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circusboy
03-22-2010, 03:22 PM
http://money.canoe.ca/money/business/canada/archives/2010/03/20100322-103317.html

Jettatore
03-22-2010, 04:36 PM
Yay, more outsourcing (offshoring), this is exactly what we needed right now...

Hmmm. I wonder if we could tax Warner Bro.'s for this, in such a way that would deter other companies from following suite. Hmmm, that might just work. What do you think Mr. Obama, you even refered to just that in a recent speech of yours. Any chance that your not just entirely full of rhetoric?

ambient-whisper
03-22-2010, 05:10 PM
Yey, more jobs for us :D

plunq
03-22-2010, 05:47 PM
That's great news! Hopefully it doesn't go the way of Disney Toronto. Too many studios have been shutting down lately. It's good to hear more large studios setting up shop in Canada.

playmesumch00ns
03-22-2010, 06:06 PM
Interesting. In a couple of years Canada is really going to be the place to be!

frogspasm
03-22-2010, 06:14 PM
Just remember, if they stop paying you....stop working.

jipe
03-22-2010, 06:21 PM
Yay, more outsourcing (offshoring), this is exactly what we needed right now...

Hmmm. I wonder if we could tax Warner Bro.'s for this, in such a way that would deter other companies from following suite. Hmmm, that might just work. What do you think Mr. Obama, you even refered to just that in a recent speech of yours. Any chance that your not just entirely full of rhetoric?
Apparently only those of us in the United States have a right to make a living at CG? Come on now...

Jettatore
03-22-2010, 06:49 PM
Apparently only those of us in the United States have a right to make a living at CG? Come on now...

Not at all. But Warner Bro.'s is a US company, established in the early 1900's. Why can't Canada make it's own studios. That could even bring some diversity to the table.

Lets be honest about what this actually is, otherwise there is no point to discussing such things here. Time Warner just wants to cut costs and tap into Canada's government subsidies. This is all fine and well. I'm just saying, when they want to ship the finished product back to the US to be sold, that they should get taxed for it.

Zoober
03-22-2010, 07:20 PM
Not at all. But Warner Bro.'s is a US company, established in the early 1900's. Why can't Canada make it's own studios. That could even bring some diversity to the table.


We have a few studios.

http://gamedevmap.com/index.php?query=canada&Submit=Search

I would think that job creation in any locale is positive for our industry. Especially considering game sales are pretty significant worldwide, not just driven by a single market.

Jettatore
03-22-2010, 07:27 PM
Just look at Australia. The launch price of a PS3 (Japanese import) in the US was like $500 - $600 and in the land of OZ it was launched for $800 - $1,000AU (aprox $600 - $750 USD depending on the model). That's because of taxes, and that is all I'm asking for.

You can go ahead and wave the tax for products developed locally.

Zoober
03-22-2010, 07:36 PM
Just look at Australia. The launch price of a PS3 (Japanese import) in the US was like $500 - $600 and in the land of OZ it was launched for $800 - $1,000. That's because of taxes, and that is all I'm asking for.

You can go ahead and wave the tax for products developed locally.

That was $800-1000 AUD. The Australian dollar was trading at roughly 75 cents to the American dollar in late 2006. So the difference really wasn't as significant as you think.

Jettatore
03-22-2010, 07:44 PM
I still would like incentive based outsourcing and foreign imports taxed. PS3 was still hundreds of dollars more in Australia at launch even after proper conversion.

carloscidrais
03-22-2010, 07:47 PM
Most tech products are more expensive outside of the US.

Jettatore
03-22-2010, 07:53 PM
Most tech products are more expensive outside of the US.

Agreed.

Anyways, you guys/girls know where I stand, you understand where I'm coming from. I'll leave it at that. Good luck to my Northern neighbors, hope you give us a cool version of Batman (I'll gladly pay the extra import tax).

