Im almost done having my livelihood rely on technology

[cgbeige]

This is one of the benefits of buying from a single vendor. I had a repair on a Mac Pro recently and they ended up basically swapping out the logic board, the CPU and the fans (don't ask) so there was none of this "it's his problem" type stuff. It was a pain in the ass of a repair but each of the parts came overnight, it didn't cost me anything and I basically have a new machine on the inside of the case.

I wouldn't buy RAM and HDs from system retailers but this type of thing is more than worth paying a little extra to avoid in my experience.

edit: As much as I'm a champion of local retailers for food and stuff, any time I've had to rely on a smaller-than-huge company for computer RMAs, it's been a nightmare. OWC (macsales.com): After being blamed for a missing part they failed to send back to me, I had to get an editor from Ars to contact someone they knew at the company to "vouch for me" that I wasn't trying to steal a ****ing external HD power supply. Ncix: sent me a broken firewire cord and never returned my emails until I ended up on the phone with the company that makes the cord (evidently a single guy in his car), who called them to get in touch with me. HP even sent me three broken screens in a row. The big companies aren't perfect but the fewer people you have to chase to deal with a problem, the better.

[imashination]

Buy a Dell/Boxx? If your machine is so vital you cant live without it for a few days, buy the business support contract. They will deliver a replacement to you the same day you call them.

[eem]

if I ever got the money together in the future to do that, I would probably go to boxx and get a nice warranty

but this system I put together was done on a very very strict budget. I got this nehalem workstation put together for less than $1500 shipped

I also really like picking out individual components too

[olson]

I prefer not to buy from companies like Apple (Dell, HP, etc.), because then you must rely on them to repair it for you on their terms and most of the time those terms suck. Instead of worrying about RMA and not having a system for weeks just go and buy another power supply, then when you have time RMA the old one so you have a spare. Hindsight is 20/20 but next time maybe buy a less expensive system and put some cash aside so you can afford to repair things when they go funky because they will. This isn't so much a lesson learned on computer hardware but a lesson on having a plan B in general. Better luck next time if you decide you want to continue with computer graphics. Cheers!

[cgbeige]

if I ever got the money together in the future to do that, I would probably go to boxx and get a nice warranty

but this system I put together was done on a very very strict budget. I got this nehalem workstation put together for less than $1500 shipped.

And if you were busy with deadlines for two different clients, it would have just lost you how much money? The week after I had my machine repaired, I had a $4k contract that had a very short deadline. If the repair would have been sending parts around to a bunch of different companies, troubleshooting and organizing with small companies, I'd have been out of a lot of money. Even with the gong show that ensued by the Mac shop trying to sort out the problem and replacing a bunch of parts, getting all these parts took a fraction of the time it would have taken to do it from separate vendors and retailers.

Roll-your-own is fine for build-it-and-leave it servers but I'd never want a workstation without someone I can yell at when it breaks (and one repair place to go to, just up the street). Not 15 different warranties and no one answering the phone.

[eem]

And if you were busy with deadlines for two different clients, it would have just lost you how much money? Roll-your-own is fine for build-it-and-leave it servers but I'd never want a workstation without someone I can yell at when it breaks. Not 15 different warranties and no one answering the phone.


I would of had some lost clients...

[sentry66]

screw BOXX

I've bought their machines before and they're fine....just way overpriced.

And screw Dell and their proprietary parts and bastardized case designs

Thinkmate.com is much more reasonable, uses off the shelf parts, and their techs are cool enough to pretty much take your word if something broke and overnight you the part if you're willing to install it yourself. You always have the option to ship your PC to them though, but I'd hope most people would never do that and sit around for a few days without their workstation.


That said, I've been thinking of building my own PC for home freelance work now that overclocking is so big again and it'd be kinda fun, but stories like this remind me why I was happy to start buying from vendors in the first place

[eem]

screw BOXX

I've bought their machines before and they're fine....just way overpriced.

And screw Dell and their proprietary parts and bastardized case designs

Thinkmate.com is much more reasonable, uses off the shelf parts, and their techs are cool enough to pretty much take your word if something broke and overnight you the part if you're willing to install it yourself. You always have the option to ship your PC to them though, but I'd hope most people would never do that and sit around for a few days without their workstation.


That said, I've been thinking of building my own PC for home freelance work now that overclocking is so big again and it'd be kinda fun, but stories like this remind me why I was happy to start buying from vendors in the first place


its actually incredibly rare for a failed power supply to fry a system but... can still happen

[meleseDESIGN]

If you have the knowlege to build the systems yourself, why the hell don´t you get everything twice an use the second machine as backup/rendernode/or whatsoever?

You probably would spend the same amount of money if you gought an of-the-shelf rig.
Spend the money und buy your own RMA hardware and have it right next to you when you need it or use for other tasks while both machines are working.

There is no need to buy from BOXX/DELL if you are able to fix hardware issues and have the time by your own, i think.


