Life Changing Decision...need insight please!

[ragdoll]

if someone told you to go a head and take the plunge and add more to your debt would you still do it? knowing that there's no guarantee of landing a job after you finish school? the only difference between the cg/art industry and any other industry is that the companies you'll be applying for would hire you for your work and not for your diploma. this could be to your advantage given your current situation.

my advice would be to first take care of your debt. keep your job. at this point, having income is better than none...spending money you don't have and adding to your debt isn't a wise decision no matter how you try to justify it...the fact that your parents are helping you out with your kid is a huge deal on its own. like i mentioned before, a diploma isn't what cg companies hire you for. they hire you for the quality of your work/demo reel. so do cg on the side, after work or on your free time. lots of affordable training dvds, just save up for a decent computer setup and work away. reality isn't so much about doing what you want to, but doing what you have to. make smart decisions and good luck!

[Kanga]

All opinions from the web should be taken with a grain of salt.

CG education in general isnt ready for the financial commitment asked quality wise. Get a part time job so you can stay at home with your kid and do workshops and tutorials in you own time. They grow up too fast and those little gifts from heaven should be enjoyed while they can. A folio will get you a job.

[Mekhit]

That was my other thought, to be honest. I really don't want to go, I just figured it would teach me what I need to know and to make those networking connections. On the other hand, I have my little brother who's about to graduate from SCAD and hopefully start working for Pixar. That would be a great connection right there. It's such a hard decision.

[Almaghest]

Edited: Nevermind, if you have a brother at SCAD you've heard most of what I have to say.

As an aside, does "hopefully" mean he was an intern and hopes to be offered a full time position or does hopefully mean he is one of the delusional many (no offense) that for some reason believe there is a job at Pixar waiting for them? I find this thought pattern disturbingly common in VSFX undergraduates who somehow think even though their work is not of feature film caliber that they are going to be able to compete for jobs with industry veterans, which is why I ask.

[dnashj33]

What the most pragmatic thing you could do, at this stage, is to give yourself a 6month test period. Make it your mission to have as much quality material for your demo reel as possible...just as if you were in a production environment, and you're trying to squeeze as much as you can in a short span of time.

Make a plan...you'll find you won't get too far without one. Decide exactly what job in 3D production you'd enjoy most, and let that be the focus for this 6 month period. If it's modeling, find the best DVD/online training content for the task and type of content you're interested in doing. After you've gone through that training material, modify it sufficiently so that it's not so easily apparent that it's content from a tutorial. Then, perhaps take what you learned and model a few other different one's on your own. You could also follow along in the tutorial, and instead of modeling exactly what they do, make it something of your own choosing and try to adapt to what is being taught.

Being proficient in a number of areas might be great if you were planning on being a generalist, but it takes you the long way around the block, as opposed to focusing on being a specialist. If you really dig sculpting in ZBrush, just get after it and sculpt the hell out of some models in that 6month period. Your chances of getting hired on thereafter are far better than trying to master everything...which you won't do anyway...not in that time frame.

What this period will do is reveal the level of dedication you have as well as your ability to focus on the task at hand; and it can help you develop some good habits. Let it be a 6 month sabatical from entertainment...abstain from any TV or internet browsing during the week, except perhaps 30 min before bedtime. Reward yourself a little on the weekends if you've been meeting your goals during the week.

If after this 6 month period, you haven't gotten much done, then you may find that you need the externally imposed discipline that school provides (in some measure anyway). You have the luxury though, of being interested in a field that offers a wealth of training material outside the college environment. If you are taking classes at a Community College, you could try to do an Internship, thereafter, at a studio close by...even a local news station, if necessary. That should give you additional material for your demo reel and perhaps a foot in the door...at least a networking opportunity and reference for your resume.

[Rebeccak]

SCAD has a reputation as a school that routinely offers half tuition scholarships (they offered me one years and years ago out of high school) and they have done so for many others.

I'd polish, polish, polish your portfolio on the cheap at the cc level and keep talking to reps at National Portfolio Day (http://www.portfolioday.net/) until they deem you good enough to offer you scholarship money. Even if it took several years to do, the main thing is that receiving scholarship money would make a huge difference in your financial outlook long term. Especially since you already have a large debt, I think you have to carefully weigh taking on any more, with a daughter. Don't pass on to her the lesson that taking on great debt is the solution to a problem.