Later.

rasamaya
03-23-2010, 01:11 AM
The US and Canada have an agreement called NAFTA, I am not an expert but perhaps this falls under that agreement.
We are giving you fresh water and a guarantee of resources, for this trade(which I do not agree with)
If we do not give you our water upon agreement, the bottom line says war. It is a very serious agreement.
Fare trade, with the US is a little one sided in my opinion, as more and more American company's can exploit our cheap labour, artist and affordable overhead. This exploitation is used for an international market, the world doesnt revolve around the US. But a lot of animation companies originated there! The US figured out spacing and timing no? It would be interesting to see how much disney makes from canadian visitors, and products being sold here and movies... I would like to see that portion given to the labour force... otherwise we be milked.
Im not really complaining, just point those things out. I am happy to hear they are in town.

vlad
03-23-2010, 04:34 AM
Yay, more outsourcing (offshoring), this is exactly what we needed right now...

Hmmm. I wonder if we could tax Warner Bro.'s for this, in such a way that would deter other companies from following suite. Hmmm, that might just work. What do you think Mr. Obama, you even refered to just that in a recent speech of yours. Any chance that your not just entirely full of rhetoric?

Hmmm, wait... Are you telling there are not a single foreign company implanted in the US and employing American people?

SheepFactory
03-23-2010, 04:42 AM
Yey, more jobs for us :D


quoted for agreement :D

Jettatore
03-23-2010, 04:54 AM
"Hmmm, wait... Are you telling there are not a single foreign company implanted in the US and employing American people?"

Oh yeah, there are plenty, Vivendi is a good example of a French company operating in the US. They bought/own Activision (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=59&t=853631&highlight=activision) among many other operations, and just like every other belligerent mega-corp (US and foreign alike), are quoted on talks of outsourcing, and recently shut down several entire US studios + layoffs even from their most successful departments.

"The US and Canada have an agreement called NAFTA, I am not an expert but perhaps this falls under that agreement.
We are giving you fresh water and a guarantee of resources, for this trade(which I do not agree with)
If we do not give you our water upon agreement, the bottom line says war."

I honestly don't know much of anything about the workings of NAFTA, but if that's even remotely accurate (which wouldn't surprise me one bit at this point) it's just another disgusting example of how my country often behaves towards both foreign nations and as well it's own people. For the record, I had no say in the drafting/voting regarding NAFTA and for the most part have entirely dropped the concept that I live in a Democracy.

evolucian
03-23-2010, 04:25 PM
canadian dollar is roughly the same as the american, and soon to overpass it once bank rates go up this summer and when oil become more expensive again. Thats hardly saving any money for Warner.

What it will come down to is tax breaks. I just hope they wont do a weasel move like Discovery.

StefanA
03-23-2010, 04:40 PM
I don't get it, when US companies opens up somewhere else there are always complaints. When EU companies opens up somewhere you hear no one complaining....

(Framestore, MPC, The Mill, etc etc)

Just a reflection..

vlad
03-23-2010, 04:50 PM
Oh yeah, there are plenty, Vivendi is a good example of a French company operating in the US. They bought/own Activision (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=59&t=853631&highlight=activision) among many other operations, and just like every other belligerent mega-corp (US and foreign alike), are quoted on talks of outsourcing, and recently shut down several entire US studios + layoffs even from their most successful departments.

You point out one venture that didnt work out. What about the hundreds of others that do stay, employ people and create wealth? There are also quite a few US companies, notably in mining, that came to Canada, took advantage of subsidies, exploited resources, and then closed shop and fled, leaving workers with sometimes months of salary unpaid.

kelgy
03-23-2010, 06:25 PM
Not at all. But Warner Bro.'s is a US company, established in the early 1900's. Why can't Canada make it's own studios. That could even bring some diversity to the table.


**Ah one of my favorite topics...

Canada's strange. We subtly knock US influence and yet we suck in its culture almost 100 percent (excluding Quebec with its language factor-pretty much necessitates they make their own content).
Canadian tv started not because we wanted to do our own stuff but because we were afraid of US cultural domination so the government threw money at someone to start the Canadian Broadcasting Company. First broadcast had the titles upside down.

Canada only started its versions of HBO(in the early 80s) because it(government) didnt want to have the US dominate us. Same with our history channel, cartoon channel etc..US leads, we follow. We rarely initiate our own thing. Its more like a perfunctory service that the government mandates because it feels it has to.


