Lighting suggestions

[ODoul]

Oh yea, I should also mention that realism is NOT my intention here. I'm planning on basic shaders for a kind of "Monsters, Inc." look. (obviously, this is kind of lifted from the movie). -- 3d_e

[An Erased One]

All I get is a "Fortune City" logo, they probably don't allow direct image linking?

[artemesia66]

so here i am on a 3 day weekend posting on your thread. :hmm: who needs a life when you can build a whole world ?

looks like a fun image.

C&C:
the arching part of the light standard looks too thin to my eye. and the way the base of the standard meets the ground is a bit odd--more like the light pole grew, than being bolted into the ground. having it look like it grew would be fine, except it's stylistically inconsistent with the sort of solid real feel of the mailbox and the hydrant (which does have bolts).

[ODoul]

Thanks! @ Erased, I've had this problem a couple of times. It looks like it's working now (at least for me). Hmmmm.

@ Artemesia66, thanks for the tips. At the time, this was the kind of stylized look I was going for but now that I look at it, you're right. I'll tweak the light to ground it better and beef up the strut.

Thanks guys!

3d_e

[Kotayus]

-- joining the non 3 dayer party...erm...party

[Iggy]

I'm jealous of ya'll's non-party party. With a young daughter it's all about what little time I can squeeze out...

I like the scene. The lighting looks a little washed out to me, but it might look better with textures. I'm only a neophyte at lighting and have no good suggestions for improvement...

[ODoul]

Thanks guys, hey Iggy, try 2 kids under the age of 5, school full time and work full time. Now THAT'S busy! And that's my life. -- 3d_e

[Iggy]

Damn 3de! I feel like I've got it rough and it's just work, wife, and one baby (21 months). I've got the bags under my eyes all the time, cuz the only time I've got for 3d and such is after everyone else is in bed. Might have to start a OT thread for dads, see how everyone copes...

[ODoul]

It's easy, I just stopped sleeping. heh heh. -- 3d_e

[ndat]

yeah I agree organic modeling is starting to drain me... this is a very nice pic simple yet detailed (I think thats an oxymoron lol). My only crit has been said before, the light looks like it could fall down at any moment.

lol @ you guys :p, man I barely sleep now if I ever have kids :surprised It will kill me. Not to mention how screwed up the kids would turn out lol, bad role model. Man I didnt realize people were that old :) lol I really feel like a young'in :).

Sounds like someone is going to have to sett up a cgtalk daycare so parents could surf without worring about the kids lol.

[ODoul]

Old? I'm not old, I just feel old sometimes. heh heh Thanks ndat, I'm modeling a new lamp post as I type this. It's going to be much better. -- 3d_e

[ODoul]

Here's an update. I've modeled new streetlights and changed the arrangement a bit. -- 3d_e

http://members.fortunecity.com/explorer2004/newstreet.jpg

[ODoul]

Well, this is a long way from being finished. It's the first test that has made me feel like I'm on the right track though. I've done MANY test renders of this and am having a hell of a time with the lighting. The textures need loads of work too but I just thought I'd post it anyway. -- 3d_e

http://members.fortunecity.com/explorer2004/street2.jpg

[ODoul]

If you are going to critique this, just remember that realism is NOT my intention. ;) -- 3d_e

[JIII]

hot momma thats sweet. looks like a few issues with the trash can tex but believe me for a NPR thats about perfect I really like it.

the tree gobo or whatever it is is a really nice touch.

[artemesia66]

lookin good 3d_e. keep going.

[AdamT]

It looks nice. My only criticism is that it's too realistic to be illustrative, too illustrative to be photoreal. If you're going for NPR, I say go for it--go wild.

[bobtronic]

I like the lighting. It looks to me like a quiet morning.
The boxes for the vegetables are a little to dirty. The
other objects are much cleaner. The shadow of the
tree is a nice idea. Is it a light gel ? I think the scene
looks a bit flat like with a teleobjective. What focal
length do you use ? All in all I really like this scene.
I could imagine some funny action in it.

cheers, Bob

[ODoul]

Thanks guys! I'm still not totally satisfied with the lighting here. It still looks too flat to me, I'll sort it out. Adam, I think with the next version, I'll take a bit of the "realism" out of it for a more illustrative look. I've changed the textures on the vegetable carts so that should help with bob's critique also.