Also I'd be realistic and honest with yourself about your skill level - if you are not able to receive scholarship money, you will have to evaluate how competitive your skills will be in a very tight market.

I would never discourage someone from 'pursuing their dreams', but that catchphrase is an overused term used by those who stand to profit from those who are willing to go into any amount of debt - be smart and plan your course of action wisely.

Where are you geographically located?

[Almaghest]

I was going to point out exactly what Rebecca was saying about scholarships. SCAD is very generous with them compared to most private art schools and you can keep submitting over and over again until you get the money you need. Just remember SCAD likes traditional art in undergrad portfolios, it doesn't have to relate to your field of study at all.

I know how hard it can be to focus and get quality work done when you have family life/50 hours of work on your plate. Perhaps if you can get the scholarship money and grants/loans you need, SCAD would be worth your time just to be able to have a place to focus on your goals for a couple years. But like someone else said - SCAD will always be here waiting and the VSFX program and facilities are only getting better every year.

Also another thing to consider is what you want to specialize in, because some areas like modeling and animation are very competitive and much harder to get a high paying job in (I wouldn't recommend SCAD for either of these tracks), while other areas (namely shader/texture artist, rigging TD, render TD/wrangler, and anyone good at Houdini) are in much higher demand. Knowing what you want to specialize in will also allow you to make the most of your time at SCAD if you were to come here, versus most undergraduates who waffle around between specializations sometimes up until right before they graduate.

I think that attending a state school to study commonly offered things like computer science could be just as beneficial to you. Would your parents consider this "real school" and help you out? Maybe you could be closer to your daughter that way as well. A computer science background is just as useful, if not more useful, than a BFA in VSFX will be, especially because it will help you get those higher paying jobs. A much cheaper CS degree + training in CG on the side may in the long run be not only cheaper but set you apart from others applying for entry level jobs (most of my peers have little/no knowledge of programming/scripting which are very valuable skills to entry level artists.)

[ragdoll]

smaller shops might be the only place that would consider comp sci as useful, the smaller the shop, the more generalist they want their employees to be...and by small i mean like a start up company or one that's still growing...larger studios would prefer to hire someone that's really good at just one thing...if you check say Pixar's website, they have comp sci as a requirement for interns applying for the TD department...the more programming languages you know the better your chances. so pick your target, and go for it...tho at this point it would be more beneficial for you to specialize rather than generalize. if i were to specialize i'd go for animation, but that's me. knowing you took comp sci, maybe you'd prefer to become a TD, technical and artistic sides are completely different but still need to understand each other to work well together. again, lots of information available online. i also agree with what dnash said...if you're doing the self taught route, set goals and stick with them.

[Mekhit]

Ok, lots of good stuff here. I think I may go self taught so I don't have to leave my daughter and from what I HEAR the starting salary is, it won't be enough to offset the loan amount plus the current loans I'm paying on now. I have some training stuff and like four official Autodesk Maya Training books to get started.

When I said that my brother hopefully will get a job at Pixar I meant that he's a senior this year and applying for the summer internship. He tried last year and they told him he was the last one NOT picked. If they would've gotten one more choice, it would've been him. So he beefed up his demo reel and he's going for it again this year. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for him. What sucks, though, is that he's 5 years younger and I'm the one that got him into this stuff when I was going to ITT. I showed him 3DS Max and he fell in love. It's like he stole my dream, but I can't be mad at him for doing good, I'm very proud of him. He got a full ride at SCAD.

[Mekhit]

Perhaps if you can get the scholarship money and grants/loans you need, SCAD would be worth your time just to be able to have a place to focus on your goals for a couple years.

This is exactly why I want to go to school. It's hard to focus on goals when you're working 45-50 hours a week and raising a kid. You don't have time for much else. I wish I could afford a part time job, but I pay over 700 dollars a month just for daycare. It's ridiculous.

Oh, and Rebecca, I'm located in Ft. Worth, Texas. There isn't shit out here for schools. It's so funny when people ask me if I have considered the Art Institute...I just laugh.

[Mekhit]

SCAD has a reputation as a school that routinely offers half tuition scholarships (they offered me one years and years ago out of high school) and they have done so for many others.