Or we finance art house style films along the lines of the National Endowment for the Arts -- they tend to be things few people would pay to watch. Pretentious, silly, quirky, or exceedingly depressing. And when we try to make normal films--by ourselves--it tends to feel artificial or very run of the mill.

David Cronenberg is an exception, his films arent exactly mainstream though, and his early work was criticized in Canada (he had to go to a porn production company for financing).

Canada has had a fair run of horror exploitation films-the tax shelters of the late 70s-80s-but in pretty much every single case--one of the principle creators(writer or director) came from outside Canada.

The top grossing English Canadian film of all time is still from 1982-- Porky's--made by an American, but financed by Canada. Compare that to the top grossing domestic films of any other English speaking country and you see the weirdness.

People say we cant compete with the US culturally-but Ireland cant compete with England in size and yet it has produced writers and some films of note.
In fact, unlike Canada, it has received money from abroad for its filmmakers and writers to make their own content. Here its the opposite. Australia has also had deals with Hollywood where it received money as part of an agreement to film there to fund its own content.

That doesnt happen here. Not in English parts of the country.

With respects to cg-there is an added problem. CG lends itself to fantasy. Canada is fairly anti-fantasy in terms of domestic creation.

Why? Beats me. US has Dorothy in Oz, the UK has Alice in Wonderland, all we have is Anne of Green Gables.

I have heard it said that we cant afford to make fx type stuff-(before Cg came along this was a common excuse)-but that's not true of books-so why has Canada never had much of an output in fantasy, literature wise? There are a few science fiction authors like Robert Sawyer...but not much. And if a Canadian author like Margaret Atwood does an SF story, like a Handmaid's Tale, it usually gets set in the US (we have religious conservatives too so I dont buy the argument that it had to be set in the US-its sci fi after all).

More often we just serve as an "anywhere USA" stand in.
Most expensive BC made film Fido-was set in a US type city.

We had comic book characters during World War 2--but after that-we went back to taking in the US content-until the 70s, but then they were jokey spoofs of superheroes. We arent supposed to take fantasy seriously like other countries do(New Zealand etc).

As a consequence--in English Canada, one almost has to move to the US to get anywhere in film or literature--because there just isnt the infrastructure in place to support homegrown content unless its documentary, cartoon or comedy.

James Cameron was born here-but he himself has said he doesnt feel Canadian. I bet he wasnt watching much Canadian content tv in his youth before moving.

The very successful religious-themed "Left Behind" film series was technically Canadian due to financing from what i hear, so its not a lack of money per se.
Its a lack of initiative or motivation to make such things domestically.

Ontario and Quebec are a little or alot better than BC though.They have generated a fair bit of local content(although you still have that copycat problem--the US had LA Law, so we made Street Legal).

BC is essentially just a foreign service filming station and cg training center. Hardly any major creative decisions are made here.

And if they are-9.9999 times out of 10 the person making them was not born here.

There just seems to be a high public and government tolerance for providing services for foreign initiated cultural products and not much support for encouraging local equivalents (except when government mandated).

PS
There was one recent CBC made show Intelligence which got a fair bit of good press and was shown in the US during the writer's strike.
But the government pulled the plug on it and one of the main actors ended up selling jeans in a Vancouver denim store.
But the government here constantly talks about how good the film industry is-they mean the film service industry.

thablanchh
03-23-2010, 07:11 PM
I think Montreal potential workers in 3d/VFX feild is enormous...There is lots of schools/industries in the feild already here, lots of creative talents and great technicians. If it would be for the money savings only, they could go elsewhere where it is like 10x cheaper...

carloscidrais
03-24-2010, 05:46 PM
...and now for the million dollar question:

Is it outsourcing when Indian companies set up shop in LA?

http://www.digitalproductionme.com/article-2477-la-calling/

gregsandor
03-24-2010, 06:06 PM
Yay, more outsourcing (offshoring), this is exactly what we needed right now...

Hmmm. I wonder if we could tax Warner Bro.'s for this, in such a way that would deter other companies from following suite. Hmmm, that might just work. What do you think Mr. Obama, you even refered to just that in a recent speech of yours. Any chance that your not just entirely full of rhetoric?