;)

[cgbeige]

ya, why buy one hassle machine that you can't use when you can have two to maintain!

haha.

It's good to have a laptop handy for stuff like this but two home-brews? no thanks.

[meleseDESIGN]

Do you really think the hardware in your machine is any dfferent from those you can buy in a store separately, or do you think the ppl who did built your machine were any better on doing this as you?

Common, any of those shelf machines are hand built, i´m pretty sure you can do this too.

;)

[Jettatore]

I'd go for two custom built machines personally, like Melee said, over buying from an overpriced, major vendor, but that is just me. I don't like big vendors.

I would definitely have 2 or 3 (for the price of one) as a backup, and then there isn't any problem.

But don't mean to take this as I am patronizing the 1st poster. I think they made it clear that's what they would have done if they had the spare cash on hand to make that work. I'm really sorry to hear that. Sounds like bad luck. I hope you get everything sorted out, and take the downtime to do something else you've been meaning to do.

CBeige's one idea about have a backup be a laptop is a good one too. Then you have a backup that isn't just redundant, you can take it with you on vacation or to your client appointment meeting. But again, that costs money to pull off.

Good luck to you.

[cgbeige]

Do you really think the hardware in your machine is any dfferent from those you can buy in a store separately, or do you think the ppl who did built your machine were any better on doing this as you?


I didn't say it wasn't the same - I said I want fast support and people who will take responsibility, answer the phone, apologize when something's an hour late and freak out as much as I would when my hardware fails and I can't work. That's the service I get when I deal with Apple-certified techs. I had one of the MacBook Pros that was affected by the infamous Geforce 8600M bug (all of them were faulty) and I had the motherboard replaced 3 times, each time I lost all of two hours of usage because I could just bring it in and they swapped the part. That was the day after I reported the problem. The fourth time it happened, they replaced the whole machine so I got a new MBP after a year of beating one into the ground. By this time, it was publicly acknowledged that the Nvidia parts were all faulty and Apple extended the warranty for all these machines, regardless of existing warranties, to 3 years coverage. Try and get your local vendor to do something like that. I'm not saying good service is exclusive to Apple (although they do command a huge lead in all areas: http://www.slashgear.com/consumer-reports-apple-has-best-tech-support-1077322/ ) but I've never had the feeling like I was struggling to get good service and really fast.


Common, any of those shelf machines are hand built, i´m pretty sure you can do this too.

Pet peeve: it's "come on," not common.

I'm a graphic designer – I like fiddling with the bash command line and MEL scripts, not fiddling with hardware when it breaks and I need to work.

[Jettatore]

You can just put your computer on a repair plan at Geek Squad or your local mom and pop computer shop then. Otherwise, if you know what your doing, why not just have several machines working, and available for the price of one. If crap hits the fan on one rig, bam you save the RMA phone call for later and you've only lost 4 minutes rather than 2 hours or 2 weeks. You save on gas too. Again, I do like the laptop idea though, or the rendering machine idea. Both have a dual purpose that prevents the expense from merely being redundant backup.

[meleseDESIGN]

I'd go for two custom built machines personally, like Melee said, over buying from an overpriced, major vendor, but that is just me. I don't like big vendors.

Just to clear this statement.
I don´t think that the machines from major vendors are overpriced and I wouldn´t recommend to go for a custom built machine if you don´t have the knowlege how to make it or if you are a big studio - last mentioned would probably cause more issues as buying multiple rigs from a vendor.

By that said, someone has to pay the wages for the emloyee who built the systems at those major vendors, the pricing is up to the vendors.

;)

[Jettatore]

Yeah but there are people and stores that do the same job the vendors do, for $50 - $200 while the vendors charge an additional 50% - 200% which can be up to thousands more. Sometimes they even do a better/cleaner job of things and they don't often cut as many corners on parts.

[meleseDESIGN]

Yeah but there are people and stores that do the same job the vendors do, for $50 - $200 while the vendors charge an additional 50% - 200% which can be up to thousands more. Sometimes they even do a better/cleaner job of things and they don't often cut as many corners on parts.

Ok, but major vendors have a lot more costs to back up as the guy next door.
Or do you think all the Apple logos in so many films did it in there without that Apple had to pay for - this is called marketing big vendors do?

Not to mention the insurance/support business from major vendors differs from many other smaler vendors - insurance/support is a separate business beside the main business to sell hardware. You can make a lot of money with support/insurance if you´re a major vendor!

Anyway, we are getting off here...

;)

[cgbeige]

I've priced the Nehalem Xeons - Apple's premium is not high. It's not a cheap machine but neither are the parts. But they are, at most, 25% more than a vanilla dual Xeon box and that 25% adds a lot in peace of mind and good support. They've earned it more than enough times in my experience (I got this Nehalem Mac Pro after complaining to them that I just bought the Penryn, so they took the machine back and let me upgrade).

