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spiralof5
02-19-2010, 05:13 AM
Hello all,

I've been modeling off and on for years and consider myself decent. Now it's time to start learning proper technique, starting with proper face topology. My first post is my progress so far and wireframes. Feel free to save these pictures, draw on them and send them back. If you need more reference or better angles to critique, let me know as this is also the first time I had the courage to post my work online in a forum. I'm hoping that others will be able to learn by partaking in reading as well.

I was tired today and didn't get much done. For this portion I'm mainly concerned about my edgeloops from the nasal area to the mouth and down the chin. Of course, any other comments are welcome as well. I'm not so worried about the form, I'm good enough to push and pull points later. I just would like some advice as to if I've started off correctly.............

http://www.rinehart-design.com/images/6.jpg
Side view

http://www.rinehart-design.com/images/7.jpg
front wire

http://www.rinehart-design.com/images/8.jpg

http://www.rinehart-design.com/images/9.jpg
http://www.rinehart-design.com/images/10.jpg

I'm concerned about the mouth only having a few loops but as you can see, the reference has a squished nose and a small mouth. I just felt that the form looked better this way but now I'm worried that it won't animate well later.

Thanks all and I hope people pop in from time to time to check out my progress and help out a bit.

spiralof5
www.rinehart-design.com

spiralof5
02-19-2010, 11:27 PM
don't mean to bump. Is this the wrong section of the forum for this sort of thing?

ambient-whisper
02-20-2010, 12:47 AM
It's fine. I will probably get back to this thread later, but for now I just wanted to say that its fine where it is. If you want technical help then this forum is fine, or the maya forum.
If you just want asthetic help then maybe even the Wip forum would do as well.

I gotta go , but I will get back to you later.

PS: get rid of that pole on the corner of the mouth (5 edges coming together ).

spiralof5
02-21-2010, 08:26 AM
I just got done going through a lot of stuff on poles.

Helpful but I keep seeing different ways of using face loops but my reference seems different than most aesthetically pleasing faces. There isn't a pronouced nasal ridge, nose is fat on the end, underneath eyes are droopy.

Anyway, tried incorporating stuff I learned on loops today but it seemed to have a negative result.

Probably post something tomorrow. Getting rid of the pole won't be difficult. Thanks for the immediate advice.

Thanks,

spiral

ambient-whisper
02-21-2010, 08:42 AM
its hard to make a model with no poles. My models have poles all the time. What you should be concentrating early on is to make sure that there are no poles around areas that get a lot of deformation, or are exposed much. If you could tuck away poles toward the back of the face ( around the ear ) that would be perfectly ok. but around the mouth is asking for trouble during the animation phase. especially considering that your pole was right at the corner of the mouth.

camelot
02-23-2010, 11:52 AM
Smile or frown would be very difficult (or even impossible) with the missing loops around the mouth and the pole at that position. Because for that one needs a crease in the skin aside the mouth coming down from the nose.
If you model quad-only it is impossible to avoid poles since you will have loops come together or run apart at some points. But you should put them on areas where the skin is not meant to slide over bones or flesh.
And I would be careful with poles from more than five edges.

Another point is where the wings of the nose connect to the head. Normally they approach the head a little bit under an angle and seems the same with your reference. Yours are going straight to face.

The rest looks very good. :)

spiralof5
02-26-2010, 02:38 AM
Hey guys,

Thank you for the advice. I'm not going for poleless as I've been reading you can also use poles to your advantage. I also read in that subd thread suggested by an earlier thread on here that he's never even tried to animate poleless.

Having said that, I've chosen a route that seems to be true to form but I'm not sure about one or two particular placements of poles.

Since I don't want to get into the reference too much, I'm not posting anything with the reference at this time. I will say I like the way it looks.

Images

http://www.rinehart-design.com/images/12.jpg

http://www.rinehart-design.com/images/13.jpg

http://www.rinehart-design.com/11.jpghttp://www.rinehart-design.com/images/11http://www.rinehart-design.com/images/11.jpg

http://www.rinehart-design.com/images/14.jpg

Been a strange week. Switched from Maya to Blender for modeling because Maya's missing some key tools that help with correcting topology. So while I'm learning topology I'm also having to learn a new software. Good fun though, I've just pushed myself too hard this week. I even have to work on Saturday and Sunday.

http://www.rinehart-design.com/12.jpg

http://www.rinehart-design.com/13.jpg

http://www.rinehart-design.com/14.jpg

spiralof5
02-26-2010, 08:22 PM
I know this thread may seem selfish to myself but I really hope that others stepping into correct topology for the first time are able to see mistakes I'm making and the feedback from others to try and correct it. I'm not looking for an "all purpose" solution because I don't think there is one. My hopes are that many others will get involved so they can see the process and learning that I have to go through myself. I just wanted to make that clear. I feel that I have taken so much from these forums and this is my chance to contribute a bit. It also keeps me more motivated than usual. In a way, it is a bit selfish.