I'd polish, polish, polish your portfolio on the cheap at the cc level and keep talking to reps at National Portfolio Day (http://www.portfolioday.net/) until they deem you good enough to offer you scholarship money. Even if it took several years to do, the main thing is that receiving scholarship money would make a huge difference in your financial outlook long term. Especially since you already have a large debt, I think you have to carefully weigh taking on any more, with a daughter. Don't pass on to her the lesson that taking on great debt is the solution to a problem.

Also I'd be realistic and honest with yourself about your skill level - if you are not able to receive scholarship money, you will have to evaluate how competitive your skills will be in a very tight market.

I would never discourage someone from 'pursuing their dreams', but that catchphrase is an overused term used by those who stand to profit from those who are willing to go into any amount of debt - be smart and plan your course of action wisely.

Where are you geographically located?

Well, I was trying for SCAD's academic scholarship because my GPAs were always above 3.8, but they recently lowered their max amount to only 10k a year while the school still costs roughly 40k a year to go to. So that's 30k a year and I'm estimating I would have to go about 3 years if I took all the semesters including Summer. That's 90k in loans, add interest and then add my current 34k loan. That's a huge payment. This is why I think I should just discipline myself and go self taught. I just don't have much time for anything. Hell, I don't even go out with my friends as it is.

[Mekhit]

Also another thing to consider is what you want to specialize in, because some areas like modeling and animation are very competitive and much harder to get a high paying job in (I wouldn't recommend SCAD for either of these tracks), while other areas (namely shader/texture artist, rigging TD, render TD/wrangler, and anyone good at Houdini) are in much higher demand. Knowing what you want to specialize in will also allow you to make the most of your time at SCAD if you were to come here, versus most undergraduates who waffle around between specializations sometimes up until right before they graduate.

I was thinking about going into dynamics. I like particle systems a lot and After Effects. I truly like the whole aspect of it all. 3D modeling was so much fun, but I think I would get burned out if it was a job. Dynamics I think I could do, though.

[Almaghest]

Collin County community college is very close to you and actually has one of the ONLY Computer Animation degrees at a community college in the country. I took some studio art classes there while living in north Dallas and had a professor for Drawing I that was actually better than most of my studio art professors here at SCAD. That Drawing I class DID transfer so that is an excellent place to look at getting your foundations done with and transferring them to save even more money.

Are you positive that this does not mean you could get a combined academic/artistic scholarship for $10,000? There appears to be nothing on SCAD's website stating you cannot qualify for both scholarships, e.g. you could get $10k for your GPA and $5k for your portfolio for a total for $15k, max $20k.



.larger studios would prefer to hire someone that's really good at just one thing...if you check say Pixar's website, they have comp sci as a requirement for interns applying for the TD department..

The fact that Pixar has computer science requirements/suggestions indicates that large studios DO want to see that you have a multifaceted education. They are looking for specialists meaning they do not want people who can model, texture, and light semi-well, they want people who can do one of these things very well. Animators are probably the only people in the pipeline not expected to have any technical background. I would not advise taking out heavy loans to specialize in Animation because the competition is FIERCE. EVERYONE besides concept art/graphic design and animation will benefit from programming/scripting knowledge and familiarity with LINUX.

Anyway Mehkit specifically mentioned VSFX so I immediately assumed he wanted a technical position, in which case a computer science background would be helpful. Many of the people here at SCAD blowing away everyone else's work have backgrounds in computer science/software development that has allowed them to pick up on things like MEL very quickly that make their workflows infinitely more productive. An FX TD especially would benefit from Python/MEL knowledge, no doubt about it.

SideFX seems strangely open to who they accept as interns. I have known people who had only generalist knowledge of Maya and a very basic exposure to Houdini (but computer science background) that got into the internship, did incredibly well, and got hired as FX TD's almost immediately afterwards. This is food for thought. If you can get into it, that internship is said to be one of the most beneficial in the industry.

[Mekhit]

Collin County community college is very close to you and actually has one of the ONLY Computer Animation degrees at a community college in the country. I took some studio art classes there while living in north Dallas and had a professor for Drawing I that was actually better than most of my studio art professors here at SCAD. That Drawing I class DID transfer so that is an excellent place to look at getting your foundations done with and transferring them to save even more money.