Bob, OK, I'm going to sound like an idiot, I suppose, but I'm not familiar with the term "light gel" I've heard it mentioned but am not sure what it is, really. What I've done for the shadow is applied a material to the light that uses an image in the alpha channel that is the blurred outline of the tree. Is that a "light gel"??

I'll look in the manual when I get done here.

JIII and artemesia, I'm glad you like it!

3d_e

[ODoul]

Oh yea, Bob, the focal length of the camera is 69, As always, this thing is built all out of wack as far as scale is concerned. (typical for me). Would it help to increase of decrease the focal length??

3d_e

[ODoul]

Alright Bob, I've changed the focal length to 35 and it really has made a huge difference. The scene looks incredibly more dynamic with alot more depth. Thanks for the suggestion!! -- 3d_e

[MJV]

You need to make the sun color very slightly amber/yellow, and the ambient light blue.

[Terro]

I realy like it, though I think it could use just a pinch of blur to get that monster inc feel. Colors are good, just a bit too real lol.

[Iggy]

I like it too! Very sweet. I agree with Adam though, that it's not quite unreal enough... though that sounds pretty odd. I like the colors and the tree shadow. I think the textures are a good start. I would like to see this with a cel shaded look, just out of curiosity...

[ODoul]

Thanks all for your suggestions, especially you, Bob. I can't tell you how much more I like the camera angle and placement. I think it looks much more dynamic (at least to my eye). Of course, I forgot to change the materials on the veggie carts. I've still got lots to do here but it's much closer to the way I imagined it in my mind's eye now. Iggy, I'll do a test with cell shading on this for you. Thanks again to all.

3d_e

http://members.fortunecity.com/explorer2004/version4.jpg

[flyingP]

that really is very good 3d_e. Very nice use of colour as well.

[ODoul]

Well, I got it in my head that I wanted to add a character to this scene and there ya go. Good thing I had that head laying around. I just deformed it with the magnet tool a bit and I think it looks pretty toon-ish. I also think that it gives the scene the something that it was missing. For now, he is composited in with PS as render times are outlandish on this scene and I didn't want to wait. For the final scene, it will be rendered properly.

As always, still lots to do, he's going to have a baseball cap and a skateboard but it's late here so that will have to wait a bit. Also want to add some more details to his clothes but that will have to wait a day or two also. -- 3d_e

http://members.fortunecity.com/explorer2004/withskater.jpg

[bobtronic]

Originally posted by 3D_Explorer
...as render times are outlandish on this scene and I didn't want to wait.

How long did it render? Just curious what outlandish means :)

Bob

[ODoul]

Well, I'm kind of embarrassed to say. But what the hell, the scene alone takes about 7 hours to render. When I rendered the character with an alpha channel for compositing and pretty reduced radiosity settings, it only took a few minutes. Part of the reason it is taking so long to render is that I broke down and decided to render it with radiosity. I have the settings jacked up to reduce the artifacts which were pretty bad on the first couple test renders. There ya have it, my secret is out. -- 3d_e

[CosmicBear]

great picture! one thing i would suggest if you still want to go for the monter inc.-ish look, use colors in your shadows. add a bit of dark purple or blue to it.

[Iggy]

Wow seven hours! That is impressive. Don't reckon you'll be animating it...

It is beautiful. Really came out well. It's a shame that the recent images have lost the tops of the street lamps, as they are so pretty... But that's just minor.

[ODoul]

Thanks guys!, CosmicBear, the color in the shadows is a great idea, I'll do that for the next render. Iggy, I agree about the lamps, and actually tried to fit them in more but they lost their scale when I did. Perhaps a wider camera angle, I'll see how it looks. I'm also going to try to give the character some life, maybe riding a skateboard or something since he is boned and easily poseable. Thanks again! -- 3d_e

[AdamT]

This is shaping up really nicely! I like the saturated colors a lot. Along those lines, I'd do the same for the bins. It's like everything has these bright primary colors, but then the bins have this photo-bitmap texture. Also, how about putting something in those bins? Tomatoes and bananas?