Psyk0
02-27-2010, 06:23 PM
I think you're on the right track. When you see a pole that's in a bad spot, just step back and think how you could make it flow better, sometimes poles can be useful if they create some "anomalies" into the mesh, like helping define the bone structure under the flesh.

So yeah, the pole on the mouth corner, i would get rid of it, keep it circular, you can fix it by adding an edge right at the mouth corner. Same for the eyes, keep the area circular. As you get further away from the main movement area, you can redirect the flow using poles.

spiralof5
03-04-2010, 05:07 AM
I think you're on the right track. When you see a pole that's in a bad spot, just step back and think how you could make it flow better, sometimes poles can be useful if they create some "anomalies" into the mesh, like helping define the bone structure under the flesh.

So yeah, the pole on the mouth corner, i would get rid of it, keep it circular, you can fix it by adding an edge right at the mouth corner. Same for the eyes, keep the area circular. As you get further away from the main movement area, you can redirect the flow using poles.

Hi, thank you so much for posting. I've been working 60 hour weeks and there has not been much time for studying. I try as hard as I can pushing it to close to 70 hour weeks with the studying but it kind of rolls over me when attempting to fix the situation.

I may be asking too much but if I keep the topology around the mouth elliptical, then I have to give up the flow from the middle nose down past the outer mouth. This will create an undesirable flow for the crease that happens when you smile? The eye as well, will change the flow of the pronounced outer-bottom edge of the eye socket. Maybe this weekend I will try to do what you suggested but I'm a little unclear as to what you mean. If you feel froggy, could you dl one of my pics and briefly outline what you mean? If not, it's cool. I'm not looking for hand holding.

The gig is up. I might as well just say that the reference is me and that my whole naked body will eventually be modeled. I have a mirror on my wall to reference anywhere that a photograph does not provide accurate information (reference photos are always off). This is being done for an artistic as well as "lack of money" reason to hire someone to take accurate photos, etc. It sounds strange but I think I'm super ugly and this is a chance to get comfortable with myself which, in my mind, is more art than modeling something beautiful (something that is missing from 3d because no one ever makes something in 3d that is ugly except for grotesquely ugly creatures). Not sure why I told everyone but oh well, it's for art.

Psyk0
03-05-2010, 07:37 PM
http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/3586/eyei.jpg
Keep the ciruclar shape going to form a portion of the cheekbone area too. Redirect the side loops towards the side of the face not the front. The edges at the corner of the eye will help define the zygomatic area of the skull and flow into the ear. Of course the loops of the eye at the front will connect to the mouth and help define the nose planes.


http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/3615/mouth.jpg
Keep the loops of the mouth circular, you shouldnt have poles in that area, i usually try to shift the direction of the flow much higher, near the cheekbone. The edges from the corner of the mouth flow into the ear.

I hope this helps a bit.

spiralof5
03-08-2010, 04:55 AM
Great! Thank you!

I'll try as you suggested. Maybe I'll do a side by side comparison in the next couple days of the before and after.

spiralof5
03-11-2010, 03:13 AM
Sorry for the long wait. I've been assigned to a few different projects that needed my immediate assistance.

I did get a chance to spend 2 days on this latest model or I should say.....models. I made what I am about to show you as a redirection of the last suggestion. Although it made sense, it did not rid me of some possibly desirable results (let me explain),

This nose is much more complex and.......well.......strange. So much so that I think it dictates the whole model. Aside from that, it is not a pleasurable face in such that the features of the face seem a lot different than those I regularly see modeled and, thus, changes the whole gamut of what is and is not acceptable in the modeling world. This is very much due to my inexperience as a proper modeler for animation. However, I did a great test to see if the most extreme pose, in my opinion (the ultra smile) could stand up against how I've modeled and, quite frankly, it does very well. The ultra smile takes a bit of tweaking but with the right love is possible. Probably not as easy as it could be. I, however, find that in all of the research I've done there hasn't been one "perfect model". I've posted this post on a few different forums and all of the suggestions I've been given have been contradicting which is utterly confusing.

There are some smoothing issues as you will see. I have two e poles on the side of the cheek and an e pole at the (nasal labial fold?) Despite these poles, it seems with a little love, I can achieve decent morph targets.

Please have a look and debate me. So far, I haven't been able to achieve a detailed nose AND keep topology flowing as I normally see. If you have any suggestions or have the time to take this image and draw a better topology please do.

http://rinehart-design.com/images/16.jpg


Thank you and I hope to keep this discussion going. I've modeled this 3 different ways, all with either similar results or with results that did not end up looking like the reference.

Thanks,

Spiral

spiralof5
03-11-2010, 03:18 AM
btw, blender for modeling is pretty amazing. 2.5 is supposed to have bmesh in the near future and I'm really excited for that. No more E poles but more n poles (limited as much as they can be) and the render will turn out fine.

I'll use blender for as much as I can. I just wish it had an advanced renderer.

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