Are you positive that this does not mean you could get a combined academic/artistic scholarship for $10,000? There appears to be nothing on SCAD's website stating you cannot qualify for both scholarships, e.g. you could get $10k for your GPA and $5k for your portfolio for a total for $15k, max $20k.




The fact that Pixar has computer science requirements/suggestions indicates that large studios DO want to see that you have a multifaceted education. They are looking for specialists meaning they do not want people who can model, texture, and light semi-well, they want people who can do one of these things very well. Animators are probably the only people in the pipeline not expected to have any technical background. I would not advise taking out heavy loans to specialize in Animation because the competition is FIERCE. EVERYONE besides concept art/graphic design and animation will benefit from programming/scripting knowledge and familiarity with LINUX.

Anyway Mehkit specifically mentioned VSFX so I immediately assumed he wanted a technical position, in which case a computer science background would be helpful. Many of the people here at SCAD blowing away everyone else's work have backgrounds in computer science/software development that has allowed them to pick up on things like MEL very quickly that make their workflows infinitely more productive. An FX TD especially would benefit from Python/MEL knowledge, no doubt about it.

SideFX seems strangely open to who they accept as interns. I have known people who had only generalist knowledge of Maya and a very basic exposure to Houdini (but computer science background) that got into the internship, did incredibly well, and got hired as FX TD's almost immediately afterwards. This is food for thought. If you can get into it, that internship is said to be one of the most beneficial in the industry.

The only problem with the a portfolio is that I don't have one. All my work was lost a long time ago before I even seriously considered going into this. I'm currently taking classes at Tarrant County College and they are going to transfer, I made sure of that. Fortunately, SCAD does have special consideration scholarships that I might be able to receive. I'm still going to apply and see how much of a scholarship I can get before making my decision. If I'm not mistaken, doesn't SCAD offer some computer science classes? I suppose it would be cheaper at a comm. college, but I was trying to get into SCAD this fall. I don't want to wait much longer because then my daughter will be older and I'll miss more of her school years than I would like. So, I'm still going to apply and wait for that letter, then make my decision. But thank you all, you have given me much to consider. I appreciate it.

[gawl126]

There's a program at the University of Texas in Dallas called "Arts and Technology" (http://www.utdallas.edu/ah/atec/about/). I have no opinions about this program, but I think it might be worth checking out since it's relatively close to you.

There's also Texas A&M's Visualization Sciences (http://vvvvvv.viz.tamu.edu/) program over in College Station which is 3 hours from you. I'm not too familiar with the undergrad program, but if it is anything like their grad program then you're in for a treat. Here's a little description of what's going on this summer for these students:

Each year, students taking the Summer Industry Course (VIZA 627) get the opportunity to work with artists, technical supervisors and other talented professionals from the CG industry. Last year, students worked with Disney Animation Studios. This year, students will work with individuals from DreamWorks to produce animated shorts based upon a story idea developed by DreamWorks.

EDIT: Mentioned these schools for cheaper alternatives to a dedicated art school.

[dnashj33]

The self-taught route is very, very common in this industry...as it's still a relatively new profession, and public education (Universities/Jr. Colleges) has been rather slow in picking it up.

It wouldn't hurt to apply to SCAD and pursue the scholarship route...and I would heavily emphasize to the Financial Aid rep you speak with, the current dilemma you're in and that there is no chance you will attend if you can't get a similar ride as your brother. Private schools aren't generous, as some have stated here...the generosity comes from wealthy donors to these scholarship funds. SCAD, like other private art colleges, is in business to make money. They just happen to be more aggressive than others in making funding resources available to prospective students.

Again...by sitting down and formulating a plan, then sticking to it, you can do the self-taught routine...cheaper, faster, and spend time with your daughter in the process. It isn't easy, but it's a matter of identifying what amount of time daily you can devote to learning/training/building your portfolio. Can you squeeze 2hrs in, if you cut out all TV/Internet time? If the answer is "Yes," then it's a matter of deciding what is more important...doing what it takes to get into the career you want...or kickback time. One way or the other, a sacrifice has to be made. Which will cost you the least?