[ODoul]

Thanks Adam! Yep, I keep meaning to do something about those bins. I think it was you who mentioned it earlier on in this thread. I was going to fill them but then the store is closed. ;) Nah, the main reason is that I havn't really figured out how to do it other than creating a bunch of different objects. Perhaps I'm just a bit lazy when it comes to that. I guess I should bite the bullet, huh? It would add alot to the scene, for sure. I guess I would just have to create the top layer since that is all that would be visible, maybe some watermellons or something big. -- 3d_e

[flyingP]

Originally posted by 3D_Explorer
maybe some watermellons or something big. -- 3d_e

Or maybe a patisson. Looks a bit like a pumkin that somebody sat on, would be rather interesting to model. Doesn't taste bad either

[JIII]

not bad maybe the little dude should look more cartoony with big eyes or something. But thats my only suggestion.

[ODoul]

This is as far as I got today. I like the carts much better now, thanks Adam. Tomorrow, I'm going to get him on that skateboard. I was really bummed when I saw that he fell right into the shadow of the lamp post. I'll probably place him in the middle of the scene for the final render. In action on the board. Thanks for all your suggestions. P, I'm not sure what that fruit you mentioned is but I put some pumpkins in there, Something in the other bin tomorrow also. -- 3d_e

http://members.fortunecity.com/explorer2004/storefront5.jpg

[modestmouse]

the mailbox looks alittle to colorful and the letters are obviously the default font

and mabey just dont even have the guy in there

[ODoul]

Thanks Mouse, maybe you're right about the mailbox being too colorful, I'm not sure though. I like it that way. The letter's aren't just the default font, I specifically picked them because of the reference I used. Also, I've spent way to much time on the character to not use him. I appreciate your feedback though. Thanks! -- 3d_e

[flyingP]

I'm not so sure if It's such a problem that he's fallen a bit into the sadow, still looks quite natural I feel.
Just how poseable is the figure though?, turn his head a bit (maybe his cap on backwrads as well?), lift one of his legs a bit etc he just looks a bit rigid at the moment, or yeah have him doing something cool on the skateboard.
The pumkins look great BTW.

Cheers

[ODoul]

Oh yea, this is just a test render to see how he looks in these conditions. I've already posed him and am rendering a new scene as I type this. Thanks! BTW, he is fully boned, right down to his hands. :) :) -- 3d_e

[flyingP]

look forward to seeing the next render then.

Cheers

[ODoul]

Thanks P, just because he is boned doesn't mean that I'm any good at posing him. heh heh :scream: Actually, the pose that I've done really isn't that great. Don't have your hopes too high. I'm still a newbie and I never had poser so ....... Anyway, here's a test I did of the pose.

http://members.fortunecity.com/explorer2004/onboard.jpg

3d_e

[flyingP]

Originally posted by 3D_Explorer
I never had poser.

"That" may even be an advantage.
I'd bend his knees a bit more.

[Martin Kay]

Hi 3D, the problem here is overlighting. If the shadowas are that sharp then it stands to reason its quite a bright day... so the shadows would be darker, especially under that awning and also that tree shadow, which is great, but it needs to be darker. I don't know if you still have five lights blazing, but for me that's far too many. Keep it simple, especially on a simple outdoor scene. I find that radiosity users often tend to over blow the lighting ratio too much with the consequential over filling in of shadow areas which really should be much more dense. If I was doing a sunlight scene I would personally like to alweays have some areas of shadow virtually jetblack- ie a full tonal range, like in black and white 'hand' photographic printing.

[ODoul]

Thank you Martin. I will heed your advice and reduce the fill. But, it would be wise to remember that this is not intended to be a photographic render, I think that it is always a good idea to keep the basic principals of lighting and form in mind no matter what your objective but it is also OK to bend the rules a bit with this kind of thing. Just my thoughts and what do I know, I'm not an art major. This is purely just a hobby for me. Something I do for fun. Thanks for the advice though. -- 3d_e

[JIII]

beend the knees more and have the figure itself bend over more too.

he looks like he is leaning into a turn right about now, Which would be fine for an animation however I don't think this will be one anytime soon sadly. Not with five hours a frame.

