Working for free??? --- Advice to rookies looking to make a break in the industry.

[hmc4me]

HI Jean

I could not agree more. I have run into many people who try and take advantage of you just because they can.

BUT and yes there is a BUT

Do not confuse those people with someone who offers you a chance to expand yourself.

I recently took on a small project I saw posted here on the board. I know there might not be any money in it but I will get something out of it far greater than money. I took this project not to make money or to be seen but to expand my skills in a working environment. As a rookie it is hard to find teams that will allow you to work with them just for the experience. Most of them expect a great deal of knowledge that you can not possibly get without working in an environment with others.

So next time you see a "free help wanted" sign don't just pass it over. Sometime a small nonpaying project can offer you a lot more than cold hard cash. Like the chance to work in a team. Because it does not matter how good your skills are if you can't work with others then there's not much hope for you.

But always be careful and don't feel bad about backing out of a nonpaying project if it will not help you expand your self and your skills.

[E_Moelzer]

Hello Jean Eric
Beleve it or not, but even our company was adressed by some "customers" who wanted us to do something for free.
The reasons they came up with were pretty the same: "incredible project for your marketing", "you make this and we sell it and if we happen to find someone who buys it we will give you 50%", etc, etc...
My advice is to stay away from things like these.
There is nothing to say against a good hobby- project though. If someone asks you to participate without making any promises he wont be able to fullfill, one can think about participating just for fun.
CU
Elmar

[alx]

Jean

Thanks for that post, it raised a question about
something that happened to me.
I just graduated from Computer Animation here in Miami,
but anyway, as i was finishing i decided to take an
internship and got it in two places. One payed me
on an hourly rate while the other one din't pay me,
but i took the internship mainly for the experience.
Anyway, i had agreed with this last company to
give them an animated logo for their company and
the design for their bussiness cards, wich i did.

But they also asked me to do logos for some of
their clients.
I gladly did the logos because i love Cg but they never
payed me and they had a really narrow deadline for
what they were asking.

So i guess that my question is... Was i being used?.....
or is that the way to get people in the industry
(where you live) to get to know you?
or in other words "to get your name out there"

I guess im just really new and naive at the market
part of computer animation.

:)
Sincerely
alx

[Nando]

Business is Business, if folks can get you to do things for free then they will.
Dont expect that one day they will say Daaaaaym he/she is good lets pay them, Escpecially if they are doing the work for free.
Theres alot of So called studios always looking for the Interns that will break there back freely, Ive seen a some on sites like Vfxpro.com and most interns will tell ya working for free is no fun.
This trend should definaltey be stopped before it gets out of hand.

[threedg]

Help with this theoretical situation (if it's off-topic resond privately):

I'm an independent film maker using CGI to create productions.

The goal is to take the product and get it distributed. There is no budget. This is one step above a "hobby" project and one step below a "commercial prodcution". I'm getting zero income myself from this endeavor as opposed to running a cash positive business and looking for cheap labor.

So, I need CGI talent to get it realized. How does one ask for that without exploiting anyone but sincerely searching for people willing to risk (all investments are risks) their talents and skills for a product? Given that they would be provided full information up front (with non-disclosure agreements) to assist in determining their level of risk before signing on.

Thanks for your input.
-DG

[Phigi]

I think if you're making a low (no) budget film and are seeking cg artists, it is your duty to let them know that there is nothing upfront they can get in return.

But if you feel, and the artist(s) feel that something might become of this product, then you need to negotiate a 'back-end' deal in writing. Back-end deals could include money... be it a certain amount or points/percentage of the total income from the product. Or maybe taking your hot sister out on a date... whatever.

The point is, asking for unpaid talent is fine. But both party needs to agree to it, and you should GET IT IN WRITING.

Good luck.

[mogwai]

I agree that working for free (with careful consideration of what you get out of the experience), can help rookies get into the field. However, I'd like to add that it is dangerous to the field as a whole to work for free or to drastically undercut the competition just to get work. I feel strongly that as experts in a field we have to protect the value of our skills.