I would recommend subscribing to Digital Tutors if your interest is in Maya. Here is one such course that you could follow and get a good grasp of the program to include fluids and dynamics. Their training in Maya is very extensive...and I would take the time to go through their Houdini material as well...if you really like VFX. Being proficient with the VFX tools in both of those should help you land a job.
http://www.digitaltutors.com/09/training.php?cid=5&pid=3632
http://www.digitaltutors.com/09/training.php?cid=42
http://www.digitaltutors.com/09/training.php?cid=82
http://www.digitaltutors.com/09/training.php?cid=84

If you are interested in 3ds Max, I would recommend Allan McKay's DVD's covering Particle Flow, Afterburn and FumeFX...he has some really good stuff, and for what it's worth, there are plenty of studios using Max for VFX. In fact, it was used heavily on perhaps the most VFX heavy film of all time, 2012.
http://vfxsolution.com/allanmckay/store/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbBbQuAv99A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdbUPf4GH0Q

[Mekhit]

The self-taught route is very, very common in this industry...as it's still a relatively new profession, and public education (Universities/Jr. Colleges) has been rather slow in picking it up.

It wouldn't hurt to apply to SCAD and pursue the scholarship route...and I would heavily emphasize to the Financial Aid rep you speak with, the current dilemma you're in and that there is no chance you will attend if you can't get a similar ride as your brother. Private schools aren't generous, as some have stated here...the generosity comes from wealthy donors to these scholarship funds. SCAD, like other private art colleges, is in business to make money. They just happen to be more aggressive than others in making funding resources available to prospective students.

Again...by sitting down and formulating a plan, then sticking to it, you can do the self-taught routine...cheaper, faster, and spend time with your daughter in the process. It isn't easy, but it's a matter of identifying what amount of time daily you can devote to learning/training/building your portfolio. Can you squeeze 2hrs in, if you cut out all TV/Internet time? If the answer is "Yes," then it's a matter of deciding what is more important...doing what it takes to get into the career you want...or kickback time. One way or the other, a sacrifice has to be made. Which will cost you the least?

I would recommend subscribing to Digital Tutors if your interest is in Maya. Here is one such course that you could follow and get a good grasp of the program to include fluids and dynamics. Their training in Maya is very extensive...and I would take the time to go through their Houdini material as well...if you really like VFX. Being proficient with the VFX tools in both of those should help you land a job.
http://www.digitaltutors.com/09/training.php?cid=5&pid=3632
http://www.digitaltutors.com/09/training.php?cid=42
http://www.digitaltutors.com/09/training.php?cid=82
http://www.digitaltutors.com/09/training.php?cid=84

If you are interested in 3ds Max, I would recommend Allan McKay's DVD's covering Particle Flow, Afterburn and FumeFX...he has some really good stuff, and for what it's worth, there are plenty of studios using Max for VFX. In fact, it was used heavily on perhaps the most VFX heavy film of all time, 2012.
http://vfxsolution.com/allanmckay/store/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbBbQuAv99A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdbUPf4GH0Q

WOW, thank you so much for this help! This is something I really needed. I know I have some books, but I had a hard time finding worthy material online. I'm going to do this AND apply to SCAD still. I'm about to have my application finished this weekend so I should hear back before too long from them about the scholarship. Again, thank you!

[dnashj33]

WOW, thank you so much for this help! This is something I really needed. I know I have some books, but I had a hard time finding worthy material online. I'm going to do this AND apply to SCAD still. I'm about to have my application finished this weekend so I should hear back before too long from them about the scholarship. Again, thank you!Sure thing...Gnomon is another good resource for more advanced material:
http://www.thegnomonworkshop.com/store/products/tutorials/aal_series/

3DBuzz is also worth looking at for Maya and Houdini...although they have some Max resources that are pretty in-depth as well.
http://www.3dbuzz.com

[SanjayChand]

Also another thing to consider is what you want to specialize in, because some areas like modeling and animation are very competitive and much harder to get a high paying job in (I wouldn't recommend SCAD for either of these tracks), while other areas (namely shader/texture artist, rigging TD, render TD/wrangler, and anyone good at Houdini) are in much higher demand. Knowing what you want to specialize in will also allow you to make the most of your time at SCAD if you were to come here, versus most undergraduates who waffle around between specializations sometimes up until right before they graduate.

