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Rei Ayanami
09-05-2003, 02:13 PM
heya ppl.

i need to get a 6 CPU motherboard, either AMD Althon XP or Intel Xeon. At the moment i am not stuck firm on either type. Anyway i need to know where you get these from, as i can only find dual CPU boards, yet i know higher ones exist. Price is not an issue at the moment either.

Thnx very much ^_^

MattClary
09-05-2003, 03:47 PM
I'm glad price isn't an issue, because it AIN'T gonna be cheap. You sure you want to do that? You realize those boards probably won't even fit in a normal case or use a normal power supply, right? I can't answer your question directly, but have you searched on Google?

Emberghost
09-05-2003, 03:49 PM
As well as you would need a very nice cooling solution in that case because with 6 processors it would get pretty hot.

GregHess
09-05-2003, 04:15 PM
You'll have to drop down to four cpu's.

A 4 cpu+ system is truely a super niche market. If you can even find one, you'll be easily paying well over 10,000 USD for one. At those prices you could build an entire cpu render farm on a 2U rack.

I guess the more important question is...why do you need a quad or higher cpu system?

Quad's are extremely ineffecient. Their bandwidth starved, usually run at slower speeds (both buswise and ramwise) then dual or single proc systems, and many applications don't make very good use of the additional 2 cpu's.

Their also EXTREMELY expensive. You could easily build 2-6 (depending on configuration) super fast duals for the same price.

Gotta go.

JDex
09-05-2003, 04:17 PM
I have seen a Tyan 4cpu Model for MP's... I think it was onlt in the $600 range...

MadMax
09-05-2003, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by JDex
I have seen a Tyan 4cpu Model for MP's... I think it was onlt in the $600 range...

heh heh, not likely.

Tyan's dual boards run in the 500.00 price range.

MCronin
09-05-2003, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by GregHess
Their also EXTREMELY expensive. You could easily build 2-6 (depending on configuration) super fast duals for the same price.


He could build alot more than that. Fully outfitted 8 way servers cost upwards of 70,000 dollars. I don't think they actually make 8-way boards for Xeons. All I've seen are pairs of 4-way boards that are bridged. Just the bare bones 8-way server with no cpus, memory or storage can run 30K easily. For that ammount of money you could get 5 very nice Dual Xeon 1u servers thown into a rack.

Srek
09-05-2003, 05:57 PM
Hi,
sorry, i have never seen quad or more CPU Mainboards for sale as single components. Since those boards usualy don't fit standard enclosures, power supplies and sometimes RAM specifications, chances are high that you wouldn't be able to make one work even if you were able to lay your hands on it.

Cheers
Srek

Sieb
09-05-2003, 06:04 PM
AFAIK, MPs are dual chips only (not to mention far outdated now). the 400 and 800 series Opterons are still a ways off. Xeons are usually configured at most, as quads. Most arrangements are either 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64.... The only chip I know that you can buy 6way are Itaniums. Anything past quad, and your looking at special integration type servers (enterprise class SQL servers). If you absolutely need something like that, look into IBMs blade servers, they run all OSs. Otherwise, cluster some dual 1u Xeons or MPs (or Opterons).

Joel Hooks
09-05-2003, 06:19 PM
You could run the Beowulf cluster!!1!

MadMax
09-05-2003, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by Sieb
AFAIK, MPs are dual chips only (not to mention far outdated now). the 400 and 800 series Opterons are still a ways off.


No they are not.

Quads have been available for a couple of months already. Not sure about 8 ways yet, but 4's are definitely available.

elvis
09-06-2003, 04:09 AM
dell and HP both sell 8-way xeon servers that can be configured to have from 1 to 8 CPUs. i'm not sure about HP, but you can configure and order one direct off the dell website.

as others have mentioned, you'll get a much better price to performance ratio out of several 2-way machines over a single 6-way.

8-way servers are usually designed for massive database systems and high-end e-commerce style web and application servers. a small renderfarm will work out cheaper and more upgradable than a single 8-way system.

Rei Ayanami
09-06-2003, 09:03 AM
Ok, buy the sounds of it, ill have to get a 4 CPU board instead. The reason price is not an issue is that i dont plan to get it right now, i need to know the size because i am building a 3U case with PS and cooling built in for my A2 (final year) project for DT at school. I would also be thankfull if you knew any cases that fit mobo's this size anyway.