My rationale is long and maybe a bit of a rant, but hear's why I feel this way:

I am currently taking a computer animation course, because I want to leave the field of architecture and get into CG. One of my reasons for the change is that I no longer feel that the field of architecture is in a healthy state.

It is a popular misconception that architects are wealthy. Only the owners of a firm do well. These days, architects work long hours and are not properly compensated for their time and expertise. This is because of a lot of undercutting during the recession of the early nineties. The undercutting got so bad that some architects practically paid to work because they were so desperate. However, after the economy recovered architect's fees did not necessarily follow suit. This was because of new expectations from their clients with respect to fees and deadlines. Some clients, particularly residential developers know how desperate architects still are for work and will commonly threat to take their business elsewhere if they can't get cheaper fees and tighter deadlines. This of course leads to poorer quality buildings and deterioration of the field as a whole.

Additionally, Some CG friends of mine hate doing work for architects because they are always trying to nickel and dime you (because they are being nickel and dimed from the client.) On the contrary, when they work for other types of clients, they feel that they are respected and therefore properly paid for their expertise.

CG is a relatively young field and perhaps has not gone through such a cycle of decay that architecture has. So as I said before: As skilled individuals we have to protect the value of our expertise. I feel this is the responsibility of everyone involved, from the rookie competing against others trying to break into the field, to the principles of CG firms negotiating compensation for their services.

...Oh I'm also switching from architecture because animating is much more fun than looking at electrical and mechanical drawings...Perhaps if I don't get a job animating, maybe there's a CG worker's union I could be a rep for?

[lwkriss13]

First, hi to all the members of this forum, because I'm new here.

Well, I'll be an architect too, a year from now (after 6 years of studying), and me too enjoy more the CG field.
But all these years are really paying off, because now I realise how much of what I've learned helps me.

Now I'm working at a gaming company, AMC (www.amc.ro) as a CG artist , and I'm happy about it, since I wanted so much to workin this field. Lucky me I haven't encountered this kind of payless opportunity, and this being my first job of this kind.

My problem is of some other matter, salary related too.
I'm in a country that just got out of comunist leadership (East Europe, you know...) and the salarys are pretty low (no matter what job you work on) including CG, that is seen more of a hobby than an industry.

I'm pretty confident that soon there will emerge a chance for me to work for other CG companies, as a foreigner, and I really don't know what kid of paying should I expect.

Can anyone give me a clue how much is paid an artist? Aproximations...

Now I work (verry well) in Lightwave, as a modeler, texturer, and animator/fx (we are a small team, so the more you know the better), photoshop, composing, concept, design, artwork etc. all of them at the highest levels of quality I can achive.

hereare some of my works too:

www.theforce.net/scifi3d/starwars/wip/dcshallways)ross)/dcshallways.html

www.theforce.net/scifi3d/starwars/wip/carbonchamber(DrJones_zoo)/carbonchamber.html

copy and paste in a new window.

and a 'this is not how a homepage should look like' page.

3cube.3dup.net/photo.html

thanks in advance...

[DiscretioN]

II am in a similar position as threedg, I am starting a 3D series, it's going to start off as a non profit thing and released on the internet but hopefully we might get some money out of it later, but the whole main idea about it is to get the "new" CG people's work out there and known, we are looking for people not necessarily with experience but with talent so we can get that talent out there, these people (including me) will most probably not get paid, but they should get recognition, and something to put in there portfolio.
if we do get money out of it we'll split it up with each person getting a percentage of the profit based on the quantity and quality of their work.

The series is called Plõrãre - The Reach Into Space, it will be a completely 3D computer generated (CG) series. It is based on a fictional future where the humans have allied with the grey and are spreading through the galaxy as our population keeps increasing. The series is based around one of the grey terraform ships lent to the humans to expand their empire, with a mission to explore the universe and find, clear and terraform new suitable planets for the human empire to expand into.

Our webpage is at http://plorare.cjb.net

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