This is very, very, true.

In my experience, the vast majority of people who go to CG schools want to be modelers, and then maybe animators.

This isnt to say you shouldnt pursue what you are passionate about, but personally I would not recommend going the modeling route UNLESS you are very, very, very, very good or are as equally good at something else.

When I graduated from school, most of my reel was monsters/creatures and quite a bit of modeling work. But I really spent alot of time on my lighting and comp skills and that is what lead me to my first job working on a feature film as a lighting artist.

With all of that said, unless you want to be an animator, I would recommend learning modeling and getting decent/good at it, but getting very good at something else if getting a job is your first and primary concern.

[Mekhit]

This is very, very, true.

In my experience, the vast majority of people who go to CG schools want to be modelers, and then maybe animators.

This isnt to say you shouldnt pursue what you are passionate about, but personally I would not recommend going the modeling route UNLESS you are very, very, very, very good or are as equally good at something else.

When I graduated from school, most of my reel was monsters/creatures and quite a bit of modeling work. But I really spent alot of time on my lighting and comp skills and that is what lead me to my first job working on a feature film as a lighting artist.

With all of that said, unless you want to be an animator, I would recommend learning modeling and getting decent/good at it, but getting very good at something else if getting a job is your first and primary concern.

I used to want to be a modeler, but quickly came to realize exactly what you were saying. That you have to extremely proficient to make a career out of it. That being said, I do know how to model fairly decent, which I plan to improve on, but I want to specialize in dynamics, so I'll probably go that route.

[Maytridy]

Depending on your interests, you might want to consider a computer science degree. If you're into that kind of stuff, a CS degree is a GREAT way to get your foot into the door of some of these studios.

I'm currently studying for my bachelor's in CS. I've always loved to make 3D stuff as a hobby, but I've never formally studied art. I was able to land an internship at Pixar this summer thanks to my technical background. However, if it wasn't for my CS background, my artistic abilities would have never cut it. Personally, I think you have much better chances of landing a job in the industry being formally educated in CS with artistic abilities rather than formally educated in art with some minor programming experience.

Just my personal opinion. Good luck, avoid debt!

[kelvincai]

That really depends on what you really good at and passionate about.

CG is composed of Computer and Graphics.

If you are more a texture artist, matte painter, modeler/sculptor, or even lighter (not lighting TD), etc, then going to BFA is the route to take.

If you are more a technical person, then CS degree is safer and can get you to know the truth behind all those softwares.

If you think writing rsl and/or learning houdini is hard, then BFA.

Having a degree of any sort, in nowadays, is safer for long term. If you somehow failed your CG dream, you still have a degree to fall onto (although I hope we all don't need to do that).

At worst case, all those studios have non-CG jobs, ie. IT, web design, Flash etc, in which case, a degree is mostly required. Thru those, you could get a foot in the doors and get a internal transfer to other CG jobs after you proved you talents.

[fig]

Depending on your interests, you might want to consider a computer science degree. If you're into that kind of stuff, a CS degree is a GREAT way to get your foot into the door of some of these studios.

I'm currently studying for my bachelor's in CS. I've always loved to make 3D stuff as a hobby, but I've never formally studied art. I was able to land an internship at Pixar this summer thanks to my technical background. However, if it wasn't for my CS background, my artistic abilities would have never cut it. Personally, I think you have much better chances of landing a job in the industry being formally educated in CS with artistic abilities rather than formally educated in art with some minor programming experience.

Just my personal opinion. Good luck, avoid debt!

The Viz Lab program at Texas A&M mentioned a few posts back (which didn't have an undergraduate program until just recently) is actually a really interesting combination of art and comp sci and would fit this exactly. A lot of folks out of the graduate Viz Lab program are are Pixar, ILM, Dreamworks, and other studios as TDs.

[Maytridy]

That sounds like a great program. I sometimes wish that I could combine my degree with a more artistic side.

[cgforliving]

A list of schools by Dreamworks
http://careers.dreamworksanimation.com/outreach.php

Pixar used to have one, can't find it now.

The list probably does not mean these are the best schools for computer graphics, it's just a list of schools from where they had previously hired some graduates or interns.

Rhythm has a list too
http://rhythm.com/inside_randh/opportunities_faq.shtml#faq7

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