Canada is not "offshore" from the U.S. We are all on the same continent.

The tax you propose is exactly why so many companies move.

playmesumch00ns
03-24-2010, 06:55 PM
...and now for the million dollar question:

Is it outsourcing when Indian companies set up shop in LA?

http://www.digitalproductionme.com/article-2477-la-calling/

I would imagine that's just going to be a shop window and most of the work will be done in India.

carloscidrais
03-24-2010, 10:41 PM
"Focussed on wanting to concentrate on the 3D animation and visual effects space, VCL knew that it had to invest in people who were well-established and had a strong credibility in the US market. This led them to establish a core team comprising of three Hollywood heavy weights - Joel Hynek as sr VFX Supervisor, Tricia Ashford to head the production and Treva Blue to handle the trailers segment of the facility (see box p20). VCL opened their production office in the heart of the Hollywood market – Los Angeles. Situated in Santa Monica, in a 4,000 sq feet premise with an infrastructure for a 45 member team, the office has been operational since Dec 07, 2009. The business model operates on artists hired on a freelance basis as per project requirements in the US, with significant economies for clients to be achieved via sharing of work between VCL’s Mumbai and US facilities."

This could all be corporate-speak, for all I know, and it could just be a shop window as you said. But to me it looks like a decent sized shop, that will leverage their existing capacity in India.

I don't care either way, seeing as I am not in California, but in London - outsourcing capital of the world. :deal:

But I am curious on what artists in California make of the news.

I would imagine they don't mind the 45 jobs being created...

Jettatore
03-25-2010, 07:37 AM
Canada is not "offshore" from the U.S. We are all on the same continent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offshoring
Yes we are on the same continent and you are technically correct on a semantics level. However, by definition, "Offshoring describes the relocation by a company of a business process from one country to another"

"The tax you propose is exactly why so many companies move."
No, it's actually the exact opposite. They move because there is no tax for doing so There is no penalty currently to importing a foreign product, or outsourcing a portion of production, so why wouldn't local companies consider moving shop?? This is exactly why we need a tax, so that rather than just lowering our salaries, we functionally raise the costs of offshored/outsourced shops who want access to the US customer, and if they remain successful despite the tax at least our Government is getting funded which will allow us capital to offer further tax breaks to local industry..

carloscidrais
03-25-2010, 09:58 AM
Jettatore,

While I have no MBA, it would make sense to me that other governments would tax american products ( made in the US ) exactly the same way, were the US to enforce what you describe.

Since the film and videogame industries are global industries; the product is distributed worldwide, and not only that, but most of the revenue is generated in foreign markets, don't you think that tax you propose is equal to shooting yourself in the foot ( from the POV of american business - NOT the american workers )?

Jettatore
03-25-2010, 10:52 AM
"it would make sense to me that other governments would tax american products"

That is entirely accurate and correct. Some already do just that and it's not a problem in those instances. And you know, there's nothing wrong with that, it's fair on all levels.

"most of the revenue is generated in foreign markets"

That is highly in-accurate. The US alone accounts for roughly 1/3rd of all video game hardware and software sales world-wide. If you extend this notion into Hollywood movies, your looking at about the same 1/3rd or better ratio depending on the film, however to further complicate things, studio revenue generated from foreign box office releases are significantly lower than the same movie being distributed locally, that is just the nature of Hollywood's foreign distribution percentages.

But back to the point. It would be fantastic, even if US exports were taxed by foreign nations. We can still compete in that environment, and we'd be bringing money into our country. The way it's going right now, is that the money is being exported along with the jobs, which will have a disastrous long term effect on our economy that most short sighted leaders don't seem to want to deal with at the moment. If that is too complicated to understand let me re-phrase it. If another country (or an outsourced/offshored job) sells us something then there is money leaving our country in the transaction. It might be making one guy here more money than he personally would have made otherwise because he's cutting corners, but money is leaving the country. If the work is done here and sold here, than money is just revolving around but staying with-in the country. If we sell a product made here to another country, we bring new value and money into our system.

carloscidrais
03-25-2010, 11:05 AM
"That is highly in-accurate. The US alone accounts for roughly 1/3rd of all video game hardware and software sales world-wide. If you extend this notion into Hollywood movies, your looking at about the same 1/3rd or better ratio depending on the film, however to further complicate things, studio revenue generated from foreign box office releases are significantly lower than the same movie being distributed locally, that is just the nature of Hollywood's foreign distribution percentages."