Yes, you will always pay more for retail machines but if I can add an SSD, third-party RAM and swap out the video card, etc. without voiding the warranty, then I'm pretty happy. I'll be waiting until it's out of warranty to swap out the CPUs for the latest X5680

[meleseDESIGN]

...good support. They've earned it more than enough times in my experience.

So do my with vendors who sales the hardware separatly.
If somethings wild is going on with any of the parts in my systems and their is still warranty on it, I just send it to the vendor where i bought it and i get a brand new one free of any charge , my vendor even pays the shipping costs.

Maybe it´s somehow different in your country where you have regulary just a 1 year warranty, we hav 3 years without to pay extra.

;)

[Jettatore]

I'll price one out for fun, but don't forget, buying 1 piece at a time at marked up retail prices shouldn't compare to a massive vendor that can buy in bulk.

[eem]

You know if I had the extra money I think I would of just bought more spare parts for my workstation.

Apple is literally more than twice as much in price for not as good of specs. My workstation, dual nehalem at 2.26, 9 gb fast ddr3, gtx 260 (with quieter heatpipe cooling) was about $1500 from newegg. I had a case to put it in, a proffesional soundcard and some hard drives to put in a raid to go with it, but thats a benefit of building yourself, you have spare parts to let you save money when putting together new systems.

I'm looking at apples 8-core, and you can't even get comparable specs for $3400. The best video card apple offers is a GT 120? And that $3400 doesn't include raid, or a fancy sound card.

I find it kind of absurd to pay more than twice as much to get a system that won't perform as well just to get OSX and thorough tech support.

Which I know the obvious thought here is my computer FRIED, perhaps I'm at a loss to make a judgement on this subject. But the components in my comp were not bad at all, all my components were actually very good. Just my power supply had a freak accident. I could have bought a nicer power supply, I had an OCZ 700 watt, which I thought OCZ was a nice company. But... oh well. All power supplies, no matter how nice, have some percentage of failure.

My dillemna here would of been much easier to get by on if I had multiple workstations, because then I could test the potentialy failed parts easier, or just keep working on the second workstation. Which I could literally get two workstations built myself for the price of one from apple.

I'd also like to say that ASUS server tech support is really good. There consumer grade division of tech support is lackluster, but if you have a server product, they transfer you to another division which the people there you can tell know what there talking about from actual experience, don't assume your an idiot. And they will advance RMA your parts, which means, they will overnight ship it the day you call, and you can ship the failed part back later. Intel server hardware will also do advance RMA like that as well. A single component failure in a self-built computer could be fixed in one day.

[cgbeige]

how did you build a dual Nehalem 2.66 for $1500 when each processor is $1000?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819117182&cm_re=x5550-_-19-117-182-_-Product

edit: my mistake. you wrote 2.26GHz and it's $385 each. Ya, that's definitely a lot cheaper than Apple's offering. The 4870 is the better card but I agree that Apple's video card options are shitty, unless you buy the GTX 285 separately...

I have a phoner with AMD some time in the next couple weeks. Hopefully they'll announce something updated for Macs.

[meleseDESIGN]

how did you build a dual Nehalem 2.66 for $1500 when each processor is $1000?

Ehm, he said 2,26.

;)

[Jettatore]

I did two to start. This is comparing only the default settings on the US Applestore, I didn't change anything except I did two versions with different processor speeds.

Mac Price $3,299USD vs. PC Custom Built Price $1,951USD ($1,384 price difference)


2x 2.26GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon $384 x2 ($696) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819117185&cm_re=2.26ghz_quad-core_intel_xeon-_-19-117-185-_-Product
Server Motherboard $400
6GB (6x1) $228 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148242&cm_re=ddr3_ecc-_-20-148-242-_-Product
640GB HDD $75 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136319
GeForce GT 120 (512mb) $42 (but can only find the 220 step up version as the 120 is discontinued for resale) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127463
DVD-RW $30
Case $160 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129043
Power $130 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817182188
Mouse & Keyboard $50 combo
Windows 7 x64 Professional $140 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116758


Mac Price $5,899USD vs. PC Custom Built Price $4,133USD ($1,766 price difference)

2x 2.93GHz $1,439x2 ($2,878) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819117180&cm_re=2.93ghz_quad-core_intel_xeon-_-19-117-180-_-Product
Server Motherboard $400
6GB (6x1) $228
640GB HDD $75
GeForce GT 120 $42
DVD-RW $30
Case $160
Power $130
Mouse & Keyboard $50 combo
Windows 7 x64 Professional $140


I picked top notch, over-kill components for everything, no crazy corners cut. By the way, I don't reccomend anyone go out and build either one of these machines just because they are cheaper than Mac's and are exactly the same thing. Simply because you can do even better money/power wise if your not focused on matching the Mac spec for spec. But there's the price difference. Maybe I'll do another one later with a fully tricked out Mac, should be fun to see.

That should do it. Double check my work please, this was done quick and I know it can be done a few hundred bones cheaper if I wanted to.