Thnx for the info then, very helpfull ^_^

GregHess
09-06-2003, 01:57 PM
Not to be annoying but....

To put it simply.

Two Dual CPU systems are significantly faster then a Single Quad CPU system.

Depending on what app your using...The extra two processors in the Quad might just sit around twidling their thumbs. (3dsmax for example is horrible scalar when it comes to more then 2 cpu's...the second set of cpu's only increases rendering performance about 30-40%)

You could easily build two dual cpu systems and netrender for well under 2k (if you went with MP's)...a single quad would cost over 5x that. (Heck you can even use DR now on a single frame with multiple networked machines)

I just know people with quad's who were horribly disappointed with them. It's cool to say "ooh I've got a quad" but its really not that useful from a single user standpoint.

Two systems allow both increased reliability (if one goes down you still have a system), cheaper upgrades, faster speeds, and greater usability in multiple applications.

Remember that certain functions within the applications are still single threaded. Like opengl for instance. So with a 30,000 Quad cpu system...if you were rotating a model in the viewport...only cpu1 would be in use. Same thing with certain stages of default render pipelines.

Rei Ayanami
09-06-2003, 02:47 PM
Hey. The app I use has good support for multiple cpu's on the rendering pipleine (and it needs it ^_^). when you say

--So with a 30,000 Quad cpu system--

I guess you mean $$$, i have done research allready, and i can get the Motherboard for $1.5k, with the RAM cards (have to have 4+) at $300 each. Xeon 2.8Ghz (FSB 400MHz) at around $300 each too. Everything else i allready have spares etc. This is a total of $3.9K allready. Another $1K for a Geforce Quadro FX (probably 2000, not 3000) which finalizes it and you have a Quad system for 5 thousand dollars, or for me 3.1k GPB. The whole point is that i build the case myself, so that doesnt cost anything. I need to know the PSU it needs, and how much that costs (supermicro are un-helpful). even so its hardly over 10k and no where near 30k.

Did i mention that the board takes up to 32GB of RAM (DIMM 200 ECC DDR) too.

Also the benifits are arbitry, i just need to know about them so i can have good research on my project.

GregHess
09-06-2003, 03:38 PM
You know what...you seem to know what your talking about. Obviously your well in the know.

Enjoy your quad cpu purchase. The humor of this thread is increasing expodentially :).

Just remember. DP is not MP.

Rei Ayanami
09-06-2003, 04:23 PM
http://www.supermicro.com/PRODUCT/MotherBoards/GC_HE/P4QH6.htm <- planned board.

Are you serious? i am normally used to sarcasam on a high level, so i never get it when normal people type anymore.

--Just remember. DP is not MP.--

whothewhatnow?

Amyd
09-06-2003, 04:34 PM
He means Xeon processesors come in two sorts, roughly speaking, DP - from Dual processor and MP - from Multi Processor.

Now take a guess which one you need for 4-6 proc setups? 4>2, ergo MP. Supermicro agrees, as you can see from the requirements of your board:

" - Quad, dual or single Intel® Xeon™ Processors MP up to 2.8GHz"

Now as usual, the MP variant is way more expensive than the DP version, so you'll need to adjust your math a bit:

One Xeon MP 2.8 Ghz with 2MB cache is a cool ~$3700, list price for 1000 quantities.

Not to mention that I would never ever in my life build any system over 2 CPUs by myself...

Cheers,
Andrei

parallax
09-06-2003, 06:31 PM
While we're on the subject of duals and quads:

We need a dual centrino platform.
That would kick some serious butt, AND save power.
Would this even be possible? If so, are people working on it?

I've read about a company producing a desktop centrino mainboard..

gmask
09-06-2003, 06:45 PM
>>>Another $1K for a Geforce Quadro FX (probably 2000, not 3000) which finalizes it and you have a Quad system for 5 thousand dollars, or for me 3.1k GPB.

I noticed that the P4QH6 does not have an AGP slot and I think one is required to use a Quadro FX card.

Rei Ayanami
09-06-2003, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by gmask
I noticed that the P4QH6 does not have an AGP slot and I think one is required to use a Quadro FX card.

yeah i noticed that too, it has onboard ATI Rage XL, which i havent heard of, so i dont know if its good or not. i guess its not going to be, the board is designed for databases. altough it has 6 PCI's with onboard ethernet leaving me free to run 2x PCI grapics and link em together!