There is a contradiction in your statements:

If the US accounts for only 1/3 of video game hardware and software sales + 1/3 or better ratio for film, as you admit, then as I said ""most of the revenue is generated in foreign markets"".

2/3 > 1/3

However, I don't wish to further arguments based on thin air, and as such, I think it would be fruitful to continue this discussion only when we can produce actual figures for hardware, software, video game and film revenues ( along with the actual Hollywood's foreign distribution percentages), by country.

Otherwise we are just talking out of our own respective behinds.

It's helpful to look at the actual numbers when we are trying to grasp the big picture.

Cheers

Jettatore
03-25-2010, 11:22 AM
I understand the semantics of 1/3rd. And I did contradict myself. Suffice it to say 1/3rd of the entire industry is purchased in the United States alone. The rest of it is divided quite un-evenly throughout every other country on the map.

http://www.vgchartz.com/
http://boxofficemojo.com/

^a good place to start if you want actual figures.

RDMNeps
03-25-2010, 11:52 AM
I somehow doubt it would be cheaper to do business in Quebec, especially with the CDN$ being at parity...I am in the process of moving back here full-time myself.

No, they are probably coming because of the high # of circus people/artists/coders/dreamers kicking around looking for something to do. Maybe make something interesting and artistic instead of bland and predictable.

Creating jobs anywhere is a GOOD thing in general, I think.

Jettatore
03-25-2010, 12:04 PM
There is a difference between creating jobs, and shifting jobs.

"No, they are probably coming because of the high # of circus people/artists/coders/dreamers kicking around looking for something to do. Maybe make something interesting and artistic instead of bland and predictable."

In that case, you should take a look at NYC. We have the same lot of circus people/artists/coders/dreamers kicking around looking for something to do, yet studios here are cutting back/closing. So I would suggest highly that cost indeed does have something to do with it.

carloscidrais
03-25-2010, 12:19 PM
Irrespective of business practices, and reasons for businesses closing or setting up shop elsewhere, what's the big deal in following the job trail and moving to wherever the jobs are?

I've done it before and it wasn't the first or the last time, I'm pretty sure of that.

Americans don't even have a language barrier, as most studios, even in non English speaking countries, have an english speaking policy at the office.

I've also noticed a big influx of americans in London's Soho, this past year.

Jettatore
03-25-2010, 12:38 PM
Simple. I don't want money bleeding out of my country (which is what you are suggesting I should accept).

Listen, it's been fun. And really, for my part of the discussion, I'm just hoping that US voters (there are a few of you lurking around here) know what to look for and demand when election time comes around.

carloscidrais
03-25-2010, 12:46 PM
I'm not suggesting anything, I was asking why you and other american artists, think moving countries for jobs is such a big deal.

Yours is a fair answer, which I can perfectly understand.

However, I would nuance it with the arguments I have made before - ours is a global business and there is more money being made outside of the US than within the US ( irrespective of the US being the biggest single consumer market...at the moment ), therefore what has happened will continue to happen, unless free trade ( not just for our area ) is rethought.

Personally, I can see your point as I would like nothing more than to be able to go back to my home country and build a life there. However, I must follow the jobs wherever they are. I have accepted and made peace with that aspect of life as a CG artist - it's not a personal preference, but something that comes with the job.

Jettatore
03-25-2010, 12:52 PM
Duly noted. It was a pleasure talking with you. Good luck.

meleseDESIGN
03-31-2010, 12:21 AM
I like Canada and i like the USA.
But why don´t they setting up a Studio in Germany?
4.000.000 unemployee of 84.000.000 peoples need jobs here too!