[Jettatore]

IRT Asus consumer grade. I only had to deal with them once when I accidentally destroyed my BIOS. They were very friendly, tried to walk me through a repair and after that didn't work they sent me 2 free ones (1 replacement and a spare) both with the latest bios update on it. Not too shabby. But their website sucks (slow, clunky and hard to navigate).
----------------------------------------

I was looking through some official Mac accessories in their Apple Store and found this which I hope is useful to users of either platform.

Apple GTX 285 $449 http://store.apple.com/us/product/TW387ZM/A?fnode=MTY1NDA5OQ&mco=MTA4MzU2MDA

PC GTX 285 $389 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130480&cm_re=gtx_285-_-14-130-480-_-Product

-----

Apple Radeon 4870 only 512mb version $349 http://store.apple.com/us/product/MB999ZM/A?fnode=MTY1NDA5OQ&mco=MTA4MzU2NTc

PC Radeon 4870 full 1GB version $155 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161292&cm_re=ati_4870-_-14-161-292-_-Product

---

Apple Quadro FX 4800 $1,799 http://store.apple.com/us/product/TW386LL/A?fnode=MTY1NDA5OQ&mco=MTA4MzU2Nzg&s=topSellers

Apple Quadro FX 4800 $1,449 EXACT same card as above, specifically packaged for Mac but sold by newegg for $350 cheaper http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814133281&cm_re=quadro_fx_4800-_-14-133-281-_-Product

[sentry66]

Jettatore,

when I price out that same dual 2.26ghz system on Thinkmate's site, it comes out to around $2890 and includes a 3 year warranty

http://www.thinkmate.com/System/HPX_XS8-2410


When I look up that same system on apple's store, they sell it for $3300


the dual 2.93ghz system sells for $5900 from apple and about $5190 on thinkmate

[Jettatore]

Yes that is what Apple charges.

http://store.apple.com/us/configure/MB535LL/A?mco=MTM3NDc3NjI

I didn't get chance to look at what you did though...

Though on your link seems like they are selling dual 6core machines which is neat.

[sentry66]

so the take home message is a PC vendor sells for about 87% the price of apple, and if you built it yourself, it'd cost 70% what apple charges

[Jettatore]

Well the numbers would get even crazier if you actually fiddled with the options at the Apple store because they have a huge mark-up on everything, you can easily crack $10,000 without a monitor.

[meleseDESIGN]

so the take home message is a PC vendor sells for about 87% the price of apple, and if you built it yourself, it'd cost 70% what apple charges

For the research you made, sure it will.

You can get the parts, you guys discussing here, for a lesser príce.
160$ for a case is not necessary, either 130$ for a PSU for this specs nor 228$ for 6GB RAM!
A Server Motherboard you can get allready for around 300$ like the Asus Z8NA-D6/C.

I guess it all depends a bit where you live and from what vendor you will buy and I believe it doesn´t allways has to be newegg, in your country are a lot other smaler shops with nice offers on their website.

;)

[sentry66]

sure, you can always research and find better bang-for-the-buck parts, and skip or recycle other misc things, you can probably get it down to around 50% the cost of an equivalent mac


I've even seen home-made cases made from cardboard or wood with a house fan blowing over the whole thing. They probably saved almost $200 doing it, but that's a bit extreme.

[meleseDESIGN]

The take home message is allways the same when a discussion like that apears.
Don´t spend more money as necessary and invest the saved bucks for other things, like for an Wacom or good displays.

;)

[Jettatore]

Mac configuration explanation 10,299 (base machine w/Top CPU's, RAID Controller and Maxed out RAM direct from Apple) + 449 (GTX Upgrade from the Apple accessory shop) + 4x $749.00 (450GB 15,000 RPM SAS upgrade from the Apple accessory shop)


Mac Price $13,744 vs. PC Custom Built Price $7,301 ($6,443 price difference)

2x 2.93GHz $1,439x2 ($2,878) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819117180&cm_re=2.93ghz_quad-core_intel_xeon-_-19-117-180-_-Product
Server Motherboard $450 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131374&cm_re=dual_xeon_motherboard-_-13-131-374-_-Product
32GB (8x4GB) $1,148 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820134978&cm_re=4gb_ecc-_-20-134-978-_-Product
RAID Controller $330 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816116042
4x450GB 15,000RPM HDD $1,596 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822145314
GTX 285 $389 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130480&cm_re=gtx_285-_-14-130-480-_-Product
DVD-RW $30
Case $160 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129043
Power $130 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817182188
Mouse Keyboard combo $50
Windows 7 Pro x64 $140 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116758

Please double check my work. And no, I do not recommend building this, it's just a pricing test/fantasy shopping spree.

[cgbeige]

I would never buy my RAM or extra HDs from Apple. That same machine would cost $15,000+ from Dell.

Anyway, I didn't say Apple was the cheapest. I said that it's a load off when you need good support, a predictable machine and drivers and quick turnaround when it's broken.