[flyingP]

Originally posted by 3D_Explorer
Thank you Martin. I will heed your advice and reduce the fill. But, it would be wise to remember that this is not intended to be a photographic render, I think that it is always a good idea to keep the basic principals of lighting and form in mind no matter what your objective but it is also OK to bend the rules a bit with this kind of thing. Just my thoughts and what do I know, I'm not an art major. This is purely just a hobby for me. Something I do for fun. Thanks for the advice though. -- 3d_e

Damn I know I am going to get into trouble commenting on this sort of stuff.
All the same I generally believe there is only one real rule to follow, and that is that the image "works" in the end. Actually I was having a similar discussion with a couple of colleagues this week, too many people get caught up in to many fine details and tend to end up forgetting to look at the picture as a "whole" (with consequences). It is quite legitimate to break the rules if it's helping an image, that being said though it helps to "know" the rules (at least halfway) so that you've got a reasonable idea of how/and why to break them. Does that make any sense?

[ODoul]

P, I don't see where you'll get into trouble with a comment like that. I think you are absolutely right. But like I said, I'm not an art major, I only know what I like. On that note, do you think the lighting is working? I would be curious to hear another opinion. Thanks! -- 3d_e

[flyingP]

heh heh, yeah don't mind me I was just having a rant... happens :D.
Personally I don't have a problem with lighting, overall I feel the whole picture has a rather nice warm feel to it, and you've done a nice job with the use of complementary colours (which can be risky). The only thing that is bothering me is that static pose of the figure, it lets the scene down at the moment, but good you were planning to fix that anyway.

Cheers

[ODoul]

Yea, I've taken JIII's advice and yours and changed the pose a bit. I'm rendering it now and then I'm going to call this one quits. It's time to do something else. I've had a hankering to do a car so maybe that will be my next project. Thanks for everyone's help! -- 3d_e

[Martin Kay]

Well ultra realism or not I think it's irrelevant to the important effect convincing lighting will have. Just look at say 'A bugs life'. Not 'realism... but 'real' still in many ways, especially with some of the lighting which was breathtaking. (I think)
I still think you need to keep the lighting simple and 'dramatic', as lighting contributes so much to the atmosphere of a scene. Think of some of those old Disney cartoons, like fantasia, which had quite realistic lighting even though it was 'cartoon'.
Its worth a try!:)

[Martin Kay]

My my 3D-E you are a busy bee! I started out on a 'new' car a couple of weeks ago and its a long job as I intend doing a full interior and probably an opening door. The interior which is relatively easy to do is a welcome occaisional relief from plotting and positioning body panels/ lines on a very complex body etc. Must get it out of my system though.

[flyingP]

Not sure if dramatic lighting would help here Martin, there is a lot of detail in the scence if you bump up the contast it may just look a bit "busy" or inconsistent in my opinion, and it's a quiet scene why use more dramatic lighting?.
Heh heh, and don't tell me you were only concentrating on the quality of the lighting in "a bug life", personally I spent most of the film just laughing my arse off, although not as much as by Shrek.

Cheers.

[Peoples]

Hey - looking very nice! I like your style. The lightning is maybe a bit too "overall" - maybe a bit more contrast in the shadows. But - overall its coming along nicely:thumbsup:

[ODoul]

Hey, thanks guys. Martin, busy doesn't even begin to describe my schedule. I'm carrying a full class load and juggling a full time job and kids among other things. Feels like I'm burning the candle at both ends alot of the time but I really enjoy playing on my computer so I get an immense amount of satisfaction from it. It keeps me sane. I have decreased the fill like just a bit for this final render. We'll see how it looks in about 8 hours. :scream: -- 3d_e

[Martin Kay]

Not more dramatic, but more realistic lighting 'flyingP' The lighting looks insipid at the moment. Sorry 3d.:)
As for Bugs Life, I have the dvd and have watched it many times
and admired the technical side more than been intetrested in the 'story' Not saying it wasn't a good story though... I think lighting is fundamental to any art, 2d or 3d, realism or not. Light defines form and mood. End of lecture!:)