Amyd - thanx for pointing that out, it can run with just 1, 2 or 4 so i can just get 1 untill my back gets back up!. and what u mean, u not build a MP system. pu55y!!

Srek
09-06-2003, 08:07 PM
Hi,
sorry, but it sounds as if you don't realy know what you are doing here.
First of all the Mainboard you mentioned is created and optimized for applications like databases and webserver which can realy take advantage of that many processors to handle several thousands of connections and queries simultaniously.
The ATI Rage XL is maybe THE most unusable card for 3D applications but completely sufficent to run a server with it.
What OS are you planning to use? Linux only supports 4 GB and Windows only 2 GB. What use are 32 GB of RAM if you haven't got the specificaly adjusted software that can make use of it?
Last not least what do you want to do with a system like this?
Since the editor in all the common 3D apps makes little use of multithreading the many CPUs won't give you more power in the editor then a dual system. If you have big jobs to render a render farm with the same render power is defnitly cheaper then this monster system.
All in all it sounds more like an ego trip then a solution to a problem.
If it is simply the biggest, fastest system you are after, regardless its practical value, then go for it, but don't be dissapointed if it turns out you wasted a whole lot of money.

I hope you don't mind the open words.
Cheers
Srek

Rei Ayanami
09-06-2003, 08:43 PM
I wanted to know how big motherboards got, because i want to make a case for a large OTT motherboard for my Design Technology project in school. Im a student, how the hell am i going to get the money to buy all this stuff?

JDex
09-06-2003, 08:48 PM
Kidnap/Hostage Scenario... lol

Rei!!! and here we all thought that money was no object!!!

I was looking forward to hearing about how lightening fast this super system was.

Rei Ayanami
09-06-2003, 08:51 PM
Originally posted by JDex
Rei!!! and here we all thought that money was no object!!!

it still isnt, i want to hear about more OTT specs anyway.

ZrO-1
09-07-2003, 07:30 AM
Here is a picture to give you an idea of the size of a SWTX motherboard in comparison to other more standard sizes:
http://iris.nyit.edu/~mgilbert/form_factor.gif

As you can see, this size mobo is freaking huge. LOL

elvis
09-07-2003, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by gmask
>>>Another $1K for a Geforce Quadro FX (probably 2000, not 3000) which finalizes it and you have a Quad system for 5 thousand dollars, or for me 3.1k GPB.

I noticed that the P4QH6 does not have an AGP slot and I think one is required to use a Quadro FX card.

once again folks: quad CPU systems (and greater CPU numbers) are not designed as workstation boxes, period. these are designed for large server applications where literally millions of tasks need to be done every second. typically these are related to high-end database systems only.

you WILL NOT find a quad CPU board with AGP. i can garantee it. search yourself stupid if you like, there is nothing like that in the intel/x86 arena. the whole point (once again for those who don't want to listen) is that quad CPU boards ARE NOT WORKSTATION BOARDS.

take your budget, and spec a few dual-processor machines with low-end graphics and disk for a renderfarm, and machine with high-end graphics and disk as your main workstation. you'll get a much better price to performance ratio out of that than you will a quad system.

FreeQ
09-08-2003, 07:40 PM
Has anyone did a notice to official announcement or convincing 'talks' about PCI-X QuadroFX or FireGL board releases before end of year? AFAIK 3DLabs mades one of that. But it's 3D labs, you know ;-]

Thanks.

Amyd
09-08-2003, 07:48 PM
That would be pretty surprising, given PCI-X is on the way out (though there is a new PCI-X 2.0 specification released...).

Maybe you mean the new cards will be for PCI Express (http://www.intel.com/technology/pciexpress/), which is the new bus standard replacing both AGP and PCI (in every form), supposedly coming to the masses next year. That's probably a good way to get a workstation-class graphics adapter on such a server board - for sure they will be among the first to have PCI Express slots.

I believe both nVidia and ATI have signed up for PCI Express Design Validation procedures, so that could be a sign they want to release such cards. How soon, I have no idea.

Cheers,
Andrei

Rei Ayanami
09-10-2003, 09:23 AM
of course, if i wanted to go totally OTT i could get one of these:

http://www.sgi.com/workstations/tezro

but then, who likes SGI then?