;)

pix3lm0nk
03-31-2010, 12:50 AM
I like Canada and i like the USA.
But why don´t they setting up a Studio in Germany?
4.000.000 unemployee of 84.000.000 peoples need jobs here too!

;)

how many of those 4,000,000 unemployed are talented artists? The same could be said for any large country with a large unemployment rate. It's not as simple as saying "go to where there are unemployed people". Talent has to be a factor, or at least, hire people dirt cheap and train them dirt cheap and see what happens, like some studios have done. :\

FKMaster
03-31-2010, 12:51 AM
I like Canada and i like the USA.
But why don´t they setting up a Studio in Germany?
4.000.000 unemployee of 84.000.000 peoples need jobs here too!

;)

maybe because of the insane tax laws and insane tax rates ! ;)

meleseDESIGN
03-31-2010, 01:17 AM
It's not like we wouldn't know how to re-invest the TAX income future-oriented.
Even with higher tax laws and tax rates a company like this can still make good profits.
TAX shouldn´t be determining for any company in the ballpark!

;)


maybe because of the insane tax laws and insane tax rates ! ;)

hanskloss
03-31-2010, 01:35 AM
Not at all. But Warner Bro.'s is a US company, established in the early 1900's. Why can't Canada make it's own studios. That could even bring some diversity to the table.

Lets be honest about what this actually is, otherwise there is no point to discussing such things here. Time Warner just wants to cut costs and tap into Canada's government subsidies. This is all fine and well. I'm just saying, when they want to ship the finished product back to the US to be sold, that they should get taxed for it.

Dude are you serious? Do yo understand the meaning of the word "globalization"? They can set up operations wherever they feel like and you can bitch about it all you want. Its called free market economics. You make your business where it is cheaper. Plain and simple. If the Canadian government gives them tax breaks so be it. Apparently the US government doesn't give a rats behind about the state of the US economy. Obama will decide which jobs are worth more than others by subsidizing jobs that in a long run make no sense let alone profits. Don't hate on the company or the Canadian government, hate on Obama and the current Congress for not holding on to what's important to the US economy. :argh:

rakmaya
03-31-2010, 02:15 AM
Dude are you serious? Do yo understand the meaning of the word "globalization"? They can set up operations wherever they feel like and you can bitch about it all you want. Its called free market economics. You make your business where it is cheaper. Plain and simple. If the Canadian government gives them tax breaks so be it. Apparently the US government doesn't give a rats behind about the state of the US economy. Obama will decide which jobs are worth more than others by subsidizing jobs that in a long run make no sense let alone profits. Don't hate on the company or the Canadian government, hate on Obama and the current Congress for not holding on to what's important to the US economy. :argh:

There is a big problem with that statement. Before Obama administration took place (during Clinton and Bush) out sourcing was peeking. CG world has just started to see its effect. Also, outsourcing issue in CG world doesn't make much impact compared to textiles, manufacturing and software development. Those happened over the past 2 decades and gov is just looking at it now seriously. Unemployment in CG industry is nothing compared to other sectors in US. The other sectors where on the downhill for the past 2 decades.

The problem is Americans themselves. When democrats are in power, republicans and voters criticize the congress. When republicans are in power, democrats and voters does the same. Unfortunately no one is ever interested in solving the real problem.

FYI I don't think there is anything wrong with what WB is doing. We are in a competition and one who provides the better hand will be favored by business. It applies to national and global businesses.

Jettatore
03-31-2010, 02:47 AM
I'll quote myself.

"They move because there is no tax for doing so There is no penalty currently to importing a foreign product, or outsourcing a portion of production, so why wouldn't local companies consider moving shop??"

And then add this, because the first wave of the outsourcing tax is likely coming in the very near future. There were rumblings of it in '09 and a recent mention of it in a speech about a month or so ago. There's even a bill that isn't entirely public that is kicking around in Congress, but it's been too slow for my liking, with this healthcare taking center stage. I would have done this first, before health-care. Regardless, it's coming.

http://www.share-economy.org/companies/job-policies/obamas-outsourcing-policy.html
http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/blog/eyeonasia/archives/2009/05/obama_vs_outsou.html

And you can find plenty other links like it if you tap Google.