[meleseDESIGN]

For "only" 45.000,00$ you get a Mistika... :eek:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250600847180


;)

[Jettatore]

Yeah that is nice, but Flame now runs on Linux. You could custom build a FLAME too. (Professionally unrealistic however unless you employ an on-site/on-call network admin who knows his stuff, which is why FLAME is what it is)

That's an absolutely horrible auction by the way, it doesn't come with the monitors nor does it come with a FLAME license. That computer isn't worth 1/4th the asking price if it were brand new, let alone used...

[meleseDESIGN]

Anyway, I didn't say Apple was the cheapest. I said that it's a load off when you need good support, a predictable machine and drivers and quick turnaround when it's broken.

That´s not really a reason to buy an far more expansive Apple.
Drivers, Support and quick RMA process you will get also from vendors where you buy the parts sepapatly. The only good reason i see to go for an Apple is when you need to use applications like Final Cut Pro or Logic Studio. Otherwise there is no need for an Apple.

;)

[Jettatore]

"The only good reason i see to go for an Apple is when you need to use applications like Final Cut Pro or Logic Studio. Otherwise there is no need for an Apple."

I don't think that's entirely necessary. It's too blanket of a statement, and I hate hearing it the other way around, directed at Windows. Even though I pretty much agree with you, it's just not polite to say outloud and I guarantee it's going to start an argument in an otherwise patient thread.

[meleseDESIGN]

Yeah that is nice, but Flame now runs on Linux. You could custom build a FLAME too. (Professionally unrealistic however unless you employ an on-site/on-call network admin who knows his stuff, which is why FLAME is what it is)


FLAME needs a bit more as just some LINUX OS.

The IFFFS Suite is tight bonded on a HP Workstation with a special (made for HP) Red Hat OS, also you need a Quadro FX and last but not least you need a hell lot money.
The Hardware and OS isn´t that expansive, but it´s a good (actually a bad) example how unreasonable things can be in the industrie.

Your right, that´s a terrible auction. I was just kidding as I post it.

;)

[Jettatore]

"I was just kidding"

I figured that much.

[SanjayChand]

This is precisely why ill always buy from a vendor. Ive worked from home before (80-100+ hour weeks) and there is absolutely no way I would have had time to screw around RMA'ing different parts and testing different components to figure out what is wrong.

[meleseDESIGN]

Sure, you can sit at home and wait for the RMA'ing is going on with your vendor where you bought your rig or get your hands on work and do it yourself (or let it do a service station near you). The chance something will fail is reasonable compared to the little extra money you spend for support from major vendors. To buy a rig from an vendor and pay for support is no guarantee for anything. Your vendor could announce insolvencies everyday aso.

There are several good reasons for multible opportunities.

;)

[cgbeige]

To buy a rig from an vendor and pay for support is no guarantee for anything.

Everyone here who buys from vendors is telling you the exact opposite from experience and the OP has just told you the exact opposite as well. You get timely support and less headaches when there are problems. But you also get a relatively predictable, consistent support experience so you can make future purchasing decisions and recommendations based on that experience. If you ran around buying the cheapest stuff from everywhere, you'd have no idea what you were getting yourself into if this mess of product breaks. Obviously it doesn't make sense to buy everything from system vendors but as long as you don't void a warranty, then you're good to take it to the vendor and have it fixed, quickly. The Apple technicians didn't tell me "sorry, you bought third-party RAM, a Blu-ray burner, OCZ vertex SSD, etc. so we can't help you." They just fixed the machine - quickly.

Price-wise, I paid $75 for three years of warranty coverage for my Mac Pro. I'm not complaining.

[meleseDESIGN]

When you pay for a warranty, you get nothing substantial, there is no such a guarantee!
You just have in mind that you have a guarantee because that´s what you payed, vendors pretend they will give you a guarantee, but there is no such a guarantee.

Remember all those poor ppl who thought their money will be guaranteed putting it to a bank? And what happend with the money as the financial crisis burned their money? They thought as you, they thought their money would be safe at a bank bacause the bank gave them a "guarantee".

Like I said: "There are several good reasons for multible opportunities."

;)

[cgbeige]

"warranties are useless because banks don't work" - that's some mind-bending logic.

you should work for the Republicans. Rush Limbaugh and that blond dude on Fox need some bad argument competition.

[meleseDESIGN]

"warranties are useless because banks don't work" - that's some mind-bending logic.

Sure it is mind-bending logic if you say something like this.
Don´t put self construed phrases into my mouth. I didn´t say that, you would know that if you go back some posts and read carefully what I really said.
Everyone can read it too, so there is actually no need I must fight here for what i´ve said.