Aearon
09-10-2003, 10:44 AM
btw guys, amd just announced their 846 Operon, might be interesting. especially if you want to burn some cash. :)

MaDSheeP
09-10-2003, 01:23 PM
Rendercube.com

=)

Lod_Dan
09-11-2003, 12:05 PM
This is just a suggestion take it how you will but, I would think that a better DT project would be to instead design a case to fit 2 dual motherboards in it, you still get the 4 cpu's and i imagine a much greater performance increase, of course you would have to pay more to get 2 video cards but the cheaper motherboard's cpu's and ram might actualy make it a cheaper project for a greater benefit and i know when i did my dt project they liked that kind of thinking you could discuss why you decided on this rather than your original plan of a 6cpu system, Anyway i dont know how far along you are on your project and infact i could be completely wrong about some of my info i have no experience in anything greater than dual cpu systems :).

elvis
09-11-2003, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by Lod_Dan
This is just a suggestion take it how you will but, I would think that a better DT project would be to instead design a case to fit 2 dual motherboards in it

aka "half rendercube". :)

Rei Ayanami
09-11-2003, 01:26 PM
I am not acctually buying any of the components, i soo! cant afford too (over 6k) but making it for a database server has more clients, and is more feasable than making a graphics workstation.

Lod_Dan
09-11-2003, 01:45 PM
Sure :) i just figured it was for a graphical workstation type pc since we are on cgtalk.com :P.
Anyway what where you thinking of making the case out of, my friend built a case this year for a dt project, he made it out of fibreglass its quite heavy but its a really great case (made it for overclocking or something) has about 20fans and water cooling.

Rei Ayanami
09-12-2003, 11:30 PM
Acctually im going for the Graphics end now, i found enough to make it feasable with my school, BoXX, SGI and rendercube is what im thinking of.

making it out of Alu. although i spoke to some people, and they want it as thin as possible (les than 1U) which is nigh on imposible with my budget, the current technology and liquid cooling.

pseudoE
11-24-2004, 08:41 PM
once again folks: quad CPU systems (and greater CPU numbers) are not designed as workstation boxes, period. these are designed for large server applications where literally millions of tasks need to be done every second. typically these are related to high-end database systems only.

you WILL NOT find a quad CPU board with AGP. i can garantee it. search yourself stupid if you like, there is nothing like that in the intel/x86 arena. the whole point (once again for those who don't want to listen) is that quad CPU boards ARE NOT WORKSTATION BOARDS.

take your budget, and spec a few dual-processor machines with low-end graphics and disk for a renderfarm, and machine with high-end graphics and disk as your main workstation. you'll get a much better price to performance ratio out of that than you will a quad system.

So not to beat a dead horse, but I went searching for this thread today because there's a new render engine that's exuding hype at the moment that claims to use as many procs as you can throw at it, and give you 100% decrease in rendertimes:

- Multiprocessor

Maxwell can exploit all of the processors available on your system and can make the work

simultaneously on the same render to provide faster renders. For example, on a

multiprocessing platform with 8 processors a user can expect up to an eightfold increase in

render performance/speed.

taken from the tech page of http://www.maxwellrender.com

Looks like rendercube is a good candidate?

e.

gmask
11-24-2004, 08:52 PM
Maxwell can exploit all of the processors available on your system and can make the work








Well this is sort of OT but it's not the only renderer that can use as many procs as you got..

Too bad they don't post some render times with the images in the gallery.

Cost wise it needs to be fast if you only get two procs for nearly a grand.

Anyway it may or may not be cost effective to render on one system with 8 procs versus 4 with two procs.. the motherboards for 8 way systems are usually astronomically expensive.. also for workstations I dunno if any board that supports more than two procs has come out that supports AGP.

splintah
11-25-2004, 11:06 AM
what programms do you want to use ?

thats the most important question

i highly doubt getting a 4cpu system would make any sense
especially if you think about the price/performance ratio

the best price performance/ratio for ordinary modelling animation rendering work would be

one or more of these as rendernodes

tyan mp mobo - 70 euro
2x athlon moblie 2600+ 90 euros each
1 or 2 gig reg ddr ram 120-240 euro

and one workmachine you can build that one based on your old machine
i guess you do not even need a dual for modelling and animation
since i cant remember a benchmark where duals are faster in the creation process

splintah
11-25-2004, 11:17 AM
man that rendercube is cool

i really like the idea

do you think you can get the case only ?

log0n
11-26-2004, 07:35 PM
You could run the Beowulf cluster!!1!

:applause:

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