[ODoul]

It's alright Martin. I've had my renderings called worse things. I'm a good sport and I can take just about anything anyone throws my way. -- 3d_e

[flyingP]

Originally posted by Martin Kay

As for Bugs Life, I have the dvd and have watched it many times
and admired the technical side more than been intetrested in the 'story' Not saying it wasn't a good story though... I think lighting is fundamental to any art, 2d or 3d, realism or not. Light defines form and mood. End of lecture!:)

Come on Martin art is there to be aprreciated not dissected. Damn at some stage Martin I can see we are going to have to sit down with a bottle of red wine and a couple of daggers and then talk art, could be interesting :beer: all the same lets wait for the next render from 3d_e and not spoil his thread.

Cheers.

[Martin Kay]

Hey 3D, nothing personal, I like what you are doing here a lot!
A lot of your stuff is extremely refreshing to see-a rare thing indeed!
I suppose I do have a bee in my bonnet about lighting, having been a photographer and printer for very many years, (nearly 40 yrs...)
And FlyingP... er yes I'll go for that bottle of red wine... or two...!
Or a Stella...

[flyingP]

Originally posted by Martin Kay

And FlyingP... er yes I'll go for that bottle of red wine... or two...!
Or a Stella...

Stella, no, I'll have to introduce you to a "Jever".

[ODoul]

No offense taken, Martin. I've seen you're renders and you obviously know a thing or two. That last ratto inspired one was nothing short of brilliant. IMO. Now, let's talk beer. I'll have a stella too. Although, being American, I generally prefer my beer a little more watered down. And P, you Germans can make a mean brew too. Had the worst hangover of my live after a night of drinking assorted German beers at some dive in the Quarter. -- 3d_e

[Martin Kay]

Ok, guys, lets get a bit pie eyed...:beer: lol. Unfortunately after a couple of bottles I have to sleep it off and that stops production...

[flyingP]

First of all 3d-e I'm a kiwi not german, I just live an work in Germany (although a lot of the guys here are damn good mates, if I may add), where I do have to admit they know how to make a damn good beer :beer: , and I thought American beer "was" water, no offence but it really is not good.

[ODoul]

Heh heh, all a matter of taste, P, although I'm sure most non-americans would agree with you. -- 3d_e

[flyingP]

mmmm... maybe it's time someone started a name your favorite beer thread.:drool:

[AdamT]

As an American I agree that most American beer tastes like water. But! There are hundreds of smaller breweries here that actually do make beer worth drinking. My favorite is Abita's Purple Haze--a lovely raspberry wheat brew. Hard to find it outside of New Orleans though.

[flyingP]

Ok, that I admit sounds interesting, although it almost sounds a bit sweet.

[AdamT]

Originally posted by flyingP
Ok, that I admit sounds interesting, although it almost sounds a bit sweet.
Actually what I love about it is that it isn't very sweet--unlike just about every other cherry/raspberry beer I've tasted.

[flyingP]

At any rate it's better than having bits of lime, lemon or what ever floating around it I suppose. Actually I quite miss one or two of the New Zealnd beers the was one called "Red Band" (if I remember correctly) that I quite liked although I'm not sure if it took off, it was a little bit darker than the usual NZ largers.

And then of course there is Guiness.

[ODoul]

Ah yes, Abita's Brewery & Brew Pub. Been there many times. I live in New Orleans, BTW.

[modestmouse]

this is pretty funny, mabey you should just make 3D beer :beer:

[bobtronic]

I like Guiness and the good czech beer.

cheers, Bob

[flyingP]

Originally posted by bobtronic
and the good czech beer.


Urquell? (don't think I spelt that right)

[bobtronic]

Originally posted by flyingP
Urquell? (don't think I spelt that right)

You spelt it right but almost every third beer is called
Urquell here in Germany (Urquell is meaning the ancient
base spring of the water for the beer). I like Staropramen
from Prague.

Bob

[flyingP]

Originally posted by bobtronic
I like Staropramen
from Prague.

Bob

Don't know that one, may just have a look the next time I'm in the drink store though.
3d_e really should update this thread with a new render before things really get off track here, although it is interesting.

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