:rolleyes:

[olson]

Seriously, there's still no consensus about this? If you don't trust yourself or can't manage money well enough to maintain a home built system then buy from a reputable builder and let them worry about it (for better or for worse). That pretty much sums it up. :thumbsup:

[tuna]

That pretty much sums it up. :thumbsup:

But what about the banks? I thought we were talking about banks now :confused:

[meleseDESIGN]

Seriously, there's still no consensus about this? If you don't trust yourself or can't manage money well enough to maintain a home built system then buy from a reputable builder and let them worry about it (for better or for worse). That pretty much sums it up. :thumbsup:

Luke, you are my sunshine in this discussion! :love:

That´s exactly what (at least) I was trying to say, but somehow or for some reason Dave wont recognize it, either he will tolerate the opinion of ppl who built their own rigs and take support of vendors outside Apple - so it seems if I read his last post.


;)

[meleseDESIGN]

But what about the banks? I thought we were talking about banks now :confused:

That´s funny.
No discussion about banks here, sorry.
The banks were just used as an comparism/example for the thought that every vendor could announce insolvencies everyday and the support/warranty you have paid for is NO guarantee that it wont happen.

I was pointing to this thought because some ppl think if they pay for support/warranty nothing bad could happen to them anymore.

;)

[brianod]

I can emphathize with EEM. On a fresh build and a bad post you really need a spare PS, memory sticks, cpu, video card (which is why I like onboard video as a backup), and even a spare MB. Just to troubleshoot. I always disconnect hard drives and any unneeded slot cards until I get a good post.

A good PC repair shop usually has the parts to swap out (that's how they diagnose and fix) but an 8 core system would scare off most mom and pop fixits.

I too don't like vendors like Dell, Gateway, etc. for high end systems. Those are not as upgradeable as a clone build.

At this point I think he has to bite the bullet and take it to a shop. It will be $200 plus parts but at least they are responsible for the unused swap parts.

Good luck.

[imashination]

Last time I took a machine to the local repair place, their PSU testing dongle was so out of date, it couldnt test ATX power supplies even though they'd been out half a century.

"oh, it doesnt fit, your machine must be a bit too cutting edge"

Took it back home and jammed a paper clip in the end to test it.

[meleseDESIGN]

Last time I took a machine to the local repair place, their PSU testing dongle was so out of date, it couldnt test ATX power supplies even though they'd been out half a century.

"oh, it doesnt fit, your machine must be a bit too cutting edge"

Took it back home and jammed a paper clip in the end to test it.


Sure, you have to take also every local repair place with care.
There´re many black sheeps trying to rip you off in this business too.
That´s why I say it can´t hurt to learn how to repair your systems by your self and have the RMA hardware right beside you. To figure out what´s the problem, when your systems wont function correctly, takes about an 1 hour, if not less.

Years ago i bought my rigs at big vendors too, but I had many really bad experiences with them too. Then I started to learn how to fix problems, after a few month learning it i saw no reason for me to buy from big vendors any longer. I even shaped my own RMA area in my basement.

If I would go to a local repair place, i´m sure they will find something, even if everythings is in good condition. Because it´s their business, they have to find something, even if there isn´t anything to find. Otherwiese they wouldn´t make profit. I´m not the best customer for them, either for big vendors, but surely for many other little shops where i buy my parts separatly.


I know it´s not everyones thing to learn how to fix their systems and it also doesn´t has to.
But earnestly, it´s just one of those multible opportunities which works for me for many good reasons.

;)

[eem]

I got my computer fixed and am over my hatred of technology and am ready to go at CG again!

Ill tell you, intel server support is really awesome. If you have a xeon, or any other server hardware, you call up intel, tell them it is dead, they will overnight ship you a new one that day, without taking down any information except your name, address and cpu numbers. Then when the box comes, it has a pre-printed, pre-paid UPS label to ship it back.

[meleseDESIGN]

I´ll second this, Intel´s support is really good, so does Supermicro´s and Asus´s aso.
Nice to hear that you´re in a good condition to work again.

;)

[GrimPixel]

Forgive me if its already been stated, but the main thing that seems to be missing from the home brew argument is your lost time. I do small side job design work as supplementary income. Nothing that I would consider depending on the computer to earn my living with. My day time employer gets to deal with the computers and "peoples livings."

Its hard to say since I usually charge by job, but I like to keep it roughly around $100 an hour for design work. Every hour I have to spend fixing a computer costs me 100 dollars of usable time. Lets say actual down time for RMA's or having a company come out are the same. I am just talking about the time I have to take to troubleshoot and then replace parts in a home brew that I could have spent working. If we use the homebuilt PC vs. a Dell(not at all recommending Dell just a prebuilt point of reference) posted on page 2. The home built system was $1951, and a Dell with the same specs is $2157. If I even have to spend 2 hours screwing with any part of the system and not working I have lost money.

If we compare the Mac to the home brew PC posted. The difference in cost was $1384. So, the way I look at it is, if I spend more then 13 hours of time trouble shooting and replacing parts over 3 years and would have spent that time working. I have lost money. I am not sure why people never include their most valuable resource, time, when looking at these comparisons.

