unlimited so they can move older maya unlimited (subD's) features down to maya complete where they really belong. subD's should never have been a maya unlimited only feature. but i'm off on a tangent now. maya's workflow is in my opinion, the best. even better than xsi and wings. however, because of the lack of some of the poly tools that are in other programs such as xsi, wings and max, you can do complex polygonal modeling faster in those programs. so not even maya's outstanding workflow can save it from it's lack of poly tools and operations.

Sammy

09-10-2003, 07:12 PM

So the biggest beef I've got is the Bevel tool.

If *I* was a programmer at Alias (that new logo sucks rocks btw) I'd spend a couple weekends and help the maya community out by fixing it. Heck, there are more BUGS in it's programming than actual functioning code!

But alas, I'm not - I'm just an enduser through my school so perhaps someone with those qualifications will read this.

They probably won't though, they just don't listen.

By this threads accounts there are some areas where Alias hasn't really kept up with the rest of the apps insofar as how to handle the edges of polys - how to add and edit more than just Select Contiguous.

I also hear that thanks to the maya community, programmers have integrated many such features by kind donation. The thing I don't understand is why there isn't a service such as Digidesign for Maya ? Perhaps cuz there isn't enough commercial highend plugs in development for maya ?

Where does Alias get off assuming we've all got a room full of programming genius down the hall ?

I suspect that the power that be at Alias have haven't used an off the shelf version of Maya - it's a little lackluster in areas that shouldn't be. Maya's primary design being what it is ... these are what I'd guess are "easy fixes".

Maya 5 ? Big deal ...

Does Alias have a conscience ?
What's the board of Trustees doin' all day ?
Just who's in charge over there - gee whiz!

Long live Maya,

_Sammy_
rhibit@lilypad.ca
-+-

Neox

09-10-2003, 07:48 PM

@sammy BPT has a working chamfer in it, and the best solid chamfer i ever saw, can't wait to get these tools to max :D

SaucyJack

09-10-2003, 07:50 PM

I might winge about the Bevel tool when the mood takes me but i would never describe the poly tools as "Crap". Maybe lacking in some areas but certainly not crap.

Im not a Lightwave user so i can't comment but Max and Maya are very alike in terms of poly modeling. I won't go over the pluses and minuses of each toolset as its already been discussed to death on this forum and others.

Horses for courses

:)