ThE_JacO
03-31-2010, 03:04 AM
Guys, this is a news thread in CGnews, not one about outsourcing and the mandated semantics of discussing such a topic in GD. In short: drop it already, please :)

meleseDESIGN
03-31-2010, 03:11 AM
What do you think would be if their were no rules at all in the market economy?
Actually I don't like the term "free market economics", but I like the term "social market economy".

;)




Its called free market economics.

notjeff
04-05-2010, 04:16 AM
US- Canada, next Canada to India and china.

Cost is much cheaper there. Its as simple as that. There will be enough talented artists there.

Same thing happened in Arch Viz, its coming for everything else.

hanskloss
04-05-2010, 12:14 PM
What do you think would be if their were no rules at all in the market economy?
Actually I don't like the term "free market economics", but I like the term "social market economy".

;)

Not sure, but I'm sure whatever type of economic structure we have isn't working. Governments shouldn't have the monopoly to decide how to structure the markets, money and taxation. Take away all government regulations and market competition kicks inn full gear. True market competition happens only when there are no incentives from the government. It drives real competition and efficiency as well as creativity fueled by returns. Current economic system we see in western Europe and North America can't be called free market economics because it doesn't fit the definition. Anyways. :)

meleseDESIGN
04-05-2010, 03:56 PM
The finance crises wasn't cause by governments.
Those things happen only if there is no regulation at all.
Someone has to take care of the market structure and if needed they also must be able to decide important regulations - ONLY there where the "free market economics" don't work well. If it wasn't we would have had a bigger monopoly by the economy as it is right now allready.

Economy shouldn't have the monopoly to decide how to structure the markets, money and taxation neither, because it wont work well for most in the society!

;)


Not sure, but I'm sure whatever type of economic structure we have isn't working. Governments shouldn't have the monopoly to decide how to structure the markets, money and taxation. Take away all government regulations and market competition kicks inn full gear. True market competition happens only when there are no incentives from the government. It drives real competition and efficiency as well as creativity fueled by returns. Current economic system we see in western Europe and North America can't be called free market economics because it doesn't fit the definition. Anyways. :)

hanskloss
04-05-2010, 04:45 PM
The finance crises wasn't cause by governments.
;)

Interesting line of thought, but very wrong. The financial crisis was very much started by the governments which manipulated interest rates to artificially low levels in order to prop up the banking sector which in turn created the housing bubble by virtually "giving away" billions of dollars for home purchases, construction etc. Low interest rates create what's called a moral hazard. By lowering interest rates businesses invest money in normally risky transactions and business practices knowing that the costs and risks of such practices are far lower than before. Bubbles caused by artificial interest rates created by Federal Banks are the primary cause of business cycles and recessions/depressions. Can't school me there sport since economics was my secondary degree. Ever heard of a Nobel Prize winning economist F.A.Hayek?
Stop drinking the Keynes cool aid everyone is being fed by the mass media.

Economy shouldn't have the monopoly to decide how to structure the markets, money and taxation neither, because it wont work well for most in the society!
;)

Economy doesn't have a monopoly, it doesn't breathe, it doesn't decide. It simply is. The government does. The markets SHOULD structure themselves. It's the consumer who ultimately decides what to buy at what prices, not the government! As far as money it should not be created by the Federal Bank. If it absolutely has to, it needs to be backed by a precious commodity in order to stabilize its value. Just because the Central Bank says that a given currency is worth so much doesn't mean anything. There needs to be a valid proof.
Did you know that there was no Federal tax until the mid 1800's?? The US economy and the country in general was in great shape. All hell broke loose when the first Central Bank was introduced. Anyways....

This is a CG forum why are we talking about economics?!?:) LOL

meleseDESIGN
04-05-2010, 09:26 PM
I allways thought economy was introduced by money/power-mad humans.
Why do we actually vote a party again?

It really would be great if we don't need business analyst, government commercial departments, trade convention or cash injections for recovery of the economy ect.

But all this - and more - is essential for a healthy free/social market economy.
You, since you have a second degree in economics, should rather know all this much better.

;)

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