If you decide your time is well spent on fixing computers, and your opportunity cost for your time is less. Then building your own can be a good choice. Just please, please, please remember to include your cost in time when thinking about this.

TLDR version - Your time is your most valuable asset. Maximize it anyway possible.

[meleseDESIGN]

http://1.1.1.1/bmi/forums.cgsociety.org/images/smilies/clap.gif

Holly cow! What are you smoking?
Are you the kind of superhero who is watching on his clock while his girlfriend ishttp://1.1.1.1/bmi/forums.cgsociety.org/images/smilies/bouncy.gifwith him in bed?

If you calculate time like this, it makes sense somehow. But earnestly, you can apply against spare time with the time you built and fix issues, or even better, make an hobby out of it. Even thought, this year I spend only 15 minutes to upgrad an extra HDD and some more RAM, since 5 years i had not any issue at all which would have taken more time. It´s not like you have to invest daily an hour from your spare/work time.

;) ...with a big SMILE

[vlad]

Forgive me if its already been stated, but the main thing that seems to be missing from the home brew argument is your lost time...
TLDR version - Your time is your most valuable asset. Maximize it anyway possible.

Personnally, I stopped wasting time and money with computers the day I started to fix things myself. Same goes for preparing meals, fixing my bikes, house etc. But hey, I understand your point. To each is own.

[meleseDESIGN]

Personnally, I stopped wasting time and money with computers the day I started to fix things myself.

Same it is here, less time and money wasting since the day I built the first rig myself, it´s now about 10 years ago. I must have done everything correct straight from the first day. Over the last 5 years I had much luck with my hardware, never failed any part durring this time. 5 Years without hardware issues is no curiosity either. With that said: you definitely can save even more money and time if you do it yourself - it might sounds contradictory, but that´s my experiences too!

;)

[GrimPixel]

As I ended my post pointing out, if your opportunity cost in time allows for it, then building your own can work. For myself, and many others. I have a family/children that I spend time with, a home, and a small(very small) vineyard that I spend time attending as a hobby. I used to make a hobby out of building and repairing my own computers, but like many people the computer has become only a tool. It is there only for work to get accomplished. Now time spent working on a computer takes away from my children, my home, and my wine. That time is priceless to me.

If you enjoy working on computers and would anyway, then great for you. I am suggesting that for many people, and possibly the OP from the sound of his post. That you need to factor in time spent on the system. For many people that time is too costly. It doesn't make either choice wrong or right for everyone.

Lets put it another way. If I am at work and decide to troubleshoot and try to fix a computer instead of get my actual work done. I have wasted company man hours. My boss is going to be livid. We can just push the deadline back right? I may literally have cost the company thousands of dollars worth of man hours. While the scale is more drastic. The point remains. Buying a prebuilt system and paying the difference can be a great choice in ensuring your time is spent working, and not fiddling with the system.

Maybe that clarifies my perspective.

Grim

[vlad]

Not necessarily, because buying a pre-built rig does not garantee you it wont fail somewhere down the line. So if something breaks, you still have to get it fixed. I find it way less time consuming going down to local store myself, remplace the part, get back home/office, stick new component in, boot, resume work. No RMAs, emails, forms to fill up, waiting time etc. Then again, if you spend so much time fixing your computer that it fills up all your free time and prevents you from having a social life, you're definitely doing something not right, and in that case maybe it is wiser to have someone knowledgeable do the work for you.

[meleseDESIGN]

Then again, if you spend so much time fixing your computer that it fills up all your free time and prevents you from having a social life, you're definitely doing something not right, and in that case maybe it is wiser to have someone knowledgeable do the work for you.


Absolutely agree! That's the key take-away out of this discussion. Well done.


@Grim
Honestly, time is no good reason when we talk about Support/RMA from manufacturers. Last mentioned takes at least the same - even more - time, compared to have your own Support/RMA department. Even many big houses have their own Support department, there if an employee has an issue with his tools, he probably wont call the manufacturer for support, no, he uses the in-house support department.

As said before: there're allways many good reasons for multible opportunities.
Try it again, Mr. Grim!

;)

[Tama]

and most folks get their wine prebuilt to keep the cost down...

[GrimPixel]

Hahahaha, you mean that not everyone home builds their Syrah? Oh man what have I been doing!! The worst part is trying to get the grapes RMA'd. Natures shipping charges are crazy!!

Grim

[cgbeige]

well getting Masi's phone support is no better :P

It's got me so angry that I'm thinking of switching to Muga Rioja for their famed caller service.

"Ok, so thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat's how you drink it."

[DanielWray]

Haven't really read the whole thread, so my post maybe slightly off-topic.

But anyway, I would always go with a custom built machine for my work, I know exactly what components are going into the machine, I know of what quality and usually when you buy parts they come with a nice manufactures guarantee in case they fail.

Now, as what to do when a part fails and you have a deadline, well I keep money back just in case for that situation, There is a very very small chance that the whole machine will break down at once, maybe one or two components but I haven't seen/ experience more than that.. Unless of course it's being thrown out of a window in anger...

Anyway, I've had to deal with customer support from the big companies and I worked tech. support for Apple UK and I know how long it can take to get stuff sorted out. At the end of the day, unless you buy a huge quantity of hardware from these companies your just another average Joe under a large pile of people needing support/ RMA's or whatever.... :p

[cgbeige]

I've been dealing with Apple for 17 years - I've never had the sort of slow response or issues that I've had with smaller companies. You can complain about their prices and the limited options but I have to defend their exceptional support. If every company would be this easy to deal with, I'd easily recommend building your own. Unfortunately, that's not the case.

[meleseDESIGN]

There is a very very small chance that the whole machine will break down at once, maybe one or two components but I haven't seen/ experience more than that.

Right, and there is a very small chance too that even one component will break down.
I have bought pre-built workstations many years ago and I never needed to use the warranty or support what comes with those pre-built. So in the End: paying a few bucks more for warranty or support was a waste of money in my past.

That's one of many good reasons why I prefer the custom built line.


;)

[Jettatore]

I've been dealing with Apple for 17 years - I've never had the sort of slow response or issues that I've had with smaller companies. You can complain about their prices and the limited options but I have to defend their exceptional support. If every company would be this easy to deal with, I'd easily recommend building your own. Unfortunately, that's not the case.

I can agree with that, but at least recognize that there are people, much like myself, who have had near the exact opposite experience.

[meleseDESIGN]

I've been dealing with Apple for 17 years - I've never had the sort of slow response or issues that I've had with smaller companies. You can complain about their prices and the limited options but I have to defend their exceptional support. If every company would be this easy to deal with, I'd easily recommend building your own. Unfortunately, that's not the case.

It seems you can complain about their quallity too if you needed to use their support so many times?! :twisted:

I know many ppl who had issues with an Mac the same as with a Win based machine.
Most of the time those issues are OS related. Unfortunately their aren't so much ppl out there who know about as good with MAC OS as with Windows, therefor you will need a special Mac support hotline. As for WiN OS, even my little brother can help me out, at least for most of the common issues.

;)

[cgbeige]

I never said that Macs are without issues (they are built with PC parts) but my point was just that Apple's support has always been great in my experience, over many years. I'm sure you could find some people who have had the opposite experience but the independent consumer reports surveys back me up.

As for there being fewer people who know how to deal with Mac problems - there are fewer hardware configurations and the drivers are mostly centralized so things are more consistent, even when they fail. OS X 10.6.3 just came out with a new GL implementation and created an issue with Maya's Graph Editor in Maya <2011 (the non-Qt ones). The problem was consistent with all cards Nvidia and ATI because there is one OpenGL implementation for both. And the simple fix was the same for both cards. The ubiquitous Maya viewport issues with Windows (dual monitor problems for example) usually have different fixes depending on OS version, brand of card and driver used. Throw in a different motherboard, BIOS, etc and you have a lot less people that can help you simply because they don't have your set-up.

and go to a Starbucks and tell me that there are fewer Macs around :p

[meleseDESIGN]

Throw in a different motherboard, BIOS, etc and you have a lot less people that can help you simply because they don't have your set-up.

It's a interesting hypothesis, but I don't think this is the real world.
And even if so, there's allways a way to find ppl with knowlege about the hardware you're using. This part of the cgtalk forum is a good example. I haven't seen here any hardware related question which couldn't be answered, but i have seen a lot Mac OS related questions which couldn't be answered. I don't know about the Apple forum, but I guess it's a good first place to find Mac OS related help too.

For most ppl, the best support is the community!

;)

[sentry66]

everyone chooses their poison. I'm building a system at home right now.

On the apple store, I can configure a dual 2.93ghz 8 core xeon system configured for $6300 that I'd have to add another $400 to get a decent video card. So $6700 in all.

Alienware offers a similar Area 51 system for $3880 that's an overclocked 6 core 3.73 ghz i7 980. It has comparable render times to the dual xeon mac and yet all your non-multiprocessor tasks would run about 27% faster for 58% what Apple is asking. Even though the'll sell it to you overclocked, it still has a 1 year warranty or add $330 for 3 years. Alienware is owned by Dell and they usually have comparable support.

Or you could build roughly the same Alienware system yourself from scratch for about $2900. It'd probably even be better than the Alienware if you know what you're doing.


apple's xeon pricing is pretty reasonable, but xeons are just stupid expensive. OSX is great, but a 72% price markup over that alienware system is hard to ignore IMO.

Apple won't sell you a i7 980 system or any of the other fast i7's that have been out for the last year and a half. Only a high end imac offers a lower end 2.8ghz i7. IMO that's apple's calculated move to get people to step into a xeon mac pro even though those customers would have bought an i7 tower system if the option was available.

starbucks and Apple were destined for each other. The companies should merge. They have pretty much everything in common.

[cgbeige]

I bet the coffee's better at Apple. :p

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